Thoughts on China....HELP

Hey Fengi...or anyone else with an opinion.

I am still struggling with the China issues. I have been reading everything I can find on China and Chinese culture, but it has not put my mind at ease.

I read this article in the Washington Post and it only adds more confusion
I don't want to be paranoid and I am trying to see both sides of this situation....

I understand that China is advancing Economically at a rapid rate and yes it could be good for both economies at some point. Our government sees China as billions of new customers.....
I can understand how free trade could help both countries but I still have issues.

The US and China are both racing to buy up natural resources to fuel their hunger for energy.
They are buying up oil fields and mineral rights all over this planet and they are getting them at great cost to humanity.. I have been following this for some time,...I've posted on it before..

I noticed the "resource rush" when I was watching arms sales. If you look at the macro view, anywhere in the world there is conflict you will find US weapons, and US soldiers either current military or retired private contractors working for the military.

There will always be a spike in arms sells to any area where corporations are setting up shop AND you will find a Chinese or US company in the heat of it tying up oil fields or buying land to build plants, etc..
.
During Clinton's first year in office, U.S. arms sales more than doubled. From 1993 to 1997, the U.S. government sold, approved, or gave away $190 billion in weapons to virtually every nation on earth.

http://www.motherjones.com/news/special_reports/arms/

even non arms sells corporations are involved in the violence.
http://www.killercoke.org/

Of course under Bush sells have sky rocketed as well.

The problem is not only the humanitarian issues on both sides. There is concern over what China is doing with the profits from their investments..

We already know the US gov. goes into countries and fuels conflict in order to sell arms, and to secure corporatate profits... that is bad enough
but China is not just buying it is rapidly building an arsenal.
At least that is what most news sites are reporting.
I have not read anything to the contrary. While we are spending all our money in Iraq and various other sites around the globe ,China is building a huge arsenal. Why?

China passed a law saying if Taiwan attempts to succeed they will attack them and the US has vowed to protect Taiwan. We sold Taiwan 500 million dollars in weapons. We also sold Japan 1.4 billion dollars in weapons last year alone.....for the same purpose to protect against China.

Here is part of the post article...

China is building its military forces faster than U.S. intelligence and military analysts expected, prompting fears that Beijing will attack Taiwan in the next two years, according to Pentagon officials.
U.S. defense and intelligence officials say all the signs point in one troubling direction: Beijing then will be forced to go to war with the United States, which has vowed to defend Taiwan against a Chinese attack.
China's military buildup includes an array of new high-technology weapons, such as warships, submarines, missiles and a maneuverable warhead designed to defeat U.S. missile defenses. Recent intelligence reports also show that China has stepped up military exercises involving amphibious assaults, viewed as another sign that it is preparing for an attack on Taiwan.


"We may be seeing in China the first true fascist society on the model of Nazi Germany, where you have this incredible resource base in a commercial economy with strong nationalism, which the military was able to reach into and ramp up incredible production," a senior defense official said.

They are comparing China to Nazi Germany for god sakes.

Look at this closing statement--------------> "Let's all wake up. The post-Cold War peace is over," Mr. Fisher said. "We are now in an arms race with a new superpower whose goal is to contain and overtake the United States."

Don't get me wrong I have nothing against the Chinese people. I love their culture.

My problem has aways been with governments.

I don't think the cold war was ever over the lines have simply been re drawn...


Entire article (please read)
http://www.washtimes.com/specialrepo...2138-1088r.htm

your thoughts on this?

Another interesting hot spot in the world. I don't think the "High Tech" weapons they are getting would mean shit as compared to ours. I just read an article that stated they purchased $6 billion worth from Russia....we've been destroying Russia's top line shit whenever we confront it.

As for Taiwan, I don't think that the U.N. has recognized it as a soverign state which means basically that China has full right to exercise it's right to reclaim its lands from rebels. Does that make it right, no. But that will be the interpretation to the U.N.

It's in both interests that the U.S. and China negotiate this over. I'm sure some dirty deal will be arranged .....under the table of course!

But they aren't negotiating..... They are POSTERING.
The US is selling arms to Tiawan and they are pushing Japan to buy MORE arms.....how is that working it out?

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Originally Posted by BlueCat

But they aren't negotiating..... They are POSTERING.
The US is selling arms to Tiawan and they are pushing Japan to buy MORE arms.....how is that working it out?

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Force against force leads to negotiations. If China had it in mind it would be a walk, they would have already done it. Arms race in Asia! Kinda like the cold war, U.S. and U.S.S.R. were assured mutual destruction which brought us to the talking tables. I guess Tiawan and Japan are hoping for the same. Maybe?

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Originally Posted by BlueCat

But they aren't negotiating..... They are POSTERING.
The US is selling arms to Tiawan and they are pushing Japan to buy MORE arms.....how is that working it out?

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Force against force leads to negotiations. If China had it in mind it would be a walk, they would have already done it. Arms race in Asia! Kinda like the cold war, U.S. and U.S.S.R. were assured mutual destruction which brought us to the talking tables. I guess Tiawan and Japan are hoping for the same. Maybe?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BlueCat

But they aren't negotiating..... They are POSTERING.
The US is selling arms to Tiawan and they are pushing Japan to buy MORE arms.....how is that working it out?

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Force against force leads to negotiations. If China had it in mind it would be a walk, they would have already done it. Arms race in Asia! Kinda like the cold war, U.S. and U.S.S.R. were assured mutual destruction which brought us to the talking tables. I guess Tiawan and Japan are hoping for the same. Maybe?

the USSR fell economically...that ended the cold war...they spent a fortune fighting the Afgan war...
sound familiar?

Not at all, the Afghanistan issue is U.N. because we took a hit. Iraq isn't being fought in the same terms as the U.S.S.R. did in Afghanistan. We plan on pulling out, the U.S.S.R. was trying to preserve a providence against the wishes of all the people.

US troops start firing at syrians across the border...US builds forward base near border...

8 U.S. troops killed in Iraq as fighting intensifies at Syria border

U.S. forces in western Iraq are facing fierce resistance to their new effort to take control of the Syrian border, with car bombs and an apparent ambush killing eight U.S. troops in a single day, Army and Marine officials said yesterday.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...21_iraq03.html

the last 3 days in iraq.....210 different attacks

21 marines killed

1,800 mark crossed (# of US soldiers killed since May 2003)

president leaves for longest presidential vacation in 39 years (5 weeks, his 50th vacation in 5 years), beating his personal record which he set in the weeks prior to sept. 11, 2001)


Yep really looks like we are wrapping things up... :rolleyes:

Taiwan attempts to succeed...succeed = secede....LMAO
I was half asleep when I wrote this...I wish the edit button stayed longer....

pardon the typo on your name as well Fengzi ..... :)

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Originally Posted by BlueCat

US troops start firing at syrians across the border...US builds forward base near border...

8 U.S. troops killed in Iraq as fighting intensifies at Syria border

U.S. forces in western Iraq are facing fierce resistance to their new effort to take control of the Syrian border, with car bombs and an apparent ambush killing eight U.S. troops in a single day, Army and Marine officials said yesterday.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...21_iraq03.html

the last 3 days in iraq.....210 different attacks

21 marines killed

1,800 mark crossed (# of US soldiers killed since May 2003)

president leaves for longest presidential vacation in 39 years (5 weeks, his 50th vacation in 5 years), beating his personal record which he set in the weeks prior to sept. 11, 2001)


Yep really looks like we are wrapping things up... :rolleyes:

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Their nearing the end of writing the constitution, they have close to 160,000 troops trained, their talking of pulling out in 2006. Shit takes time, as for the Syrian border, when you have insurgents jumping from border to border...there will be exchanges in gun fire. But this time....well, read my signature! :D

Oh, Justice will be served and the battle will rage.
This big dog will fight when you rattle his cage
You'll be sorry that you messed with the US of A
'Cuz we'll put a boot in your ass
It's the American way.

Oh yeah sure that makes me feel better... :rolleyes:
The American way is to sell weapons and kill? You sound proud.

not only to sell weapons and kill...you gotta 'accidentally' train the very terrorists that are going to 'attack' you in this country...then protect and pay the 'terrorists'...so you have an excuse to nuke some people...

bush is on a 5 week vacation at his TV sound stage in Crawford where they can hide with no one around miles and miles...we're under very similar circumstances that led to the 9/11...

Ever hear the term "keeping up with the Jones" ? It's all about saving face which is very big in Chinese/Taiwanese (pretty much all Asian) culture.

China is a huge country with a rapidly growing economy but a military which is sorely lacking, at least compared to the U.S. It's an embarassment to be this giant superpower with a shitty miltary so they build it up. Doesn't neccessarily mean they wil use it. They just want to be able to say they can. Kind of like owning a Hummer. How many people who own them would ever risk a scratch by taking them off road. But they sure look impressive(at least the owners think so) and its nice to know they could go off road if they wanted to but really who will.

As far as Taiwan is concerned, this seems to be an issue that is of more concern to us than most Taiwanese or Chinese. There's a lot of posturing in the name of saving face but its unlikely that either side will do anything. Taiwan companies invest billions of $ in Mainland China each year. Why would they do this if they thought war was a strong possibility within the next few years?

My companies headquarters is in Taiwan, with offices in Shanghai, Beijing, HK, and Chengdu. I speak with these people daily. None of the people in Taiwan that I work with actually support declaring independence. They know it would be suicide. Most are actually very vocal in their disagreement with their current governments posturing. And, while most mainland Chinese that I know will be more than happy to state that Taiwan is actually just another province of China none support any kind of military action to support their claim.

As I've mentioned before, China (and Taiwan) is doing very well right now. They don't want to screw it up. China isn't some rogue state with a psychotic dictator who doesn't care if his country is wiped out. They know that any war with Taiwan or the U.S would be fought on their own ground. Even if nukes weren't used the damages to their infrastructure, cities, and economy, not to mention the loss of life, would be devastating to their own country. It's not like sending a bunch of kids to die in a desert on the other side of the world. It would hit home and the leaders friends, families, and themselves would be in danger. They know it.

Most Americans take a very ethnocentric view of the world. We(myself included) think that the U.S. is the best country in the world. The problem is that too many of us (myself not included) think that everyone else should be just like us. Unfortunately, while they may want some of what we have they certainly don't want everything. Instead of pointing the finger at other countries who don't share all of our views and values we should try to have a bit of empathy and step into their shoes for a minute.

Think about it, how much does the U.S. spend on its military each year? Why is it ok for us to do it but when another country does they must be intent on taking over the world? How many times in the last 50 years has China sent troops into a foriegn country? How many times has the U.S.? We seem pretty intent on spreading democracy to the Middle East. So intent that we've invaded two soveriegn countries within the last 5 years. Once the Middle East becomes one big American miltary base what's to stop us from going further. Is it any wonder that China wants to build it's military?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BlueCat

Oh, Justice will be served and the battle will rage.
This big dog will fight when you rattle his cage
You'll be sorry that you messed with the US of A
'Cuz we'll put a boot in your ass
It's the American way.

Oh yeah sure that makes me feel better... :rolleyes:
The American way is to sell weapons and kill? You sound proud.

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You got people sneaking across the border to set off road side bombs and you point the finger at the U.S. .....come on now! By the way, I think Syria has been buying their toys from Russia and France! NOT the U.S. :D

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Originally Posted by pisshead

not only to sell weapons and kill...you gotta 'accidentally' train the very terrorists that are going to 'attack' you in this country...then protect and pay the 'terrorists'...so you have an excuse to nuke some people...

bush is on a 5 week vacation at his TV sound stage in Crawford where they can hide with no one around miles and miles...we're under very similar circumstances that led to the 9/11...

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Are we still talking about the insurgents from SYRIA going into Iraq? Thats o.k., I haven't had a chance to smoke yet today...work ya know! :(

meanwhile, there are hundreds of murders by mexican gangs...killing citizens of this country, cops, border patrol...blowing up cars...

imagine if "al-qaeda" was doing that, blowing up cars in the downtown of a US city...i can picture the headlines...nope, it's just those mexican gangs we 'accidentally' trained and armed. 99.9% of it never makes the nightly news...my brother was a border patrol agent...most people have no idea what's going on on our border...but they know all about syria and iran...

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Originally Posted by Fengzi

Ever hear the term "keeping up with the Jones" ? It's all about saving face which is very big in Chinese/Taiwanese (pretty much all Asian) culture.

China is a huge country with a rapidly growing economy but a military which is sorely lacking, at least compared to the U.S. It's an embarassment to be this giant superpower with a shitty miltary so they build it up. Doesn't neccessarily mean they wil use it. They just want to be able to say they can. Kind of like owning a Hummer. How many people who own them would ever risk a scratch by taking them off road. But they sure look impressive(at least the owners think so) and its nice to know they could go off road if they wanted to but really who will.


If ya got a 4x4 you play with it...unless your a yuppie!
They had a military mind of more men was better. Guess what? It don't work today and they realize it. THAT's why their changing stratagies, not just to have it around. Get real!

As far as Taiwan is concerned, this seems to be an issue that is of more concern to us than most Taiwanese or Chinese. There's a lot of posturing in the name of saving face but its unlikely that either side will do anything. Taiwan companies invest billions of $ in Mainland China each year. Why would they do this if they thought war was a strong possibility within the next few years?

Another history major! O.K., the Taiwan people want to become one with mother China, it's the U.S. blocking it! :rolleyes:

My companies headquarters is in Taiwan, with offices in Shanghai, Beijing, HK, and Chengdu. I speak with these people daily. None of the people in Taiwan that I work with actually support declaring independence. They know it would be suicide. Most are actually very vocal in their disagreement with their current governments posturing. And, while most mainland Chinese that I know will be more than happy to state that Taiwan is actually just another province of China none support any kind of military action to support their claim.

Maybe they're the minority? NO, that could never be!

As I've mentioned before, China (and Taiwan) is doing very well right now. They don't want to screw it up. China isn't some rogue state with a psychotic dictator who doesn't care if his country is wiped out. They know that any war with Taiwan or the U.S would be fought on their own ground. Even if nukes weren't used the damages to their infrastructure, cities, and economy, not to mention the loss of life, would be devastating to their own country. It's not like sending a bunch of kids to die in a desert on the other side of the world. It would hit home and the leaders friends, families, and themselves would be in danger. They know it.

Damn right they know it! Go into google search under china border disbutes, find out how well your precious China gets along with its neighbors. The only ones they sign any type of agreements with are the ones that could cook their asses with a nuke. FACT!

Most Americans take a very ethnocentric view of the world. We(myself included) think that the U.S. is the best country in the world. The problem is that too many of us (myself not included) think that everyone else should be just like us. Unfortunately, while they may want some of what we have they certainly don't want everything. Instead of pointing the finger at other countries who don't share all of our views and values we should try to have a bit of empathy and step into their shoes for a minute.

I don't consider us perfect and I surely don't see them as such. They have different cultures and beliefs and I don't think that I, or we, should shove our ways down anyones throat. But I'll be damned if we should let some punk bitch country like Afghanistan do to us what was done!

Think about it, how much does the U.S. spend on its military each year? Why is it ok for us to do it but when another country does they must be intent on taking over the world? How many times in the last 50 years has China sent troops into a foriegn country? How many times has the U.S.? We seem pretty intent on spreading democracy to the Middle East. So intent that we've invaded two soveriegn countries within the last 5 years. Once the Middle East becomes one big American miltary base what's to stop us from going further. Is it any wonder that China wants to build it's military?

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Fact is the U.S. is the military top dog. What does it mean to be top dog? Everyone with an agenda wants to knock ya off the top. Football superbowl, baseball.... you name the sport and the goal is to knock out last years champs and not just beat but humiliate! Don't think we should invest in the latest and greatest of technologies...get serious!

We invaded the soveriegn country of Afghanistan? So you must believe that the WTC fell down all by itself to! Iraq defied U.N. resolutions but the fucking French, Germans, Russians, and your precious China all loved the kick backs!

Oh well, you got your opinion and I got mine. We can both state them without fear of being arrested. Isn't America great! :D

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Originally Posted by pisshead

meanwhile, there are hundreds of murders by mexican gangs...killing citizens of this country, cops, border patrol...blowing up cars...

imagine if "al-qaeda" was doing that, blowing up cars in the downtown of a US city...i can picture the headlines...nope, it's just those mexican gangs we 'accidentally' trained and armed. 99.9% of it never makes the nightly news...my brother was a border patrol agent...most people have no idea what's going on on our border...but they know all about syria and iran...

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There are 950,000 gang bangers in the U.S. ....and did I say that we live in a completely safe country. NO! We have internal terrorists also. But I sure ain't going to blame the government for supplying the cops guns if a banger takes out his hate on a cop. See the similarity?

especially if it's the 'gang' your government funded and trained 'banger' and uses to protect their vital illegal drug running activities...don't pay your cut to the feds...watch out, you might get your car blown up.

imagine if "bin laden" or "al qaeda" was behind car bombings in the US by US funded and trained gangs so they could more easily control the heroin and coke that comes in.

but let's not talk about our terrorism.

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Originally Posted by pisshead

especially if it's the 'gang' your government funded and trained 'banger' and uses to protect their vital illegal drug running activities...don't pay your cut to the feds...watch out, you might get your car blown up.

imagine if "bin laden" or "al qaeda" was behind car bombings in the US by US funded and trained gangs so they could more easily control the heroin and coke that comes in.

but let's not talk about our terrorism.

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O.k. after all, the thread is named "thoughts on china" so I'll agree, lets not talk about the U.S.

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Originally Posted by Psycho4Bud

If ya got a 4x4 you play with it...unless your a yuppie!
They had a military mind of more men was better. Guess what? It don't work today and they realize it. THAT's why their changing stratagies, not just to have it around. Get real!

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I'm not sure where you live but I can't tell you how many times I see some Silicon Valley housewife driving around in a sparkling shiny Hummer or BMW X5. Yep, they're driven by yuppies and like the U.S's nukes, they aint never gonna be used for what they were designed for. Or are they ;)

You're right about China changing strategies because they realized what they had wouldn't work. Still doesn't change my point though. They want to be a big superpower and a modern military goes along with that.

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Originally Posted by Psycho4Bud

Another history major! O.K., the Taiwan people want to become one with mother China, it's the U.S. blocking it!

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Huh? What did my point have to do with history. And when did I say the Taiwanese wnated to go back to mother China? All I said was that we in the U.S. are more concerned with the Taiwan issue than the Taiwanese.

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Originally Posted by Psycho4Bud

Maybe they're the minority? NO, that could never be!

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Maybe so, but how many Taiwanese and mainland Chinese do you speak with on a daily basis? How many times have you been to either country? I'm basing my opinion on what I have heard from actual people in the actual countries, not what the U.S media wants me to beleive.

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Originally Posted by Psycho4Bud

Damn right they know it! Go into google search under china border disbutes, find out how well your precious China gets along with its neighbors. The only ones they sign any type of agreements with are the ones that could cook their asses with a nuke. FACT!

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You mean India, Vietnam, Russia, Tibet? I know my Chinese history, I don't need Google. But isn't this a good case of the pot calling the kettle black? The only difference is that China doesn't have the ability to go as far as we do for it's disputes.

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Originally Posted by Psycho4Bud

I don't consider us perfect and I surely don't see them as such. They have different cultures and beliefs and I don't think that I, or we, should shove our ways down anyones throat. But I'll be damned if we should let some punk bitch country like Afghanistan do to us what was done!

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For the record I don't have any problem with our going into Afghanistan. It was the appropriate response to 9/11. I'm not sure where you got the idea that I was against it. Iraq's another story but its off topic. Anyhow, my point wasn't neccessarily to bash our foriegn policy as much as it was to point out that in the eyes of another country, who doesn't always see eye to eye with us, the U.S is fully capable and willing to enforce its own agenda, whether right or wrong, militarily.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Psycho4Bud

What does it mean to be top dog? Everyone with an agenda wants to knock ya off the top. Football superbowl, baseball.... you name the sport and the goal is to knock out last years champs and not just beat but humiliate!

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Me get serious? This isn't sports and it isn't a game. You actually think China sees us as their Mt. Everest? Something to conquer simply because we're there? Come on Psycho, I've read your posts. I know you're more intelligent than that. They just want to be damned sure we don't see them as our Everest.

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Originally Posted by Psycho4Bud

Don't think we should invest in the latest and greatest of technologies...get serious!

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I have no problems with us haveing the latest and greatest. Makes me proud to be an American. But does that mean we want to take over the world? Well, maybe Georgie Porgie but not America as a whole. If we don't though, why does it mean they do when they want the latest and greatest?

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Originally Posted by Psycho4Bud

Isn't America great!

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Absofuckinlutely!! No arguments here.

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Originally Posted by Fengzi

I'm not sure where you live but I can't tell you how many times I see some Silicon Valley housewife driving around in a sparkling shiny Hummer or BMW X5. Yep, they're driven by yuppies and like the U.S's nukes, they aint never gonna be used for what they were designed for. Or are they ;)

I hope to hell their not! If we use ours that will be a retaliation of someone pressing their button...at least I hope!

You're right about China changing strategies because they realized what they had wouldn't work. Still doesn't change my point though. They want to be a big superpower and a modern military goes along with that.

That's a fact! Hell, they got us, N. Korea, Russia, India...alot of nuke powers out there besides us! China's doin' what they got to do! I'm not against the Chineese system of communism. If that's what their happy with, I'm happy for them. If it's working, why fix it?

Huh? What did my point have to do with history. And when did I say the Taiwanese wnated to go back to mother China? All I said was that we in the U.S. are more concerned with the Taiwan issue than the Taiwanese.

China, I believe, gave Taiwan until 2010. I'm sure their crapping their pants more than you or me.

Maybe so, but how many Taiwanese and mainland Chinese do you speak with on a daily basis? How many times have you been to either country? I'm basing my opinion on what I have heard from actual people in the actual countries, not what the U.S media wants me to beleive.

If the majority of Taiwan people want to join the republic, they have a voice and they should use it.

You mean India, Vietnam, Russia, Tibet? I know my Chinese history, I don't need Google. But isn't this a good case of the pot calling the kettle black? The only difference is that China doesn't have the ability to go as far as we do for it's disputes.

Why not?

For the record I don't have any problem with our going into Afghanistan. It was the appropriate response to 9/11. I'm not sure where you got the idea that I was against it. Iraq's another story but its off topic. Anyhow, my point wasn't neccessarily to bash our foriegn policy as much as it was to point out that in the eyes of another country, who doesn't always see eye to eye with us, the U.S is fully capable and willing to enforce its own agenda, whether right or wrong, militarily.

I agree, the same way that I feel that the French are behind alot of the problems. But thats just my opinion. I am definately glad to see that we at least see eye to eye on Afghanistan though!! :D

Me get serious? This isn't sports and it isn't a game. You actually think China sees us as their Mt. Everest? Something to conquer simply because we're there? Come on Psycho, I've read your posts. I know you're more intelligent than that. They just want to be damned sure we don't see them as our Everest.

I don't really feel they want to conquer us but I also don't believe they want to be seen as number 2 or 3. I have no problem with equals. AS LONG as all these political pricks understand the meaning of mutual destruction!!!

I have no problems with us haveing the latest and greatest. Makes me proud to be an American. But does that mean we want to take over the world? Well, maybe Georgie Porgie but not America as a whole. If we don't though, why does it mean they do when they want the latest and greatest?

Depends who your talking about. If it's China, hell, they're just looking out for their best interests. Iran, with some mullah that thinks it would be cool to get nuked out in a response of a nuke and die for Allah. Thats alot different! These people take young idiots and make them believe that strapping a bomb on your ass and blowing up civilians is the way to go. Sure don't see Osama or Zarqawi doing that shit...hell, they keep running for the hills! Why not die for Allah Osama??? PUSSY!!!!


Absofuckinlutely!! No arguments here.

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Back to sports! Remember when the Cowboys had their dynasty? Oh no, M. Irvin got a B.J., this linesman caught smokin pot, etc........ all out after number one! Same with us, we don't read on the dirty crap these other countries do because their not #1 on the hit chart..we are. Wherever we are, 9 chances out of 10 you'll see the Brits but who gets all the bad press? Look at the Middle East and Africa, it sure wasn't the U.S. setting up our empires in them countries. Great Britain, France, Spain all had their fun raping these countries of their riches.
Great Britain set up Israel, France supplied nuclear technology and we get the shit for being the dirty birds watching over her! Just gets old!!!

It's starting to sound like we really agree on the basics here if not the fine details. And, I think we definitely agree that when all is said and done the fundy Muslims are much more of an immediate threat than China. Pakistan is who worries me the most. I can't beleive I'm the only one who can see some parallels between them and Iran 20 years ago. How long before some charismatic, hard core, fundamentalist comes to power after convincing the rest of the population that the Musharraf is just too accomodating to the Western heathens. Then it won't be about dealing with a fundy country who might be developing nukes. It will about dealing with a fundy country that already has them.

Hi Fengzi, thanks for the response....I have been reading things all day.

I found several interesting articles. It would seem the US is lying about the arms in order to pressure other governments...

China solemnly demands the U.S. conforms to the trend, respect the facts, correct its mistakes, stop attacking China with no concrete reason, and halt its interference in China's internal affairs as well as the remarks and acts infringing Sino-US relations

http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/feature.htm

By deliberately exaggerating the military imbalance across the Taiwan Straits, the Pentagon's report is designed to strengthen its case for Taiwan buying more advanced US weapons, said the commentary.
The Pentagon also wants, by selling the China threat theory, to pressure the European Union (EU) not to lift its arms embargo against China and to dissuade Israel from selling weapons to China, it added.

http://taiwansecurity.org/News/2005/XH-220705.htm

Defense budgets are a mirror to a country's strategic intentions and its potential to threaten others. It comes as no surprise therefore that the many China watchers in the West keep a close eye on any movement in the China's defense spending. Recent remarks made by senior U.S. and Japanese officials have accused China of upping its spending in this area to alarming proportions.

But as Mao Zedong once said, "Seek truth from facts." A recent internationally accredited report on military matters, including expenditures, flies in the face of accusations leveled against China and puts the country's military spending into perspective.

China's military expenses had been overstated by the Pentagon by 71 percent.



I am still researching the Tiawan issue before I will comment completely. If they don't want independence from China then why are they practicing for an attack?

Taiwan staged military exercises yesterday aimed at repelling a Chinese invasion, a week after the United States said China's military modernization drive had tilted the balance in Beijing's favor.

http://www.taiwansecurity.org/Reu/20...ers-280705.htm



I don't like the fact that a top Chinese General has flat out threatened us...


â??If the Americans draw their missiles and position-guided ammunition on to the target zone on China's territory, I think we will have to respond with nuclear weapons,â?� said General Zhu Chenghu.

"We Chinese will prepare ourselves for the destruction of all of the cities east of Xian. Of course the Americans will have to be prepared that hundreds ... of cities will be destroyed by the Chinese," he added.

http://news.ft.com/cms/s/28cfe55a-f4...00e2511c8.html

I can see both Governments seem to be quilty here.....

"Billions of U.S. arms sales to Afghanistan in the 1980s ended up empowering Islamic fundamentalist fighters across the globe," notes report co-author William D. Hartung. "Our current policy of arming unstable regimes could have similarly disastrous consequences, with U.S.-supplied weapons falling into the hands of terrorists, insurgents, or hostile governments."

"Perhaps no single policy is more at odds with President Bushâ??s pledge to â??end tyranny in our worldâ?? than the United Statesâ?? role as the worldâ??s leading arms exporting nation,

As in the case of recent decisions to provide new F-16 fighter planes to Pakistan while pledging comparable high tech military hardware to its rival India, U.S. arms sometimes go to both sides in long brewing conflicts. And the tens of millions of U.S. arms transfers to Uzbekistan exemplify the negative consequences of arming repressive regimes.

http://www.worldpolicy.org/projects/...WaW052505.html

United States has had the largest share of both new contracts and deliveries to the world for at least eight years in a row. None of the other countries dealing in weapons come even close to the US in the total amount of weapons delivered to developing nations over the past decade. The total value of arms transfer agreements the US signed with the developing countries was 54.8 billion dollars, which was more than the value of arms exports by all the other major arms suppliers (France, Russia, UK and China) put together during the same period.

http://www.newsline.com.pk/NewsMay20...eatmay2005.htm

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fengzi

It's starting to sound like we really agree on the basics here if not the fine details. And, I think we definitely agree that when all is said and done the fundy Muslims are much more of an immediate threat than China. Pakistan is who worries me the most. I can't beleive I'm the only one who can see some parallels between them and Iran 20 years ago. How long before some charismatic, hard core, fundamentalist comes to power after convincing the rest of the population that the Musharraf is just too accomodating to the Western heathens. Then it won't be about dealing with a fundy country who might be developing nukes. It will about dealing with a fundy country that already has them.

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I agree about Pakistan...BAD situation!!! The only thing about them is that they hate the Hindu's of India just as much if not more than they hate us!

But Psycho we just sold Pakistan fighter jets and we are selling to India too.
How can you say you are worried about these countries but continue to support the US government as they are arming them?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BlueCat

But Psycho we just sold Pakistan fighter jets and we are selling to India too.
How can you say you are worried about these countries but continue to support the US government as they are arming them?

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I don't "worry" about any of these countries. Watch developements, yes! It's not as if we are arming these people to the point where their capable of invading us.

"Continue to support the US government"? How can I? Hell, thats easy. I'm a U.S. citizen, my father was in Korea, my son in Kosovo. This is MY country wrong or right and I will support her to the end. OH NO, patriotic bullshit!!! To bad! Everybody loves to slam dance on the U.S. but where are the posts of all the humanitarian aid? NONE!!! Tsunami hits who's one of the first on the scene with whatever is needed..HMMM, sure the hell not the French.

We're not perfect but we shine way the hell ahead of alot of others! When I did sales one of my product managers was from India. When a hurricane or some shit hit his "HOME COUNTRY" and killed thousands we had aid relief on TV and OUR country was sending aid. I talked to him on the phone and wished him the best; you know what his response was? "Thats just the scum! You Americans have all the aid crap and in my country we really don't care. They just repopulate anyways." Thats one of the main reasons why the U.S. shines!

You can concentrate on all the crap or look at the good. Tell me something though, if we are out for global domination why aren't Mexico and Canada states instead of independant countries? We could invade, take over, and the rest of the world would watch with their chins on their laps! Fuck it, you want to hate America go ahead, as for myself, I'll keep wavin' my flag! :D

China is up and coming and all they want is respect, but everyone knows the US will not even give CHina that, ever. I agree completely with Fengzi's post. For centuries China has had a pretty bad army, the only reason they were ever threat was because of sheer numbers. So they want a good, modern army? Let them have it. China is becoming more and more westernized every day, and if the pendulum ever swings the other way, the US won't need to do anything because it's the Chinese people themselves who will rise up against their government. China is expanding in all sectors, and is just feeling out its place in the world.

As for Taiwan, China will never attack.

And that comparison with Nazi Germany is sooooo stupid, if I was China I'd attack you on general principle.

you want to hate America go ahead,<-----------that is completely uncalled for and juvenile.
It just shows an extremely narrow mind. Questioning motive is not hating America. It looks as tho I have every right to question as the US is blowing the China threat way out of proportion.....

They have exaggerated the arms build up by 71 percent....
I am really disappointed with The Washington POst....

You are so egocentric Psycho when you and Fengzi said you were worried about Pakistan
I took it to mean you were worried about the arms build up between Pakistan and India NOT fear Pakistan would attack the US :rolleyes: Once again you make everything about the "US"

You complain about France selling arms in Africa yet you can't see the moral dilemma in selling Pakistan fighter jets then turning around and selling India the weapons to shoot them down? It is kinda chickenshit if you ask me...

I am seeing this as just more bullshit by our government and media.....
You can kiss the governments ass if you want....America is not a reflection of it's leaders no more than China is a reflection of one loud mouth general.

You keep waving your flag Psycho and I'll keep finding the facts...
WHO really loves their country the person standing with a piece of cloth and swallowing whatever they are fed or the person that wants to hold their country to the moral values for which it was founded?

Yes Flesh I agree China is up and coming....but we still need to find the basis for all the negative rhetoric that is being thrown around by both sides...and as always it is tied to ARMS Sales.
Thanks for your opinions, Fengzi and Flesh that's what I needed, some reassurance.
Reason is becoming harder and harder to find these days.... :)

I am not so worried about China attacking Tiawan....I am worried the US will push Tiawan into something. They have used these same tactics in other countries playing both sides against the middle....

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BlueCat

you want to hate America go ahead,<-----------that is completely uncalled for and juvenile.
It just shows an extremely narrow mind. Questioning motive is not hating America. It looks as tho I have every right to question as the US is blowing the China threat way out of proportion.....

I guess instead of politics this thread could be what has the U.S. done wrong today. Sorry!

They have exaggerated the arms build up by 71 percent....
I am really disappointed with The Washington POst....

You are so egocentric Psycho when you and Fengzi said you were worried about Pakistan
I took it to mean you were worried about the arms build up between Pakistan and India NOT fear Pakistan would attack the US :rolleyes: Once again you make everything about the "US"

My ACTUAL quote regarding Pakistan:
"I agree about Pakistan...BAD situation!!!" No mention of "worry" from me. :D

You complain about France selling arms in Africa yet you can't see the moral dilemma in selling Pakistan fighter jets then turning around and selling India the weapons to shoot them down? It is kinda chickenshit if you ask me...

Which would you prefer to sell to or should we let the sales go to other countries?

I am seeing this as just more bullshit by our government and media.....
You can kiss the governments ass if you want....America is not a reflection of it's leaders no more than China is a reflection of one loud mouth general.

Who's kissing ass? Did someone wake up on the wrong side of the bed this morning? I still love ya!!! :D

You keep waving your flag Psycho and I'll keep finding the facts...
WHO really loves their country the person standing with a piece of cloth and swallowing whatever they are fed or the person that wants to hold their country to the moral values for which it was founded?

If I don't care for the job their doing I vote to have them fired. Pure and simple.

Yes Flesh I agree China is up and coming....but we still need to find the basis for all the negative rhetoric that is being thrown around by both sides...and as always it is tied to ARMS Sales.
Thanks for your opinions, Fengzi and Flesh that's what I needed, some reassurance.
Reason is becoming harder and harder to find these days.... :)

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Your not going to thank me too? I'm hurt!!! :(

I've got no bitch with China. They needed to change philosophies on their military and like many other countries are upgrading. Who am I to bitch about their system. If their people like it, great for them. Peace!!!! :D

Which would you prefer to sell to or should we let the sales go to other countries?

I would prefer the ARMS selling sanctions for all G8 contires that were in place be put back in place.

Bush removed all sanctions on sales to third world countires so any country can sell to anyone, including Iran and Syria.


It's not as if we are arming these people to the point where their capable of invading us....

Its not always about invading us.. :rolleyes: it is wrong to sale arms to both sides of a conflict. The sole purpose here is for the US to make money.

Our country is a fucking ARMS whore. DO anything for a buck.

BTW, a little historical fact that could shed light on the current issues: on this day in 1914, Great Britain declared war on Germany, effectively marking the beginning of WW1. The reasoons for this are so complex and long, but one of the main reasons was due to a massive arms race between these 2 countries. GB was strengthening its already powerful fleet like mad, but Germany was keeping up almost ship for ship. This is but one example.

But basically it amounted to this: tensions growing exponentially between nations until the bubble finally burst. Archduke Ferdinand was just the spark that lit the fuse.

And there were also a series of smaller-scaled wars that led up to it. Starting with the revolutions of 1848, the Crimean War, the Franco-Prussian war when Germany finally unified and instantly became a super-power, the Boer War in South Africa, the first revolution in Russia, the Russo-Japanese war where Japan declared itself as a major power, and finally the war in the Balkans.

It's a really fascinating history, IMHO moreso than WW2. Plus, some of the things happening about 100 years ago seem to be replaying themselves again, only with different players. Hopefully the conclusion won't be the same...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BlueCat

I would prefer the ARMS selling sanctions for all G8 contires that were in place be put back in place.

Bush removed all sanctions on sales to third world countires so any country can sell to anyone, including Iran and Syria.

Its not always about invading us.. :rolleyes: it is wrong to sale arms to both sides of a conflict. The sole purpose here is for the US to make money.

Our country is a fucking ARMS whore. DO anything for a buck.

---

Your saying that the Clinton administration didn't sell arms to third world countries?

Arms sales are big buisiness. Like I stated, if we didn't do it, another country would.

WE are the arms whores....o.k. :rolleyes:
NO other country sells any arms, its allllll the U.S.! God love America!!! :D

No I never said Clinton did not sell arms...In fact I have posted that he was the major problem so don't put words in my mouth.

Yes arms sales is big business, and it is the corporations that make the arms that are running our government....

1993: A US Code of Conduct bill has been introduced in successive sessions of Congress since 1993.

1995: a group of Nobel Peace Laureates, led by former Costa Rican President Oscar Arias, proposed a comprehensive International Code of Conduct.

1998: the European Union (EU) accepted a regional Code of Conduct, the first group of states to do so.

In 1999, US Congress passed the International Code of Conduct Act, requiring the administration to pursue a multilateral agreement on uniform, strict export standards.

At the December 2000 US-EU Summit, the US and EU agreed to work together on this type of agreement.

Common themes in such codes include:

Not selling arms to non-democratic regimes, or regimes that will use the weapons to commit human rights abuses;
Not selling weapons where internal or external conflicts may be fueled;
Not selling weapons that could undermine development and thus increase poverty.

The arms industry is unlike any other. It operates without regulation. It suffers from widespread corruption and bribes. And it makes its profits on the back of machines designed to kill and maim human beings.

So who profits most from this murderous trade? The five permanent members of the UN Security Council - the USA, UK, France, Russia, and China. Together, they are responsible for eighty eight per cent of reported conventional arms exports.

Global military expenditure and arms trade is also the largest spending in the world at 900 billion dollars, annually.
As world trade globalizes, so does the trade in arms. In order to make up for lack of domestic sales, newer markets must be created.

USA, Russia, France and Britain do the largest businesses of arms trade in the world. Sometimes, these arms sales are made secretly and sometimes knowingly to human rights violators, military dictatorships and corrupt governments. This does not promote democracy in those nations.

http://www.globalissues.org/Geopolit...igBusiness.asp

The biggest arms dealer in the world--for decades running--has been the U.S. government. From 1996 to 2003, the U.S. supplied about 40 percent of the worldâ??s weapons each year. By comparison, Russia, the second biggest arms pusher, supplied about 15 percent.

During that period, the U.S. sold more than $100 billion worth of weapons--everything from small arms to land mines to ballistic missiles. The buyers were governments around the globe, through both direct Foreign Military Sales (direct sales by the U.S. government to various government) and Commercial Sales (sales by U.S. companies to foreign governments, with the approval of Washington).

For all of the Bush administrationâ??s rhetoric about fighting the â??war on terror,â?� according to a recently released report from the World Policy Institute (WPI), some of the U.S. governmentâ??s largest customers are involved in active conflicts--sometimes with each other.

http://www.socialistworker.org/2005-...msDealer.shtml

Communist deserve no respect