My mom is trying to convert me to Christianity!

She came over last night, and we dicussed what it meant to be a Christian, and how she thought I was wrong for denying Christianity.

I told her that I would gladly join the flock if she, or anyone else could convince me it was the right thing to do. I'm fairly open minded, and Christianity along with a number of other spiritual schools of thought have been on my mind for ages.

I have several Bibles, along with many other books on other types of spiritual beliefs. Kabbala, paganism, mormanism, etc...

None of them has convinced me to join up, and sign on the dotted line! I do want to talk about christianity, though. I realize that my mother wants the best for me, but I have reservations about her belief, and I hold some strong moral disagreement when it comes to the christian walk of life.

Anyone care to help out what my mother calls a "lost soul"?

Tell me about atonement, and the concept behind giving your sins to Jesus...

Any Christians up for some civil discussion, and/or debate? I promise that I'll keep an open mind.

I'm doing this for my mother, btw...

Cannot help you with your Chrisitianity questions but I hope you find what you are searching for. :)

I used to call myself a Christian when I was a child, mostly because my parents said we were a Christian family, but when I actually started looking at the Bible I decided I just couldn't associate myself with a religion based on that book.

For instance, in the New Testament we are told not to fight against tyrants:

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Originally Posted by 1 Peter 2:18

Servants, be subject to your masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward.

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And that wives should unquestioningly submit to their husbands in all affairs:

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Originally Posted by Ephesians 5:22-24

Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.

For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.

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And of course, Jesus also believed in the eternal damnation of hell. I can't fathom why any person who believes in love and forgiveness would support a "justice" system in which one is tortured infinitely for a finite number of evil deeds, with no chance of forgiveness ever. Bertrand Russell said it best in his speech Why I Am Not A Christian:

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There is one very serious defect to my mind in Christ's moral character, and that is that He believed in hell. I do not myself feel that any person that is really profoundly humane can believe in everlasting punishment. Christ certainly as depicted in the Gospels did believe in everlasting punishment, and one does find repeatedly a vindictive fury against those people who would not listen to His preaching -- an attitude which is not uncommon with preachers, but which does somewhat detract from superlative excellence. You do not, for instance, find that attitude in Socrates. You find him quite bland and urbane toward the people who would not listen to him; and it is, to my mind, far more worthy of a sage to take that line than to take the line of indignation. You probably all remember the sorts of things that Socrates was saying when he was dying, and the sort of things that he generally did say to people who did not agree with him.

You will find that in the Gospels Christ said: "Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell." That was said to people who did not like His preaching. It is not really to my mind quite the best tone, and there are a great many of these things about hell. There is, of course, the familiar text about the sin against the Holy Ghost: "Whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven him neither in this world nor in the world to come." That text has caused an unspeakable amount of misery in the world, for all sorts of people have imagined that they have committed the sin against the Holy Ghost, and thought that it would not be forgiven them either in this world or in the world to come. I really do not think that a person with a proper degree of kindliness in his nature would have put fears and terrors of this sort into the world.

Then Christ says, "The Son of Man shall send forth His angels, and they shall gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity, and shall cast them into a furnace of fire; there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth"; and He goes on about the wailing and gnashing of teeth. It comes in one verse after another, and it is quite manifest to the reader that there is a certain pleasure in contemplating wailing and gnashing of teeth, or else it would not occur so often. Then you all, of course, remember about the sheep and the goats; how at the second coming He is going to divide the sheep from the goats, and He is going to say to the goats: "Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire." He continues: "And these shall go away into everlasting fire." Then He says again, "If thy hand offend thee, cut it off; it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched, where the worm dieth not and the fire is not quenched." He repeats that again and again also. I must say that I think all this doctrine, that hell-fire is a punishment for sin, is a doctrine of cruelty. It is a doctrine that put cruelty into the world, and gave the world generations of cruel torture; and the Christ of the Gospels, if you could take Him as his chroniclers represent Him, would certainly have to be considered partly responsible for that.

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If you ask me, the Tao Te Ching makes a lot more sense.

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Originally Posted by Oneironaut

I used to call myself a Christian when I was a child, mostly because my parents said we were a Christian family, but when I actually started looking at the Bible I decided I just couldn't associate myself with a religion based on that book.

For instance, in the New Testament we are told not to fight against tyrants:

And that wives should unquestioningly submit to their husbands in all affairs:

And of course, Jesus also believed in the eternal damnation of hell. I can't fathom why any person who believes in love and forgiveness would support a "justice" system in which one is tortured infinitely for a finite number of evil deeds, with no chance of forgiveness ever. Bertrand Russell said it best in his speech Why I Am Not A Christian:

If you ask me, the Tao Te Ching makes a lot more sense.

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I call myself a 'reformed' Christian. Meaning, I once bought into the dogma, but resisted when I began to age, and develop the ability to question, while seeing through the twisted reality of what it's really about, and what it ultimately does to its followers.

Anyone understand the story of Cain and Able? Why God honored Ables sacrifice, while denying Cains? It just doesn't make sense, or even add up in the least little bit!

I wish a Christian would chime in, and explain some things for me...

Btw, my mother is one of those Christians that don't believe in a literal hell, so she's not damning me to eternal tourment just yet, lol!

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Originally Posted by JunkYard

She came over last night, and we dicussed what it meant to be a Christian, and how she thought I was wrong for denying Christianity.

I told her that I would gladly join the flock if she, or anyone else could convince me it was the right thing to do. I'm fairly open minded, and Christianity along with a number of other spiritual schools of thought have been on my mind for ages.

I have several Bibles, along with many other books on other types of spiritual beliefs. Kabbala, paganism, mormanism, etc...

None of them has convinced me to join up, and sign on the dotted line! I do want to talk about christianity, though. I realize that my mother wants the best for me, but I have reservations about her belief, and I hold some strong moral disagreement when it comes to the christian walk of life.

Anyone care to help out what my mother calls a "lost soul"?

Tell me about atonement, and the concept behind giving your sins to Jesus...

Any Christians up for some civil discussion, and/or debate? I promise that I'll keep an open mind.

I'm doing this for my mother, btw...

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Firstly; what moral disagreements do you have with the christian walk of life?

Secondly; only God can truley convince you of anything in this sense. Pls don't ever "join a religion", but rather accept truth as it comes (and it may come in the form of a religion - personally it has for me) Now if you are concidering christianity, the best thing to do is to pray and ask God to show you if it's right or not. After that it's important that you read and educate yourself. In my case the more I read and prayed, the more I understood what the bible was actually talking about, and it's only ever grown since.

Btw, the christian "walk of life" is exactly what Christ did. In fact it's modeled after him, therefore read what Jesus did and who he was, not what "christians" are like or what the church does, because in my heart I know the church, as it now stands, does nothing but hide in its building. Christ was a healer; a medicine for the sick - the kindness and love in the world...and that's what he asks us to be.

The concept of Jesus forgivign sins is somethign I had a hard time with until I was more educated in the details. What christ was, was a new covenant from God for mankind. First God gave us the law (old testiment), not because he wanted us to follow it, but because he wanted us to see that we could never follow it by any human effort. God has called the law a "stumbling stone"; something for us to trip over, in order to show us what we were supposed to be like, and what is now (becuase of sin) unreachable by our human effort. As it now stands we are not perfect; we are born to SIN. Bottom line. Christ, who was concieved by the Holy Spirit, was God's child not becuase of direct lineage, but out of spiritual harmony. Jesus was God's child much like Adam was God's child before he fell into sin. That's why Jesus is called the second Adam. When Jesus lived, he lived as we were all intended to live: in direct contact and relationship with God. Jesus was God in a way we could comprehend. We can't comprehend God, and therefore none of us can Know Him, but we can comprehend Jesus because Jesus was a man. We now, through faith in Jesus, can know and understand God - we can hear God in our hearts.

God had to sacrifice Jesus because of sin. Once sin entered the world, death entered it. Jesus has told us that our sins are forgiven if we believe in God's sacrifice. And when we ask Jesus into our hearts, he becomes our heart and our mind (if we chose to let him of course). It is only because you have invited God to be inside you that you will be able to change, with God's help. Because of our sin, we must die, but because Jesus, who is God's son, died for us, God raised up again. If we believe this than Jesus is alive inside us; his Holy Spirit is now what we have, rather than our own spirit of sinful nature, God does the same for us: we may find hope in our faith, much like in the Old Testiment where it is written "Abraham believed in God, and so God credited it to him as righteous". God asks only for our faith if we are to know him.

sorry, this is a little sloppy but hopefully it gives you a clearer perseption of why Jesus's dying was so important.

Thank you! I will give a proper response when I have a little more time...

but when I actually started looking at the Bible I decided I just couldn't associate myself with a religion based on that book.

--on the contrary, I know the bible can be taken in the wrong way if you chose, but reading it honestly might paint a different picture for you.

For instance, in the New Testament we are told not to fight against tyrants:

Servants, be subject to your masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward.

--God has put us where we are for reasons. In the case of masters and slaves what God is saying is that whatever your roll is, you should pursue it with all your heart.

Ephesians 6
Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ. 6Obey them not only to win their favor when their eye is on you, but like slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from your heart. 7Serve wholeheartedly, as if you were serving the Lord, not men, 8because you know that the Lord will reward everyone for whatever good he does, whether he is slave or free.


And that wives should unquestioningly submit to their husbands in all affairs:

--It also says that husbands should love their wives. That is naturally how a husband/wife would best get a long. I've experienced this; women need to be loved and to know they are loved. Men who are called by God to do something need to have patient wives who will not attempt to stop them.

Ephesians 5
Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. 23For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. 24Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.
25Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her
In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29After all, no one ever hated his own body, but he feeds and cares for it, just as Christ does the churchâ?? 30for we are members of his body. 31"For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh."[c] 32This is a profound mysteryâ??but I am talking about Christ and the church. 33However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.


And of course, Jesus also believed in the eternal damnation of hell. I can't fathom why any person who believes in love and forgiveness would support a "justice" system in which one is tortured infinitely for a finite number of evil deeds, with no chance of forgiveness ever. Bertrand Russell said it best in his speech Why I Am Not A Christian:

--Romans
18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualitiesâ??his eternal power and divine natureâ??have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

The key is that last line. We who never accept God; who consistently say no when God knocks in our hearts, are without excuse. God has called every person here in some way; perhaps God has led you to a forum where his truth is being discussed, perhaps it's the missionairies that came last week. What I'm saying is that God, who has written himself into our hearts, is continually trying to call us, and the only way we could not hear Him is if we continually choose not to listen; the alterantive to God is essentailly what we know as "bad", therefore when we are doing good we are following God, but the bad thigns we do lead us down a path further and further away from God, so that when we die, God is no longer anywhere to be found.

--If you ask me, the Tao Te Ching makes a lot more sense.[/QUOTE]

I've noticed such a trend in eastern philosophy and religion. I believe this is because the western world itself has been crumbling morally; we realise this and blame the "belief system" that is most popular, but in actuallity I think it's a cultural flaw.

One thing you never actually told us Junkyard, do you believe in god?

personally though, I think you should have your relationship with god in your own way. If you don't agree with a lot of the teachings of christianity, then I would think it would be better to have the faith that's modeled after your own logic. I don't believe in god myself, but I think an omnipitant all-knowing being would be more concerned with the type of person you are, not the groups you join. after all, these groups (christianity, islam, etc) were designed as a guide to your relationship with god. Jesus never said you have to be a christian (as many people think), he said you should head his teachings. You don't need a title to learn from him.

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Originally Posted by JunkYard

I call myself a 'reformed' Christian. Meaning, I once bought into the dogma, but resisted when I began to age, and develop the ability to question, while seeing through the twisted reality of what it's really about, and what it ultimately does to its followers.

Anyone understand the story of Cain and Able? Why God honored Ables sacrifice, while denying Cains? It just doesn't make sense, or even add up in the least little bit!

I wish a Christian would chime in, and explain some things for me...

Btw, my mother is one of those Christians that don't believe in a literal hell, so she's not damning me to eternal tourment just yet, lol!

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but if you read the story of Cain and Able, you will see this:

Then the LORD said to Cain, "Why are you angry? Why is your face downcast? 7 If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must master it."

In the old testiment God demands animal sacrifice for forgiveness of sins. Keeping in mind that during the time of Moses, who wrote genesis, this was already a well known fact. On reading genesis, one might not already know that, so that's just a little background info.

Needless to say God looks favorably on Able, because Able was, for some reason, able to hear God a little clearer; to know what God was really asking for. Cain brought him "some fruits of the soil", but Able brought "fat portions from some of the firstborn of his flock". When Cain is angry God says "dude, if you had listened, you too would be looked at favorably"

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Originally Posted by mrdevious

but I think an omnipitant all-knowing being would be more concerned with the type of person you are, not the groups you join. after all, these groups (christianity, islam, etc) were designed as a guide to your relationship with god. Jesus never said you have to be a christian (as many people think), he said you should head his teachings. You don't need a title to learn from him.

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You're very right. The reason I do call myself a "christian" is because I follow "christ". The label is what comes with the beliefs, not the other way around.

Jesus does, however, say that the only way to know God is to know Him

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Originally Posted by Pyramidsonmars

--on the contrary, I know the bible can be taken in the wrong way if you chose, but reading it honestly might paint a different picture for you.

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Who decides what is the "right way" and the "wrong way" to read it? You?

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--God has put us where we are for reasons. In the case of masters and slaves what God is saying is that whatever your roll is, you should pursue it with all your heart.

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So if your role is that of a black slave being whipped on a plantation, you should pursue that role with all your heart? If you're a Jew in Nazi Germany and your masters are sending you to the concentration camps, you should pursue that role with all your heart? Come on. It's perfectly okay for slaves to reject the social role assigned to them and fight for freedom. If you can't see this basic truth then, well, I feel sorry for you.

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--It also says that husbands should love their wives. That is naturally how a husband/wife would best get a long. I've experienced this; women need to be loved and to know they are loved. Men who are called by God to do something need to have patient wives who will not attempt to stop them.

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Why should the wife play the inferior role? Why should it not be the wife's right to have a patient husband who will not attempt to stop her? Because she has a vagina? Just because it says you're supposed to be nice to your wife doesn't change the fact that the Bible is essentially telling all wives to be slaves to their husband's will. And that is blatant sexism no matter how you look at it. It's the 21st century, man. We no longer treat women as second-class citizens, and the world is much better that way.

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The key is that last line. We who never accept God; who consistently say no when God knocks in our hearts, are without excuse. God has called every person here in some way; perhaps God has led you to a forum where his truth is being discussed, perhaps it's the missionairies that came last week. What I'm saying is that God, who has written himself into our hearts, is continually trying to call us, and the only way we could not hear Him is if we continually choose not to listen; the alterantive to God is essentailly what we know as "bad", therefore when we are doing good we are following God, but the bad thigns we do lead us down a path further and further away from God, so that when we die, God is no longer anywhere to be found.

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Well, your God hasn't done a good enough job at trying to call me, because my telephone isn't ringing. I have looked at the world around me, and I have not found one piece of conclusive evidence which would prove the existence of God or gods. If there is such a thing as God/gods, he/they would know that all I want is to see some conclusive proof. Why can't he/they write a message in the stars? Why can't he/they appear in my room and say "Hey, man, this is the one true religion"? It's not that I'm "refusing to listen" to your God any more than you are refusing to listen to Vishnu, or Zeus, or Thor. If any of these gods existed, they could easily convince everybody of their existence. But they don't. Either they don't exist, or they want me to continue being an atheist for some reason. All gods in all religions have one thing in common: they are completely invisible and completely silent. Ever wonder why?

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I've noticed such a trend in eastern philosophy and religion. I believe this is because the western world itself has been crumbling morally; we realise this and blame the "belief system" that is most popular, but in actuallity I think it's a cultural flaw.

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I don't think the world is "crumbling morally". I think, on the contrary, that we've made great advances toward becoming more moral over the centuries. And this has a lot to do with rejecting ideas that have traditionally been promoted by religious institutions (especially Christian ones), such as slavery, sexism and homophobia.

Ya been down that road before. I know all the ins and outs of fundemental Christianity. For one..tell her that there are contradicting resurrection stories, as Luke says there were 2 angels at the tomb...but in Mark there is just a man at the tomb. Remember that Mark was supposedly the first canonical gospel written (besides the Gospel of Thomas which some say is the Q source) and Matthew and Luke were just expanded versions of Mark. John is in a category of its own.

However since there is a contradiction, the whole faith shatters because they are told the Bible is infalliable without contradictions. See how she reacts to this.

Tell her that the true meaning of Christianity is love, and if we all love with compassion, we will all become Christs!

Remember..."the kingdom of God is within you!"

Well, i'll join the converstion and try to do my best. First, im a christian. I was exposed to it as a child but never really believed it until I was about 16.

First off though, i'll talk about hell. The LORD warns us about hell a lot in the new testament. It's not really something a believer should ever worry about and is often looked at as something people used to scare others into christianity. Heres my explination of hell

Every animal (excluding humans) were created with only one form, the physical form. Humans were created with both a physical body and a spirit. God is spirit and humans were made in the image of God, therefore our spirit is this image. The LORD is eternal and so is our spirit, or at least immortal. Since our spirits never die, and this is the way God ment it to be, we will either spend eternity with our God, or in hell. After the white thorn judgment, humans will be granted their new bodies (thoes whos spirits did not recive one at rapture) and these ones will be like our spirit, immortal. The first man to recive this new body was Jesus when he rose from the dead. Anyway, after this judgment, people will procede to either the new earth, or the lake of fire (aka hell). Know this, hell was not intended for humans, it was the final place for satan to be punished but humans who deny the LORD will also be put here. This is simply because the LORD will not kill what he made immortal. God has made PLENTY of warnings in the bible of hell so noone can plead ignorance. The LORD loves us and wishes we pick the path of life, the path to eternal life with God in his kingdom. He definatly does not want us to be in hell.

Any questions and i'll try to answer to the best of my ability.

I call myself a christian i guess. I believe in jesus, and think that for the most part people would be better off if they listened to him, but there are a lot of things in the dogma that i do not agree with. I am really interested in gnostic christianity though. It almost seems like the 'true' christianity that jesus wanted. There is too much control in organized religion.

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Originally Posted by halo

I call myself a christian i guess. I believe in jesus, and think that for the most part people would be better off if they listened to him, but there are a lot of things in the dogma that i do not agree with. I am really interested in gnostic christianity though. It almost seems like the 'true' christianity that jesus wanted. There is too much control in organized religion.

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If there is actualy too much controle as far as the church goes, then thats because of man. It's not supposed to be that way, the purpose of the church is to spread the word of christianity and to gather the believers to learn. Its really not supposed to do anything other then that. I find one of the most important parts of being a christian is very individualistic. People are supposed to have a relation with the LORD on the most personal level possible. Although you may not be inclined to speak and ask questions and not get immidiate answers, I can assure you they will come at some point. Really, "christian" is just a name to catagorize things, from the teachings of a bible, true christianity is the path to life.

Fake it... It'll make your mamma a happy woman, and she'll die knowing her son is going to meet her up in heaven. Hopefully not for a long time of course. That way if there isn't an afterlife she'll have a happier currentlife, and if there is some idealistic "christians only" reserved heaven, you're going to hell either way.

Nobody loses.

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Firstly; what moral disagreements do you have with the christian walk of life?

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This will be obvious to you soon enough.

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Secondly; only God can truley convince you of anything in this sense. Pls don't ever "join a religion", but rather accept truth as it comes (and it may come in the form of a religion - personally it has for me) Now if you are concidering christianity, the best thing to do is to pray and ask God to show you if it's right or not. After that it's important that you read and educate yourself. In my case the more I read and prayed, the more I understood what the bible was actually talking about, and it's only ever grown since.

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Ok, I believe in something, what that something is (God) I'm not entirely sure. I'm also very uncertain wether it/he/she interferes with anything mankind does on earth. Perhaps, I belive God is simply the creative, life giving force of the universe?

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Btw, the christian "walk of life" is exactly what Christ did. In fact it's modeled after him, therefore read what Jesus did and who he was, not what "christians" are like or what the church does, because in my heart I know the church, as it now stands, does nothing but hide in its building. Christ was a healer; a medicine for the sick - the kindness and love in the world...and that's what he asks us to be.

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I can honor, and respect what Jesus did as a person, and what I believe his message to be. (Love) But, The Christian walk is not 'exactly' what Jesus did. Jesus gave himself for sacrifice, whereas Christians put all their sins on him, for 'him' to pay for in attempt to weasle out of responsibility for their actions on earth. (Moral delimma)

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The concept of Jesus forgivign sins is somethign I had a hard time with until I was more educated in the details. What christ was, was a new covenant from God for mankind. First God gave us the law (old testiment), not because he wanted us to follow it, but because he wanted us to see that we could never follow it by any human effort. God has called the law a "stumbling stone"; something for us to trip over, in order to show us what we were supposed to be like, and what is now (becuase of sin) unreachable by our human effort. As it now stands we are not perfect; we are born to SIN.

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Perfection is in the eye of the beholder. Life is meant to build character, imo. and through our mistakes, and shortcomings, and trials, and errors we learn, and become better persons. (if you embrace the bad with the good) We were never meant to be 'perfect' as far as I'm concerned. Although, I think striving for perfection is an honorable endeavor.

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Bottom line. Christ, who was concieved by the Holy Spirit, was God's child not becuase of direct lineage, but out of spiritual harmony. Jesus was God's child much like Adam was God's child before he fell into sin. That's why Jesus is called the second Adam. When Jesus lived, he lived as we were all intended to live: in direct contact and relationship with God. Jesus was God in a way we could comprehend. We can't comprehend God, and therefore none of us can Know Him, but we can comprehend Jesus because Jesus was a man. We now, through faith in Jesus, can know and understand God - we can hear God in our hearts.

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I don't beleive that Jesus was God's son anymore than we, all mankind, are God's sons, and daughters. I don't think we can ever truly understand God, but the bilble says that if you know love...you know God. I believe the 'holy spirit' is love, btw...

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God had to sacrifice Jesus because of sin. Once sin entered the world, death entered it. Jesus has told us that our sins are forgiven if we believe in God's sacrifice. And when we ask Jesus into our hearts, he becomes our heart and our mind (if we chose to let him of course). It is only because you have invited God to be inside you that you will be able to change, with God's help. Because of our sin, we must die, but because Jesus, who is God's son, died for us, God raised up again. If we believe this than Jesus is alive inside us; his Holy Spirit is now what we have, rather than our own spirit of sinful nature, God does the same for us: we may find hope in our faith, much like in the Old Testiment where it is written "Abraham believed in God, and so God credited it to him as righteous". God asks only for our faith if we are to know him.

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I don't think I believe in the concept of 'sin', either. There are certainly positives, and negatives, but I think both are nescessary for a balanced life. Remember, we learn from our mistakes which makes sin something desired if you are to grow into better persons.

I also don't get why God is so angry, and vengful, and blood thirsty, either. The old testament was bad enough with its 'blood' sacrifices, but the the new testament took it a step further, and actually incorporated 'human' sacrifice. (Another moral delima)

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sorry, this is a little sloppy but hopefully it gives you a clearer perseption of why Jesus's dying was so important.

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I still don't see why Jesus' death was so important. I believe in taking responsibility for my actions, and I fully accept any, and all consequences because of them. Why do Christians feel the need to 'cover' their sins, and let another be punished for what they did. I'll tell you something, I have a son myself, and if my son was locked up for what someone else did, I'd be PISSED! Why would God honor anyone who attempts to weasle out of responsibilty, who actually make concious effort to put their burdons on someone else and allow them to 'suffer' for what they did?

Again, I can respect Jesus for trying, but the whole concept has to do with escaping responsiblity. I don't get it! Why not offer up yourselve's instead of offering up another? This would seem to hold more moral ground in my eyes...

I don't understand why a loving, merciful God would demand innocent blood to be sacrificed to appease him...It's just sadistic!

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Originally Posted by JunkYard

Ok, I believe in something, what that something is (God) I'm not entirely sure. I'm also very uncertain wether it/he/she interferes with anything mankind does on earth. Perhaps, I belive God is simply the creative, life giving force of the universe?

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Maybe you can use praying, or attending church, or whatever, to pay homage to the fact that God did make the Universe and he made it for you.

Kind of, like, eating turkey on Thanksgiving.

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Originally Posted by beachguy in thongs

Maybe you can use praying, or attending church, or whatever, to pay homage to the fact that God did make the Universe and he made it for you.

Kind of, like, eating turkey on Thanksgiving.

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Not much on praying, and I can't stand church, but I'll pay homage by enjoying, embracing, and living my life to the best of my ability. I figure we may has well enjoy our time here, and strive to make it (Life) better for future generations. Seems only appropriate to accept whats been given, and embrace both the good and bad in life. I think both serve a purpose for our empowerment. (Humankind)

I think I may be considered somewhat humanist...I truly believe that mankind has the potential, and power to be, and do great things for creation.

We are the dominant species, after all. I think it is up to us to usher in a paradise 'of sorts' on earth. I think it is unwise to leave it all up to a god, or Jesus to do it for us...

Responsibility is ours. It's high time we realize that 'we' are in control of the fate of mankind...not some God that may, or may not exist at all!

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Originally Posted by JunkYard

Ok, I believe in something, what that something is (God) I'm not entirely sure. I'm also very uncertain wether it/he/she interferes with anything mankind does on earth. Perhaps, I belive God is simply the creative, life giving force of the universe?

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Well Jesus calls those who believe in Him His "body". Further more, if you read Acts, or the letters from Paul, you will see an elaboration on this. Believers have something called the Holy Spirit. The bible tells us that this is literally a "person"; the "teacher" and "councelor", sent by Jesus when he returned to heaven. That is why after he leaves the second time he tells his diciples to go to Jerusalem and pray until they recieve the "gift" Jesus had promised them (the Holy Spirit). It is through Christ in us that we have the Holy Spirit, the teacher who guides our thoughts and helps us identify God, and whatever truth he gives us. Only someone with the Holy Spirit will really be able to see what God is telling us through scripture, and it is then up to us to share that with non-believers in a way that God provides us. Even these words I'm typing now are under the influence of the Holy Spirit, otherwise, in my darkness I would have no undrestanding. In Romans Paul writes about this:

Romans 1
For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.

25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creatorâ??who is forever praised. Amen.

Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

What is being written here is about all of us; humanity as a whole. What sin is, by definition, is a seperation from God. Once you say something hurtfull to your sister, you've turned your back away from God; you've denied him. The second you say in your heart "this poor man doesn't get my money" you've said this same thing to God. We don't want to think about it, but you can't ever turn back towards God except by first asking Him for forgiveness. Are we allowed to do this? Maybe. I definetly think God coming and dying for us was a pretty good sign that we can. This is where Christ comes in.

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Originally Posted by JunkYard

I can honor, and respect what Jesus did as a person, and what I believe his message to be. (Love) But, The Christian walk is not 'exactly' what Jesus did. Jesus gave himself for sacrifice, whereas Christians put all their sins on him, for 'him' to pay for in attempt to weasle out of responsibility for their actions on earth. (Moral delimma)

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Christians live in constant sacrifice (well yes, some do and some don't). It's called sacrifice only here on earth. In heaven it's simply the way of the land. Christ asks us that we constantly give to our brothers and sisters (not only those in our family, but outside as well) when they are in need. If we are giving, God is providing us an abundance, and endless source to give from. Asking Christ to forgive my sins is the first step; the second is to pursue the Kingdom of God; to be as best I can a "child of God" as God sees fit. There is no "weasling out" of responsibility, unless of course you would say that any time you say "sorry" to someone you wrong you're weasling out of them staying angry. God doesn't wish to be angry at us; he holds no grudge once we come to Him humbled and recieve the forgiveness he has given us. God is love, and one of the most powerfull forms of love is forgiveness; it is the backbone to re-establishing a relationship with our Creator that we are responsible for breaking.

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Originally Posted by JunkYard

Perfection is in the eye of the beholder. Life is meant to build character, imo. and through our mistakes, and shortcomings, and trials, and errors we learn, and become better persons. (if you embrace the bad with the good) We were never meant to be 'perfect' as far as I'm concerned. Although, I think striving for perfection is an honorable endeavor.

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We don't ever learn, because humanity has been making the same mistakes since it first begun. Feeling guilt is a sign that we have sinned, though some feel less guilt than others because they kill themselves in that way. Striving for perfection is impossible for our Flesh; it is born hating, and slandering and gossiping. Our souls can be perfect by being baptized; washed in the blood of Christ.

Revelations reads:
13Then one of the elders asked me, "These in white robesâ??who are they, and where did they come from?"
14I answered, "Sir, you know."
And he said, "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15Therefore,
"they are before the throne of God
and serve him day and night in his temple;
and he who sits on the throne will spread his tent over them.

[QUOTE=JunkYard]
I don't beleive that Jesus was God's son anymore than we, all mankind, are God's sons, and daughters. I don't think we can ever truly understand God, but the bilble says that if you know love...you know God. I believe the 'holy spirit' is love, btw...

You're very right to say Jesus was God's son anymore than we are. The truth of the matter is that Jesus is in direct lineage of David, who is a decendent of Abraham, who, if you trace the line back to it's beginnings, is a decendent of Adam - the first child of God. We are no longer God's children, because we have cut our relationship off with him. Christ was God's only child (at that time) because God more or less had to make a "new Adam" (like I said Jesus is referred to a couple of times as the "second Adam" - the new "only child") It is by being baptized by Christ that we become christ - or I should say He becomes alive in us. That is when we can be children of God once more, who do what God asks us to do obediently, serving Him every day in what ways he calls us too. The "Holy Spirit" is love like God is love, but love isn't the Holy Spirit. That's a misunderstanding of scripture. The Holy Spirit is the one who shows us God's will. "He only repeats what he hears God say".

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Originally Posted by JunkYard

I don't think I believe in the concept of 'sin', either. There are certainly positives, and negatives, but I think both are nescessary for a balanced life. Remember, we learn from our mistakes which makes sin something desired if you are to grow into better persons.

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Who's to say that you ever become better when you wrong someone? The only mistakes I've ever learned from are the big ones, and even then I often fall victim to the same temptations.

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Originally Posted by JunkYard

I also don't get why God is so angry, and vengful, and blood thirsty, either. The old testament was bad enough with its 'blood' sacrifices, but the the new testament took it a step further, and actually incorporated 'human' sacrifice. (Another moral delima)

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Watch the news - that is why God is so angry. My friend, what I really must stress is that you (and I, and everyone else) closely watch our own actions, and really pay attention to the intentions of our hearts when we do things. Do we do things for selfish reasons? Yes. Do we hate others in our hearts? Yes. Do we feed everyone who needs it? No, infact we take more for ourselves. All of us...you do it too my friend; so do I. God demanded blood as sacrifice. Death infact was the result of sin. And in the old testiment, when one had sinned (which happens more than they realised I'm sure) God asked them to sacrifice something in their place. When we live our sinful lives, we are already dead to God, who lives outside of time. Life is found in christ, and we are once again alive in God's eyes.

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Originally Posted by JunkYard

I still don't see why Jesus' death was so important. I believe in taking responsibility for my actions, and I fully accept any, and all consequences because of them. Why do Christians feel the need to 'cover' their sins, and let another be punished for what they did. I'll tell you something, I have a son myself, and if my son was locked up for what someone else did, I'd be PISSED! Why would God honor anyone who attempts to weasle out of responsibilty, who actually make concious effort to put their burdons on someone else and allow them to 'suffer' for what they did?

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Accepting the thing I've done wrong, saying I'm sorry to God, and accepting the new conditions that God has laid down is taking responsibility. The new conditions are that God's child has died instead of me (but he didn't die! He was raised from the dead; he defeated death. That's the promise. We, as children of God, will not die either) and that I have to accept that, believe in it, and allow it to transform me. Having God's sacrifice Jesus LIVE inside me means I might have a hope of repenting. Because I, on my own, am futile in understanding even the things I do wrong.

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Originally Posted by JunkYard

Again, I can respect Jesus for trying, but the whole concept has to do with escaping responsiblity. I don't get it! Why not offer up yourselve's instead of offering up another? This would seem to hold more moral ground in my eyes...

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Offering yourself means death. It means saying "Ok God, I continue to do the thigns I do, but I'll pay the penalty after". That penalty is death.

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Originally Posted by JunkYard

I don't understand why a loving, merciful God would demand innocent blood to be sacrificed to appease him...It's just sadistic!

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Because God was alive in Jesus, Jesus willingly did this. Jesus shed His blood as His sacrifice to God. Jesus did this out of pure love, because he wanted us to escape eternal death. There is no greater gift in the history of humanity. Jesus was raised from the dead; his blood baptizes the spirits of those who believe in him. Jesus is the Lamb, the sacrificial Lamb, out of God's love that is inside him, and because of this God has placed him at his right hand. This is the sacrifice that each and every person should be willing to give, but because Jesus was the first Child of God in the world, he did it.

On reading the bible, I've found parts that I couldn't explain, or even disagreed with. The problem isn't in those things themselves, but in my understanding of them. Fortunatly the bible ties itself together, and my doubts are often cleared up by other verses referring to those things in a different light. Reading and educating yourself is the only real way to understand what the bible is talking about in any given place. Some significant thigns won't become significant until you learn background information.

Anyway, God is alive right now in your intrest in Christianity. I will only ever tell you the facts - I'm not trying to convert you or tamper with your beliefs, but rather to offer my voice in any way that helps. God bless!

wtf... this post sucks... :( clicked on this by mistake

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Originally Posted by gramzzilla420

wtf... this post sucks... :( clicked on this by mistake

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so you made it even suckier w/ a useless post.. :confused: (no offense)

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Originally Posted by ADaisyChain

Fake it... It'll make your mamma a happy woman, and she'll die knowing her son is going to meet her up in heaven. Hopefully not for a long time of course. That way if there isn't an afterlife she'll have a happier currentlife, and if there is some idealistic "christians only" reserved heaven, you're going to hell either way.

Nobody loses.

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makes me happy i never told my ridiculously religous grandma that i'm agnostic

-good discussion though guys, always good to see different interpretations of being labeled a Christian

I just believe that you should be nice to others just because it's nice. I don't believe in punishment for bad choices, but I wholly think that people should just respect one another for being their brothers and sisters, so to speak. I believe there is some force out there that binds everything and created us all. It could just be an infinite well of energy considering there is no such thing as matter (Yes, oneironaut, it's true. Matter is nothing but supercondensed energy. Any amount of matter can act like energy in a wave under the proper circumstances. Physics really is a great class to take)

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Originally Posted by Pyramidsonmars

Well Jesus calls those who believe in Him His "body". Further more, if you read Acts, or the letters from Paul, you will see an elaboration on this. Believers have something called the Holy Spirit. The bible tells us that this is literally a "person"; the "teacher" and "councelor", sent by Jesus when he returned to heaven. That is why after he leaves the second time he tells his diciples to go to Jerusalem and pray until they recieve the "gift" Jesus had promised them (the Holy Spirit). It is through Christ in us that we have the Holy Spirit, the teacher who guides our thoughts and helps us identify God, and whatever truth he gives us. Only someone with the Holy Spirit will really be able to see what God is telling us through scripture, and it is then up to us to share that with non-believers in a way that God provides us. Even these words I'm typing now are under the influence of the Holy Spirit, otherwise, in my darkness I would have no undrestanding. In Romans Paul writes about this:

Romans 1
For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.

25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creatorâ??who is forever praised. Amen.

Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

What is being written here is about all of us; humanity as a whole. What sin is, by definition, is a seperation from God. Once you say something hurtfull to your sister, you've turned your back away from God; you've denied him. The second you say in your heart "this poor man doesn't get my money" you've said this same thing to God. We don't want to think about it, but you can't ever turn back towards God except by first asking Him for forgiveness. Are we allowed to do this? Maybe. I definetly think God coming and dying for us was a pretty good sign that we can. This is where Christ comes in.



Christians live in constant sacrifice (well yes, some do and some don't). It's called sacrifice only here on earth. In heaven it's simply the way of the land. Christ asks us that we constantly give to our brothers and sisters (not only those in our family, but outside as well) when they are in need. If we are giving, God is providing us an abundance, and endless source to give from. Asking Christ to forgive my sins is the first step; the second is to pursue the Kingdom of God; to be as best I can a "child of God" as God sees fit. There is no "weasling out" of responsibility, unless of course you would say that any time you say "sorry" to someone you wrong you're weasling out of them staying angry. God doesn't wish to be angry at us; he holds no grudge once we come to Him humbled and recieve the forgiveness he has given us. God is love, and one of the most powerfull forms of love is forgiveness; it is the backbone to re-establishing a relationship with our Creator that we are responsible for breaking.



We don't ever learn, because humanity has been making the same mistakes since it first begun. Feeling guilt is a sign that we have sinned, though some feel less guilt than others because they kill themselves in that way. Striving for perfection is impossible for our Flesh; it is born hating, and slandering and gossiping. Our souls can be perfect by being baptized; washed in the blood of Christ.

Revelations reads:
13Then one of the elders asked me, "These in white robesâ??who are they, and where did they come from?"
14I answered, "Sir, you know."
And he said, "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15Therefore,
"they are before the throne of God
and serve him day and night in his temple;
and he who sits on the throne will spread his tent over them.




Who's to say that you ever become better when you wrong someone? The only mistakes I've ever learned from are the big ones, and even then I often fall victim to the same temptations.



Watch the news - that is why God is so angry. My friend, what I really must stress is that you (and I, and everyone else) closely watch our own actions, and really pay attention to the intentions of our hearts when we do things. Do we do things for selfish reasons? Yes. Do we hate others in our hearts? Yes. Do we feed everyone who needs it? No, infact we take more for ourselves. All of us...you do it too my friend; so do I. God demanded blood as sacrifice. Death infact was the result of sin. And in the old testiment, when one had sinned (which happens more than they realised I'm sure) God asked them to sacrifice something in their place. When we live our sinful lives, we are already dead to God, who lives outside of time. Life is found in christ, and we are once again alive in God's eyes.



Accepting the thing I've done wrong, saying I'm sorry to God, and accepting the new conditions that God has laid down is taking responsibility. The new conditions are that God's child has died instead of me (but he didn't die! He was raised from the dead; he defeated death. That's the promise. We, as children of God, will not die either) and that I have to accept that, believe in it, and allow it to transform me. Having God's sacrifice Jesus LIVE inside me means I might have a hope of repenting. Because I, on my own, am futile in understanding even the things I do wrong.



Offering yourself means death. It means saying "Ok God, I continue to do the thigns I do, but I'll pay the penalty after". That penalty is death.



Because God was alive in Jesus, Jesus willingly did this. Jesus shed His blood as His sacrifice to God. Jesus did this out of pure love, because he wanted us to escape eternal death. There is no greater gift in the history of humanity. Jesus was raised from the dead; his blood baptizes the spirits of those who believe in him. Jesus is the Lamb, the sacrificial Lamb, out of God's love that is inside him, and because of this God has placed him at his right hand. This is the sacrifice that each and every person should be willing to give, but because Jesus was the first Child of God in the world, he did it.

On reading the bible, I've found parts that I couldn't explain, or even disagreed with. The problem isn't in those things themselves, but in my understanding of them. Fortunatly the bible ties itself together, and my doubts are often cleared up by other verses referring to those things in a different light. Reading and educating yourself is the only real way to understand what the bible is talking about in any given place. Some significant thigns won't become significant until you learn background information.

Anyway, God is alive right now in your intrest in Christianity. I will only ever tell you the facts - I'm not trying to convert you or tamper with your beliefs, but rather to offer my voice in any way that helps. God bless!

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Thanks again for explaining your views, man. I appreciate your willingness to help.

Where to begin?

O.k, lets start with what you said about the holy spirit being a literal person. I couldn't disagree more. If you would, direct me to scripture that defines the holy spirit as being a person, and not "Spirit".

I believe it is supernatural just as guilt, and hate, and anger, and jealousy, and compassion are. (Spirits) Only, the holy spirit is love, and it convicts us through love showing us what is acceptable, and what is not. It doesn't speak to us, but by its own essence...love! It is up to each individual to embrace its presence.

I don't believe it guides us through scripture, to helps us discern its compexities. Case in point, the many differing Christian denominations. Is the holy spirit telling something different to different people? No, its not telling anything! It convicts by its own essence, and that essence is 'love'.

True 'comfort' comes from love. you see, love conquers fear, and Jesus clearly stated that the holy spirit was the 'comforter'. Again, it is up to each individual to embrace it. Love is a very powerful force, man. This is not a religious concept either. All can profit by accepting its power...religious, or not!

We can move to Jesus now, and what he did on the cross. (My views)

You see, Jesus said to "pick up your cross, and follow me". The cross is a metaphor for sin and responsibility, imo. He willingly died on the cross accepting, and bearing the burdens of man. But wait, he said "follow me". He set the example for what is required of all man. To bear your own cross, and willingly die, or to sacrifice your own life for the lives of others.

Not literaly, we all must die someday, and Jesus clearly showed us this on the cross. I'm talking about living not just for self, but for all mankind in attempt to create a better life experience for future generations. Through love this is possible, and Jesus showed us what it meant to love. He was our example, not our savior! He simply showed us the way, and gave us a clear sign of what it will take to save mankind.

He spoke in parables, and why would the message of the cross be any different? Personal salvation is for the selfish, and self serving, but sacrificing your life for the future lives of others, and bearing the burdens of man is what Jesus was trying to show us. This is how mankind will be saved...through the efforts of man, for man, and through the power of love that dwells within those that choose to embrace it. By Jesus' example we see this, and we honor him by doing so...

Matthew 16:25
25. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.

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Offering yourself means death. It means saying "Ok God, I continue to do the thigns I do, but I'll pay the penalty after". That penalty is death.

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Love and responsibility is the answer to the salvation of mankind. Not putting your burdens on another to pay for. Personal salvation is a hopeful myth! I'm willing to take up the cross, and die for what Jesus was trying to accomplish. The question is: Are you? It takes faith!

As for learning from mistakes...one must only be willing!

Proverbs says much about this...

Btw, some will say you can't just pick and choose things you like, or things that make sense in the bible. They will tell you you must accept it all as fact, or nothing at all!

I say, that is like saying in order to be an american, you must embrace, and agree with everything our government does.

We have minds to discern things, and I think God expects us to use them...

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Originally Posted by Great Spirit

Ya been down that road before. I know all the ins and outs of fundemental Christianity. For one..tell her that there are contradicting resurrection stories, as Luke says there were 2 angels at the tomb...but in Mark there is just a man at the tomb. Remember that Mark was supposedly the first canonical gospel written (besides the Gospel of Thomas which some say is the Q source) and Matthew and Luke were just expanded versions of Mark. John is in a category of its own.

However since there is a contradiction, the whole faith shatters because they are told the Bible is infalliable without contradictions. See how she reacts to this.

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Have you ever had to give an eye witness testimony before? I have infact. There was a fight outside of my work one night and I had to talk to a police officer about what I had seen. My coworker saw the whole thing as well and had to do so also.

The odd thing is that since there was so much excitement, and chaos, me and my coworker tended to give different testimony when it came to some of the smaller details. Was his hat blue or purple? Did he have one friend or two? etc.

The gospels are eye witness accounts of Christ's life. In the case of the angels at the tomb, we know that any time angels have appeared in the bible, they have frightened those who saw them - so it's no doubt during an excitement like that some little details like that might not be carefully paid attention too...Also they've often appeared as a "heavenly host". If anything, small differences such as that (and I've heard this specific one before) would lead me to believe that they are true; that perhaps this is real testimony, and not just a bunch of guys getting together and making sure they all pitched the same story.

The bible is infallible. That's not to say some little errors in it don't exist. I do not make this claim, and neither does any level headed christian. What infallible means is that the book as a whole does not preach in two different directions.

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Romans 1
For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.

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I personaly think it is somewhat foolish to put put all your eggs in one basket, and depend on Jesus, or God to save mankind. I think it is far better to glorify God by accepting his creation, and being thankful for what we have, and strive to make life, or his creation a better place for future generations. I'd say that depending on Jesus, or God to do it all would be more 'futile' than for us to take responsibilty for what was given. I question who's hearts are actually 'darkened'...

I'm in it more fore those who will come after me, and Christians seem to be in it more for 'self'.

Surely you understand my delimma when it comes to converting to mainstrean Christianity, when I view it as a very selfish, self serving, and irresponsible religion...

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Originally Posted by JunkYard

Thanks again for explaining your views, man. I appreciate your willingness to help.

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No problem friend :) I actually find fullfillment in talking about this.

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Originally Posted by JunkYard

Where to begin?

O.k, lets start with what you said about the holy spirit being a literal person. I couldn't disagree more. If you would, direct me to scripture that defines the holy spirit as being a person, and not "Spirit".

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Perhaps we've misunderstood eachother. The Holy Spirit is a spirit, yes. What I mean is that the Holy Spirit is an individual "being" - who is a part of God - and not a "state of love". Jesus talks about the Holy Spirit in John chapter 16:

Jesus says:
5"Now I am going to him who sent me, yet none of you asks me, 'Where are you going?' 6Because I have said these things, you are filled with grief. 7But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. 8When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt[a] in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment: 9in regard to sin, because men do not believe in me; 10in regard to righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer; 11and in regard to judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned.

12"I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you. 15All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will take from what is mine and make it known to you.

16"In a little while you will see me no more, and then after a little while you will see me."

--It is elaborated a bit further in Acts, when His diciples recieve the Holy Spirit for the first time at Pentacost. I will provide the link:
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...r=2&version=31

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Originally Posted by JunkYard

I don't believe it guides us through scripture, to helps us discern its compexities. Case in point, the many differing Christian denominations. Is the holy spirit telling something different to different people? No, its not telling anything! It convicts by its own essence, and that essence is 'love'.

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The division of the christian church is in humanity themselves. Our different cultures create different outlooks; differences in opinion and different presuppositions. Humanity can never look at Truth directly; it burns like sunlight. the Holy Spirit is our guide and teacher. Most denominations (and I blame catholosism for somewhat pushing this) are quite timid and inexperienced with the Holy Spirit. Case in point: My church growing up. I had never learned about the true meaning of the Holy Spirit (until I read it for myself in the Bible - and experienced it myself). They seemed to have hid it from their focus - not deny it mind you - they ignore it. Once I experienced it in scripture, I brought it up with a few members. They seemed quite defensive and almost desperate to overlook it. To be honest, some of the gifts of the Holy Spirit - gifts of prophecy, speaking in tounges, etc - are to some a little too "hokey" for a more conservative mind. The church has grown stagnant, and I now believe that Christ's church is not found in buildings, rather in the fellowship of those who believe and follow him.

The division of the church comes from our own flaw. Even Israel could not follow God, though a few amongst them could. Christianity has taken the long way around this. We've ignored it, but it's there. We've let it divide us, when it comes to bring us together.

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Originally Posted by JunkYard

True 'comfort' comes from love. you see, love conquers fear, and Jesus clearly stated that the holy spirit was the 'comforter'. Again, it is up to each individual to embrace it. Love is a very powerful force, man. This is not a religious concept either. All can profit by accepting its power...religious, or not!

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Yes my friend, you are correct :) The Holy Spirit is our comforter, but I must further stress that it is our teacher, and councelor; our dogma. Religion is a dead term. I do not believe that a christian life should be founded apon it's "religious" aspects, but rather the Holy Spirit inside. I think we're in agreement here, unless I misunderstand you. What I must stress, however, is that the Holy Spirit is found through Christ. He is sent by Christ; he is the spiritual circumsision that we have when we accept christ. It is only with Christ in us, that the Holy Spirit (who was in christ) is in us.

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Originally Posted by JunkYard

We can move to Jesus now, and what he did on the cross. (My views)

You see, Jesus said to "pick up your cross, and follow me". The cross is a metaphor for sin and responsibility, imo. He willingly died on the cross accepting, and bearing the burdens of man. But wait, he said "follow me". He set the example for what is required of all man. To bear your own cross, and willingly die, or to sacrifice your own life for the lives of others.

Not literaly, we all must die someday, and Jesus clearly showed us this on the cross. I'm talking about living not just for self, but for all mankind in attempt to create a better life experience for future generations. Through love this is possible, and Jesus showed us what it meant to love. He was our example, not our savior! He simply showed us the way, and gave us a clear sign of what it will take to save mankind.

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Yes Jesus was the perfect example of how to love! I thank God that you can see that. It may be however, that you have an unclear picture of what Jesus taught. I would suggest reading John. He gives clear testimony of what the Spirit is, and what Jesus actually said; what Jesus asked of us. He says he died to forgive our sins. He says he is the saviour of mankind. Now I can provide a list of links, but I stress reading the gospels yourself (if you haven't), or reading them again (if you have).

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Originally Posted by JunkYard

He spoke in parables, and why would the message of the cross be any different? Personal salvation is for the selfish, and self serving, but sacrificing your life for the future lives of others, and bearing the burdens of man is what Jesus was trying to show us. This is how mankind will be saved...through the efforts of man, for man, and through the power of love that dwells within those that choose to embrace it. By Jesus' example we see this, and we honor him by doing so...

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No, no, no! haha sorry. If anything Jesus's whole purpose was to show us that mankind can not do it. Paul writes in Romans:

What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. 32Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the "stumbling stone." 33As it is written:
"See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to stumble
and a rock that makes them fall,
and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame."

That stumbling stone is the "Law" of the old testiment, put their for men to stumble over. Only by failing to keep Gods law over and over again, do we realise that mankind can NOT do this without God's help. That is why Jesus is so important. That is why we have to accept God's Son; the Messiah. It is only God in us that can make us like His Son. Please, read John and see for your own understanding. I can not do this real justice, but the Truth is in the Word.

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Originally Posted by JunkYard

Matthew 16:25
25. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.

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This is the same as the rich man who would not give up his riches to follow Jesus, holding on to the worldy pleasures and not the truth that is Christ. Christ asks of us to leave what we're doing and follow him. I do not believe (personally) that this verse applies to our physical life, but rather what we are making of our lives. To follow the things in this world means to die with this world in the end. I would suggest reading the whole of Matthew 16, as it puts this verse into context (single verses on their own can be taken in whatever way we want, but as a whole they promote one message)

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Originally Posted by JunkYard

I personaly think it is somewhat foolish to put put all your eggs in one basket, and depend on Jesus, or God to save mankind. I think it is far better to glorify God by accepting his creation, and being thankful for what we have, and strive to make life, or his creation a better place for future generations. I'd say that depending on Jesus, or God to do it all would be more 'futile' than for us to take responsibilty for what was given. I question who's hearts are actually 'darkened'...

I'm in it more fore those who will come after me, and Christians seem to be in it more for 'self'.

Surely you understand my delimma when it comes to converting to mainstrean Christianity, when I view it as a very selfish, self serving, and irresponsible religion...

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You're right. It is pointless to assume and ask Jesus to fix this world. That is why it is important to ask the Holy Spirit what part I might play in this world. God has big plans for all of his followers. He's called every part in the body to work, and should they recieve it great and wonderful things happen. God gives abundance to those who will recieve it (who will hear it). It IS our role in the world. It's sad that as of yet this world hasn't changed. I would like to quote Solomon though, simply because I get a kick from this verse. Some background information: Solomon was the son of King David. He was told by God that he could ask him for anything, and he asked for wisdom and God gave it to him:

"So I hated life, because the work that is done under the sun was grievous to me. All of it is meaningless, a chasing after the wind. 18 I hated all the things I had toiled for under the sun, because I must leave them to the one who comes after me. 19 And who knows whether he will be a wise man or a fool? Yet he will have control over all the work into which I have poured my effort and skill under the sun. "

My heart was darkned for 18 years my friend. I mean truley darkend. Though I claimed to myself that I was a good person, it is only clear to me now that all intent was selfish. Through the scripture I found that it taught nothing of selfish intent. I was stubborn. I can't say you are, but I know the heart that I had without christ, and though I claimed to love, it was for myself. Thought I found happiness in helping others, it was for my vanity. Anyway, I thank the Lord that you've taken an intrest in these thigns. I hope you can get your answers! Remember, what I say can never do justice to what is in the scripture.

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Originally Posted by Pyramidsonmars

No problem friend :) I actually find fullfillment in talking about this.

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I do as well. I've been reading and studying scripture sinse childhood, only I've come to different conclusions than most. This may be do to the fact that I believe in being a standup guy, and bearing my own burdens.

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Perhaps we've misunderstood eachother. The Holy Spirit is a spirit, yes. What I mean is that the Holy Spirit is an individual "being" - who is a part of God - and not a "state of love". Jesus talks about the Holy Spirit in John chapter 16:

Jesus says:
5"Now I am going to him who sent me, yet none of you asks me, 'Where are you going?' 6Because I have said these things, you are filled with grief. 7But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. 8When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt[a] in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment: 9in regard to sin, because men do not believe in me; 10in regard to righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer; 11and in regard to judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned.

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I think we are all princes of the world, and we all deserve a degree of condimnation. The holy spirit convicts us of our own shortcomings, yet comforts when embraced, and incorporated in everyday activities.

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12"I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you. 15All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will take from what is mine and make it known to you.

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This simply supports my current beliefs further. They weren't ready to take responsibility, so Jesus allowed them to stay in ignorance about what was actually expected of them. (All mankind) Truth comes when you embrace love for all mankind, and for all creation. Love speaks different things for different people. I think it depends on level of maturity? None can know what is to come, but through our convictions (By the holy spirit, or 'love) we can get an idea. Although, I believe many fall short of 'hearing' what is to actually come, and what is actually expected.

All that makes Jesus, makes us, and this is what was to be made known. That we are sons, and daughters of God ourselves, and it is our responsibility to make the same sacrifices Jesus made. Creation is ours, just as it was Jesus'... We are all Christs in this respect.

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--It is elaborated a bit further in Acts, when His diciples recieve the Holy Spirit for the first time at Pentacost. I will provide the link:
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...r=2&version=31

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Thanks for the link...

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The division of the christian church is in humanity themselves. Our different cultures create different outlooks; differences in opinion and different presuppositions. Humanity can never look at Truth directly; it burns like sunlight. the Holy Spirit is our guide and teacher. Most denominations (and I blame catholosism for somewhat pushing this) are quite timid and inexperienced with the Holy Spirit. Case in point: My church growing up. I had never learned about the true meaning of the Holy Spirit (until I read it for myself in the Bible - and experienced it myself). They seemed to have hid it from their focus - not deny it mind you - they ignore it. Once I experienced it in scripture, I brought it up with a few members. They seemed quite defensive and almost desperate to overlook it. To be honest, some of the gifts of the Holy Spirit - gifts of prophecy, speaking in tounges, etc - are to some a little too "hokey" for a more conservative mind. The church has grown stagnant, and I now believe that Christ's church is not found in buildings, rather in the fellowship of those who believe and follow him.

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Again, I think the holy spirit convicts each individual differently depending on what they are willing to see, and level of maturity. I'm not fond of speaking in toungues, nor do I believe that there is anything to those who claim they can. Prophesy, on the other hand, anyone can see, if you look at the world with open eyes. I wonder what would happen if all the world simply put all the burdens of life on Jesus, and expected him to come back, and make it all better, rather than playing a role in creation themselves. Most Christians believe it is usless to try, and do nothing, but wait for their own lives.

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The division of the church comes from our own flaw. Even Israel could not follow God, though a few amongst them could. Christianity has taken the long way around this. We've ignored it, but it's there. We've let it divide us, when it comes to bring us together.

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I agree...I think? Man will only see what he is 'willing' to see, and will only come to the reality of truth when he puts away the selfish man...

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Yes my friend, you are correct :) The Holy Spirit is our comforter, but I must further stress that it is our teacher, and councelor; our dogma. Religion is a dead term. I do not believe that a christian life should be founded apon it's "religious" aspects, but rather the Holy Spirit inside. I think we're in agreement here, unless I misunderstand you. What I must stress, however, is that the Holy Spirit is found through Christ. He is sent by Christ; he is the spiritual circumsision that we have when we accept christ. It is only with Christ in us, that the Holy Spirit (who was in christ) is in us.

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All can embrace the holy spirit, imo. Even w/o the knowledge of Jesus. We are all Christs ourselves when we embrace the same things Jesus stood for, (Love and responsibility) and when we understand this reality, (What I believe to be) we can then start the process of becoming, and make substantial change in the world.

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Yes Jesus was the perfect example of how to love! I thank God that you can see that. It may be however, that you have an unclear picture of what Jesus taught. I would suggest reading John. He gives clear testimony of what the Spirit is, and what Jesus actually said; what Jesus asked of us. He says he died to forgive our sins. He says he is the saviour of mankind. Now I can provide a list of links, but I stress reading the gospels yourself (if you haven't), or reading them again (if you have).

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I agree that Jesus was the perfect example of love, but I also believe that Jesus parallels who we all are when we ebrace his example. (His love for all mankind, and for all creation.) We are all potential 'saviours' of mankind, imo. We are made whole when we accept the very same burdens Jesus accepted. We are all sons, and daughters of God. Adam being the first, and only true son, but we are decendents of adam by the flesh, therefore we are essentially one.

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No, no, no! haha sorry. If anything Jesus's whole purpose was to show us that mankind can not do it. Paul writes in Romans:

What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. 32Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the "stumbling stone." 33As it is written:
"See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to stumble
and a rock that makes them fall,
and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame."

That stumbling stone is the "Law" of the old testiment, put their for men to stumble over. Only by failing to keep Gods law over and over again, do we realise that mankind can NOT do this without God's help. That is why Jesus is so important. That is why we have to accept God's Son; the Messiah. It is only God in us that can make us like His Son. Please, read John and see for your own understanding. I can not do this real justice, but the Truth is in the Word.

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The truth is in ourselves once we know, and understand the power of love. Jesus is love, the holy spirit is love, and God is love as well. This is why we fail, and stumble...because we haven't embraced the love of God. Jesus shows us how by example, the holy spirit convicts by essence, and God is the source. This is what's expected of all mankind. To embrace this power, and to take up the cross, and willingly give our lives for the lives of others.

This is what it means to Love!

Jesus reinforces this concept in John chapter 15 and even 16 when Jesus says that he is the vine, and we are the branches. (God is the source) Jesus is the perfect example of love, and we cannot survive ourselves, or live a 'worthy' life w/o it. The bread and butter of Jesus' entire testimony is about love.

Love is the answer, man! At least, I believe it to be...

Btw, Ive read both the old, and new testament many times over with an objective approach. I still read the bilble when something crosses my mind. It is a facinating book! I particularly like the new testament.

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This is the same as the rich man who would not give up his riches to follow Jesus, holding on to the worldy pleasures and not the truth that is Christ. Christ asks of us to leave what we're doing and follow him. I do not believe (personally) that this verse applies to our physical life, but rather what we are making of our lives. To follow the things in this world means to die with this world in the end. I would suggest reading the whole of Matthew 16, as it puts this verse into context (single verses on their own can be taken in whatever way we want, but as a whole they promote one message)

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I'll read John 16 again in a few minutes to refresh my memory, and get back to you, but I honestly believe we are to sacrifice ourselves for the lives of those who will come after. You seem to fully expect the world to be destroyed, whereas I fully intend for mankind to save our species through the example that Jesus made for us.

He said to follow him. This to me means to follow his example, not to worship, and rely on a second coming to save the world.

Perhaps 'we' are the second coming when we embrace our responsibilities as the dominant species on earth? After all, I believe we are all become 'christ's' when we embrace all Jesus stood for...

Love and responsibility!

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Originally Posted by Pyramidsonmars

You're right. It is pointless to assume and ask Jesus to fix this world. That is why it is important to ask the Holy Spirit what part I might play in this world. God has big plans for all of his followers. He's called every part in the body to work, and should they recieve it great and wonderful things happen. God gives abundance to those who will recieve it (who will hear it). It IS our role in the world. It's sad that as of yet this world hasn't changed.

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The world has not changed because the world does not value love. The world values material things, as well as self serving, and selfish endeavors. Who in the world sets the pace of what is expected of the masses? How many value the efforts of Ghandi, and the like? We seem to be caught so much in ourselves that we turn a blinded eye towards those that actually try to make a difference in life.

While Christians seek to convert, and bring others into their ways of thinking, it serves only the individuals in question, and little is done to chage the current realities of the type of world we live in. Most have given up hope of ever changing the world, so they turn to religion to give them hope. (A false sense of hope I might add!) This false sense of hope supports thier decisions to do nothing, and simply wait for their precious saviour to save them from the burdens of life. When in reality, we (Mankind) hold the key...

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I would like to quote Solomon though, simply because I get a kick from this verse. Some background information: Solomon was the son of King David. He was told by God that he could ask him for anything, and he asked for wisdom and God gave it to him:

"So I hated life, because the work that is done under the sun was grievous to me. All of it is meaningless, a chasing after the wind. 18 I hated all the things I had toiled for under the sun, because I must leave them to the one who comes after me. 19 And who knows whether he will be a wise man or a fool? Yet he will have control over all the work into which I have poured my effort and skill under the sun. "

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Still, he pressed on, and did his part! Faith is a big word, and it takes faith to put hope in man. We should be doing all we can to show others the importance of love, and the importance of being responsible creatures. To show what God is, and what he surely wishes for his children. (For us to love one another, and press on, and fight the good fight, even in the darkest of times)

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My heart was darkned for 18 years my friend. I mean truley darkend. Though I claimed to myself that I was a good person, it is only clear to me now that all intent was selfish. Through the scripture I found that it taught nothing of selfish intent. I was stubborn. I can't say you are, but I know the heart that I had without christ, and though I claimed to love, it was for myself. Thought I found happiness in helping others, it was for my vanity. Anyway, I thank the Lord that you've taken an intrest in these thigns. I hope you can get your answers! Remember, what I say can never do justice to what is in the scripture.

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We are by nature, selfish creatures, and it takes much effort to put away the sefish man. We seem to want our own glory when we should be wanting to honor God...Who is, by definition, "love"!

Love breaks all barriers, and allows us to become something special. Sure we will all stumble, and fall, but this is how life works, man. Wisdom is gained through experiece. That is, if one is willing to embrace the lessons at hand. Otherwise, we will be the fools soloman so oftenly spoke about.

battles of the engorged egos.

fake it for your mom.

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Originally Posted by ADaisyChain

battles of the engorged egos.

fake it for your mom.

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ego >noun (pl. egos) 1 a person's sense of self-esteem or self-importance. 2Psychoanalysis the part of the mind that mediates between the conscious and the unconscious and is responsible for the interpretation of reality and the development of a sense of self.

I like having a voice when it comes to matters of faith, and personal belief. I also think ego is absolutely nescessary when it comes to humans attempting to understand such things. Anyone who claims to have tamed the 'ego' are lying to themselves, or they simply don't care about the matters of life on this earth.

I'm not sure where 'engorged' came from in your analysis of this discussion, but I will say that ego is nescessary to give us a voice, and to establish a personal 'self worth', and/or seat in the great scheme of life.

I won't agree with mother, or fake it just to make her happy. I have my own views, (Some very strong) but I do have an open mind, and I'm quite willing (If not eager) to understand the views of others. Hence, the reason for this discussion.

Btw, I'm still discussing this issue with my mum,

lol. make a difference.

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Originally Posted by ADaisyChain

lol. make a difference.

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So you don't think you make a difference one way or the other? Every action bears a consequece, ADaisyChain. Even the small ones that seem unsubstantial. I do my part by making a difference in my sons life, and by being true to what I believe.

The world won't change overnight, nor do I expect it to. In all honesty, I believe it will take ages to create the world of my dreams. I certainly won't make it happen alone. Jesus couldn't do it alone, why would my efforts be any different?

What I'm saying is we 'all' can do our part to make the world a better place for 'future' generations...Simply by taking on a caring, loving attitude towards creation, and towards those who share this world with us. Each individual has the power to be a blessing in the lives of others. Surely you won't disagree with this?

Yes, I make a difference in life. Albeit not a substantial one, but who's to say my son won't follow behind me, and do the same?

Btw, I love you!

Sorry Knowm, I just like the way to roll, brother. ;)

No one can ever tell someone else their belief is wrong or not true

Believe in what u wanna believe in the same way u Do what u think is right

Wether it be rastarafism, catholic or buddhist ur decision is yours.

And whats to say u cant believe in more than one god?

The Bible is a SPIRITUAL book and you have to read it spiritually to truly understand it. Add the Quran, Rig Vedas, Nag Hammadi codices to your library collection to! They are all of equal status and none is better then the other. Did you know that the Gospel of Thomas predates the canonical gospels, before Mark? Some consider the Gospel of Thomas to be the actual "Q" source that Mark, Matthew, and Luke drew their sources from.

The Christianity that is taught today is the result of the Pauline letters...not Jesus. Remember that during the first century or 2 of Christianity, there were different views and sects. Why do you think the monks in Egypt saved the manuscripts we now call the Nag Hammadi Library? When the organized Catholic Church came to power, they considered such writings as heresy.

Yes there are contradictions in the Bible. The fundementalists believe that it is without error...but since there are, there whole VIEW of their faith shatters. Thank god because I am so much happier and understand so much more after I left the Church. I don't need to give $20 to the Church for a new vacation Bible school swimming pool. Give it to the poor!!

When Jesus meant by ressurection, it was spiritual...not physical. Remember...you must be BORN AGAIN. You ressurect in this life...then die. You need to get away from the "physical" meanings and embrace the spirit...as true worshippers worship the Father in spirit and in truth.

I believe the ressurection of Jesus was as literal and physical as it can get. His ressurection was his assurance of the power of the LORD. None of us can ressurect people so this is surly a symbol of Gods power. Jesus was also ressrected in a perfect human body, like the ones believers will recive at rapture. If Jesus just died and that was it, surly his disciples and followers would call him a liar and not believe him anymore. Without this event, christianity would have been shot down a lot sooner.

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Originally Posted by robert42

No one can ever tell someone else their belief is wrong or not true

Believe in what u wanna believe in the same way u Do what u think is right

Wether it be rastarafism, catholic or buddhist ur decision is yours.

And whats to say u cant believe in more than one god?

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I agree whole heartedly. Although, I've been guilty of condeming Christians (Among others) because I disagree with their idea of 'salvation'. no one 'honestly' knows the absolute 'truth'. Any religion 'could' be right, just as any religion could be wrong. I guess it all comes down to conviction, and personal belief...

We should all be honest with ourselves, and accept that others may very well be the ones who got it right! I highly disagree with religious violence, though!

I'm still somewhat convicted in my own beliefs, and yes, they are derived from biblical texts, as well as from the inner most places of my heart, and mind...

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Originally Posted by Great Spirit

The Bible is a SPIRITUAL book and you have to read it spiritually to truly understand it. Add the Quran, Rig Vedas, Nag Hammadi codices to your library collection to! They are all of equal status and none is better then the other. Did you know that the Gospel of Thomas predates the canonical gospels, before Mark? Some consider the Gospel of Thomas to be the actual "Q" source that Mark, Matthew, and Luke drew their sources from.

The Christianity that is taught today is the result of the Pauline letters...not Jesus. Remember that during the first century or 2 of Christianity, there were different views and sects. Why do you think the monks in Egypt saved the manuscripts we now call the Nag Hammadi Library? When the organized Catholic Church came to power, they considered such writings as heresy.

Yes there are contradictions in the Bible. The fundementalists believe that it is without error...but since there are, there whole VIEW of their faith shatters. Thank god because I am so much happier and understand so much more after I left the Church. I don't need to give $20 to the Church for a new vacation Bible school swimming pool. Give it to the poor!!

When Jesus meant by ressurection, it was spiritual...not physical. Remember...you must be BORN AGAIN. You ressurect in this life...then die. You need to get away from the "physical" meanings and embrace the spirit...as true worshippers worship the Father in spirit and in truth.

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There are many books left out of the Bible, Thomas being one of them. I seem to remember reading parts of his gospel on line, although I don't remember where I found it.

I prefer to take a hands on approach when discerning biblical texts. I do agree that much of it has to do with spirit, though. I think I may even agree with your take on the ressurection. Our ressurection, or second birth comes when we take on the spirit of God, (Which I believe is love) or in other words...when we become born again. I think Jesus set a fair example of what it means to be born of spirit.

I choose not to 'worship' as I don't think that God demands it, but I will continue to honor God, creation, Jesus, love, forgiveness, responsibility, and all thats been given for me to endure.

I think that if God exists at all, he would rather us respect him w/o demand...

I disagree with fearing him even in the least....

Anyone have a take on what it means in the book of Proverbs when Soloman says that "The fear of the Lord is the begining of wisdom"?

Some say that fear means 'respect', but true respect doesn't come from fear, imo. It comes from adoration, and it is earned...

It cannot be demanded!

Btw, my mother has crossed over, and is now in almost full agreement with me...

Imagine that!

wow, i guess i never saw it that way. you truly are a better man then i junkyard.

btw did you see the latest degrassi?