North Korea agrees to give up nuclear program

http://edition.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/as...lks/index.html

Now if only Washington would follow Pyongyang's lead...

Ya, not gonna happen. They rejected the proposal in 1998, and they'll reject it every time. Their idea is that if nobody has nukes except the US, well, then the US is the only country with nukes! Woohoo! And if nobody has nukes including the US, well, then, somebody might get nukes and nuke the US!

**resisting urge to add another "Woohoo!"**

The world is never entirely going to get rid of nukes, and I guarentee it'll be because of the US.

I still don't understand how Bush can say nukes aren't okay for the North Koreans or the Iranians but they're okay for the Americans. Surely he of all people should be familiar with the Gospels' definition of a hypocrite as someone who applies standards to others that he fails to apply to himself. I don't see how he justifies applying the "WMDs are bad and need to be eliminated" standard only to foreigners. He somehow thinks nuclear, chemical and biological weapons are okay when Americans handle them, because obviously, Americans have discovered the secret to using these weapons ethically, but all them evil foreigners just want to be terr'ists and kill people. :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by ermitonto

I still don't understand how Bush can say nukes aren't okay for the North Koreans or the Iranians but they're okay for the Americans. Surely he of all people should be familiar with the Gospels' definition of a hypocrite as someone who applies standards to others that he fails to apply to himself. I don't see how he justifies applying the "WMDs are bad and need to be eliminated" standard only to foreigners. He somehow thinks nuclear, chemical and biological weapons are okay when Americans handle them, because obviously, Americans have discovered the secret to using these weapons ethically, but all them evil foreigners just want to be terr'ists and kill people. :rolleyes:

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Howdy ermitonto,

There's alot of differences between our goverment and it's systems of balances and checks,as opposed to those of brutal dictators who have no checks or balances..we use nukes to preserve,protect and defend the entire Free World,not just ourselves..whereas dictators only have war and conquest..on their minds..you may as well give a nuke to an insane person..it's about the same difference.

I would like to see this whole mess with NK end peacefully,there are many folks there suffering terribly and they need the help of the Free World. I wish the same for Iran,folks are suffering there too and many want democracy..but in the case of both countries,the leadership borders on the insane. Kim il Jung,wants to take over South Korea and destroy Japan and the Iranian mullahs,want to destroy both Israel,America and probably Britain,as well as conquer Iraq.

Have a good one ...

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Originally Posted by ermitonto

Now if only Washington would follow Pyongyang's lead...

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The major problem is this; Pyongyang never keeps his word! I find it amazing that he puts his nuclear ambitions ahead of the people of his country that are starving. What a wonderfull world we live in!!! :eek:

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Originally Posted by Psycho4Bud

The major problem is this; Pyongyang never keeps his word! I find it amazing that he puts his nuclear ambitions ahead of the people of his country that are starving. What a wonderfull world we live in!!! :eek:

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Howdy Psycho4Bud,

That's a big 10-4 ! Btw,Pyongyang,is the capitol of North Korea and Kim il Jung is the nasty little dictator.

Have a good one !

we need to keep a close eye on this,,as we all know,,the clinton carter agreement with north korea wasnt worth the paper it was written on..

however,,progress is progress.

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Originally Posted by Torog

Howdy Psycho4Bud,

That's a big 10-4 ! Btw,Pyongyang,is the capitol of North Korea and Kim il Jung is the nasty little dictator.

Have a good one !

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And a Howdy to you Torog!

I refered to that in the same manner as we refer to Bush as Washington. My blunder though....slid in a his instead of its.

Have a good one brother!!! :D

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Originally Posted by Torog

Howdy ermitonto,

There's alot of differences between our goverment and it's systems of balances and checks,as opposed to those of brutal dictators who have no checks or balances..we use nukes to preserve,protect and defend the entire Free World,not just ourselves..whereas dictators only have war and conquest..on their minds..you may as well give a nuke to an insane person..it's about the same difference.

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I don't know the Constitution as well as I should, but isn't it against Constitutional law to get involved in foreign wars that have nothing to do with us? Wouldn't policing of the world inevitably lead to a global dictatorship (which is what the shadow government or Ill.uminati have been planning and working towards for a long time)? Also, isn't the purpose of national sovereignty to keep our country safer (from harm and loss of freedom) by not getting involved in other countries' affairs? I know it's not ideal, we all want the world to be like America (well at least what America is supposed to be) but what about the laws of our Constitution?

Bush wants a global dictatorship.

Dang it, I didn't realize there was a 5 minute limit to edit...ok let me see if I can remember what I was going to add..

What if that global power is or becomes corrupt? Then that global power, who's supposed purpose was to eradicate tyranny all over the world, becomes the tyrant that rules the world?

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Originally Posted by Odd Ball

I don't know the Constitution as well as I should, but isn't it against Constitutional law to get involved in foreign wars that have nothing to do with us? Wouldn't policing of the world inevitably lead to a global dictatorship (which is what the shadow government or Ill.uminati have been planning and working towards for a long time)? Also, isn't the purpose of national sovereignty to keep our country safer (from harm and loss of freedom) by not getting involved in other countries' affairs? I know it's not ideal, we all want the world to be like America (well at least what America is supposed to be) but what about the laws of our Constitution?

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Laws of the Constitution are basic ideals. During that period they had no knowledge of what was to come. ICBMs with nuclear warheads wasn't even a dream. We now live in a different age with different sets of guidelines.
Oh for the simpler time of old!! :D

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Originally Posted by Psycho4Bud

Laws of the Constitution are basic ideals. During that period they had no knowledge of what was to come. ICBMs with nuclear warheads wasn't even a dream. We now live in a different age with different sets of guidelines.
Oh for the simpler time of old!! :D

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Does this mean we're all just doomed to live in a global, tyrannical, hellish dictatorship? I guess the way things have been going due to changing times, a free government needs to be re-established based on modern society and for that to happen a lot of bad shit has to happen first.

The way I see it going is our government finally exposing itself for what it really is and completely doing away with what little illusion of America is left and trying to establish their global dictatorship and then those who don't want it will fight it until someone comes out the victor. That's the only way all the meglanomanicas will be removed from power.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Odd Ball

Does this mean we're all just doomed to live in a global, tyrannical, hellish dictatorship? I guess the way things have been going due to changing times, a free government needs to be re-established based on modern society and for that to happen a lot of bad shit has to happen first.

The way I see it going is our government finally exposing itself for what it really is and completely doing away with what little illusion of America is left and trying to establish their global dictatorship and then those who don't want it will fight it until someone comes out the victor. That's the only way all the meglanomanicas will be removed from power.

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Oh I don't know about all that. I don't see us as being a global dictator and I really don't see the persective of "doomed" at all. I've got the freedom to work or not to, call someone in government an ass and fear no reprisal, ride my scoot from ocean to ocean. Don't like the pot laws but time is on my side. :D

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Originally Posted by ermitonto

I still don't understand how Bush can say nukes aren't okay for the North Koreans or the Iranians but they're okay for the Americans. Surely he of all people should be familiar with the Gospels' definition of a hypocrite as someone who applies standards to others that he fails to apply to himself. I don't see how he justifies applying the "WMDs are bad and need to be eliminated" standard only to foreigners. He somehow thinks nuclear, chemical and biological weapons are okay when Americans handle them, because obviously, Americans have discovered the secret to using these weapons ethically, but all them evil foreigners just want to be terr'ists and kill people. :rolleyes:

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meanwhile, they continue to teach in schools that the atomic bomb was supposed to drop on military installations, and hiroshima and nagasaki were complete "accidents"...

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Originally Posted by Psycho4Bud

Laws of the Constitution are basic ideals. During that period they had no knowledge of what was to come. ICBMs with nuclear warheads wasn't even a dream. We now live in a different age with different sets of guidelines.
Oh for the simpler time of old!! :D

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jesus said that money was the root of all evil...he lived in a way simpler time. i guess he mustve been wrong, because business in las vegas is booming and casino owners undoubtedly vote republican for the most part...which leads to bush getting "elected"

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Torog

There's alot of differences between our goverment and it's systems of balances and checks,as opposed to those of brutal dictators who have no checks or balances..we use nukes to preserve,protect and defend the entire Free World,not just ourselves..whereas dictators only have war and conquest..on their minds..you may as well give a nuke to an insane person..it's about the same difference.

---

I don't see how nukes in the hands of the American military is a much better idea than nukes in the hands of an insane person. There have been numerous times in history where the world has become dangerously close to nuclear war, sometimes just by complete accident. Nukes can't preserve or protect people. They can only kill.

Quote:

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I would like to see this whole mess with NK end peacefully,there are many folks there suffering terribly and they need the help of the Free World. I wish the same for Iran,folks are suffering there too and many want democracy..but in the case of both countries,the leadership borders on the insane. Kim il Jung,wants to take over South Korea and destroy Japan and the Iranian mullahs,want to destroy both Israel,America and probably Britain,as well as conquer Iraq.

Have a good one ...

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Peace is the only real solution. A military solution is bound to fail just as spectacularly as Iraq or Afghanistan.

America has failed miserably at bringing "democracy" to the countries it has invaded. One only has to look at the American-backed Islamic theocracy in Afghanistan which is denying people basic freedoms like the freedom of assembly and the freedom of religion. Or the Taliban that a previous American invasion put into power. Or the brutal authoritarian dictatorship of Augusto Pinochet in Chile that was established by a CIA coup against the democratically elected president Salvador Allende. Or the US government's funding of the Contra terrorists in Nicaragua who were trained to attack civilian targets like hospitals and schools.

I've said it before and I've said it again. As long as our leaders are unwilling to withdraw support from brutal dictatorial regimes like Saudi Arabia, Haiti and Uzbekistan, or even to verbally denounce the complete lack of freedom in those places, it is clear that they have absolutely no problem with dictatorial governments.

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Originally Posted by nicholasstanko

jesus said that money was the root of all evil...he lived in a way simpler time. i guess he mustve been wrong, because business in las vegas is booming and casino owners undoubtedly vote republican for the most part...which leads to bush getting "elected"

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Making a comparison between Government and Jesus??? Holy Crap!!! :D

[QUOTE=ermitonto]I don't see how nukes in the hands of the American military is a much better idea than nukes in the hands of an insane person. There have been numerous times in history where the world has become dangerously close to nuclear war, sometimes just by complete accident. Nukes can't preserve or protect people. They can only kill.[QUOTE]

Come on ermitono, you got to be kidding. Right?? There's a huge difference between the U.S. (or Russia, or even China) having nukes and someone like Kim Jong Il or some fundamentalist Muslim leader having them. The difference is that our leaders (even that idiot Bush) know the consequences of using nukes and, more importantly, care about the consequences. This keeps them from using the nukes or at least doing everything they can to prevent their use. Give those nukes to someone who it nuts, has nothing to lose, and feels cornered (like Kim Jong Il), or to someone who thinks to die in the name of Allah is glorious, and they're far more likely to use them.

Think about it, how does Kim Jong Il want to go down in history. As one of the worst leaders ever? The guy who kept his country starving, stuck in the 50's, and who aliented the rest of the world? Or, the guy who taught big bad U.S.A a lesson and nuked one of their cities? I'm hoping for the former but the latter wouldn't suprise me much either.

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Originally Posted by Psycho4Bud

Making a comparison between Government and Jesus??? Holy Crap!!! :D

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ironic...yes. unfounded...no.

i was merely pointing out that any arguement used to say that times were different are inadequate because the principle remains the same.

the founding fathers of america warned that letting a government body acquire too much power always relates to tyranny. that doesnt change, no matter who's in power.


governments emply the same methods of opression used by ancient kingdoms...the romans burned carthage in order to persecute christians and japan bombed manchuria to blame it on the chinese...whats the difference?


nero had no idea about what the word nuclear even meant, but do you really doubt that if he had the power of a nuke bomb, he wouldnt use it to take over the world?

[QUOTE=Fengzi][QUOTE=ermitonto]I don't see how nukes in the hands of the American military is a much better idea than nukes in the hands of an insane person. There have been numerous times in history where the world has become dangerously close to nuclear war, sometimes just by complete accident. Nukes can't preserve or protect people. They can only kill.

Quote:

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Come on ermitono, you got to be kidding. Right?? There's a huge difference between the U.S. (or Russia, or even China) having nukes and someone like Kim Jong Il or some fundamentalist Muslim leader having them. The difference is that our leaders (even that idiot Bush) know the consequences of using nukes and, more importantly, care about the consequences. This keeps them from using the nukes or at least doing everything they can to prevent their use. Give those nukes to someone who it nuts, has nothing to lose, and feels cornered (like Kim Jong Il), or to someone who thinks to die in the name of Allah is glorious, and they're far more likely to use them.

Think about it, how does Kim Jong Il want to go down in history. As one of the worst leaders ever? The guy who kept his country starving, stuck in the 50's, and who aliented the rest of the world? Or, the guy who taught big bad U.S.A a lesson and nuked one of their cities? I'm hoping for the former but the latter wouldn't suprise me much either.

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many men dont care about their legacies because they'll be dead...you're an atheist right? please correct me if im wrong, but would you give a shit about pre-marital sex knowing that fundamentalist christians in the future might look down on you for sinning?


same ideal works with quests for power and money. many people only care about living for today and say "fuck the future".

Interesting point Nich. You're right that I don't care how a fundamentalist Christian would view me in the future, but I don't care how they view me now. Then again folks with giant egos, like I am assuming Kim has, most likely do care. Egos can be powerful things an my personal feeling is that ego has been a major contributing factor in our current debacle in Iraq. GW is not qualified to be President and he knew it. So, rather than go down as one of the worst Presidents in history (which I still think he will) he figures it would be better to go down as the President who took down Saddam Hussien. Just my theory.

meanwhile, we're salting afghanistan and iraq with DU...and forcing our troops to breathe it...

oops, i'm not supporting the troops by being against them being denied medical treatment for gulf war illness and DU related illnesses...


[align=left]Depleted Uranium, Anthrax Vaccine & The Gulf War Syndrome, Part 1[/align]
[align=left]Dr. James Howenstine, MD. | August 8 2005[/align]

[align=left]Former Head Of Pentagon's Depleted Uranium Project Says Thousands Of Troops Are Sick And Dying From Illegal DU Use And Military's Failure To Admit Responsibility[/align]



[align=left]Former Air Force Capt.Turned Activist Says Pentagon's Actions Towards Depleted Uranium Use 'Beyond Treason'


[align=left]Greg Szymanski | August 24 2005[/align]

[align=left]http://www.americanfreepress.net/html/du_death_toll.html[/align]
http://infowars.com/articles/iraq/du_death_toll_tops_11k.htm

[/align]

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fengzi

Interesting point Nich. You're right that I don't care how a fundamentalist Christian would view me in the future, but I don't care how they view me now. Then again folks with giant egos, like I am assuming Kim has, most likely do care. Egos can be powerful things an my personal feeling is that ego has been a major contributing factor in our current debacle in Iraq. GW is not qualified to be President and he knew it. So, rather than go down as one of the worst Presidents in history (which I still think he will) he figures it would be better to go down as the President who took down Saddam Hussien. Just my theory.

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you may be right on that one.


of course, it doesnt hurt to rake in a few billion dollars in oil profits along the way... ;)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by pisshead

meanwhile, we're salting afghanistan and iraq with DU...and forcing our troops to breathe it...

oops, i'm not supporting the troops by being against them being denied medical treatment for gulf war illness and DU related illnesses...


[align=left]Depleted Uranium, Anthrax Vaccine & The Gulf War Syndrome, Part 1[/align]
[align=left]Dr. James Howenstine, MD. | August 8 2005[/align]

[align=left]Former Head Of Pentagon's Depleted Uranium Project Says Thousands Of Troops Are Sick And Dying From Illegal DU Use And Military's Failure To Admit Responsibility[/align]



[align=left]Former Air Force Capt.Turned Activist Says Pentagon's Actions Towards Depleted Uranium Use 'Beyond Treason'


[align=left]Greg Szymanski | August 24 2005[/align]

[align=left]http://www.americanfreepress.net/html/du_death_toll.html[/align]
http://infowars.com/articles/iraq/du_death_toll_tops_11k.htm

[/align]

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PROPAGANDA!

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Originally Posted by Psycho4Bud

PROPAGANDA!

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my god...what have i created... :eek: :rolleyes:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by nicholasstanko

my god...what have i created... :eek: :rolleyes:

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O.K., O.K., I got this one covered! Like Carnac right? O.K.......What did Nicks momma say when he was born? j/k

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Psycho4Bud

The major problem is this; Pyongyang never keeps his word! I find it amazing that he puts his nuclear ambitions ahead of the people of his country that are starving. What a wonderfull world we live in!!! :eek:

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Find myself in the odd position of agreeing comepletely!

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Originally Posted by andruejaysin

Find myself in the odd position of agreeing comepletely!

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Damn, I knew you had potential! Welcome to the dark side.

Hey, I call them like I see them on the issues, and my apologies for the personal attacks, those obviously have no place in politics (yea, right!)

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Originally Posted by andruejaysin

Hey, I call them like I see them on the issues, and my apologies for the personal attacks, those obviously have no place in politics (yea, right!)

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It's all good! Take a hit for me! :D

You know it!

We were both right, today they presented their demands. Business as usual.

america can handle it...theyre good at the blackmailing/extortion game.

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Originally Posted by nicholasstanko

america can handle it...theyre good at the blackmailing/extortion game.

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Nick, I don't get you at all sometimes. It seems like you bitch about the Nuclear U.S. but yet seem to stand up for this tin pot dictator that would rather save his nukes than feed millions of starving in his country.?.?.?

Explain yourself mister!!! :D

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Originally Posted by Psycho4Bud

Nick, I don't get you at all sometimes. It seems like you bitch about the Nuclear U.S. but yet seem to stand up for this tin pot dictator that would rather save his nukes than feed millions of starving in his country.?.?.?

Explain yourself mister!!! :D

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im not standing up for the dictator at all, my fair psychotic friend. im just pointing out the evil thats pressing down the other evil.


kimmy boy might be dangerous...but what about america's dirty dealings?

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Originally Posted by nicholasstanko

im not standing up for the dictator at all, my fair psychotic friend. im just pointing out the evil thats pressing down the other evil.

Psychotic friend...LOL...Classic!

kimmy boy might be dangerous...but what about america's dirty dealings?

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We have our fair share of what we'll call indescressions. :D But Kimmy boy is a total wack job! Not to mention like I said....why worry about the nukes when he should be worried about the starvation. :rolleyes:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by nicholasstanko

im not standing up for the dictator at all, my fair psychotic friend. im just pointing out the evil thats pressing down the other evil.


kimmy boy might be dangerous...but what about america's dirty dealings?

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we all know that's NEVER caused anyone to be in any kind of danger...ignore what we do...saddam could hit us in 45 minutes! here, look at this anthrax vile i'm holding up! this proves it! here's a report by some graduate student 10 years ago! see!!! SEE!!!!!

The fact is, the NKs don't want a light water reactor, or economic aid, or security guarentees, what they want is what they already have-the bomb. Negotiations are pointless, they will never agree to give them up, because they realize that nukes make them immune from attack. And we will never convince them they are wrong, for the simple reason that they aren't. How should Iran read this? Iraq gives up it's weapons, and gets invaded, NK gets the bomb, and doesn't. The lesson is crystal clear, get the bomb and get it quick.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by andruejaysin

The fact is, the NKs don't want a light water reactor, or economic aid, or security guarentees, what they want is what they already have-the bomb. Negotiations are pointless, they will never agree to give them up, because they realize that nukes make them immune from attack. And we will never convince them they are wrong, for the simple reason that they aren't. How should Iran read this? Iraq gives up it's weapons, and gets invaded, NK gets the bomb, and doesn't. The lesson is crystal clear, get the bomb and get it quick.

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Great idea in theory but it won't work for one reason. Israel! They're already doing drills on how to take out the nuclear plants and chemical facilities. This has great potential of getting very messy!!