For Makor1, Psycho4Bud, Amsterdam....

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Nich sometimes i dont get you, honestly (and dont think im insulting you) you seem like youre more on the side of the jihadists/terrorists. Then other times it seems that youre not...its hard to read you sometimes.

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Makor1 posted that. When i read it, I got to thinking about just how it could be construed that i support jihadists/terrorists. This post was originally intended for makor but i figured psycho and amsterdam would insult me anyway once i presented my "liberal" and "anti-american" views.

I'd like to know just how makor could say i side with terrorists. I've NEVER given my support for terrorism. I've only criticised the american policy of going after said terrorists. To tell you the truth, I think those guys have a right to burn flags, spit on pictures of america and proclaim how much they hate our western policies and ways. That's fine with me because they have a right to do whatever they want. Now when those same guys take it upon themselves to blow up innocent people or raise their hands to hurt another human being, then that's where i draw the line. When you hurt someone else you're way out of your boundaries. When you force your opinions and beliefs on others forcibly you're way out of boundaries. So i don't "side" with terrorists or love terrorists, I hate them.

Do i support terrorists because I hate how american troops are sent into cities with huge ballistics weapons designed for field exercise? Do i support terrorists because I have a problem with the fact that when those weapons are used, innocent people get caught in the crossfire? Keeping in mind i dont hate soldiers but their orders sent from higher up with the right's beloved bush.

Do i support terrorists because I'm not gullible enough to believe the false "democracy" that's been set up? A democracy that was illegally enforced on a populace? Because i don't think it's right that there's an attitude of "well we took out saddam so this new way is alot better, wouldn't you agree?" It took 400 years to drum the idea of non-slavery to alot of americans and there are STILL people who disagree. I'm glad that we got through segregation movements but how can we in our free north america beleieve with such arrogance that freedom can be forced upon those with no position to oppose?

Do i support terrorists because I know that most of us supported a war that was waged under false pretenses? A war that's been proven time and time again to have been pre-meditated? With credible proof that both the Bush admin. and Blair admin. wanted to go into war to solidify their power in the global economy?

Do i support terrorists because I dare to bring up that others deserve life and liberty and freedom even though they live outside our fairy tale western civilisation? Because I dare say that we're doing it the wrong way and doing more harm than good?


I dont support terrorists. I support doing what's right. I support those that refuse to blindly follow government. Everything's not black and white. Critisizing practices that denounce the freedoms we love does not constitute siding with terrorists. How the hell am i the enemy? How? How the hell could we have gotten to the point where the head of Homeland Security tells the President that torture is okay even if torturing to death and we dont rally everyone together for change on that alone? That's not enough? How about statements from both Donald Rumsfeld and John Ashcroft on tape saying hat Constitutional rights are expendable? I'm the enemy because I point out that the borders are wide open but bush refuses to do anything about it even while Bush tells everyone that security at home is the biggest issue?


To anyone that reads a post on these boards talking about what's going wrong with the world dont be so quick to critique because of the "unpatriotic" comments. I think those that question ond speculate love their country the most. If we didn't have people like alex jones or greg palast or even Bluecat and pisshead and marlboroman we'd be up shit's creek because noone would oppose a way to comfortable and corrupt government.

If we had listened to these people in the first place, then we might not be in a predicament with over 100,000 iraqi civilian casualties. We might not have over 6000 american casualties (i know that the official toll is less than 2000 but im including the mercenaries and psy ops that "never exist") with thousands more injuries. I know people like amsterdam tend to glorify war wounds as some kind of videogame but i mean serious injuries like lost limbs and horrible burns all over their bodies, paralysis etc. etc.

How convenient to call me a terrorist abetter when the President and all his obedient intelligence operatives can't find Osama bin laden with all the high-tech spy equipment lying around and satellites in the air constantly recording movements in iraq. Anybody remember the tape of osama that conveniently popped up right before election saying that everyone should vote for john kerry? That was the most brilliant bit of reverse psychology ever. I saw democrats and republican people proudly line up to vote for Bush to signify a nice cheery "fuck you" to osama and the other terrorists in defiance and ultimately the innocent iraqi civilians it would seem. Everybody forgot that Ossie pointed out that they never attack a country that doesn't pose a threat to muslims. After Spain was bombed and troops withdrawn, there's no mention of terrorism anymore. It wasn't becase people were afraid, they were fed up with a false war and havng their soldiers play puppet for Bush. Simply put, If Bush was not given his power things would be FAR less tragic...but tragic none the less.

Whether you right-wingers want to believe it or not, America has posed a threat to Muslims for a while now. Not terrorists...MUSLIMS and other arab people. Ol' Texas southern fried Bush and his compatriates werent sitting around playing Halo for the last few years. They've been running bombing raids on Afghanistan and Iraq for YEARS before 9/11 was first coined. Those same jihadists you blindly hate have sat in their homes with bombs falling on them and their families long before most you guys even had pubes. I side with terrorists because I hate the life they've been pushed into because of OUR nonchalant attitude toward government foreign policy?

You look at any pictures of Afghanistan lately? Iraq? If so, any of them not prettily decorated by government liaisons? Notice how Afghanistan looks like a crumbling sand castle? America had nothing to do with it in its frenzied "kill the taliban" rampage but im sure all the terrorists did! I havnt seen any smiling children lately in iraq, even those surrounded by troops in american secured and occupied territory. Hmmm...I thought they wouldve been more grateful for their new-found freedom...but what do kids know about war? And I didnt just mean American 7 year olds.

Case in point, makor. If I seem to be siding or supporting terrorists then I dread to think of the war raging in iraq fought by an army that thinks of them as the "number one enemy".

"If you are against the war, you must be a peace-loving, tree-hugging, laissez faire liberal who condemns our troops, president and country and you have no respect for national pride and unity...

that is what they believe about anyone who exercises some degree of socratic, discriminating thought.

The number of people that assume they're qualified to judge any one of our reasons for questioning the validity of the war is disturbing. The number of people poised to paint every American as unAmerican who isn't in full support of it is also disturbing.

More than 200 hundred years ago, scores of people fled their country to escape political oppression. They landed here in North America and set to work crafting and defining a new system of government, A democracy in which issues were resolved by popular vote, and the freedom of dissent and the expression of it was foremost on the minds of those drafting the list of fundamental rights.

In this war, in this administration it's "You're Either With Us, Or You're With Them". As though there's no room for questioning, no grounds for intelligent thought or analysis. You may either take Washington words for gospel, with or without substantiation, or you're "one of them". A traitor. And you 'don't deserve the freedoms this country affords'.

Dissent? Unallowed.
Debate? Unamerican.
Free thinker? Find yourself another country.

The idea that disagreement with or criticism of a current administration's decision somehow equates into disloyalty and disdain for the country itself and what it stands for is asinine, and goes against every true and original 'American' philosophy...

Since when did passionate disagreement with a specific President's policy or decision making become synonymous with the bashing of military personnel and blatant anti-americanism?

You are not alone in your thinking Nic, Know that there are many Americans that feel the same way you do.

Cat

if you would of read further you would of seen what i was saying...all i meant was that you show more empathy for their casualties than you do for ours. i was not calling you a terrorist...i was simply stating that you seem to care more about how they defend their well being more than us. never once in any of these "debates" have i seen you condem the tactics used by jihiadists/afghans/iraq insurgents, instead all ive seen you complain about is how we "break the geneva conventions" and kill civilians with no regret. I hate to tell you this man but thats a fact of war when youre in an urban theater like iraq.

that was my point of that comment, if you want to take it as me calling you a "terrorist" well be my guest man but that wasnt what i was saying...stay black yo.

and i would really appreciate it if you dont assume that i share the same views as amsterdam, cause that guy is a total asshat.

HHmm some how I dont get the idea thats what Blue was saying bro.

Seemed more like he is in agreement with you. But its all in the way its percieved I guess.

Peace.

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Originally Posted by makor01

if you would of read further you would of seen what i was saying...all i meant was that you show more empathy for their casualties than you do for ours. i was not calling you a terrorist...i was simply stating that you seem to care more about how they defend their well being more than us. never once in any of these "debates" have i seen you condem the tactics used by jihiadists/afghans/iraq insurgents, instead all ive seen you complain about is how we "break the geneva conventions" and kill civilians with no regret. I hate to tell you this man but thats a fact of war when youre in an urban theater like iraq.

that was my point of that comment, if you want to take it as me calling you a "terrorist" well be my guest man but that wasnt what i was saying...stay black yo.

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I dont put down their tactics as much as i put down ours. It's horrible to run up to soldiers and suicide bomb them, but cmon. What do they have? The troops have all sorts of high-tech gadgetry for the element of surprise. Do you think that with all of this against them they're going to line up and take down the invaders John Wane style? I'm not condoning them but we need to face facts. American troops were sent to THEM. The have NO defenses. We have no right to go to their country start an unfair "war" on OUR terms kill their families and friends and get angry when they come up with a primitive tactic that just happens to be working. This war is our fault. not just bush and cheney and whoever. its OUR fault because when they said "war" we all stood to the side and let them march.

you obviously know nothing about american tactics...gizmos dont save people from sucicide bombers/IED's. You have yet to make an impact. Every arguement you try to make goes back to the same null and void facts.

i really think that you and i are gonna have to agree to disagree on this subject man...you bring up some good points on this matter...but youre not experienced enough in warfare to change my views.

about the only thing we can agree on is that we were mislead into this war..lets keep it at that.

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Originally Posted by makor01

you obviously know nothing about american tactics...gizmos dont save people from sucicide bombers/IED's. You have yet to make an impact. Every arguement you try to make goes back to the same null and void facts.

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I think you misunderstood me. I didnt mean gizmos save people i was stating that we have so much stealth gadgetry and so forth for pulling surprise hits on them. as much as most people wold love to envision a squad of troops bravely defending themselves to the last man in some bunker, we're on the offensive.

I didnt mean to get so boiled over the terrorist topic either. i'm cool with you alot actually. *nicholasstanko Pulls on his blunt and enjoys the smoke* you bring in valid points and they're pretty good. and sorry for groupin you with amsterdam he's a retard i know. *ns takes another pull and eases for he knows the weed is good* im just passionate about the corruption thats going on. soldiers on both fronts are dying all for the greed of an elite few. civilians are caught in the crossfire and thats wrong.

war is war. civilians will die. the day may be coming when it could be americans dying. canadians dying. i really fucking hope not but this shit is getting scarier everyday.

Gone are the days when the police found themselves powerless to arrest someone when they proudly proclaimed their constitutional rights. shit, nowadays the pigs laugh at you then taser your ass before they throw you in a cell and called it "suspicious terrorist activity".

Im not your enemy man. *ns pulls once more and gives thanks to the creator* I love the troops and i love america. How about a truce?

sounds cool to me man. :cool:

Our own nation is being torn in half, and punishing one another for having differing opinions is no good.

In an effort to save their culture, we are destroying our own. we're funneling resources away from our nation, our programs, our citizens...we have to stick together if we are going to stop this.....

Are we all on the same side now? I sure hope so... :D
Peace

Cat

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Originally Posted by nicholasstanko

I dont put down their tactics as much as i put down ours. It's horrible to run up to soldiers and suicide bomb them, but cmon. What do they have? The troops have all sorts of high-tech gadgetry for the element of surprise. Do you think that with all of this against them they're going to line up and take down the invaders John Wane style? I'm not condoning them but we need to face facts. American troops were sent to THEM. The have NO defenses. We have no right to go to their country start an unfair "war" on OUR terms kill their families and friends and get angry when they come up with a primitive tactic that just happens to be working. This war is our fault. not just bush and cheney and whoever. its OUR fault because when they said "war" we all stood to the side and let them march.

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war is supposed to be fair?thats news to me.what a joke.

i guess if war was fair they would come up with uniforms,like the ones they came up with for their hostages wich they beheaded.german soldiers caught fighting out of uniform in WW11 were lined up against walls and then executed on the spot.and then broadcast around the world by people like andy rooney.

thats how we fight war,on OUR terms.i dont think any general from any army on the face of the earth wants to fight a battle on someone elses terms.

people who dont wear uniforms while in battle ARE NOT COVERED BY THE GENEVA CONVENTION.

Protocol Additional to the Geneva Conventions of 12 August 1949, and Relating to the Protection of Victims of Non-International Armed Conflicts (Protocol II)

This Protocol shall be applied without any adverse distinction founded on race, colour, sex, language, religion or belief, political or other opinion, national or social origin, wealth, birth or other status, or on any other similar criteria (hereinafter referred to as "adverse distinction") to all persons affected by an armed conflict as defined in Article 1.

All the wounded, sick and shipwrecked, whether or not they have taken part in the armed conflict, shall be respected and protected.

The civilian population and individual civilians shall enjoy general protection against the dangers arising from military operations. To give effect to this protection, the following rules shall be observed in all circumstances.

http://www.ohchr.org/english/law/index.htm

like i said,they are not covered.if they were you would hear from the Hague,not left wing intrest groups like Amnesty.

United Nations, Jan. 30 (IPS)-- The United States and allies who attack Iraq without United Nations sanction could face international legal action, even though Washington has opted out of the new International Criminal Court (ICC), experts and peace activists said Thursday.

â??For the first time since the end of the cold war, an act of deliberate aggression is being advanced under the pretext of legality by a major power,â?� said James E. Jennings, president of Conscience International.

â??The US refusal to join the International Criminal Court will not permit its leaders to escape trial before a world court and other international tribunals on war crimes charges,â?� he warned.

The taliban did not have any fixed hierarchy,therefore they missed one of the qualifacations for belligerant status.

second,taliban did not have ANY fixed emblem that would identify them as combatants.

thats that.

likewise,osama's kids dont even come close to the four conditions of belligerence status.

al kaka does not have a fixed emblem distinctive at a distance.

bin laden is also not a fixed commander(i.e. he lives in a cave in pakistan)

there is another reason that members of al kaka are noy entitled to pow status.distinctions "between bellum,war against legitimus hostis,a legitimate enemy,and guerra,war against latrunculi, or pirates...and outlaws(wich are) the common enemies of mankind,"have been made as early as roman times and have been incorporated into international laws of war.it is alleged by Sir Michael Howard that the geneva convention were drafted to address bellum/legitumus hostis conflicts ,and that the states in conflict with guerra/latrunculi could summarily execute those types of enemies.

Dam Dam read the whole document if they have no emblem they are civilians..

unlawful combatants.sorry.

i understand why people are upset,but it dosent change the fact that they just arent covered.

So how does that justify brutalising them and ridiculing their religion? What's with this "china does it, israel does it, iran does it" mentality. I forgot that those places are staples for human rights and expression. "They're not covered" so doing whatever inhumane thing that gets the fastest results is the best option? Wake up, man. How can you sit there with such a smug disregard for human life? Is it because you think the Chinese and North koreans and Israelis are too dumb to catch up to american military might? You think the day isnt coming when any one of the higher ups just push a button or declare war that puts our civilians in harms way? I'd love to see you if and when that day comes you have to defend yourself. When you're captured the only thing that should be coming out your mouth is "well we're not covered either so i guess its okay if they torture us and throw the bible into the sewers".

go ahead,throw the bible in the sewer,scary torture method that is.ouch!!
not to mention that the koran story was made up by terrorists to get the media involved.i will say it was a smart P.R. move though.

i know it drives you batty,but i am yet to see any pictures from abu ghraib or gitmo that i found troublesome even a little.naked pyramids?wow,thats terrible.scary dogs?ooooooooooooooooooooo!

maybe a "fair" "nice" war would be better?

maybe the defence department can get a contract with Nerf?

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Originally Posted by amsterdam

go ahead,throw the bible in the sewer,scary torture method that is.ouch!!
not to mention that the koran story was made up by terrorists to get the media involved.i will say it was a smart P.R. move though.

i know it drives you batty,but i am yet to see any pictures from abu ghraib or gitmo that i found troublesome even a little.naked pyramids?wow,thats terrible.scary dogs?ooooooooooooooooooooo!

maybe a "fair" "nice" war would be better?

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Well, it's understandable now as to why your arguements never make sense.

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Originally Posted by amsterdam

maybe the defence department can get a contract with Nerf?

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aw man im still laughing at this one. note: AT not WITH.

how did that not make sense?

im not an evangelical christian,if someone thinks throwing a bible in the toilet is gonna upset me, they are sorely mistaken.

i believe in god,but i am not super conservative or evangelical,they are a tiny minority of the 85% of america that believes in god.

just because you dont agree with what im saying dosent mean it dosent make sense.

what dosent make sense is your idea that war is somehow unbelievably needed to be fought "fair".i mean seriously.thats some funny shit.

i cant stop thinking about that,"fight a fair war",you should read "Ther Art of War"

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Originally Posted by amsterdam

go ahead,throw the bible in the sewer,scary torture method that is.ouch!!
not to mention that the koran story was made up by terrorists to get the media involved.i will say it was a smart P.R. move though.

i know it drives you batty,but i am yet to see any pictures from abu ghraib or gitmo that i found troublesome even a little.naked pyramids?wow,thats terrible.scary dogs?ooooooooooooooooooooo!

maybe a "fair" "nice" war would be better?

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Nic, See what I mean by a watse of time? Anyone that can make these statements and anyone that could post a photo of a child blown to bits and put a laughing face on it and caption saying ahhh poor little guy can not be reached.....The only hope Dam Dam has is therapy.

a child blown to bits??the pictures were of dead terrorists holding RPG'S and ammunition,
there were no children for gods sake,dont exaggerate the story to make it something it isnt.

therapy??what moron pays someone else to tell them their own problems,then pays more to be on some bogus pill that hurts more than it helps.the only therapist i see is my wonderful wife who sets me right.therapist??please,those are for suckers.

but hey,maybe you guys are right,from now on wars should be kind and fair.you forgot your uniform,no big deal,dress like a women in a burqa to blow up women and children,no big deal.

maybe we should use therapists in war,so we can make sure we arent hurting anyones poor feelings.maybe hand out flowers and give terrorists a reality show,survivor fallujah?where the losers are beheaded and the females are castrated?sure.

The first picture you posted was a child the 2nd was a man in a brown uniform maybe you should actually look before you post..

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Originally Posted by amsterdam

the only therapist i see is my wonderful wife who sets me right.

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She's doing a great job. No, really.

i didnt know you knew the family?i am looking at the pics i have and the guy was 22?

you should have looked at the pics a little closer before you ran off and cried about it.there is also a video of that gun battle.

If you like it so much again I ask you why don't you join the military. You have been told repeatly your police record won't matter. Are you afraid Dam Dam?

are you a recruiter?are you in the military?no you arent and i know for a fact you have no real idea what the rules are and what qualifacations you need and waht you shouldnt have.

your son is in the military and we all respect that,but to assume that no one who isnt in the army cant talk about or support bush and the war is a joke.

thats like me telling you that since you have never stepped foot anywhere in the middle east you cant talk about it.have you thought of the peace corps instead of breaking up starbucks at a WTO meeting with a shirt on your head?even though breaking up a starbucks is a good way to make people wanna listen or even care what a bunch of beautiful airheads from Berkley have to say.

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Originally Posted by amsterdam

how did that not make sense?

im not an evangelical christian,if someone thinks throwing a bible in the toilet is gonna upset me, they are sorely mistaken.

i believe in god,but i am not super conservative or evangelical,they are a tiny minority of the 85% of america that believes in god.

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So the fact that even if they had the audacity or nerve to even do something like that makes it perfectly fine to storm in because you dont believe in the bible.

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Originally Posted by BlueCat

If you like it so much again I ask you why don't you join the military. You have been told repeatly your police record won't matter. Are you afraid Dam Dam?

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at least you didnt make up more fake international crimes this time.

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Originally Posted by amsterdam

just because you dont agree with what im saying dosent mean it dosent make sense.

what dosent make sense is your idea that war is somehow unbelievably needed to be fought "fair".i mean seriously.thats some funny shit.

i cant stop thinking about that,"fight a fair war",you should read "Ther Art of War"

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We started the war though. with them. they were sitting in their houses being obediant to saddam and bombs fell. we tactically have all the superior weaponry and equipment and somehow its right to terrorise their populace. Yes! TERRORISE their populace! I say terrorise because im pretty sure their people are running around terrified for their lives.

Hey Dam Dam how old were you when you got that so called Felony charge that prevents you from joining the military?

they were given 10 years to abide by the united nations,then another year while we were at the united nations.then they had 48 hours to leave.they chose to fight.

just a statement like m sure they are running around terrified for their lives shows you arent really up on whats going on in iraqw and that you havent spoken to anyone in iraq now.
the only time i saw huge huge crowds running in iraq,it was to the polls(you know,that election that could never happen)

I'll bet he's looking up minumum age requirements for that as we speak

LMAO I bet you are right.