Printable View
What is the number one teaching of Christianity that is the hardest for youto follow? I believe heavily in the teachings of Christ, but like every other human being in the world I "walk the line" like a drunk with a blindfold on. Atheists and agnostics please post your opinions, too; what do you think is the most demanding and spritually testing? Do you think the world would be a better place if more people followed it, or about the same?
For me, personally: Love thy enemy.
I would say giving away my hard earned $$ to rich and powerful religious organizations.
we all wear our own yoke, even non believers of course theirs are lighter, you are the only one liable for your own faith. stay true to your beliefs an live up to what you know is right
My guess would be a few things...I have a small list of common Christian strongholds.
1) Getting over intolerance --> Not a Christian value
2) Getting rid of fear --> Not a true Christian value
3) Loving ourselves --> Is this even in the Bible?
4) Loving others --> easier than loving self
5) Loving our enemies --> #1 Hardest Christian teaching to follow, imo
6) Forgiving others and self --> Can be really hard
7) Having faith in what God made us --> Almost non-existant among Christian Faiths
I think these are all important things when dealing with life as we know it, and something most of us have problem with. Including non-Christians, imo.
We're all basicly the same as far as I can see. We just believe, and value different things...
My morning bake got me --> :stoned: <-- I feel very good right now
"And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might."
Is that the hardest for you, PTS? :confused:
I find it really easy to Love my creator...
Peace,
Turn the other cheek.
You hurt me , I hurt you more.
Vengeance is mine ,,, fuck the lord.
Yeah, I've always found loving your enemies and turning the other cheek to be pretty stupid rules. If Jesus were in charge, he would have just allowed Hitler and Mussolini and Hirohito to take over the world. Like it or not, violence is sometimes necessary for self-defense.
But that's not the worst of it. If we take Jesus at his word, he demands we do things so grossly unethical that not even the most fundamentalist Bible-thumper would dare consider doing them. Here's an example from the celebrated Sermon on the Mount.
Near the beginning of his speech, Jesus makes clear his relation to the previous prophets in the Bible (specifically Moses):Okay, so the laws of Moses are perfect and immutable (and you have to be as righteous as the prophets to get into heaven, but let's ignore that part for now).Quote:
Matthew 5:17-20: "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven."
He later goes on to say, in Matthew 5:27-28:
This is obviously a reference to one of the Ten Commandments (Exodus 20:14).Quote:
Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
All right, so looking at a woman lustfully counts as adultery. So, that means that pretty much every man is guilty of adultery, since we have these innate sex drives that we can't possibly control that cause us to look at women lustfully.Quote:
But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
And what does the perfect and immutable law of the prophets, the law that Jesus came not to destroy but to fulfil, the law from which one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass till heaven and earth pass, have to say about adulterers?
Well, in Leviticus 20:10, the Lord gives the following commandment to Moses:
So, if looking at a woman lustfully counts as adultery, and adultery is bad because the prophets told us not to commit adultery, and the prophets also told us to kill adulterers, then shouldn't we logically kill every man who has looked lustfully at a woman? I think that would be a pretty hard Christian thing to do.Quote:
And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.
Oneironaut, I look at woman with lust at times. BUT, I'm not a married man, so its not adultery, right? Sure, Jesus didn't specify, but I'm certain those hearing his words knew the definition of adultery. Do you really think, that Jesus would imply that a single man, not yet married, would be sinning if he thought about sex? That's just crazy, imo! Btw, stoning was an ancient practice, but certainly wasn't Gods law. I don't recall anywhere in the Bible where 'God' demanded adulterers to be stoned...wasn't that Moses? Certainly NOT in the ten commandments.
Love your enemy is a good rule of thumb if you ask me. It helps us erase the intolorant attitude we all possess. BUT, if I get struck a third time we're gonna roll!
Also, Jesus didn't say you had to be as righteous as the prophets. He said scribes and Pharisees. I think he refered to the pharisees as vipers:
Matthew 3:7
7. But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
He also said that whosoever broke the least of the commandents, would be the least in the kindgdom. I assume that kingdom would be the 'kingdom of heaven', so what's your point?
I don't understand...
Even if that were true, God certainly doesn't have any problem with stoning. I don't recall any commandment "Thou shalt not stone". It's like the whole slavery thing. God could just come out and say "THAT'S BARBARIC!" but he doesn't. Funny how God's morality is malleable to the social milieu and the traditional customs of primitive nomadic tribes of desert warriors.Quote:
Originally Posted by JunkYard
God demands adulterers to be executed in Leviticus 20:10. I never said anything about stoning.Quote:
I don't recall anywhere in the Bible where 'God' demanded adulterers to be stoned...wasn't that Moses?
What makes Exodus 20 God's true and eternal law but Leviticus 20 a barbaric ancient practice that is irrelevant in our modern culture? As far as I can tell from my reading of the Pentateuch, they have equal validity as God's immutable and perfect law to the prophet Moses. Jesus himself said not one jot or tittle would change from those laws until heaven and earth passed; that means Leviticus 20 must still apply, no?Quote:
Certainly NOT in the ten commandments.
You're right, my bad.Quote:
Also, Jesus didn't say you had to be as righteous as the prophets. He said scribes and Pharisees. I think he refered to the pharisees as vipers:
You're versed, eh?
Can I ask you something? Do you think a person can discern the spirit of truth and the spirit of error in the Bible, or are you the type that says "All or nothing"?
Jesus was a cool cat, man. At least, I think so. The Old testament God was made out to be a jealous, angry brute, but I think this is simply due to mankind putting our own err.. qualities on him. (You know what I mean)
I doubt God wanted anything to do with all the violence attributed to him in the Old Testament. Mankind created the Bible, and mankind created much of the Bible God, imo. I'm not a Christian, but I like reading the Bible, and sift through the BS, so I can get to what's real...or what I believe to be real.
Theres good stuff in there...
Much Love,
And by the way, you might want to check out Exodus 21, the chapter that comes right after the Ten Commandments, full of more commandments from God that are for some reason ignored by pretty much every Christian and Jew I know.
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/ex/21.html
Whoa, whoa, whoa, whatever happened to "turn the other cheek"?! This Jehovah character seems to totally contradict this Jesus guy who claims to be him.Quote:
21:1 Now these are the judgments which thou shalt set before them.
21:2 If thou buy an Hebrew servant, six years he shall serve: and in the seventh he shall go out free for nothing.
...
21:7 And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the menservants do.
...
21:24 Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,
21:25 Burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.
Is it against the teachings to smoke?
Jesus made the new law, which I view to be the correct one. Judge the spirit not the writ.Quote:
Originally Posted by Oneironaut
:smokin:
Well, the Bible is a complicated book, but mostly it looks to be a collaboration of Jewish mythology which was used by their leaders to justify their territorial conquests, and appended to that is the story of a first-century Judaean man who may or may not have existed who like many others of the period claimed he was the messiah and performed some magic tricks and spoke a whole bunch of rhetoric about how we should act, which of course was heavily influenced by the cultural traditions of first-century Judaeans. An interesting historical document, but I'm afraid it doesn't seem to have any more validity than Homer's Odyssey.Quote:
Originally Posted by JunkYard
Why wouldn't God make a better holy book that portrays him as he truly is?Quote:
Jesus was a cool cat, man. At least, I think so. The Old testament God was made out to be a jealous, angry brute, but I think this is simply due to mankind putting our own err.. qualities on him. (You know what I mean)
I haven't really found a whole lot of good stuff. I mean, there are some common sense ethical things, like be nice and try not to hurt people or steal their stuff, but anybody could come up with that. Everybody knows stealing and killing and stuff is wrong, even people who have never even heard of the Bible. And there's a whole bunch of nonsense (There are three different spirits that are actually the same single spirit? Jesus becomes wine and bread that we drink and eat? Huh?) And then there's just complete crap, like the idea of giving up all self-defense, or gouging out my eyes if I commit a sin with them.Quote:
I doubt God wanted anything to do with all the violence attributed to him in the Old Testament. Mankind created the Bible, and mankind created much of the Bible God, imo. I'm not a Christian, but I like reading the Bible, and sift through the BS, so I can get to what's real...or what I believe to be real.
Theres good stuff in there...
Much Love,
If you ask me, there are plenty of better philosophers out there with more detailed and logical ethical philosophies. Jesus, if he existed, was a product of his time, and he failed to condemn things like slavery and sexism and homophobia because in his time they were unquestioned traditions. We have transcended the ethics of first-century Judaea, and we can build for ourselves a better morality suited to our own modern society. We don't need ancient books to tell us what's right and what's wrong. It's much easier to figure it out for ourselves with trial and error, and rigorous thought. Ancient books are interesting to study, but they shouldn't be guides to our modern lives.
So what's up with the old law then? Why couldn't God get it right the first time? How could he have fucked up so badly? If I were God, I wouldn't let a whole bunch of people going around saying I support slavery and baby-murdering and animal sacrifice and writing it down in their holy books. Why do Christians continue to publish this stuff? Why do they pick and choose which parts of the Old Testament they personally like and reject the ones they find morally disgusting? Do they think their own morality is better than the one God supposedly dictated to their holy prophets?Quote:
Originally Posted by JunkYard
Is morality absolute or is it relative? Both, says the Christian!
God didn't make the Bible, man did, but it can serve as a great guide if you judge the spirit behind whats written. God won't interfere with what man chooses, so why would he interfere with how the Bible was written?
In my mind, I need no 'proof' of his existence...it's all around me. Why would God need give us more than what he gave in the beginning? (Life and creation) Besides, it doesn't matter if you believe in God, or not. He doesn't need, or demand your worship, imo. That is one of the most ridiculous concepts I've ever heard.
It [the Bible] can be complicated, but if you go in realizing that not everything written is literal, and judge by the spirit of Love, it's quite easy to sift through the BS, imo. Most Christians disagree, though, lol!
I think the crux of Jesus' message was love, and responsibility, and who knows what else Jesus said? How do you know he didn't condem those practices you mentioned? Only a very samll part of his life was recorded, but the part that was, is a wonderful testimony, imo.
Sure, there are other books you can derive many of the same ethics and principles from, but the Bible IS the most poplular. People like Ghandi, Buddha, and others of the like mind are great teachers just as Jesus was. It all comes down to what you choose to embrace, man.
Why the bitterness towards Jesus, God, and the Christians? They're just people looking for answers, too. Nevermind, I understand, man. I once felt the same way! I just decided to quit giving them power over me, and decided to make my own path. Minus, the attitude, inntolerance, bitterness, fear, and the anger that so many Christians display. My guide is the Bible. My teacher is Jesus, and no, I'm not a Christian...Just a fan of the man.
Much Love,
Why would he, man? We're allowed to fuck up...that's the beauty of free will. I'm sure God knows that we [mankind] will figure it out sooner or later, lol! The Bible is full of BS, and until we question what's written, including the man laws brought down from the so called prophets, it will remain the same. People like you don't help, either. You got the all or nothing attitude when it comes to the Bible, and that is the exact same problem with Christians. This attitude only reinforces their beliefs that the Bible is error free.Quote:
Originally Posted by Oneironaut
All or nothing...give me a break! Thats like saying in order to be an american, you have to agree with EVERYTHING our government does, and tells us.
Bahh!
I judge the spirit behind slavery, genocide, killing someone for picking up sticks on the Sabbath, and killing gay men to be hateful and outdated. And I judge the spirit of the long list of begats to be extremely boring. Please, direct me to the section of the Bible that has something enlightening that I can apply to my own life. Sure, there's a little bit in there, but it's very ambiguously worded, it has to be translated from ancient Hebrew/Greek, and it sure is surrounded by a lot of sexist, violent filler which also manages to get extreeeeemely boring despite all the disgustingness.Quote:
Originally Posted by JunkYard
My name is Levi. Go read the Biblical story of Levi and the Shechemites and tell me what you think of the spirit behind that story. Needless to say, I'm not very pleased to be named after that asshole.
Are you kidding me? In the Bible, God interferes with what man chooses all the time! Noah's flood, the Tower of Babel, Sodom and Gomorrah, the Egyptian enslavement of the Jews, the leading of the Jews over other tribes. That's all interference.Quote:
God won't interfere with what man chooses, so why would he interfere with how the Bible was written?
I think if there really was a God, he would want people to know he exists and would want people to know a little bit about who he is. If he can't get off his ass to say anything to us or show himself, how can we possibly know anything about him? An entity about which we know nothing is indistinguishable from a non-existent entity.
What? You need no proof, because the proof you need is all around you? That doesn't make any sense.Quote:
In my mind, I need no 'proof' of his existence...it's all around me.
So what's the deal with the First Commandment? Jesus was a real big fan of the Ten Commandments, you know.Quote:
Why would God need give us more than what he gave in the beginning? (Life and creation) Besides, it doesn't matter if you believe in God, or not. He doesn't need, or demand your worship, imo. That is one of the most ridiculous concepts I've ever heard.
It's hard with such a bigoted, hate-filled book.Quote:
It [the Bible] can be complicated, but if you go in realizing that not everything written is literal, and judge by the spirit of Love,
I refuse to be part of a religion that has any kind of bullshit in its holy book. How can you even call it a holy book if it's actually a very holey book? I just don't see what's so special about it. It's badly written, it supports all kinds of barbarisms, and it trails off into a lot of nonsense quite often, and it's got a lot of filler. It just isn't very interesting and I haven't learned any deep moral lessons from it. Don't kill, don't steal, don't lie, that's all cool. But then it says don't look at hot chicks, don't eat shellfish, don't eat bats, don't eat snakes, don't wear two clothes of the same fabric, don't be gay, don't work on the Sabbath, don't do your animal sacrifices incorrectly or God won't like the smell of it, don't marry a divorced woman, don't take a shit in a hole and not cover it up, don't touch a chick when she's on her period, blah blah blah blah blah. It doesn't really sound that divinely inspired to me. A supreme being would definitely be able to come up with much better ideas than that.Quote:
it's quite easy to sift through the BS, imo. Most Christians disagree, though, lol!
Lots of people believe in love and responsibility. Why not hold Socrates with the same merit. At least Socrates didn't pretend to be God or threaten you with eternal torture if you didn't behave yourself.Quote:
I think the crux of Jesus' message was love, and responsibility, and who knows what else Jesus said? How do you know he didn't condem those practices you mentioned? Only a very samll part of his life was recorded, but the part that was, is a wonderful testimony, imo.
So what? It's barbaric.Quote:
Sure, there are other books you can derive many of the same ethics and principles from, but the Bible IS the most poplular.
Well, they're looking in the wrong places. I don't have any hostility towards Christians, I just find Christianity itself to be a bunch of superstitious hogwash mixed with some ambiguous moralities that lends itself too often to fundamentalism and extremism which can have disastrous consequences. Nobody ever started a witch hunt over an obscure passage in the early works of Voltaire, or instigated a Crusade over the eternal divine truth of Immanuel Kant's message to humanity.Quote:
People like Ghandi, Buddha, and others of the like mind are great teachers just as Jesus was. It all comes down to what you choose to embrace, man.
Why the bitterness towards Jesus, God, and the Christians? They're just people looking for answers, too.
I just don't see what the big fuss is about Jesus. What was so important that he had to say? Play nice, and be responsible, and ask for forgiveness, or God will kick your ass? Ooh look, I'm God, watch me walk on water? Eat bread and drink wine and pretend you're cannibals eating me? What's so special about that message?Quote:
Nevermind, I understand, man. I once felt the same way! I just decided to quit giving them power over me, and decided to make my own path. Minus, the attitude, inntolerance, bitterness, fear, and the anger that so many Christians display. My guide is the Bible. My teacher is Jesus, and no, I'm not a Christian...Just a fan of the man.
Much Love,
Try Proverbs, or Psalms, or 'some' of John, 1 John, 2 John, theres alot of good stuff if you look, man but you won't find it w/o a willing attitude, sorry.Quote:
Originally Posted by Oneironaut
If you choose to believe that....btw, he never interferes with 'choice' it was man's choice to portray God in that manner.Quote:
Are you kidding me? In the Bible, God interferes with what man chooses all the time! Noah's flood, the Tower of Babel, Sodom and Gomorrah, the Egyptian enslavement of the Jews, the leading of the Jews over other tribes. That's all interference.
I don't need him to prove himself, but I guess others are different. Like I said, I don't think it matters if you 'believe', or not. It's your 'choice'. ;)Quote:
I think if there really was a God, he would want people to know he exists and would want people to know a little bit about who he is. If he can't get off his ass to say anything to us or show himself, how can we possibly know anything about him? An entity about which we know nothing is indistinguishable from a non-existent entity.
I exist, I see a beautiful creation, I see life, birth, death everyday. Why would I need anything more?Quote:
What? You need no proof, because the proof you need is all around you? That doesn't make any sense.
God IS life...Love life.Quote:
So what's the deal with the First Commandment? Jesus was a real big fan of the Ten Commandments, you know.
I know...Quote:
It's hard with such a bigoted, hate-filled book.
Then don't, I'm certainly not asking you to. You have your Odyssey.Quote:
I refuse to be part of a religion that has any kind of bullshit in its holy book. How can you even call it a holy book if it's actually a very holey book? I just don't see what's so special about it.
Yup, man twisted it up pretty good, huh?Quote:
It's badly written, it supports all kinds of barbarisms, and it trails off into a lot of nonsense quite often, and it's got a lot of filler. It just isn't very interesting and I haven't learned any deep moral lessons from it. Don't kill, don't steal, don't lie, that's all cool. But then it says don't look at hot chicks, don't eat shellfish, don't eat bats, don't eat snakes, don't wear two clothes of the same fabric, don't be gay, don't work on the Sabbath, don't do your animal sacrifices incorrectly or God won't like the smell of it, don't marry a divorced woman, don't take a shit in a hole and not cover it up, don't touch a chick when she's on her period, blah blah blah blah blah. It doesn't really sound that divinely inspired to me. A supreme being would definitely be able to come up with much better ideas than that.
I respect all who value these things. I believe the Church had an agenda when pushing the whole fire and brimstone issue...Quote:
Lots of people believe in love and responsibility. Why not hold Socrates with the same merit. At least Socrates didn't pretend to be God or threaten you with eternal torture if you didn't behave yourself.
I agree, the Bible in the hands of the fearful and true believers can be a dagerous thing.Quote:
Well, they're looking in the wrong places. I don't have any hostility towards Christians, I just find Christianity itself to be a bunch of superstitious hogwash mixed with some ambiguous moralities that lends itself too often to fundamentalism and extremism which can have disastrous consequences. Nobody ever started a witch hunt over an obscure passage in the early works of Voltaire, or instigated a Crusade over the eternal divine truth of Immanuel Kant's message to humanity.
Quote:
I just don't see what the big fuss is about Jesus. What was so important that he had to say? Play nice, and be responsible, and ask for forgiveness, or God will kick your ass? Ooh look, I'm God, watch me walk on water? Eat bread and drink wine and pretend you're cannibals eating me? What's so special about that message?
Because it will be 'his' message that helps change the world...The Bible is going nowhere, man. People want to believe in Jesus. People need to believe in Jesus, and his words truly inspire. So does Ghandi, the teachings of Buddha and others of the like mind...
Much Love,
Sorry, I'm stoned. That was supposed to be a reference to Leviticus 19:19, the divine commandment against wearing clothing woven of two different fabrics. It's after the deep, insightful part where it says to not fuck your sister.Quote:
Originally Posted by Oneironaut
LMAO!Quote:
Originally Posted by Oneironaut
yup, that's would be insightful, hahahaha!
:D
I've read a lot of that stuff. God is great, yay for God, help us Lord, we're evil sinners, but we try to be good...yaaaaaawn... Don't tell me I haven't looked for something good in here. I keep reading and reading and it's just so boring and uninspiring. There's no plot structure, the characters are all so one-dimensional, and it repeats itself over and over again. Besides that, so much of it is really really hard to derive any actual meaning from. Even expert theologians can't figure out what this stuff is supposed to mean, because they're all interpreting it in their own way due to extremely vague wording.Quote:
Originally Posted by JunkYard
How do you know he doesn't interfere with choice? I myself find the idea of an all-powerful all-knowing being to be logically incompatible with the idea of free will, but that's a whole nother can of worms I don't want to get into right now.Quote:
If you choose to believe that....btw, he never interferes with 'choice' it was man's choice to portray God in that manner.
I can't help it, but my brain operates according to the rules of logic. I can't get it to accept an idea for which there is no evidence. It just won't fit in there. It's like trying to convince myself that unicorns exist. I'd have to actually see real evidence of a unicorn for my brain to accept that idea. Unicorns are things that should be very hard to miss.Quote:
I don't need him to prove himself, but I guess others are different. Like I said, I don't think it matters if you 'believe', or not. It's your 'choice'. ;)
As far as I'm concerned, there cannot logically be a God who does not interfere with our universe somehow. Anything that does not have a measurable effect on our universe is by definition non-existent. If God doesn't interfere with our lives, doesn't change things in our universe, then it is impossible to get any information on him and he cannot be said to exist in any meaningful sense of the term.
On the other hand, if he does interfere with our lives, there should be some objective evidence for that. His influence should be demonstrable somehow, and obvious to us. We are lacking in such evidence. I don't see why a God who supposedly loves us would keep himself so hidden.
Exactly. Isn't that enough? Why delude yourself with fictitious supernatural sky wizards? Life is beautiful; appreciate it for what it is: the magnificent product of Darwinian natural selection over billions of years, with no driven purpose in mind, a mosaic of the natural laws of our universe working in an inconceivably complex fashion. Physics, chemistry, biology and astronomy are all far more inspiring than the Bible. Give me Hawking, Dawkins or Sagan over Jesus anyday.Quote:
I exist, I see a beautiful creation, I see life, birth, death everyday. Why would I need anything more?
I didn't twist it up, I opened up my Bible and that's the kind of stuff I read in it.Quote:
Yup, man twisted it up pretty good, huh?
Actually, the fire and brimstone bit has been around since the earliest Christian writings. In fact, the Apocalypse of Peter (not the Gnostic text of the same name) was removed from the Biblical canon before the Council of Nicea established the modern Bible as we know it. Why? Because it was too gruesome in its depiction of what happens to sinners in Hell (it also described the pleasures of Heaven). In the early days of Christianity it had just as much validity as the other New Testament books we know today; it just seems the early Christians didn't like it too much and decided to do away with it.Quote:
I respect all who value these things. I believe the Church had an agenda when pushing the whole fire and brimstone issue...
What other book can you say that about? Mein Kampf maybe? Any book that says "This is how you should live your life, because this great powerful being says so" is dangerous when it becomes popularized, because it will get into the hands of people who take it too far. That's the problem with bowing down to higher powers, be they heavenly or earthly; people will always fight in the name of their chosen higher power against other higher powers.Quote:
I agree, the Bible in the hands of the fearful and true believers can be a dagerous thing.
What's so inspiring about it? It's such a bland, nonsensical message. A few basic moral rules everybody pretty much already agrees to, a couple superstitious claims about the supernatural, and a whole bunch of vague parables whose meanings theologians can't exactly agree on. Give me Carl Sagan, Bertrand Russell, Emma Goldman, Mark Twain, Ralph Waldo Emerson or Henry David Thoreau, someone who writes clearly with powerful arguments and impeccable logic, who can inspire you with the real world, not the imaginative superstitions of times past. Give me someone who writes a scathing social critique, crying for justice in the face of tyranny, condemning the evils of the day, instead of telling everybody to turn the other cheek and hope for better times in an afterlife that will never come.Quote:
Because it will be 'his' message that helps change the world...The Bible is going nowhere, man. People want to believe in Jesus. People need to believe in Jesus, and his words truly inspire. So does Ghandi, the teachings of Buddha and others of the like mind...
If you're not finding any meaning, then maybe it's simply not for you, man. But there some of us who find it inspiring, and meaningful, and who derive a great sense of fullfilment from it. If you don't like it, don't read it. Its not the end all 'save' all answer to every life problem. It just helps some people, and for others it merely increases their "fear", bitterness, anger, etc...depends on how it is recieved..Quote:
Originally Posted by Oneironaut
You don't get any pleasure from it, so why read it at all?
Is there a reason?
I personaly like it, I like Jesus, I believe in a God, and it works for me, and no harm done, right?
My idea of God is that he is simply the creative, and destructive force of the universe, as well as the universal consciouness. Apparently you have other views of what 'you' think God 'should' be. I'm sorry if he doesn't live up tou your expectations, man. That's a choice too, btw.Quote:
How do you know he doesn't interfere with choice? I myself find the idea of an all-powerful all-knowing being to be logically incompatible with the idea of free will, but that's a whole nother can of worms I don't want to get into right now.
Fair enough...Quote:
I can't help it, but my brain operates according to the rules of logic. I can't get it to accept an idea for which there is no evidence. It just won't fit in there. It's like trying to convince myself that unicorns exist. I'd have to actually see real evidence of a unicorn for my brain to accept that idea. Unicorns are things that should be very hard to miss.
See My idea of God above... Doesn't make it true, but it is what I personally believe. You see it differently, so what? It doesn't matter in the least as far as I'm concernedQuote:
As far as I'm concerned, there cannot logically be a God who does not interfere with our universe somehow. Anything that does not have a measurable effect on our universe is by definition non-existent. If God doesn't interfere with our lives, doesn't change things in our universe, then it is impossible to get any information on him and he cannot be said to exist in any meaningful sense of the term.
Maybe because he wants us to find him on our own, in our own time. It makes it much more satisfying, I would think.Quote:
On the other hand, if he does interfere with our lives, there should be some objective evidence for that. His influence should be demonstrable somehow, and obvious to us. We are lacking in such evidence. I don't see why a God who supposedly loves us would keep himself so hidden.
Why worry about what "I" believe, man? I harm no one, I don't discriminate, I don't attempt to convert, and I don't tell you you're going to burn in hell for doubting God. I believe, and that sir is my business. The why isn't important...Quote:
Exactly. Isn't that enough? Why delude yourself with fictitious supernatural sky wizards? Life is beautiful; appreciate it for what it is: the magnificent product of Darwinian natural selection over billions of years, with no driven purpose in mind, a mosaic of the natural laws of our universe working in an inconceivably complex fashion. Physics, chemistry, biology and astronomy are all far more inspiring than the Bible. Give me Hawking, Dawkins or Sagan over Jesus anyday.
I've been talking about how man created the Bible, as opposed to God. I never said "you" I said man, I'm not trying to be an ass with you, bro. I'm simply stating my views, cool?Quote:
I didn't twist it up, I opened up my Bible and that's the kind of stuff I read in it.
Exactly... The Church pushed that dogma...I guess the others were much like me, and rejected it flat, lol! Then again, hell could be a darkened heart where the fires of bitterness, hate, anger, and fear breed.Quote:
Actually, the fire and brimstone bit has been around since the earliest Christian writings. In fact, the Apocalypse of Peter (not the Gnostic text of the same name) was removed from the Biblical canon before the Council of Nicea established the modern Bible as we know it. Why? Because it was too gruesome in its depiction of what happens to sinners in Hell (it also described the pleasures of Heaven). In the early days of Christianity it had just as much validity as the other New Testament books we know today; it just seems the early Christians didn't like it too much and decided to do away with it.
Think about it...
Thats exactly why it is important to judge by that spirit I mentioned, man. People get too worked up over religion. God is not religion...God is life and Love. The Bible can be useful, and it can be dangerous. It depends on the way it is recieved, and the heart that recieves it.Quote:
What other book can you say that about? Mein Kampf maybe? Any book that says "This is how you should live your life, because this great powerful being says so" is dangerous when it becomes popularized, because it will get into the hands of people who take it too far. That's the problem with bowing down to higher powers, be they heavenly or earthly; people will always fight in the name of their chosen higher power against other higher powers.
See: Matthew 13:3-9
So don't read it, man. If you don't like it, don't read it... It's really that simple. ;)Quote:
What's so inspiring about it? It's such a bland, nonsensical message. A few basic moral rules everybody pretty much already agrees to, a couple superstitious claims about the supernatural, and a whole bunch of vague parables whose meanings theologians can't exactly agree on. Give me Carl Sagan, Bertrand Russell, Emma Goldman, Mark Twain, Ralph Waldo Emerson or Henry David Thoreau, someone who writes clearly with powerful arguments and impeccable logic, who can inspire you with the real world, not the imaginative superstitions of times past. Give me someone who writes a scathing social critique, crying for justice in the face of tyranny, condemning the evils of the day, instead of telling everybody to turn the other cheek and hope for better times in an afterlife that will never come.
Learning to Love your neighbor, and enemies, and learning to love life is what salvation is about, imo. Maybe heaven and hell are simple states of mind?
I think it all happens in this life man, because death is certain to come. But these are just my opinions, bro.
Feel free to disagree....
Much Love,
:smokin:
believing there is a magical 'man' watching everythign i do, and will judge me by my actions when i die... not really 'hard to follow' so much as 'hard to believe' but that's where faith starts right? believing.... so yeah, i have to chose that... i don't believe in god... honestly, if everyone followed the word of 'god' of course the world would be a better place, the guidlines given 'by him' are some very good guidlines for living life... i just don't believe there is a god that will judge me if i dont' follow them..Quote:
Originally Posted by Nylo
Oneironaut, I've come to accept that you have a hard-on for anti-religious arguments, but could you please stop pretending that you have any sort of logical superiority in your arguments?
You border on fundamentalism in your approach, and closemindedly refuse to acknowledge your belief in your own metaphysical assumptions, namely that there is no god. I think Junkyard hit the nail on the head when he asked you if you're an all or nothing kinda guy.
I think its an incredible insult to the very concept of god that you think he could be accurately contained within the pages of (as you've said) a rather badly written text. Which only goes to show that you've missed the point entirely. Human beings don't define God, god is by his nature undefinable, so all definitions are false. The fundamentalist worships false idols.
That's my interpretation. I don't pretend to speak for any religious view because I don't really have one, but I'm open to various possibilities.
As for the original post
Exodus 22:18. Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live
I actually just ignore this passage entirely...
The Bible is a believe it or not kinda thing and thats the problem with the religious nuts among us, how can it be right in parts and wrong in others.
Man wrote it is a poor excuse since it is supposedly the WORD of god ?
You either believe it to be true or not.
If any God botherers want to clear up what is to be accepted and what is to be ignored then maybe people would have a clearer idea .
IMO the bible and the stories of Jesus are about as believable as the tales of Robin Hood or even Aessops Fables.
The problem with the all or nothing attitude is it can lead you to very dark things. Look at our Christian history, and this is quite evident. As for telling someone what to believe and what not to believe. It's not possible; people will always believe what they choose, and no amount of effort to try to change those beliefs will make a difference. You are your own man, and you are 'free' to embrace anything you want...Quote:
Originally Posted by psychocat
But, if you truly want help knowing what choices you could make that might be of benefit, and what choices not to make when entering the realm of the Bible, I will point to something that might help. This will depend on what you value, though, so...
btw, I'll not try to change your mind. You asked, so I'm giving my answer...
1 John 4:6-8
6. We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.
7. Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.
8. He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
Anything that goes against Love is in the spitit of error, imo. You don't have to believe in God to Love, either. You only need to value it...
Much Love
Loving your enemies is pretty easy for me, I just don't like the things people do :p . Yes, I am a christian if you couldn't tell from my answer. I think this way because I believe as long as one is alive, we have a chance at changing our lifes and doing the right thing by accepting God and Jesus christ as the only true god and also believing that he died for all of us. The hard thing for everyone, Christian and Non-Christian, would be LUST. We lust for earthly things because we can see them and touch them, which makes it really hard to stop touching and looking at whatever we are lusting after. But God gives us a choice which makes us different from every other creation that god has made. I'm sure everyone can attest to that when they do something wrong, it was because they wanted to or they believed they had to. But it's all your choice after you reach that age knowing what is right and wrong. I know when I make the right choice, I feel good that I had the choice to do the right thing and that I did it willingly. LUST is inevitable because we were born with it because of Adam and Eve but we can try to stop and ask for forgiveness even though we will most likely fall into lust. You guys and gals know how it is :( , it's hard...
All you need to know is that God send his son to die for our sins :) . In all the many bibles there aer in the world, they all have the history of Jesus Christ and his miracles, and also his crucifixion. The bible has been translated many tmies over but this history in fact stays the same. That crucifixion was God's sacrifice to Man showing how much he loved us. He gaev us another connection with him because we lose the first one with Adam and Eve. Truly believe that Jesus died for your sins and you can then be connected with God again in spirit and have everlasting life with our creator :thumbsup: . It's all up to you, he gave you a choice which you can give your own answer and say no to. Good luck on your decision :thumbsup: . GOD BLESS THE UNIVERSE AND EVERYTHING IN IT AND ANY OTHER CREATION OF GOD !!!Quote:
Originally Posted by psychocat
Since I don't believe in God it kinda goes without saying that I also do not believe in JC.
If we are all descended from Adam and Eve and they were both Gods children then weren't our forefathers all guilty of incest ?
I have my own moral code and to some I am a saint and to others a sinner, I decide for myself and I care not for those who judge me nor will I ever give an inch to my enemies.
I find the whole bible a complete work of fiction with far too many fantastic stories I see it as akin to the Lord of The Rings , a fantastic story but that's all.
I do however hold with the idea that if people do choose to believe and they find solace or whatever in their belief then good luck to them.
The edicts of do no harm unto others, honesty, trustworthyness and fairness are not foreign to me simply because I do not believe in any deity and I DO admire them in others.
I just believe in the edict Do me no harm and I will do you no harm, fuck with me and I'll fuck you up. Fair in my eyes.
I respect your opinion as you do mine :thumbsup: .Quote:
Originally Posted by psychocat
Everyone is different; we all value different things. You've made your choices, and they are certainly yours to make. It doesn't much matter what others think, imo. [If they judge] I think what matters is what/how a person thinks/feels about themselves.Quote:
Originally Posted by psychocat
I treat others how I would like to be treated, but if an enemy pushes too hard with violence, I will defend myself. [As we all should] I'd say one turn of the cheek is enough, wouldn't you?
Otherwise, us "religious nuts" would be in pretty bad shape. I do my best to avoid that kind of confrontation nowdays, but when it comes, I won't/don't sit on my ass and get whooped willingly. I'll at least put up a fight.
btw, I don't see myself as a "religious nut", [That is quite a label, btw] I see my self as someone who simply believes in something bigger than myself. My views come from the Bible, and I credit Jesus' testimony for what I've taken from it...
Much Love,
My religious nut comment may well have been a little harsh and it wasn't directed at anyone in particular, I apologise if I caused anyone offence.
I like to think I am a fairly level-headed person and I was brought up with "Christian" values , even attending a faith school between the ages of 9 and 11 (St Francis School), however I find the whole thing just a tad hard to swallow, each to their own is how I think. :thumbsup:
PS
My Ten Commandments
Cause no harm to those who cause you no harm.
Treat others how you would like to be treat.
Take shit off nobody
Don't give others shit unless you're prepared to take it from them.
Do the crime, do the time . (I hate whinging cons, I have done my time)
Only kill it if you're gonna eat it. (Doesn't include humans of course :D )
Avoid smack and crack at all costs.
Never ever trust people in authority NOT to abuse their position.
Opinions are like arseholes (we all have one) and just like arseholes sometimes opinions stink, accept it.
You only get one life, live it to the max !! :thumbsup:
You seem level headed, psychocat, and I Love your ten commandments, save one...I think a person should endure a little shit before acting in anger, but that's just me. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by psychocat
btw, the 'religious nut' comment didn't offend me in the least; it was just inacurate, imo.
Much Love,
One thing that was touched on above....the hardest selling point of christianity, is the DEATH, HATE, and VIOLENCE. I live my life without these things, and I feel I am a better person for it. One time, we got the baptist's daughter to strip naked at a high school party....so im not really sold about this religion thing.
Being Christian doesn't mean you don't sin, no one Is perfect. Judas, one of jesus disciples, sold jesus out but he was still a christian. He became angry with himself for what he had done and commited suicide. That sounds like a crazy man to me, but he was Christian. That suicide thing was not cool though...
My one sentence answer:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Because God does NOT exist as the personification we give him/her.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Remember, God (or by whatever name you call the force/energy responsible for all of creation) is beyond comprehension by our relatively small and puny intellects. In order to relate to such an incomprehensible/unimaginable energy we create personifications such as God(s), angels, ect. All these concepts, whether you realize it or not, are of one and the same.
By taking the personifications too far and personally we create human fallacies which are incompatible with logic and science.
This is what I've come to terms with over my years..........toke up....:smokin:
The most difficult Christian value for me to adhere to (and I dislike the word "Christian" as it connotates "religion" and Christ himself never went to church or even required others to do so) is not judging others. I judge way too much every day, especially fat people who continue to stuff their faces.
If Judas is sent to Hell for his betrayal, and his betrayal was a necessary step in the humanity-saving death of Jesus Christ, then Judas is being punished for saving humanity. This goes hand-in-hand with the "free will" argument, and Aquinas's Summa deals with the issue of free will in demons and other beings instrumental in the life of Jesus that are nevertheless damned. This becomes a moot point in some denominations that denote Hell, not as a place of everlasting torture, but as non-existent state of the dead and the common grave of mankind.