THC Bomb entering flowering stage; may need help.

I'm asking for people to look over my shoulder as these plants attempt to finish.

This is my third attempt with the THC Bomb and the second with F2 seeds. Both prior grows pretty much ended up the same with the plants dying prior to finishing. I've changed a multitude of things over time and this one could go off without a hitch, but if it doesn't.....I'm going to appreciate your input.

The first grow of F1 was a patio grow in and amongst the garden veggies. Those plants were attacked by leaf miners, aphids, caterpillars, spider mites, scale and, finally, fusarium. I intentionally seeded one plant but some pollen made it to a couple of others which is how I ended up with the F2 seeds.

Now before everybody heads to their catalogues of corporate branded products to recommend, please know that none of those products are available here. I'm half a world away from the States and on the same parallel as Palenque. Also, I only have two choices for containers: standard tapered and bags. And even if I could fabricate a hydroponics system, I've not found a supply store here.

The second grow was my first under artificial light. Besides the pests, I had other impetus to move indoors. But starting around weeks 3-4 of flowering in both grows, the plants really began to suffer and, eventually, die.

Now I'm using an unfinished bedroom on the top floor of my building. If one didn't need to move through the room, it would be large enough to host as many as a hundred plants. But the construction is so shoddy that I wouldn't attempt to hang lights from the ceiling.

I've sealed the windows off with black plastic and the room is as light tight as I can make it. It's not air tight and during daylight hours, I leave the door open for better cooling and air exchange. (Bugs have NOT been an issue.) From my reading, almost any light will slow the maturation and I don't want to risk that, so I'm trading off a bit of excess heat for superior dark periods.

While the vertical height of the room is over two meters, I'm limited by the adapted laundry rack I'm using which is substantial enough to hold the light(s). The rack measures about 2X5X5 feet. Because of this, my goal is to keep the plants short.

For cooling and air flow, I have what back home we would have called a portable swamp box cooler running 24/7. This box supposedly has a negative ion generator which I run, but suspect it could be just a light on the control panel and doesn't actually do anything.

During the early stages of this veg cycle, I moved the grow area from the darkest corner to adjacent to the door for better cooling, I'd hoped. From what little I've been able to find on grow journals or threads, this hybrid shuns heat. It cools dramatically here during the winter months, but the cool period is pretty short. Generally by April, it's hot as Hades, so I planted to attempt to harvest by the end of February.

Currently, the temps range from 15-35C. Mostly they want to be 25-27, to my understanding.

Yes, an A/C unit would keep the temps down but I'm unsure that the circuit would support both the A/C and the lights. Also there is my very limited budget to consider as well as the questions as to why I was air conditioning a glorified storage room.

Soil.

The best grow medium I found was a mushroom substrate, but the farm which sold it burned down a year ago and I don't think he rebuilt. Most of what is sold here as potting soil is substrate from rice cultivation. It has too much clay and silt and will not dry.

The best substitute I've found is Van Egmond, which is a peat mix with some clay and some perlite. To this I've added some more perlite plus worm castings and chicken manure plus Azomite (rock dust), bone meal, humic acid and small amounts of bat guano (approx 3-11-1), Epsom salt, potassium sulfate, and Dolomite lime to raise the pH.

I may not have added enough perlite as the containers do not dry as quickly as I'd like. Through the veg stages, watering was only given every 7-10 days. The plants did not show signs of wilting or any indication of under watering whatsoever. They got water when the containers felt light and they medium was dry to finger depth.

Even when they got water, it was either 240 or 480 cc. I do not water through to overflow as that just washes the Azomite and lime out of the medium.

Soil pH is relatively steady at 6.5.

Ferts/Nutes.

When I say water, I mean tea. My plants only get tea and always - sometimes only - with unsulfured molasses. This is aerated water via a fish tank pump and regularly includes some sort of food. This is brewed for a minimum of 24 hours and usually 48.

Here's a list of what I have available for fertilizers/nutrients:

Magnesium sulfate (Epsom salt)
Potassium sulfate
Fish emulsion
Seaweed/Kelp (liquid, local brand named Florigen)
Bat guano
Worm castings
Chicken manure
EM (Essential Microorganisms which I sometimes activate and more often just add to the tea)

I do feed them limited amounts of chemical fertilizers. During veg, they get one and a maximum of two doses of dilute 16-16-16 (1Tbsp/gal) and a single dose (1 Tbsp/gal) of 10-52-17 as they transition from veg to flower.

Perhaps because this is basically a soil-less medium, I should increase those feedings.

As this crop heads into flowering, they are scheduled to get bat guano and molasses for the next several weeks. If they seem to need it, I'll add Epsom salt.

From experience, I know this hybrid really begins to soak up the liquid through the first 4-5 weeks of flowering and requires less toward the end.

While I check the pH and ppm levels, I'm not generally adjusting it. The advice I've gotten from the forums is that the growing medium is enough of a buffer that adjusting the pH levels is unnecessary. (Feel free to disagree, but I'm not unhappy with the results to date.) Tea pH levels range from 5.3-6.5, depending. PPM levels are depending on how much variety I add to the tea and can range upwards of 1,800 gross. My tap water (well water, to my understanding) runs right at pH 7 and a ppm of around 250. The water is not chlorinated and sits in a tank in the house prior to use and then is aerated prior to feeding.

Lighting.

To go back to the first (patio) grow, I'd have to say that this hybrid does NOT depend on 12 hours of darkness to flower. They were planted in March and harvested in mid August. We don't get to 12 hours of dark here until late September.

However, they can obviously be forced into flowering by reducing the light to 12/12 indoors.

The second grow was done under two CFL's, once the plants got into containers large enough that one was insufficient. My CFL's are 250 watt each. That's effective output. Actual usage is 80W. They did pretty well through veg.

When I switched to 12/12, I went with a 400w HPS and removed the CFL's.

This grow I also used the CFL's but added two 'shop light' fixtures with two warm and too cool T-5's, one of each in each fixture. The largest bulbs I could find were 28w. Once the plants were established, I took the hoods off the CFL's and turned on the big light with a 400w MH bulb. My light fixture supports both MH and HPS. It's designed as a weatherproof fixture for lighting signs, a spot light. I've removed the front glass and the cover over the ballast both for weight saving and added cooling.

Next time, I think I'll pass on my MH bulb as it is only rated at 6,000k. The plants seem to do better under the CFL's.


Training.

I'm not always successful with FIM-ing. It's even harder when the plants are small. Each of these plants were at least topped after the second set of true leaves appeared. As soon as those stalks were long enough, I began LST. This continued until they began to pre-flower.

The canopy is relatively even but since the maximum height I can move the HPS is 5' off the ground, I'm expecting to supercrop them if they stretch too close to the light. I'm hoping to avoid popcorn buds. They will be removed if they appear.

The plants are about 12" above the soil and, again, 18" below the HPS.

That pretty much brings us up to date.

Prior to the reduced light schedule, I top dressed the containers with 1 Tbsp of Dolomite. This gets dragged in by the waterings.

There are now six plants in approximately 2.5-3 gallon hard containers. I haven't found them to require more and they did no better in 5-6 gallon containers in natural light.
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cool setup,

for nutes, you can start by keeping your banana peels & potatoes skins for Potassium, dry them out then crush them into a powder. Coffee grinds do wonders too

ease up on the watering thou, they look a bit droopy,

all in all, I think your definitely on the right track!!! they look wonderfull

What were the symptoms of the plants that died in your prior grows? When did the symptoms appear, and how long did it take for them to die? I am a bit concerned that your soil composition and watering style may have contributed. The clay may be impeding water movement and locking up necessary ions. You mixture is fairly nutrient and salt dense, and since you aren't watering through and you've got clay in the mix, my concern would be root suffocation and salt build-up. But other than looking over-watered, your plants look fine.

yeap! I would have to agree with Chromophore, Peat moss also acts like a sponge.

so what lights are you using?

I really don't like a lot of peat in the soil. Difficult to wet but then when it does, its a freaking stingy sponge as demon says. I like the effort and creativity that you're putting into making your soil, etc. I'm just concerned about proper aeration and salt build-up.

you know ive seen people who use soil-less mixes, and what they do is they feed straws thru the pots with holes poked thru them, for fresh air to flow thru the soil, so basically straws poking up from the top of the soil going all the way down. You would have to close or melt 1 end so it doesn't fill with soil when inserting. (must have holes poked thru the sides of the straw) heck you could even Rig up a low level air pump,. heh now there's an idea!

the other method I have seen are using smart pots, which are made from a breathable water proof fabric, personally if I was going to use a soil-less Mix, I would go straight to a Hydro Deep Water Culture setup. Much Much easier to regulate a consistent feeding cycle.

Growdemon,

I would never brag on the set up. I have done the best I could given the fact that there is so little available here to compliment our enterprise.

it may be the angle of the photo, but they are not drooping. I'll update the photos next week.

GD,

I like the straw idea. don't know if it'll actually do anything but it might be worth a shot.

as to the other stuff, as I said, I don't have any access to anything more than what I'm using. I'm stuck with soil less mix unless or until the mushroom farm gets rebuilt. I was thinking that it just needed more perlite. I've tended to stay away from vermiculite as it also tends to hold water.

Chromophore,

as I said in the long intro, beginning about week 3-4 of flowering, they began dropping fan leaves. I allowed them to continue with just sugar leaves but they basically went nowhere. as it progressed, even the sugar leaves would shrivel up and die. the plant would go another 3-4 weeks but they were clearly not happy about it.

the stalks would begin to brown and harden, though when cut showed no sign of fusarium.

on the bag of 'soil mix' they are pretty clear that there are enough nutrients for a month, but it is peat, after all and really has no nutrients. as to salts, I wouldn't think that would be an issue as I don't use salt based/chemical ferts much. I'm sticking with organics.

hang in there with me, please. if they do it again, perhaps we can find a solution. in the end, it could just be the heat factor which I can't control.

Hey Farang I am sorry that I cannot be much help related to solving your current grow issues. Your issues are very unique and obviously related to specific resources available to you at any given time. I will say that I am very impressed with your ability to work with what you have, that fact is very admirable. Your situation also shows the resiliency of this plant (and the farmer)! I hope some of the brilliant local forum members are able to help you with your issues, but it seems it will take some ingenuity. I will surely be following your posts, I wish you a lot of luck and I really hope everyone is able to help you through a VERY successful harvest! I am just wondering - in which country is this grow happening? I understand if you can't/don't want to say, I'm just wondering in which country this climate and lack of resources occurs.

heres my question...where the hell on planet earth might you be located....youve sparked my intrest.... attack of the double butts again...

I think it's listed on my profile. as I don't know who is tracking this, I tend to keep quiet about my location and I'd certainly never reveal my exact spot.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Farang

I think it's listed on my profile. as I don't know who is tracking this, I tend to keep quiet about my location and I'd certainly never reveal my exact spot.

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Very wise indeed, am going to hang around. Do you have a compost pile yet. Even a small one on the patio??

yea you get caught down there they will fucking end you....you got balls sir....they got the stricktest anti drug laws over there dont they?

yea tlranger hit it right on the nail.. a compost would insure you some nice fresh organic soil

I do have a compost bucket (garbage can) out on the patio. stuff from the garden goes in there and the males which show themselves. but I'm not sure using it is a great idea as I put diseased peppers and other things in there.

Right you are. If you want to use your composted refuse you should separate any diseased materials.

I have the big pile it the garden, but do have my special pile inside out building. In a garden trailer, I layer old potting soil, gathered fallen leaves, alfalfa hay chopped, (1/3,1/3,1/3) and a taste of active compost. Will use while still hot, and rough. Drains very well and I don't have to fertilizer much during the 3 month grow.

these pictures were taken moments ago after one week of flowering. I note two plants with some leaf anomalies, but in general they are pretty healthy. they got 240cc of bat/molasses tea this week and do not appear to require more for another couple of days.

two of the plants got the recommended perforated straw treatment, four straws/plant angled down towards the center bottom from about half way between the container and the stalk. it's too early to tell if this has made any significant difference.Attachment 297555Attachment 297556Attachment 297557Attachment 297558Attachment 297559Attachment 297560

I hope you guys haven't abandoned me. here are today's pictures and the symptoms are beginning. This week they got two waterings a day apart of 240cc each and are ready for more. I removed perhaps a dozen leaves already and more are dying off.Attachment 297738Attachment 297739Attachment 297740Attachment 297741

Like the lights down the sides, things are lookin good, a ways to go. They are sure filling the space.

I've been half expecting people to tell me to ditch the two cool whites and fill the array with the warm whites. nobody has offered that suggestion, so I guess I'll soldier on. as I said in the opening, this is the first time I've used the T-5's. obviously, they are supplemental to the HPS.

but I am concerned with leaf loss which is occurring about a week earlier than my notes from previous grows say. the first two photos are of the two worst affected plants, but all of them are beginning to lose all or part of a leaf set. and what's bothering me is that none of the leaf drawing or pictures of deficiencies depicts whatever is ailing these plants.

thoughts?

you can't see them with out a loupe, but the buds are frosting up. the canopy remains pretty even. temps are ranging from 20-35C and RH is generally in the 30-50% range. I'm still losing a dozen or more leaves/week and this concerns me.

here are the pics:
Attachment 297918Attachment 297919

I've been more concerned when the leaves won't start to drop off. It's looking fine to me.

thanks for the words of encouragement. to date, I've had more trouble with this hybrid than I care to, so perhaps I'm just being paranoid.

here we are at the end of week 4. according to the seed company 3-5 weeks to go though one YouTube submission has them going into week 11.

trichs are now visible to the camera lens though I really need a loupe to see them.

still losing leaves and this concerns me. the plants are staying short which is good for my situation. could this be because of the side lighting?
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this week, again, they got 240cc of tea on each of two days. temps are up and rise to 35.

way too hot! you need to get closer to 'room temperature', under 26ºC

I wish I could. there is no physical way.

Shovelhandle,

I know you're right about keeping the temp below 30. I have multiple handicaps to conquer and perhaps you can help me puzzle through them.

Obviously, it's the HPS which is the root cause of the heat issues. But also, the room is the top most in my building and is un-insulated. Unless I open the door, there is minimal air exchange and this can be problematic.

In previous grows where I used the HPS all the way through the grow, the room would always get to at least 30 even in the dead of night. As I reported in the original post, I've unbuttoned that HPS fixture, removing the front glass and the cover over the ballast. My thinking was that the unit would run cooler and, therefore, the bulb and ballast would last longer. I could button it back up but I'm not sure that would solve the heat issue.

Currently, I'm running the lights from 7 am to 7 pm. This allows me to open the door for most of the day (and that depends on what time I get up). If I left the door open 24/7, the light is visible to neighbors and that's a real negative.

I could leave the door closed 24/7 but that only drives the heat up and offers no relief or adequate air exchange. Also, I need access to that room for the water supply which is necessary for my veggie garden on the patio. Light becomes an issue as the plants want an uninterrupted dark period, right? Installing an exhaust fan would require modifying the building (my landlord would likely be upset) and wouldn't allow me to block light from entering.

Here are some possible alternatives.

First, I can switch the light schedule to noon to midnight. I'm always up before noon. But as I say, this has minimal impact on the heat in the room. I don't suppose them getting extra light until the new schedule takes hold is a severe problem. If I did that, I'd only be able to open the door for 5-6 hours/day.

I could also raise the lamp up to its maximum but that dramatically reduces the effective lumens and I don't think it would make more than a one degree difference.

I could pull the HPS from the grow entirely and re-hang my two 250W CFL's, but they are 6700K and not generally suitable for flowering; however, I think all the heat issues would disappear. I'm already using two sets of T-5 bulbs as side lighting, one cool and one warm in each fixture. I could buy one more fixture to hang directly above the canopy. My budget is tight but could probably stretch that far.

I could move all the plants out of the room and onto the patio. We're only getting about 12 hours of light/day anyway but this is increasing though probably not enough to re-veg the plants. Ambient temps range up to 28 or 29. After an unusually cold December, we're having an unusually warm January. February is generally cool but who can predict?

One of the reasons I moved to indoor growing (beside the bugs) is because there is no real dark period here. The locals are apparently so afraid of the dark that there are streetlights everywhere and spaced meters apart. One of the closest to my third floor patio is an HPS lamp, the rest are florescent. It's not that there is enough light to read up there, but it's never dark. And then there are the bugs to deal with......

Even if the electric circuit up there would support an A/C unit - and I'm not certain it would - the type of A/C units available here only recirculate the air, leading back to the stale air situation.

So you see, every option I have is a trade off.

What's your suggestion?

I had a thought or two on this so lemme butt in.

Go to the junkyard, bring your tape measure, and find a door the same size as the one on the room.
Pay particular attention to the hinge placement if you are not up to moving them.
If the existing door is a standard size, it will at least be close.
Pull the hinge pins and store the landlords door so you can replace it when you move out.
Under a bed comes to mind, but wrapped in plastic, they make excellent plant tables.

Install your "junk" door and cut holes in it one at the top, one at the bottom.
If you put an intake fan, with a filter and light baffle in the bottom hole, the hot air will be ported out the top.
That will also allow you to use a "cool tube" for the HPS and port it out the top hole with some "dryer duct".

If none of that works for you, you can try relocating the ballast to outside the room.
Just extend the wires that go to the lamp.
Ballasts run pretty hot and that should help a little.


I hear you about the damn street lights
If you have a light meter, go out on the patio and actually measure the illumination.
Anything under 1 Lux will not affect cannabis.

Aloha,
Weezard

thanks for weighing in, Weezard.

I had hoped you would.

strangely, I don't think there are junk yards as such here either, but it's a reasonable thought. but I'm not sure about light baffles and I don't have a light meter, per se.

what I can say is the first (F1) crop of this hybrid was grown on the patio but I convinced myself that the lack of dark was one of the issues. that crop never got to full ripeness and I began thinking there was a death gene spiced into this hybrid and that was reinforced by the second attempt which also died before it finished.

the original crop was mercilessly attached by bugs and ended up dying from fusarium. ( I came to realize that later ) I'm unsure what caused the second crop to fail but it could have been heat.

in any case you're NOT recommending I switch to all T-5 or removing the HPS in favor of the 6700K CFL's, right?

that would have been a quick fix.

damn the luck.

I have found growing pot to always be a little more expensive than I want, but it always beats paying street prices. An old wise one told me that. You have a very nice grow spot developed already, a new door installed with circulation fans top and bottom, and exhaust vent for hps cooling tube seems like money well spent. Moving the ballast out is a big plus.
Light baffles are pretty straight forward, light travels in straight lines. Air can turn a corner.
Switching light timing in the middle of a grow does not work for me. Might as well have a timer f#ck up. I do run at night 9-9 because of heat and to balance the usage load. Many power companies have an additional charges for high demand. Watering your patio at night might work well.
Last on the list, switching to a dimmer light at the end of a grow works for me, think in simulates the fall season.

??? If neighbors might see the light, might they also see pot growing on the patio?

"in any case you're NOT recommending I switch to all T-5 or removing the HPS in favor of the 6700K CFL's, right?

that would have been a quick fix.

damn the luck."

Um, no, but I wouldn't rule it out.

If I was recommending lights for low heat, it would be LEDs.
No contest!

Even a brand new door is cheaper than LEDs. :)

And like the Ranger said, light baffles are easy.

Food for thought.

Aloha,
Weeze

thanks for your input, tlranger.

when I grow on the patio, it is, or can be, visible to neighbors on either side. if they grow too tall, they are visible to anyone on the street. I don't let them do that. the neighbor to my south has seen previous attempts and says nothing, but my landlady is on my north. I put up opaque plastic to help keep her nosiness down to a minimum.

after this crop is finished, I plan on having some local bag seed sativas out there this year, again, but I plan on a horizontal grow. they take way too long under the lights, so outside is superior for them.

the present visible light is reflected but the glow is palpable and could pique unwelcomed curiosity, so I try to avoid it by closing the door before sunset.

the door into that room is in need of replacement, so Weezard's idea is workable. I have no idea how much a new door will cost, but I suspect it'll have to be a new door as I'm very doubtful I can find a used one. the current door is hollow core which could make fan installations more difficult, so maybe it'll take two doors. and since my only transportation is a small motorcycle...............they'll deliver, I'm sure.

as to the lowering of light, my last trip to the store revealed some 250W HPS but there were no other specs on the package and I didn't buy. luckily, I guess, my fixture accepts anything from 250-400 and both MH and HPS. that could be worth a shot, though I'm dubious.

in any case, the concensus seems to NOT be toward more T-5's or my CFL's. shame, that.

my current electric bill almost matches my rent, another reason I'm avoiding installing an A/C unit up there - which is well outside my budget anyway. so far as I know, there are no discounts for running the lights at night. too complicated for the locals and their 19th century electric meters and grid.

thanks, again, for the input!

the available LED lights here are Chinese. hell, most of what's available here is Chinese.

from what I've read on line, the Chinese LED's are notoriously unreliable plus expensive. I wasn't going there.

no doubt a new door would be far cheaper than LED's. in talking with the wife tonight, we can shop for a new door but not install it until we decide to move and this is likely to be my last home. I'm not getting any younger.

we also discussed the possibility of installing an A/C unit up there; the question then is, do you still think I need to destroy, I mean adapt, the door with inlet and outlet fans? that would mean the A/C would never shut off and drive the electric bill through the roof.

ultimately, that may be the only real answer but the costs put me off.

On ac units, have seen some very small portable units. Have ducting s that reminds me of large dryer tubing. Don't know how expensive to run, this go - till you decided, especially if you have some t-5s. I would probably start there. To finish the run.

those window installations are no longer available, it seems. they are not terribly expensive to operate, as I recall, but since I can't find one.............

the newer units are possibly even cheaper to run, but there would be no air exchange.

I'm encouraged that you think switching to T-5's could be a way to go. I'm not getting a lot of support on that, though.

in the next couple of days, I'll post pictures of the HPS fixture I'm using. I don't think it's adaptable to running a 'cool tube'. it's an outdoor spot light.

adding a top T-5 light (and killing the HPS) would cool the room off incredibly, but I'll load those up with warm light bulbs, I think.

portable A/C units make no sense to me, besides being more expensive than installed units. they've got to dissapate heat back into the same room they are trying to cool. that seems self-defeating.

Sunday is a day with the wife (tomorrow) but Monday, after taking and posting pictures, I'll see if I can bastardize my back up fixture and move that ballast to outside the room. I've put off that option as long lengths of wire decrease amperage to the unit. to relocate the ballast, it will require it to be moved some 6-10 meters and I'm not sure what the effect will be. I'm also skeptical if it will really make any difference to the temps in the room.

no matter what, I appreciate your attention to my issues.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Farang

portable A/C units make no sense to me, besides being more expensive than installed units. they've got to dissapate heat back into the same room they are trying to cool. that seems self-defeating.

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Ones I had seen, one of the dryer style flexable tubes ran to an exterior window to vent hot air out side.

ah. well that makes sense. the ones I've seen here don't talk about that feature.

here is my 'extra' lamp. I've decided I can simply use this unit as the external ballast rather than cannibalize it. so now I'm off to the wire store.Attachment 298216Attachment 298217