i tok a look in the FAQ sction to find what type of light i can use that's cheap like CFL's for flowering/budding can anyone help me out a little here?
GrowinGreen23
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i tok a look in the FAQ sction to find what type of light i can use that's cheap like CFL's for flowering/budding can anyone help me out a little here?
GrowinGreen23
you answered your own question... cfl's. if you want cheap that's your option. other than that there is hps but that's not cheap or you could use t5 flouro's (bloom tubes) but they can be pretty expensive as well. there has also been alot of talk about led's recently but i have no experience with them. you could get a 70 or 150 hps security light from home depot for 30-80$ and convert it to a remote ballast and use that. i suppose under 75$ could be considered cheap when talking about a complete hid set-up. good luck.
well i have 2 150 watt cfls running now all i do is just change the light cycle and keep the same lights? i don't need to have more red or blue spectrum coming in?thanks
growingreen23
when you say 150 do you mean true 150watt horticultural cfl's or 42watters that screw into regular sockets and say something like "42watts same as 150 watt incandescent"
yes the 42 watters, i only have 3 plants and not a lot of space so i was told to try those, so doc whats the verdict, can i keep using them?
here i think i know how to show the other thread with my recent pics of the plants
http://boards.cannabis.com/showthread.php?t=60575
Growingreen23
There is no question that you must use HPS or the sun for the flowering stage. Oh sure, other lights will keep the plants alive, but do you want any weed for your investments of time and money? The only other possible alternative would be MH with a red as possible bulb, but you wont get near the yeild of HPS, and you'll still have to aggressively ventalate.
For flowering I have tried everything except LED, and my understanding is that although LED's may kind of work they are no where near cost effective yet. EVERYTHING that I have tried for flowering except HPS and the sun, was a complete waste of time and money. Oh sure I got buds, but literally about 1 or 2 percent of what I would have got using HPS. I'ld say this is a good number for the flouros, window sill, and incandescants that I have tried.
The good news is anything will work pretty well for the veg. stage. Of course MH works the best, but if I could not use this I would use flourecsents. They run so cool you can put them almost right on the plants.
The important part is the flowering stage.
Hope this helps a little.
To do a grow properly with CFL's you will need about 6 per plant to get good results. Highest wattage you can. For veg get blue spectrum, and for flower get a more reddish spectrum.
Its gunner cost alot to go. The best way to sort yourself out is get a HPS w/ ballast.
You'll get good results, and not have to have lights all over the place....
It's not easy to grow cheap and get good results...
if your finances allow i would get hps. there is no comparing cfl buds to hps buds. if you do have to stay with the 42's i would get 4 or 5 more at least to get a decent yeild. i used to have a scrog cabinet with 4 42's 1 125watt vitelume cfl and a 65watt aquarium cfl strip and the yeild was about a qp every harvest.
Come to think of it, window sill was probably a little higher. Something like 10 percent of HPS.
yeah i guess it does, you're basically saying i need to get out there and get a hps system for about 150 for the three plants i want to flower. i mean i'm not worried about getting a ton cause i'm not selling i'm looking to just try what i have grown and know that i am able to do it again but better with better tools
i guess if i have not other choice then thats what i have to do
Thanks
Growingreen23
wow before i could reply there are more posts, ha ha good good now how big and hot are these hps bulbs? and for three plants we're looking around 150$ right?
Growingreen23
Since everyone is advising you to buy more stuff, here's what I would do:
Don't grow for awhile. Just keep buying weed, but buy a little less than normal to save money. Think of other ways you could spend less. Sell old crap you don't use anymore. Then, after a few months of this hardship you will have enough money to set up your grow the right way. First choice: have a dedicated flower area and a different veg area, with two lights and ballasts. That way you can harvest every 60 days or so instead of 120. Second choice: Buy a switchable ballast and have one grow area. Third choice: Do what you are trying.
Trust me I have been where you are and tried all the above choices. With all the time and money I spent fiddling about with choice 2 and 3, I could have easily paid for choice 1.
And don't forget, and this is very important: Spend some good money on ventalation. Cool tubes are great (search this if you don't know about it). Believe me you will be sorry if you don't properly ventilate. If you find out too late like I did that you don't have enough air flow, you'll have to tear everything apart and start over.
Good luck.
i agree there is one other solution ya can get some envirolitesQuote:
Originally Posted by LIP
they come in 2 sizes and 2 spectrums and are self ballasted
cheers all
why is ventalation so important besides getting the smell out? i mean i have pretty good air flow with just the fan right now and the extra cracks in the closet but it wouyld be nice to knwo the real reason. You're def right about getting it set up the right way the 1st time but i am limited for space, adn money, i mean i'm not doign this in the best of areas and if i ever got caught then lets just say i'm not goign to be n the best of places. I am only in this area of where i'm living now for only about 8-9 months a year then i'm somewhere else and then back again.
Thanks for the info so far though
Growingreen23
Quote:
Originally Posted by Opie Yutts
You are SO VERY WRONG.
CFL's used properly will flower a plant perfectly. Garden Knowm will also say the same. You are so EXTREMLY WRONG. Before giving info, you need to know yourself.
so LIP you're saying that i can keep what i have? i don't need a new spectrum just change the cycle of light?
Growingreen23
If you have got CFL's then you can veg your plant and flower! Yes.
You wont get as much as a HPS would get you, but you WILL get bud, as long as you have alot of lights, near it, at the highest wattage you can get.
I am about to do a grow with only CFL's to prove how good it can be if used properly.
Goodluck! Keeep us posted.
ok thanks i will def try with what i have 1st just wondering though how much is a good HPS system though
Growingreen23
Quote:
Originally Posted by justaseed
i fotgot too mention that the 4oz of buds i harvested from that grow every 2months were pretty good buds. all my friiends loved them. so cfl's will do a decent job but if you want the super dense buds you need hps. as i said before you could get a security light and convert it pretty cheaply or just use the cfls. just make sure you get at least 4-5 more.
GrowinGreen23:
When I said ventilation is very important I meant if you use high intensity lighting, which runs hot, or at least very warm. If you use flouros, a small oscillating fan will be sufficient. For reasons that I won??t go into, you need at least a little air flow. More than a little would be better. A little is enough for flouros, but not for HID. Also for stealth reasons, you may not want a big noisy fan blowing. (These can be made sound resistant though.) If you explain your intentions at a hydro store, they can recommend some proper ventilation. Of course say tomatoes, not the M word. The needs of weed are interchangeable with the needs of tomatoes.
Now that I know more about your situation I will change my advice. Since you are moving soon, I would just buy a few more high wattage flouros, keep them as close as possible to the plants, and cross your fingers on the yield. Watch the plants closely as you keep moving the lights closer and closer. Check them often, and as soon as you notice a little brown on the leaf edges, move them back a little and keep them that far away. You will get some bud, just not a lot for the effort. Save the money for the real set up when you reside more permanently and stealthy.
I am trying to help you. I was in your situation a few years back and some people tried to help me but I didn't take all of their advice, and it wasn't long before I was sorry. Please believe me when I tell you that there is no comparison to the buds you can harvest with HPS compared to the buds you can harvest with flouros. If anyone tries to tell you different they are either lying or mistaken. I have done a lot of reading about this and have had many of my own experiences in this area. I hope you don??t take the word of anyone on this post or even this web site alone, but check other sources and see if I??m not correct. New products are coming out all the time which makes flouros more feasible, but there is still no comparison. No way around it: Lumens = bud. Fluorescents cannot create sufficient lumens to rival the lumen potential of HID unless you buy a great many of them, or a bunch of darn big, warm-running expensive ones. Has anyone out there done the math? It would be interesting to know how many 42 watt flouros it would take to equal the lumens of one 600 watt HPS. Anyone? Bhuler?
I am not saying that you can't get good bud using only flouros. I am saying that for similar amounts of money you could use your Mcgyver-like ingenuity and make some home made cool tubes and Home Depot-style ballasts and lights, and greatly increase your yield. Now ventilation is another issue, and will cost a little, but you can be creative in this area too. Get a blower out of an old furnace and some dryer ducts out of a condemned house.
As far as wattage and price I will go with professional, hydroponics store-type stuff, and this is just off the top of my head:
1 -cool tube: $120
1 -cool tube reflector: (optional) $30
1 -small 4? inline fan and 1 good 4? big one: $300
Misc. 4 inch ducting, vents, etc.: $40
1 -400 watt switchable ballast: $150-$450
1 -MH bulb: $100
1 -HPS bulb: $90-130 (get the good one)
I went with 400 watt because this would be pretty good for a few plants in about a 3 foot by 3 foot space. This is what I started with (after the flouro fiasco), and it did pretty well. I am now using 600 watt for flowering and notice a significant difference. More watts = more $, but also more bud. If you have the money go digital on the ballast. Much cooler running, longer bulb life, flicker free lighting. Keep in mind that you could go home-made and greatly reduce the price of all the above. Search the web and specifically weed forums for plans and advice.
If you are using dirt I also recommend some home-made or cheap hydroponic set up. Nutrients, air stones, tubing, a pump, a PH kit, and containers could easily be set up for less than $75. This is the single most cost effective thing you could do to increase yield. You could easily double it. See how an $80 ??Emily??s Garden? is set up, then make a better one for about $30. And Hydro can be as easy as dirt ?? literally.
Look here for an economy 400 watt lighting setup:
http://www.atlantishydroponics.com/M...gory_Code=BREF
And mid-range fluorescents for a similar price:
http://www.atlantishydroponics.com/M...y_Code=fluores
I don??t work for these guys or recommend them. They were just first in the search engine. You may find better prices with a bit of digging.
LIP:
Sorry man, didn't mean to offend you. However if you do a little reading up you will find that most people agree with me.
I don't understand how my own experiences that actually happened to me can be SO VERY WRONG, and so EXTREMELY WRONG. That is unless I was insane or on some very good drugs and completely unaware of what was going on around me. If this was the case, I'm sure someone in my life would have mentioned it.
I am not lying when I say that I have tried every method of lighting except LEDs. My first flowering with flouros I used one 40 watt grow tube in a 1 foot square space that had every square inch covered in mylar. Talk about pitiful results. The next time I used 4 in a slightly larger space. Same suckieness. The next time I used 8, plus two standard fluorescent bulbs that supposedly were equal to 150 watts each. This time I approached something that one could conceivably label as yield. Nothing however like HPS. I may be willing to concede as much as 4 or 5 percent. I am sure that I didn??t do everything perfectly and others could get better results.
I am not an expert on fluorescent lighting, and my experience is limited to that above. I am sure with practice, patience and a lot of bulbs, one could get some decent smoke. I know the hydro stores are now carrying some big gnarly (and probably expensive) fluorescents aimed at high lumens, and I do like how cool they run. But I am guessing higher lumens and wattage means hotter running temps, thus taking away the main advantage (other than price) of flouros. I suppose with a bunch of these one may do fairly well. It would take a great deal of documentation or experience however to convince me that they can come close to the yield of HPS. I hope this doesn't upset anyone too much.
Love your icon.
Everyone:
I would love to see documentation of an actual grow experiment with the best flouros money can buy VS a home-made 600 watt HPS in a 3'x3' closet. Anyone? Comparisons should include price of electricity, price of equipment, noise, heat, odor, and of course yield. Hey, you never know, this done properly may convince me to try flouros again. Yet still? I remain a non-believer.
Peace, love, good smoke.
PS. I got curious and poked around a little. I copied this from http://www.buydutchseeds.com/cms_view.php?id=21
A bit lengthy, like this reply has turned out, but very informative and relative. Use at your own discretion, I take no responsibility, blah, blah?
LIGHT
Indoors, 2000 lumens per sq. ft. is about as low as you want to go indoors. If you get under this mark, plant growth will certainly not go as fast as possible, and internode/stem length will increase. Also, light distance to plants will be much more critical. Daily adjustments to the lamps will be necessary, meaning you get no vacations.
2500 lumens psf should be a good target, and 3000 is optimal if your going to inject or enrich CO2 levels (more on that later).
High Intensity Discharge lamps are the best solution for most indoor growers. HID lamps come in 3 basic flavors: High Pressure Sodium (HPS), Metal Halide (MH) and Mercury Vapor. Metal Halide is an improved spectrum, higher intensity Mercury Vapor design. HPS is a yellowish sort of light, maybe a bit pink or orange. Same as some street lamps.
HPS lamps can be used to grow a crop from start to finish. Tests show that the HPS crop will mature 1 week later than a similar crop under MH, but it will be a bigger yield, so it is better to wait the extra week.
The easiest HID to buy, and least expensive initially are the flourescent and mercury vapor lamps. MV will put out about 8000 lumens per 175 watts, and 150 watts of HPS puts out about 15k lumens, so HPS is almost twice as efficient. But the color spectrum from MV lamp output is not as good. HPS is high in reds, which works well for flowering, while the Metal Halide is rich in blues, needed for the best vegetative growth. Unfortunately, MV lamps provide the worst spectrum for plant growth, but are very inexpensive to purchase.They are not recommended, unless you find them free, and even then, the electricity/efficiency issues outweigh the initial costs saved.
400 watt HPS will output around 45k lumens. For every 500 watts of continuous use, you use about $20 a month in electricity, so it is evident that a lamp taking half the power to output the same lumens (or twice the lumens at the same power level) will pay for itself in a year or so, and from then on, continuous savings will be reaped. This is a simple initial cost vs. operating costs calculation, and does not take into account the faster growth and increased yield the HPS lamp will give you, due to more light being available. If this is factored into the calculation the HPS lamp will pay for itself with the first crop, when compared to MV or fluorescent lamps, since it is easily twice as efficient and grows flowers faster and bigger.
Lamp Type Watts Lumens per bulb Total efficiency
Fluorescent Bulb 40 3000 400 watts = 30k lumens
Mercury Vapor 175 8000 400 watts = 20k lumens
Metal Halide 400 36000 400 watts = 36k lumens
High P. Sodium 400 45000 400 watts = 45k lumens
Notice the Mercury Vapor lamps are less efficient than the fluorescent (FL), and can not be positioned as close to the plants, so the plants will not be able to use as much of the MV light. The light distribution is not as good either. MV lamps simply are not suitable for indoor gardening. Use flourecent, MH, or HPS lamps only. Halogen arc lamps generate too much heat and not very much light for the wattage they use, and are also not recommened, even though the light spectrum is suitable for decent growth.
There is a new type of HPS lamp called Son Agro, and it is available in a 250, 1000, and 400 watt range. The 400 is actually 430 watts; they have added 30 watts of blue to this bulb. It is a very bright lamp (53k lumens) and is made for greenhouse use. These bulbs can be purchased to replace normal HPS bulbs, so they are an option if you already own a HPS lamp. The beauty of this bulb is that you do not give up most of the advantages of MH lamps, such as minimal internode spacing and early maturation, like most HPS users do, and you have all advantages of a HPS lamp. One bulb does it all.
Internodal length of plants grown with the Son Agro are the shortest ever seen with any type of lamp. Plants grown under this lamp are incredibly bushy, compact and grow very fast. Son Agro bulbs however, do not last as long as normal HPS bulbs. There is something like a 25% difference in bulb life.
Metal Halide (MH) is another option, and is available in both a 36k and 40k lumen bulbs for the 400 watt size. The Super Bulb (40k) is about $10-15 more, and provides an extra 4000 lumens. I think the Super Bulb may last longer; if so, that makes it the way to go. Halide light is more blue and better than straight HPS for vegetative growth, but is much less efficient than HPS. It is possible to purchase conversion bulbs for a MH lamp that convert it to HPS, but the cost of the conversion bulb is more expensive than the color corrected Son Agro bulb, so I would recommend just buying the Son Agro HPS. Even though it costs more initially, you get more for your energy dollar later, and it is much easier to hang than 10 fluorescent tubes.
If you have a MH 36k lumen lamp burning at 400 watts and a 53k lumen HPS burning at 430 watts, which is better efficiency wise? Which will provide a better yield? Obviously, the Son Agro HPS, but of course, the initial cost is higher. Actually, the ballast will add about 10% to these wattage numbers.
The Son Agro bulb will prove much better than the MH for any purpose. The MH bulb does not last as long, but is cheaper. Compare $36 for a 400 watt MH bulb vs. $40 for the HPS bulb. Add $15 for the Son Agro HPS. The HPS bulb life is twice as long. 10k hours vs. 21k hours. The Son Agro is 16k hours or so. Still, longer bulb life and more light add up to more for your energy dollar long term.
Horizontal mounting of any HID is a good idea, as this will boost by 30% the amount of light that actually reaches the plants. Most HIDs sold for indoor garden use these days are of this horizontal mounting arrangement.
HPS is much less expensive to operate than any other type of lamp, but comes in the 70 watt size at the home improvement stores. This size is not very efficient, but blows away FL in efficiency, so they might be an alternative to FL for very small operations, like 9 sq. feet or less. Over 9 sqr. feet, you need more light than one of these lamps can provide, but you could use two of them. 70 watt HPS lamps cost about $40 each, complete. Two lamps would be 140 watts putting out about 12k lumens, so it is better than FL, but a 150 watt HPS puts out about 18k lumens, the bulb life is longer, bulbs are cheaper and the lamp more efficient to operate. The biggest problem is that the mid size lamps like the 150 and 250 watt HPS are almost as expensive to buy as the larger 400. For this reason, if you have room for the larger lamp, buy the 400. If your going pro, a 1080 watt model is available too, but you might find there is better light distribution from two 400 rather than one large lamp. Of course, the two smaller lamps are more expensive to purchase than one large lamp, so most people choose the larger lamp for bigger operations.
Heat buildup in the room is a factor with HID lamps, and just how much light the plants can use is determined by temperature, CO2 levels, nutrient availability, PH, and other factors. Too big of a lamp for a space will make constant venting necessary, and then there is no way to enrich CO2, since it is getting blown out of the room right away.
Bulb Costs: the bulb cost on the 70 watt HPS is $24, the 150 is only $30, and the 400 is only $40. So you will spend more to replace two 70 watt bulbs than you will to replace one 400 watt HPS. (Go figure.) Add that up with the lower resale value on the 70s (practically nothing) and the fact that they are being modified and are not suited to this application, and it becomes evident that $189 for a 250 HPS lamp, or $219 for a 400, might just be worth the price. Keep in mind that for $30 more, you can have the larger lamp (400watt) and it puts out 20k lumens more light than the smaller lamp. Not a bad deal!
Here is the breakdown on prices (from memory):
Type Complete Cost Bulb Cost Bulb Life Lumens
HPS 400 $219 $40 18k hours 50k
MH 400 $175 $37 10k hours 36k
Son Agro400 $235 $55 15k hours 53k
Super MH400 $190 $45 ?? 40k
MH 250 $149 $32 ?? 21k
HPS 250 $165 $36 ?? 27k
HPS agro250 $180 $53 ?? 30k
MH 150 $139 $25 ?? 14k
HPS 175 $150 $30 ?? 17k
If your looking for these types of lamps, look in the Yellow Pages under gardening, nursuries, and lighting for indoor gardening stores in your area.
LIP:
Could you please document your upcoming flouro grow. Things that would be great would be cost of electricity, type and cost of lighting, type of nutes or dirt, yield, grow area, number of plants, specific timing of cloning, planting and light schedules. I still have not completely given up on flouros. I guess I still am hanging on to hope because they run so cool and you don't have to spend a lot of money on ventaltion, thus cutting down on noise too. Oh and some pictures would be great too.
Good luck. I hope you get a bunch.
If you look on ebay, a 400w hps lighting system can be had for $110us shipping (to the lower 48 states) included. Here's the link, Cheers