UCLA Police Taser Student For Not Showing ID

This video is just plain sickening. It is clear Amerikan torture. To no surprise, he had an Arabic name. I bet Bong and Psycho will have a field day with this one!

The Land of the Free huh....what a joke! AMERIKA IS A BIG FUCKING JOKE!

AMERIKA...THE WHORE OF BABYLON!!!!

Wheres an American flag when you need to burn one??!! :thumbsup:

Somebody buy me a ticket to Canada or France PLEASE!!!!!! I can't stand the infidel stench of Amerikans.
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http://www.infowars.com/articles/ps/..._for_no_id.htm

Comment: This is like something out of a horror movie, you can hear the guy screaming and begging not to be tortured as they repeatedly hit him with the Taser shot. Tortured for not showing ID in America, this is what "serve and protect" has come to mean.

LOS ANGELES -- A cell phone captured video of a 23-year-old student being administered multiple Taser shocks by UCLA police on Tuesday.

The UCLA student was hit with the Taser shocks multiple times while he was in the Powell Library Computer Lab.

Another student recorded the incident on a camera phone. On the video, Mostafa Tabatabainejad can be heard screaming during the incident, which took place at about 11:30 p.m., the Daily Bruin reported.

According to the paper, Tabatabainejad did not show ID to community service officers who were conducting a random check. UCLA police said Tabatabainejad was released by police after he was cited for obstruction/delay of a peace officer in the performance of duty.

The Daily Bruin reported that Tabatabainejad complained when an officer was escorting him from the lab and put his hand on one of Tabatabainejad's arms. He allegedly yelled, "Get off of me," according to the paper. He was then shot with the Taser, reported the paper.

The Daily Bruin reported that after he was hit, Tabatabainejad yelled, "Here's your Patriot Act, here's your f---ing abuse of power."

Police said they thought Tabatabainejad was not harmed in the incident.

"If he was able to walk out of here, I think he was OK," the sergeant said.

Horrific...if this went down how it appears...that is the type of behavior that I thought we were fighting a war to end. Fucking Bullocks.

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Originally Posted by KiEfBoyjBm

Horrific...if this went down how it appears...that is the type of behavior that I thought we were fighting a war to end. Fucking Bullocks.

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You need to understand history my friend. Go back to Feb 27th 1933 when the Weimar Republic existed in Germany. An event known as the Reichstag Fire happened. The Nazis themselves did it, but it was blamed on a communist named Marinus van der Lubbe and so the communists were all arrested and banned from politics. Hitler than made President Hindenburg invoke Article 48 of the Constitution to suspend civil liberties in the name of security. Hitler soon passed the Enabling Act which was similar to Amerika's Patriot Act again suspending liberty in the name of security.

9/11 was simply another Reichstag Fire used by the Elite to bring about total tyranny. There were absolutely no Muslims on hijacked planes. That was the official crapola propaganda story they went with to cam down the world's throat. But they knew there would be some who knew the truth and that they would rise up against them eventually with Divine assistance. I suggest you read up on December 21st 2012 when we will go into the higher dimensions. Only 6 more years left!

Indeed, torture is fundamental in a fascist nation. This video is the absolute proof we need.

When the next staged attack occurs....I may just kill myself.

[quote=Great Spirit]This video is just plain sickening. It is clear Amerikan torture. To no surprise, he had an Arabic name. I bet Bong and Psycho will have a field day with this one!

The Land of the Free huh....what a joke! AMERIKA IS A BIG FUCKING JOKE!

AMERIKA...THE WHORE OF BABYLON!!!!

Wheres an American flag when you need to burn one??!! :thumbsup:

Somebody buy me a ticket to Canada or France PLEASE!!!!!! I can't stand the infidel stench of Amerikans.
QUOTE]


Ill put my money where my mouth is........

Denounce your citizenship......and move. If any place will take you...Canada wont. You find a place GS that will take you ill ship your ass there.... you pay for your stuff ill pay for you....,.

GET THE FUCK OUT...cancer boy.

[quote=Bong30]

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Great Spirit

This video is just plain sickening. It is clear Amerikan torture. To no surprise, he had an Arabic name. I bet Bong and Psycho will have a field day with this one!

The Land of the Free huh....what a joke! AMERIKA IS A BIG FUCKING JOKE!

AMERIKA...THE WHORE OF BABYLON!!!!

Wheres an American flag when you need to burn one??!! :thumbsup:

Somebody buy me a ticket to Canada or France PLEASE!!!!!! I can't stand the infidel stench of Amerikans.
QUOTE]


Ill put my money where my mouth is........

Denounce your citizenship......and move. If any place will take you...Canada wont. You find a place GS that will take you ill ship your ass there.... you pay for your stuff ill pay for you....,.

GET THE FUCK OUT...cancer boy.

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Don't mind if I do!! :dance: :thumbsup:

Amerika's madness must stop. You are the problem Bong.

Thank God! I hope those officers get fired and thrown in prison!

Let it be known that if our law enforcement continues to harass and intimidate minorities, they will pay the price.
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http://www.infowars.com/articles/ps/...plans_suit.htm

The UCLA student stunned with a Taser by a campus police officer has hired a high-profile civil rights lawyer who plans to file a brutality lawsuit.

The videotaped incident, which occurred after the student refused requests to show his ID card to campus officers, triggered widespread debate on and off campus Thursday about whether use of the Taser was warranted. It was the third in a recent series of local incidents captured on video that raise questions about arrest tactics.

Attorney Stephen Yagman said he plans to file a federal civil rights lawsuit accusing the UCLA police of "brutal excessive force," as well as false arrest. The lawyer also provided the first public account of the Tuesday night incident at UCLA's Powell Library from the student, Mostafa Tabatabainejad, a 23-year-old senior.

He said that Tabatabainejad, when asked for his ID after 11 p.m. Tuesday, declined because he thought he was being singled out because of his Middle Eastern appearance. Yagman said Tabatabainejad is of Iranian descent but is a U.S.-born resident of Los Angeles.

The lawyer said Tabatabainejad eventually decided to leave the library but when an officer refused the student's request to take his hand off him, the student fell limp to the floor, again to avoid participating in what he considered a case of racial profiling. After police started firing the Taser, Tabatabainejad tried to "get the beating, the use of brutal force, to stop by shouting and causing people to watch. Generally, police don't want to do their dirties in front of a lot of witnesses."

He said Tabatabainejad was hit by the Taser five times and suffered "moderate to severe contusions" on his right side.

UCLA officials declined to respond directly to Yagman's statements, saying they still were conducting their internal investigation of the incident.

The university said earlier, however, that Tabatabainejad was asked for his ID as part of a routine nightly procedure to make sure that everyone using the library after 11 p.m. is a student or otherwise authorized to be there. Campus officials have said the long-standing policy was adopted to ensure students' safety.

UCLA also said that Tabatabainejad refused repeated requests by a community service officer and regular campus police to provide identification or to leave. UCLA said the police decided to use the Taser to incapacitate Tabatabainejad only after the student urged other library patrons to join his resistance.

Some witnesses disputed that account, saying that when campus police arrived, Tabatabainejad had begun to walk toward the door.

In a prepared statement released late Thursday, UCLA's interim chancellor, Norman Abrams, urged the public to "withhold judgment" while the campus police department investigates. "I, too, have watched the videos, and I do not believe that one can make a fair judgment regarding the matter from the videos alone. I am encouraged that a number of witnesses have come forward and are participating in the investigation."

Meanwhile, student activists were organizing a midday rally today to protest the incident, and the Southern California office of the Council on American-Islamic Relations called for an independent investigation.

The incident follows the recent announcement that four of the campus police department's nearly 60 full-time sworn officers had won so-called Taser Awards granted by the manufacturer of the device to "law enforcement officers who save a life in the line of duty through extraordinary use of the Taser." The award stemmed from an incident in which officers subdued a patient who allegedly threatened staff at the campus' Neuropsychiatric Hospital with metal scissors.

Jeff Young, assistant police chief, declined to indicate whether any of the honored officers were among the several involved in Tuesday's incident.

I merged YOUR THREADS since it was the SAME STORY.

ABSOLUTELY SHOCKING!!!:D

Have a good one!:thumbsup:

It's easy to bash the police in this incident but we don't really know the full story. Did the police abuse their power? Maybe, probably. But the guy obviously had an agenda and did refuse to show his id, then resisted being escorted out. It's not like the cops just walked in and started tasering an innocent person for the fun of it.

Everytime someone gets tasered, and it's caught on video, the folks at prison planet get an instant hard on. My guess is that in most, but certainly not all, cases the guy(or girl) deserves it. Look at this case, lets break it down:

- Campus officers were conducting a random check of id's, standard policy after 11:00pm

-This guy refuses to show id (mistake #1)

- The guy starts mouthing off about being profiled (mistake #2)

- Police escort him out, fully within their rights to do so.

-The guy resists by falling limp to the floor (mistake #3, the straw that broke the camels back)

-At this point the police have a few choices
1. shoot the fucker- bad publicity
2. Kick the fucker in the head- more bad publicity but would have been
my choice.
3. Wrestle with the guy, also likely to get accused of police brutality and possible getting hurt themselves
4. Taser the piece of shit

Looks like #4 was the best option

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Originally Posted by Fengzi

-This guy refuses to show id (mistake #1)

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You are never required to show ID, a common misperception. Yes, it's nice to show your ID as common courtesy, but if you don't want to, you can go down to the station with them. perfectly legal.

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The guy starts mouthing off about being profiled (mistake #2)

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I wouldn't call it a mistake, I'd call it a right.

Quote:

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- Police escort him out, fully within their rights to do so.

-The guy resists by falling limp to the floor (mistake #3, the straw that broke the camels back)

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Yep, peaceful resistance 101. Ever watch hippies protect trees? Guess what happens to them. Hint: *They don't get tased*

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At this point the police have a few choices
1. shoot the fucker- bad publicity
2. Kick the fucker in the head- more bad publicity but would have been
my choice.
3. Wrestle with the guy, also likely to get accused of police brutality and possible getting hurt themselves
4. Taser the piece of shit

Looks like #4 was the best option

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Or.. or.. or... call for back up and carry him to a police car as he is not being a threat to the officers. Shoot him? Shut up.

Yes we don't know what happened, but it could just be both sides were being dicks and only one side paid for it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hardcore Newbie

You are never required to show ID, a common misperception. Yes, it's nice to show your ID as common courtesy, but if you don't want to, you can go down to the station with them. perfectly legal.

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This wasn't a case of someone just walkng down the road and a cop asking to see his drivers license. The guy was on private property and those in charge of enforcing the rules of that property, the campus police, asked for his id as a requirement for being in the library. His choice was to show it to them or leave. It seems he didn't want to do either.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hardcore Newbie

I wouldn't call it a mistake, I'd call it a right..

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I've had my share of run-ins with the police and as I've grown older I found that excercising this right isn't always the best option. Kind of like pouring gas on fire.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hardcore Newbie

Yep, peaceful resistance 101. Ever watch hippies protect trees? Guess what happens to them. Hint: *They don't get tased*..

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Well, what happens to them has a lot to do with how redneck the local sheriff is. Some of those boys don't go for new fangled contraptions like a taser. They like to do things the old fashion way ;) Trust me, not every tree hugging hippie is fortunate enough to have a news crew documenting everything the police do.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hardcore Newbie

Or.. or.. or... call for back up and carry him to a police car as he is not being a threat to the officers. Shoot him? Shut up.

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Or...or...or...just let him do what he wants, maybe bring him a coke and a bouquet of flowers. Maybe bring him a pair of slippers and give him a massage. Please, give me a break. The LAPD has a lot more important things to do than coddle to the whims of some jackass who wants to start some shit..

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hardcore Newbie

Yes we don't know what happened, but it could just be both sides were being dicks and only one side paid for it.

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Could be, I won't argue this point at all. But the the sad fact is, when it comes down to a situation like this, it's usually not the cops who pay for it. The best way to deal with a cop is always "yes sir, no sir" be polite and do what they tell you to. Unless you want to be a PrisonPlanet headline, that is. Don't forget, their job basically guaruntees that they deal with scum for a good portion of their day. The last thing they want to deal with is some jackass who wants to start an argument.

The bottom line is that if the guy had just shown his student id, or even said something like "I believe your only asking me because I'm Middle Eastern so I won't show you, but I will leave", it wouldn't have happened. But he didn't. He decided to start shit and he paid the price. Did the police go too far? Probably. But remember, it was his actions that got him tased. As the saying goes "If ya can't stand the heat stay out of the kitchen"

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fengzi

This wasn't a case of someone just walkng down the road and a cop asking to see his drivers license. The guy was on private property and those in charge of enforcing the rules of that property, the campus police, asked for his id as a requirement for being in the library. His choice was to show it to them or leave. It seems he didn't want to do either.

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Actually in another video (I wish I bookmarked it, same incident, much better camera angle, picked up just after the first tasing) the conversation went something to the tune of

"We said for you to show us your ID or leave"
"I was in the middle of leaving nd you stopped me"

How acurate this is, i'm not sure, but it seems pretty genuine, as it seems thru the rest of the video that the officers are just itching to tase the guy as much as they can.

Quote:

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I've had my share of run-ins with the police and as I've grown older I found that excercising this right isn't always the best option. Kind of like pouring gas on fire.

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Agreed, but he still has teh right to voice his opinion without getting brutalized, imho anyways.

Quote:

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Well, what happens to them has a lot to do with how redneck the local sheriff is. Some of those boys don't go for new fangled contraptions like a taser. They like to do things the old fashion way ;) Trust me, not every tree hugging hippie is fortunate enough to have a news crew documenting everything the police do.

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Unfortunately not. There will always be police that can abuse their power because.. well, they can. Does it make it right?

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Or...or...or...just let him do what he wants, maybe bring him a coke and a bouquet of flowers. Maybe bring him a pair of slippers and give him a massage. Please, give me a break. The LAPD has a lot more important things to do than coddle to the whims of some jackass who wants to start some shit..

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But they have all the time in the world to tase someone because "he won't get up from being tased"? I know, anytime someone doesn't feel like dealing with bullshit cops, they should be tased, it's a real time saver! then they can go after the real evils of society like marijuana smokers :P

Quote:

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Could be, I won't argue this point at all. But the the sad fact is, when it comes down to a situation like this, it's usually not the cops who pay for it. The best way to deal with a cop is always "yes sir, no sir" be polite and do what they tell you to. Unless you want to be a PrisonPlanet headline, that is. Don't forget, their job basically guaruntees that they deal with scum for a good portion of their day. The last thing they want to deal with is some jackass who wants to start an argument.

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This is the worst part about being in a position of power, how to take crap properly from one instance and not let it affect the next. The proper way to stop an arguement is not to tase people. I don't think it happens very often in such an extreme way, I'm sure a lot of cops abuse their power, but not to this extent. There are relatively few videos of this nature, so that tells me it's not happening with witnesses daily, and out of a nation of 300 mil, that's not bad I guess.

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The bottom line is that if the guy had just shown his student id, or even said something like "I believe your only asking me because I'm Middle Eastern so I won't show you, but I will leave", it wouldn't have happened. But he didn't. He decided to start shit and he paid the price. Did the police go too far? Probably. But remember, it was his actions that got him tased. As the saying goes "If ya can't stand the heat stay out of the kitchen"

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But that's could've been what did happen, by the comments on the video. But no matter what happened beforehand, the only way those officers should be tasing people is if that guy was a physical threat and was showing intent of physical harm.

My roommate and i were disussing this today, actually. What is a citizen allowed to do in an instance where the police are breaking the law? I truely don't know, and wish I knew where to start. I was joking around saying that I'd strip down to my skimpies and state "I have no deadly weapons, I'm unarmed, but wh you're doing is wrong, and now I'm defending myself" haha

I couldn't make heads nor tails of the video but my guess is Fengi is right and the asshole probably had it coming. But I still like to see the fuzz get their feet raked over the coals for all the back alley nightstick workovers where some poor bastard didn't have it coming.

Believe it or not, the days of police states aren't exactly over and it's imperative that we keep our cops on a short leash. Never forget that they're supposed to be working for us....and we have to make sure they never forget it.

police were wel within their right. he wasnt following police orders...so he got his ass shocked..No story here cept for you tinfoil hat folks who want to make it one. People get tazed everyday, thx to NonLethal Methods of getting a suspect to obey you, this guy is alive, and not in a hospital for a beating or a gunshot wound. You say hes gona sue the police, he probably will just so the lawyer can get some Tv time, but he wont get anything. Police use non lethal methods all the time to detain suspects..or to disperse crowds..just look at Rioters...if police were sued for everytime a person was hit with a pepperball or gas...they wouldnt use these methods..but the methods used have been oked in court...so nothing is gona happen

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Myth1184

police were wel within their right. he wasnt following police orders...so he got his ass shocked..No story here cept for you tinfoil hat folks who want to make it one. People get tazed everyday, thx to NonLethal Methods of getting a suspect to obey you, this guy is alive, and not in a hospital for a beating or a gunshot wound. You say hes gona sue the police, he probably will just so the lawyer can get some Tv time, but he wont get anything. Police use non lethal methods all the time to detain suspects..or to disperse crowds..just look at Rioters...if police were sued for everytime a person was hit with a pepperball or gas...they wouldnt use these methods..but the methods used have been oked in court...so nothing is gona happen

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Lol you sound like a fascist Myth!! lol :dance:

Not surprised AT ALL that you would defend the police.

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Originally Posted by Great Spirit

Lol you sound like a fascist Myth!! lol :dance:

Not surprised AT ALL that you would defend the police.

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Anyone who doesn't agree with your twisted view of the American govt is a fascist. The shits getting old GS, excuse me, I mean Mostafa. Time to change your tune.

What I've noticed in this type of thread is that those who defend the police are typically the older (25+) members. Most likely because we were once "the asshole who got what they deserved" . This type of thing just reminds us how stupid we were.

Well, call me foolish but I find this whole taser thing absolutely SHOCKING!

Have a good one!:thumbsup:

This happens more often and often ends in a much more brutal possibly fatal way in allot of Muslim countries. We all have our own struggles against our own governments. No one is perfect, iv been to and lived in many different countries and have seen for my self. Id rather live in the states than most other countries...the ideals my country was founded on are still there and protect me to this day. These are the ideals that make my country great.

There is tons of corruption in the government and things get all twisted around but then again look at other countries and their levels of corruption. If I had my way Ben Franklin would be president, his ideals are the real America. I despise most organized religions but have nothing against the people who blindly follow...GS your religion is by far the most brainwashing one, you should kill your self only to be very disappointed that your not going anywhere after you die. Too bad you can't think on your own.

Damn it....debate with me. It's pretty clear that's your main reason for posting.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hardcore Newbie

Actually in another video (I wish I bookmarked it, same incident, much better camera angle, picked up just after the first tasing) the conversation went something to the tune of

"We said for you to show us your ID or leave"
"I was in the middle of leaving nd you stopped me"

How acurate this is, i'm not sure, but it seems pretty genuine, as it seems thru the rest of the video that the officers are just itching to tase the guy as much as they can.

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Except when you watch the rather low quality video from the before the first tase, the guy is clearly and loudly declaring his intentions to go nowhere.
I've had my own run in's with cops and simply my own experience tells me that the best way to deal with them, is calmly. If you feel your rights are being violated, you tell them. But if you resist there can be consequences, and only an idiot wouldn't be prepared to face them.
It doesn't help anyone, most especially actual victims, of actual police brutality, when people like this try to make martyrs of themselves. I'll admit, even I was itching to tase the guy once by the end of it all.

In fact, it never helps anyone when people try to make martyrs of themselves in general.
..

GS, could you stick to talking about other dimensions? Some of the other liberals and myself have been talking and we think that having you as such a vocal proponent of the left is... well, not good. We think you're kinda nuts too, and you're basically just blood in the water for equally insane characters like Bong30.
..

Psycho - Tasers=shocking. We get it.

Yes Poly......I am Insane. Dont forget it. Just remember....I vote, and raise Kids Just like me.......More Neocons for the world.

Buhahhh buhahahahahah........


You and the other Liberals were talking HUh.....

were you taling about voter fraud? was none this time or last... huummmmm?

How about your leftwing Socialist dingbat nancy?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Polymirize

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GS, ...... you're basically just blood in the water for equally insane characters like Bong30.

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Ya gotta admit Bong, he does have a pretty valid point. Nothing like a GS(oops, I mean Mostafa :rolleyes: ) post to get the blood boiling. And, we all know you're the Crazy Neocon. Don't feel bad, embrace your insanity as I have. After all, "Fengzi" just means crazy person in Chinese.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fengzi

Ya gotta admit Bong, he does have a pretty valid point. Nothing like a GS(oops, I mean Mostafa :rolleyes: ) post to get the blood boiling. And, we all know you're the Crazy Neocon. Don't feel bad, embrace your insanity as I have. After all, "Fengzi" just means crazy person in Chinese.

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If he would......spell America with a "C" just once.....I would hold out hope for him.

I have 2 kids...i had 2 kids in Diapers at the same time......I am certifiable nuts.... You would have to be.

I just dont understand....How, (ie Gs, Pissy, Eg, you know the cast of characters....) can hate America so much?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bong30

I just dont understand....How, (ie Gs, Pissy, Eg, you know the cast of characters....) can hate America so much?

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I'd hate to speak for everyone, especially because when you throw that wide a net out (and hook people like gs) the issue becomes a little more mirky...

So let me explain a basic perspective on the matter instead. It's a common neo-con myth that liberals hate the US. This is false. Most liberals love the US. We think it's an amazing example of what is possible with respect to insuring human rights and freedoms. Perhaps even the best example in the world today. However, simply being the best example isn't a reason to stop progress. And in the spirit of our constitutional values that all men (and women we should think) are created equal, with certain intrinsic rights and priviledges, these values should extend beyond our prejudges and even beyond our borders to the way that we as a nation interact with the rest of the world.

If slavery was wrong, then why isn't it wrong to make economic slaves out of factory working children in indonesia? Simply because we don't think of it that way?

One example. I've got more if you like.

I dont care about slavery issues in indonesia....tell them to start a Union.

We did......now the illegal imagration is fucking that all up HUH?

Yes slavery of kids is bad, so we deal with that with diplomacy...seams easy.

are those Islamic states you are talking about? Hummmmmm?

I dont see slaves (esp kids) in many democraticly elected countries? Hummmmm?


Please inlighten me......

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Originally Posted by Polymirize

I'd hate to speak for everyone, especially because when you throw that wide a net out (and hook people like gs) the issue becomes a little more mirky...

So let me explain a basic perspective on the matter instead. It's a common neo-con myth that liberals hate the US. This is false. Most liberals love the US. We think it's an amazing example of what is possible with respect to insuring human rights and freedoms. Perhaps even the best example in the world today. However, simply being the best example isn't a reason to stop progress. And in the spirit of our constitutional values that all men (and women we should think) are created equal, with certain intrinsic rights and priviledges, these values should extend beyond our prejudges and even beyond our borders to the way that we as a nation interact with the rest of the world.
If slavery was wrong, then why isn't it wrong to make economic slaves out of factory working children in indonesia? Simply because we don't think of it that way?

One example. I've got more if you like.

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Bong may not agree with me Poly, but I don't throw you in the same group as GS, and Pissy. You may be a bit farther left of the middle than I am, but you don't seem to suffer from the delusions that some of ther others do. Unfortunately, it's folks like GS and Pissy who give the liberals a bad name. As in most groups, the most outspoken members of the group tend to be the most extreme. So, it's no wonder someone like Bong would simply group anyone that is left leaning with them. Just as anyone left leaning would assume all conservatives are like Bong. My personal belief is to walk with one foot on each side of the line and let common sense dictate which direction you should take for any given issue. Most people's insistance on staying on one side or the other causes way too many problems.


Your example of children working in places like Indonesia is a perfect example. My personal belief is that folks on the far left are actually making the situation worse for the children. I didn't just pull this out of my ass, this comes from having degrees in both International Business and East Asian studies. It is also an opinion held by many very knowledgable people. It's been over 10 years since I got out of school so I honestly don't remember the names of any specific references, but if you go to any college library and hunt around a bit you'll find some.

You see, the sad fact is that in some countries children must work. Yes, it would be wonderful if this wasn't the reality, and that they could all go to school and eventually become Harvard scholars, but that is just a dream. The families need the children to work so they will. It is not a situation where if the factory didn't exist they'd be in cute little uniforms at the local school. If the factory didn't exist they'd be working out in the fields with the heat, sun, and poisonous snakes(lots of them). Or in many cases prostituting themselves on the street. This is not an exageration, this is reality.

So, "how is the situation made worse by the folks on the far left?", you may ask. Because they are delusional and can't see reality. A big company like Nike, for eaxample, could set up a program where kids work in a factory for part of the day and go to a factory school part of the day. They could manage it in a way that would meet all of the families needs. Instead, the folks on the far left have demonized child labor to the point where no major company will touch it. Even though something like that would be extremely beneficial, if Nike were to set something like that up it woould be a public relations disaster. So, instead of working in a factory where things could be controlled they work in factories run by unscrupulous people who don't give a damn about the kids.

Of course, big corporations could just decide to feed and cloth all the worlds poor. A solution usually favored by my neighbors up in Berzerkely :rolleyes: But let's face it, there's a better chance Santa Claus will solve the problem.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fengzi

....Your example of children working in places like Indonesia is a perfect example. My personal belief is that folks on the far left are actually making the situation worse for the children. I didn't just pull this out of my ass, this comes from having degrees in both International Business and East Asian studies. It is also an opinion held by many very knowledgable people. It's been over 10 years since I got out of school so I honestly don't remember the names of any specific references, but if you go to any college library and hunt around a bit you'll find some.

You see, the sad fact is that in some countries children must work. Yes, it would be wonderful if this wasn't the reality, and that they could all go to school and eventually become Harvard scholars, but that is just a dream. The families need the children to work so they will. It is not a situation where if the factory didn't exist they'd be in cute little uniforms at the local school. If the factory didn't exist they'd be working out in the fields with the heat, sun, and poisonous snakes(lots of them). Or in many cases prostituting themselves on the street. This is not an exageration, this is reality.

So, "how is the situation made worse by the folks on the far left?", you may ask. Because they are delusional and can't see reality. A big company like Nike, for eaxample, could set up a program where kids work in a factory for part of the day and go to a factory school part of the day. They could manage it in a way that would meet all of the families needs. Instead, the folks on the far left have demonized child labor to the point where no major company will touch it. Even though something like that would be extremely beneficial, if Nike were to set something like that up it woould be a public relations disaster. So, instead of working in a factory where things could be controlled they work in factories run by unscrupulous people who don't give a damn about the kids.

Of course, big corporations could just decide to feed and cloth all the worlds poor. A solution usually favored by my neighbors up in Berzerkely :rolleyes: But let's face it, there's a better chance Santa Claus will solve the problem.

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Many societies cannot survive without some child labor - even if it is in the home, helping the parents. I started working at various jobs at a young age, and it didn't kill me. In the past, many Europeans and Americans were indentured servants from their early teens, which was a type of slavery. Having regulated workplaces for children in the less fortunate societies is far better than what many of our ancestors went through right here in the U.S.A., Europe, and elsewhere.

There are some well-off kids that are getting credit in the media for rabble rousing against child labor. These kids' parents are no doubt behind their crusade - but they inherited a stable economic situation and nice lifestyle. Most of the world's population, unfortunately, is not born with a silver spoon and does not have these privileges.

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Originally Posted by Breukelen advocaat

Many societies cannot survive without some child labor - even if it is in the home, helping the parents. I started working at various jobs at a young age, and it didn't kill me. In the past, many Europeans and Americans were indentured servants from their early teens, which was a type of slavery. Having regulated workplaces for children in the less fortunate societies is far better than what many of our ancestors went through right here in the U.S.A., Europe, and elsewhere.

There are some well-off kids that are getting credit in the media for rabble rousing against child labor. These kids' parents are no doubt behind their crusade - but they inherited a stable economic situation and nice lifestyle. Most of the world's population, unfortunately, is not born with a silver spoon and does not have these privileges.

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You've always had common sense Breuk:thumbsup: It's too bad more people couldn't see the big picture. Especially the "rabble rousers". They love to promote their cause of the day but most have little, if any, understanding of the just what is involved. Unless someone can intelligently discuss the socio/economic factors involved with this type of issue they have no business discussing it at all. Sadly, however, its these idiots who make the most noise.

You have some good points Fengzi, and I actually wouldn't want to argue with any of them at this venture.

But surely we can agree that there's a difference between outsourcing Labor, both as a means of keeping costs lower and providing work to other countries; and economically exploiting 3rd world nations.

I'm not suggesting that we don't utilize foreign markets, but rather that we pay them a fairer wage for their labor. I know what your thinking, it would cause our own costs to rise, maybe you'd pay an additional dollar or two per shirt. And of course, the place to start with this balancing act is at home, because the excess of some in the face of the overwhelming poverty of many is disgusting.

I just think it's going to become an inevitable step, sustainability is rapidly becoming a necessity in our future. And the sooner our nation realises that, the higher the level we'll be able to sustain. Time is money after all, and we seem to rapidly be running out of both.

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Originally Posted by Polymirize

You have some good points Fengzi, and I actually wouldn't want to argue with any of them at this venture.

But surely we can agree that there's a difference between outsourcing Labor, both as a means of keeping costs lower and providing work to other countries; and economically exploiting 3rd world nations.

I'm not suggesting that we don't utilize foreign markets, but rather that we pay them a fairer wage for their labor. I know what your thinking, it would cause our own costs to rise, maybe you'd pay an additional dollar or two per shirt. And of course, the place to start with this balancing act is at home, because the excess of some in the face of the overwhelming poverty of many is disgusting.

I just think it's going to become an inevitable step, sustainability is rapidly becoming a necessity in our future. And the sooner our nation realises that, the higher the level we'll be able to sustain. Time is money after all, and we seem to rapidly be running out of both.

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Paying foreign workers a "fair wage", or the failure to do so, is another myth created by the left. What is "fair" can only be determined by the people living in a given area. What seems grossly unfair to us may seem pretty good in Indonesia.

When I first met my wife 11 years ago, she was a professor at a top university in China. As a highly educated professional, working for the Chinese equivalent of Harvard or Yale, she earned about $200 a month. That's about $10 a day and that was considered very good in Shanghai.

While it would seem like the noble thing to set up a factory and start paying the workers there $6/hr, the reality is that it would wreak havoc on the local economy. You would flood the economy with money and inflation would go up. Before long the factory workers would become the new rich, using their resources(money) to compete with the rest of the local population. The result would be that the rest of the population would no longer be able to afford to keep their old standard of living. So, while you've helped a few hundred factory workers, you've fucked the rest of the population.

Think about it, there's a reason Nike can set up a factory in some thid world place and pay workers $1/day. Although the left likes to use terms like "slave labor" the reality is that people are there by their own free will. Do you really think they'd stay working for $1/day if it wasn't better than the alternative? If the alternative is working in a snake, bug, and disease infested rice paddy for $0.75/day, is Nike really taking advantage of them.

Just something to think about.

there are all sorts of justifications for the status quo. And they are exactly that, justifications.

The fact that people live in a situation where they choose to survive, vs not-survive is not highly indicative of a free choice, but I see where you're going with that. Having fewer constraints on ourselves, surely we could lower ourselves somewhat in order to expand the parameters of their existence to something beyond mere survival. I work a job in order to have money to pay bills, rent, for food, and even luxury items like the occasional eighth and high speed internet. The fact that people can be hired for jobs which basically allow them to slowly starve is ridiculous.

I'll admit, I'm something of an idealist over a sound economist though. I agree with other out-there policies such as aids relief and water purification projects in africa and the like.

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Originally Posted by Polymirize

there are all sorts of justifications for the status quo. And they are exactly that, justifications.

The fact that people live in a situation where they choose to survive, vs not-survive is not highly indicative of a free choice, but I see where you're going with that. Having fewer constraints on ourselves, surely we could lower ourselves somewhat in order to expand the parameters of their existence to something beyond mere survival. I work a job in order to have money to pay bills, rent, for food, and even luxury items like the occasional eighth and high speed internet. The fact that people can be hired for jobs which basically allow them to slowly starve is ridiculous.

I'll admit, I'm something of an idealist over a sound economist though. I agree with other out-there policies such as aids relief and water purification projects in africa and the like.

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You see the situation through Western eyes Polymirize. Your statement of "The fact that people can be hired for jobs which basically allow them to slowly starve is ridiculous" shows this. Please don't take this as negative criticism because that's not how it was intended. Just a fact. The price of goods in any area is directly related to the amount of money in any area. There is considerably more money in the U.S. so the same item will cost considerably more. At least this is true with staple items such as food, housing, and clothing. Luxury items like iPOD's, TV's, etc. are much more expensive in poorer countries because their price remains relatively constant.

In many parts of the world $1 a day can feed a family quite well. When I lived in China I would routinely go to the local noodle shop and get a huge bowl of soup, with freshly made noodles, beef, and an egg. I'd be completely stuffed when I was done and would have only spent the equivilent of US$0.10, a dime! And that was in the big city, Shanghai, where prices were higher. Even in bigger, fancier, restaurants two people can have a quite lavish dinner for less that $5. Ironically, a burger and fries at McD's in Shanghai is considered quite expensive, as prices there are essentially the same here. Who'd have ever thought that McD's would be considered posh dining. In any case, the point I'm trying to make is that just because a person would starve on $1 a day here, in someplace like Indonesia they could probably eat quite well.

Of course, the standard of living is quite different. As I mentioned above, luxury items are still quite expensive and not within the financial grasp of someone making $1 a day. But this doesn't mean the people do not live happy and productive lives. And with the headaches that all of our material possessions bring, I often wonder if they might not be better off. At least in some aspects.

Now don't get me wrong, I am not foolish to believe that all is good in the world and that there are not people suffering. There are, and projects like aids relief, water purification, etc. are certainly needed. I have no problems with these types of aid. My problem is with the knee jerk reaction, of the left, which seems to assume that if we're not dropping free bags of wheat on the people nothing else matters. Like the old saying goes, "give a man a fish and he'll eat for a day, teach him to fish and he'll eat for life". Maybe, just maybe, in the long run, a factory paying $1 a day will be a whole lot more beneficial than a sack of grain. Maybe not. The point is that we really need to look at the big picture before assuming that factory is bad.