Political Hypocrisy

This is just something I've been thinking about lately and thought I would share it. By no means do I mean to insult anyone or their opinions. Also, I would like to note that I am an ardent opponent of the Bush administration and the war in Iraq, and I really don't identify with or trust any political parties.
Anyway, I am irritated by the reasons so many people give for opposing the war in Iraq. Our government is often pressured into using our military for humanitarian reasons, just look at our past military efforts in any number or war torn countries headed by asshole dictators. I think these are legitmate reasons to use our military, basically to improve the lives of people in other countries who are oppressed by all powerful ruling parties. But, the same so-called openminded liberal groups bash our current govt for invading Iraq based on the whole wmd bullshit lies that we have been fed. The lies suck and are in no way excusable, but instead of looking at the war in iraq in a rational and neutral manner, a lot of people get caugt up in hating Bush and don't recognize that Hussein was involved in some serious crimes against humanity. In no way do I believe that we are in Iraq because our govt cares about the Iraqi people, but let's not forget that the Iraqis are being allowed some basic human rights for the first time in decades. I think that is lost somewhere in our political debates. Saddam's past actions, in my opinion, make military force justified, if it ever can be. I guess my problem is that close minded liberals (and there are just as many idiots on the far left as on the far right) forget that Iraq resembles many other countries in which they have vocally urged our govt to use the military to intervene and put an end to human rights violations.
I respect everyone's opinion, but it does bother me when people blindly hate or support a politician. These groups of irrational liberals (and I'm pretty damn liberal myself) are doing as much to divide and polarize this nation as the hawks who salivate at the thought of bloody carnage on the 6 oclock news. Thankfully, I truly believe that most Americans fall somewhere in middle and don't blindly follow a particular political party based more on its opponents, rather than its real party platform.
I'm very interested in your opinions and please feel free to call me an idiot. It won't be the first time and probably isn't that far from the truth.
Peace, Love, and Green Bud.

I think you and I are going to be good friends :cool: :D

Howdy papaw,

I rarely git an answer from lefties,when I accuse them of having their freedom and denying others the same..they say that we shouldn't rock the boat or interfere with a culture that embraces brutal oppression,like fundy muslims and communists do.

Is it not blatantly hypocritical,to have freedom and deny others the chance for freedom ?

I want everyone--to be blessed at least as much as me..and if possible..even more so..what say you ?

Have a good one ....

I define freedom as the ability for everyone to do as they wish without interfering with that same freedom for others. Therefore any person or organization that imposes its will on others (except in self-defense) is acting against the interests of freedom. But to Bush and his lackeys "freedom" is just a buzzword thrown around which means any government which does not oppose the policies of the US government. For instance, one of the justifications for going into Iraq was to "spread democracy", yet the US government conveniently ignores really anti-democratic governments (much more anti-democratic than the one we have in America) that are willing to cooperate with US interests, and in many many instances gives or has given aid to the most brutal of dictatorships, like Saudi Arabia and yes, even Saddam himself (see attached picture). In some places, like Chile and Nicaragua, it has overthrown democratically elected leaders through military coup and replaced them with harsh authoritarian régimes who just so happen to be more open to US policy. The idea that our government is genuinely interested in its undefined, nebulous idea of "freedom" is obviously a farce. It's just a buzzword to attract people to whatever it feels like doing.

Papaw. The way I see it, the problem with this war is that we are there on false pretext. The stated reasons for being there, the weapons, the dictator, the chemical attacks (on his own people!) are all pretext. The actual reason we are there is because the US is attempting to fashion a world government. George Bush is only a figurehead here. Yes, I hate him and wish him ill, but the real enemies are in the background; the multinationals, the moneymen, and certain right-wing think-tanks. "Humanitarian reasons" are what's known as "spin". It's all bullshite. Iraq is NOW a haven for terrorism and is on the brink of a civil war. We have created the mind of a terrorist in every grief-stricken boy who's parents and families have been terrorized, maimed, and killed in this war. We have created 1000's of bin Laden's. How is that a humanitarian solution? How is dropping bombs EVER a humanitarian solution? We are there for ONE reason: To assert our global domination. That is all. Nothing else. The LAST thing the US cares about is people, foreign or domestic. That is why, in my opinion, if you are an American soldier, you are a terrorist. Look at the actions of your government. Look at what is left of the other countries we have "liberated". Look at Granada, Korea, Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia, Nicaragua, and now Iraq. Hussein is !NOTHING! in comparison to what our curent and past presidents have done, both Democrat and Republican. Hussein was a tin-pot half-assed sadist with a really bad taste for fashion and interior design. The US government has turned sadism into an art form. We have learned how to kill with precision. We have learned how to control journalists in such a way that they can be on the ground, in the battle, and still not report the war with anything close to accuracy. We are so proud of ourselves and our art of war. We are mystified by new phrases such as "Shock and Awe" and "Command and Control" and "Daisy-Cutter Bombs". The US is in the midst of an orgasm of violence and we are loving every minute of it. We have created our own Roman Colliseum, where gladiators engage in blood sport for our entertainment, which we can tune into anytime on CNN or FoxNews. But this is just my opinion...

dboy

The one thing I always wonder is will the US someday create more democracies then it has destroyed......(and of course installed dictators in their place....). I figure eventuallly every empire levels it's head a bit, but it does take time. We gotta give em some breaks they are the youngest empire in history. Think of it as a toddler dictator, occasionally things get crushed.

Someone once described the U.S. as "this vast mad horror that doesn't know its size, or its strength, or its weakness, or its barbaric speed, stupidity, din, self-righteousness, this cancerous Babylon." Who was this masked man? Who said this horrible thing?

It was the poet Dylan Thomas but he must have been a wacko commie liberal......Just like that crazy liberal Washington who wanted to get away from british tyranny what a left wing commie eh?

Personally I love america's ideals unfortunately they've been perverted and twisted fed back to the masses and they're swallowing it without looking and with complete abandon....

Create, bring order, destroy, the great cycle of the human species......

(note: Dylan Thomas quote was stolen from anothers post he he)

If the US was really committed to its ideal of "democracy", why is it doing nothing about the military dictatorship in Myanmar? Why is it letting all sorts of totalitarian injustices go unchecked in Africa? Where is its support for the Ejército Zapatista de Liberación Nacional, struggling to bring direct democracy and autonomy for the people of the Mexican state of Chiapas? Why is it allied with the dictatorship in Saudi Arabia, which kills people for being gay, and places heavy restrictions of freedom of speech? Why is it sitting back silently and watching the military occupation of Haiti instead of trying to put the exiled, democratically-elected leader back in power? What about the complete lack of democracy for the sixth of the planet that lives in the "People's" Republic of China? Where is its support for the Tibetan liberation movement? There is absolutely no difference between horrible dictatorial abuses of power in these countries than there is in Iraq, and the only reason Bush would have targeted Iraq over the others is because they were not complying with the US government's plan for the region and of course because they have oil (Iraq, formerly a faithful ally who happily bought chemical weapons from the US government, absolutely cannot be permitted to make its own policies when it holds such a valuable resource as petroleum. We must invade, we must dominate, we must make sure that everybody does exactly what the US government wants it to do, because for it, "might makes right". Welcome to the world of modern capitalist imperialism.) The US only espouses the ideal of democracy when it coincides with its economic plans for everybody.

You cannot fight for freedom for only a fraction of the world's population. Everybody deserves to be free, and movements for freedom must be supported anywhere and everywhere, not just in régimes friendly to the United States government's economic policies. The only way mankind will ever be free is if it unites, internationally, in its struggles against imperialism, capitalism, and the State, and makes for itself a society based on direct democracy, free association and socialism. Freedom cannot be given; it can only be taken.

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Originally Posted by ermitonto

You cannot fight for freedom for only a fraction of the world's population. Everybody deserves to be free, and movements for freedom must be supported anywhere and everywhere, not just in régimes friendly to the United States government's economic policies.

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Of course, what I meant was "not just in régimes not friendly to the United States government's economic policies".

hahaha,what a funny post!!

if we went to half those places people would have a shit fit and scream and cry.ahhhhhh,those big meanie americans!!

get with it jackass!

when dealing with a global threat,you go after the boss and deal with the pee-ons in time.

How is Iraq the "boss"? How was the régime in Iraq worse than the others I mentioned? I would consider China a much bigger problem for democracy.

The point was not that we should go into all those places, it is that if the imperialists are going to use their armies to impose "democratic" governments on the world, they can't pick and choose, by invading one dictatorship (Afghanistan), while simultaneously funding another (Saudi Arabia), overthrowing a dictatorship in one country (Iraq) and helping to install one in another (Haiti). That is hypocrisy any way you look at it. If you believe in freedom, you believe in freedom for everybody.

because saddam hussein funded palestinian suicide bombers and their families,he also gave refuge to zarqawi after he was shot on the battlefield in afghanistan and let him set up a camp north of Baghdad a year before we went in(and in the week before we went in while the french were selling saddam anti tank missles).we also arrested the mastermind of the achilles lauro ship hijacking in downtown baghdad.

afghanistan was not a dictatorship,it was a terrorist state.

the United States and China are alot closer than the only report negative news and violence news media will lead the public to believe.

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Originally Posted by amsterdam

because saddam hussein funded palestinian suicide bombers and their families,he also gave refuge to zarqawi after he was shot on the battlefield in afghanistan and let him set up a camp north of Baghdad a year before we went in(and in the week before we went in while the french were selling saddam anti tank missles).we also arrested the mastermind of the achilles lauro ship hijacking in downtown baghdad.

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Yeah, governments kill innocent people, and do horrendous things. All of them. Especially dictatorial governments like Iraq, or the many dictatorial allies of US economics.

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afghanistan was not a dictatorship,it was a terrorist state.

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So that makes the US-backed dictatorships in Haiti and Saudi Arabia okay? I don't follow.

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the United States and China are alot closer than the only report negative news and violence news media will lead the public to believe.

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So what if the United States and China are close? The Chinese government is a menace to democracy and needs to be defeated for the sake of human rights, democracy and socialism. Nothing can change that.

Amsterdam: Just because the terrorists you mentioned were captured in Iraq does not necessarily mean they were "state-sponsored". We very likely have a few terrorists running around the US right now. It doesn't mean we support it. It would be difficult for me to believe that Saddam had better border controls than the US. Saddam was running a secular regime, not a theocracy. So its very doubtful he agreed with much of anything that al Queda had to say.

China: I don't think the verdict is in on China yet. China is changing very quickly. I think it would be better not to think of them as an enemy to be destroyed, so much as a large competitor for resources. China may surprise us will their willingness to compete in the marketplace rather than on a battlefield.

I'm just not a big fan of invading people and kicking their ass, even if we can. We don't have a very good track record in the nation-building game. And I don't think our freedom has to come at the expense of everyone else's.

dboy

China is certainly not an enemy to be destroyed. The Chinese government is, just like the American government, the Norwegian government, the Iranian government, the Australian government, etc. These institutions can only be destroyed by the working class of the world. The elite will never bring freedom for us, and foreign invasion will never bring freedom for anybody. It will just replace one capitalist bureaucracy with another.

Afghanistan was a theocracy, ruled by a council called the Taliban.....There is no such thing as a terrorist state, Terrorism is a military tactic.....You didnt see americans saying "hey look theres germany the "blitzkrieg state" or hear people nowadays saying "hey look theres america the "air strike state"......sheesh be logical.

I think this is a great point dboy and I completely agree. Iraq has completely been destabilized now and we are much worse off for that. The only thing I was asserting is that so many people are so quick to pick one side or the other without using any real thought. And as I stated, I think they are hypocrites. I won't agree that force is never justified though. The world is a harsh place and I believe that anyone who thinks otherwise is a bit naive, no they are extremely naive. If history has taught us anything it is that rape, murder, theft, etc. are just human nature. These are things that are in us. You too brother. Therefore, forgive me if I don't agree with you that sometimes killing isn't justified. Yes, we are the best at it, and I am not saying that is something to be proud of. But don't talk like the United States is the only group of people who aren't a part of some bullshit idea of peace and brotherhood. All I was pointing out was the hypocritical nature of a lot of people who oppose the war, only because it was enacted by a conservative president. There are plenty of reasons to be against our force in Iraq, I just don't want everyone to jump on either side of the bandwagon because they either listen to Rush Limbaugh or Al Franken. And, dropping a bomb can be a humanitarian solution. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. That is a harsh reality in this world, and you won't find many more bleeding heart dirty hippies than this boy here. But, I'm not blind either. Don't even try to tell me that some wars and killing aren't justified. I'm not saying Iraq is, but I believe you've made some pretty broad generalizations here. Sometimes you have to take the lesser of two evils or you're just not acting intelligently. But, I certainly respect your point, and agree with most of it, and it was a well thought out and worded response. Thanks for the debate and I look forward to your response.

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Originally Posted by dboy

Papaw. The way I see it, the problem with this war is that we are there on false pretext. The stated reasons for being there, the weapons, the dictator, the chemical attacks (on his own people!) are all pretext. The actual reason we are there is because the US is attempting to fashion a world government. George Bush is only a figurehead here. Yes, I hate him and wish him ill, but the real enemies are in the background; the multinationals, the moneymen, and certain right-wing think-tanks. "Humanitarian reasons" are what's known as "spin". It's all bullshite. Iraq is NOW a haven for terrorism and is on the brink of a civil war. We have created the mind of a terrorist in every grief-stricken boy who's parents and families have been terrorized, maimed, and killed in this war. We have created 1000's of bin Laden's. How is that a humanitarian solution? How is dropping bombs EVER a humanitarian solution? We are there for ONE reason: To assert our global domination. That is all. Nothing else. The LAST thing the US cares about is people, foreign or domestic. That is why, in my opinion, if you are an American soldier, you are a terrorist. Look at the actions of your government. Look at what is left of the other countries we have "liberated". Look at Granada, Korea, Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia, Nicaragua, and now Iraq. Hussein is !NOTHING! in comparison to what our curent and past presidents have done, both Democrat and Republican. Hussein was a tin-pot half-assed sadist with a really bad taste for fashion and interior design. The US government has turned sadism into an art form. We have learned how to kill with precision. We have learned how to control journalists in such a way that they can be on the ground, in the battle, and still not report the war with anything close to accuracy. We are so proud of ourselves and our art of war. We are mystified by new phrases such as "Shock and Awe" and "Command and Control" and "Daisy-Cutter Bombs". The US is in the midst of an orgasm of violence and we are loving every minute of it. We have created our own Roman Colliseum, where gladiators engage in blood sport for our entertainment, which we can tune into anytime on CNN or FoxNews. But this is just my opinion...

dboy

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