A world without money

Recently, my beliefs have grown to new heights. What I perceive to be true absolutely shatters the belief system of most people. One of the thousand interconnected ideas is one that a "monetary based society" is inherently disruptive to natural human behavior.

We all live in a monetary based society. It's a society based on money. Everyone has heard the phrase "money is the root of all evil", yet we all are slaves to getting and spending money.

On Earth, forget just the U.S. alone, there is more debt than there is money. Think about this concept for a minute. How is this even possible? It's possible because of the brilliant invention of interest, but that's not what I want to focus on. Instead, realize that if everyone paid back their debts including governments, there would be no money left in circulation. This is purely a hypothetical because as I said earlier everyone's debts can't be payed back. This is because collectively, we owe more than we have. One thing is certain, our financial systems operate much like a Ponzi scheme, and sooner or later, they crumble. Why, then, would we do this to ourselves? A monetary based economy is a form of modern slavery.

Money turns humans, who are naturally social creatures, to hate each other.

Money keeps us wasteful, and behind the technological curve. This is because sustainability is not profitable.

There are trillions of digital dollars being transferred all the time, used for nothing other than a number on a screen, yet we have worldwide poverty and hunger.

Imagine how much of crime would disappear if there were no monetary incentive. I would postulate that only crimes of passion would remain. These are the most infrequent of all crimes.

A world without money, although hard for some to imagine, would not only bring a lifestyle that I prefer, but is something that mankind desperately needs.

Thanks!

i have also heard of this and it is crazy how that works and we dont evan realize it
but i think are population numbers are just to large to get rid of the monetary system without causing violence
and to say crime would vanish that is possible because then there will be no structure to create guidelines
so basically we would turn into a society similar to the omish without the strict guidelines
i just think its impossible to stop the sorce of all evil because without evil then how can there be any good
look at it this way humans are animals but we created are own eco system
so we basically we create are own form of nature and if you observe nature every thing is balanced because some species will naturally go extinct while others will evolve to componsate
so what i am saying is without lions you can have no gazels

well you can blame Julius Caesar for that. he didnt develop the concept of money but he did standardize it and made it global...global for back then. it was all barter before coined money came around. that was awesome if you were the guy trading a chicken for a bushel of wheat not such a good deal for the dude bustin his ass to raise the wheat.

Julius Caesar did change the way 'democracies' work. But a more direct cause of our system can be attributed to John Locke, who was the first in the U.S. to propose 'private property'.


I love the 'with the grain' comments. I expected a backlash--this is great.

To growhand420: You're making one mistake in imagining this system in that you are taking mindsets of today, and hypothesizing how they would react in the society of tomorrow.

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Originally Posted by growhand420

but i think are population numbers are just to large to get rid of the monetary system without causing violence

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You are referring to 'the transition'. This goes above my head. My brain aches when I try to imagine how a resource based economy could come about. There might be violence. Then again, I believe that the U.S. government facilitated the assassination of JFK to go to war, the bombing at Pearl Harbor to go war, and the WTC attacks on 9/11 -> to go to war. Why go to war? Power and resources (oil). The U.S. has been acting like the mob to OPEC (oil) countries since the 50's. My point is, if the government thinks killing its own citizens to go to war for oil (money) is worth it, then why can't I believe that bloodshed in the name of a better world is worth it?

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Originally Posted by growhand420

and to say crime would vanish that is possible because then there will be no structure to create

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did you mean to say impossible? I didn't say crime would vanish. I said that all monetarily incentivized crime would vanish. And I'm glad you drew the parallel the Amish--they don't have police, so how do they keep from murdering each other? They are a self policing entity, that is, each person in the community influences the 'bad apple', making it very unattractive to behave badly. Crime won't ever disappear, because we are human, and crazy.

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Originally Posted by growhand420

i just think its impossible to stop the sorce of all evil because without evil then how can there be any good
look at it this way humans are animals but we created are own eco system
so we basically we create are own form of nature and if you observe nature every thing is balanced because some species will naturally go extinct while others will evolve to componsate
so what i am saying is without lions you can have no gazels

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So we are gazels?

We are also lions.

The biggest threat to our future survival is ourselves. Global economic meltdown, nuclear war, climate change. Maybe those who can't let go of money will die off? I'll tell you this: if I was J Rockefeller and I had 630 billion dollars (no joke), and one day our economy collapsed and my digital dollars were useless, I would not know wtf to do.

Science & Technology. This is what will drive us out of the dark and into the light. It's the only thing our race has developed, that we can be proud of, that we can show for. It's called emergence. Emergence is the idea that from the beginning of our species, there has been a constant, ascending understanding. One element of emergence, which is the only one that we can draw anything valuable from, is Science & Technology. The laws of emergence state that just as 100 years ago, when an Apple Iphone couldn't even be fathomed, 100 years from now, we will have technology that today we cannot imagine.

Sure glad I had a cup of coffee, before reading this.

I personally see: Greed, Evil and competitive spirits, emerging as a new measure with a leader. Salt, gold, silver, grain...something will become the new monetary system, as it has, in the past. :rasta: pr

Maybe. But we don't need a new monetary system. We don't need a monetary based society. It is bad and they make us act against natural tendancies, it creates evil tendancies within us......

What we need is what's called a "resource based economy". In this setting, our lives are governed by survival, sustainability, abundance, and longevity. Wouldn't it be nice to live for these things? Or should we continue to live for PROFIT.

Money makes trading efficient and enriches our lives by saving time and money. Please don't blame the money for the incompetence and corruption of the politicians who are manipulating it. You really would not want to live in a world without money.

money is not the problem.. its a monetary based society where everything revolves around the moving of numbers on a screen and profiting of interest. Money does make trading efficient but when the society becomes entirely based on attaining money rather than producing resources abundantly.. then there is a problem.

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Originally Posted by HipsterDoofus

Money makes trading efficient and enriches our lives by saving time and money. Please don't blame the money for the incompetence and corruption of the politicians who are manipulating it. You really would not want to live in a world without money.

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This is more along the lines of what I expected.

Did you say "Money makes trading efficient and enriches our lives by saving ... money." Please tell me how this makes sense.

I don't blame money. But do not be fooled, corrupt leaders have been around a long time, and they are the ones who were constantly looking for ways to control the masses. Money did benefit society at first. But the nature of money is that it becomes the only thing worth attaining, and this is clearly not the way humans should live.
You're bold hipster to tell me what I would not want to do. I desperately want to live in a world without money. You happen to be one of those people who just can't wrap their head around the idea. If you think politicians manipulate money, you're right, but I don't think you get it. The only politicians that manipulate money, are captains of industry who BECOME politicians in order to pass legislation to ultimately give them monetary gains. Your average Joe Senator, who isn't corrupt, basically has no say in politics whatsoever. In order for him to pass legislation his constituents would be satisfied with, he needs to do 'favors' for the strongarming politicians WITH MONEY.

This is not necessarily corrupt, in my opinion, because it's human nature. Humans are intensly affected by incentive, the problem is not the humans, it's the INCENTIVE.

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Originally Posted by MDFinest

money is not the problem.. its a monetary based society where everything revolves around the moving of numbers on a screen and profiting of interest. Money does make trading efficient but when the society becomes entirely based on attaining money rather than producing resources abundantly.. then there is a problem.

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I disagree. Money IS the problem. You can't have a world with money, but without profiteering. The two come hand in hand. As I stated above, human incentive is a powerful thing, and I would see us incentivized toward something for the greater good of our species instead of for profit. It is selfish and against our inherent social nature.

Abundance is something that you will never see in a monetary based economy. It's not profitable. Economics 101 teaches you that when resources are SCARCE, the demand goes up, and therefore they become more expensive. I've heard of a diamond mine that burns diamonds into carbon products because to flood the market with all the diamonds they find would drive the price down, and would therefore be bad for business.

Abundance is not profitable. Sustainability is not profitable. Happiness is not profitable.

It seems to me that PROFIT, is the problem.

http://www.saltworks.us/salt_info/si_HistoryOfSalt.asp:History Of Salt

As far back as 6050 BC, salt has been an important and integral part of the world’s history, as it has been interwoven into the daily lives of countless historic civilizations. Used as a part of Egyptian religious offerings and valuable trade between the Phoenicians and their Mediterranean empire, salt and history have been inextricably intertwined for millennia, with great importance placed on salt by many different races and cultures of people. Even today, the history of salt touches our daily lives. The word “salary” was derived from the word “salt.” Salt was highly valued and its production was legally restricted in ancient times, so it was historically used as a method of trade and currency. The word “salad” also originated from “salt,” and began with the early Romans salting their leafy greens and vegetables. Undeniably, the history of salt is both broad ranging and unique, leaving its indelible mark in cultures across the globe.

I don't mean to be dull, but what is your point?

As far back as time, something is used to measure value. Even salt.

Money is not the problem, EVIL is!;) pr

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Originally Posted by painretreat

As far back as time, something is used to measure value. Even salt.

Money is not the problem, EVIL is!;) pr

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I disagree.

Money IS the problem. Money is what CREATES most of the evil we see in the world today.

When you can't spend time with your kids, because you have to work, does that make you evil?
When you can't send them to college, because its too expensive, does that make you evil?
Of course you're not evil, you just are incentivized to trade time with your kids for money...because we need money for everything.
When your kids ask you why you can't stay home to spend time with them, do you tell them, "I have to make money." or do you tell them "I'm evil."?

You tell them you have to make money. It stands between you and your loved ones. From about 45000 years ago to about 3000 years ago, money did not stand between people and their loved ones. Sure, survival did, but then again, they didn't have the technology that we have.

I'm not saying that the origination of money is the problem. My point is that it is OUTDATED. We have insane technology today that we can't use, because its not profitable.

Look at green energy...this is obviously the correct way for mankind to go, yet we have been pussyfooting around it for over 10 years! It's not because anyone is evil, its because too many people would lose too much money if we no longer relied on oil.

MONEY is the problem. Not that it always has been, but it always will be.

When man lived in a cave, they often had to go hunt for several days in a row, and often!

From the beginning of time, people trade their personal time for something of value. Even if only exchanging pride!

"He who has the most toys....." :rasta: pr

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Originally Posted by painretreat

When man lived in a cave, they often had to go hunt for several days in a row, and often!

From the beginning of time, people trade their personal time for something of value. Even if only exchanging pride!

"He who has the most toys....." :rasta: pr

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Sorry, don't mean to be dull again...what's your point here?

That mankind trades?

Is this counter to my argument that a monetary based society is outdated, and causes global strife?


Cavemen are examples that are going to suit my argument much better than yours.

For instance, cavepeople did not go out and mass hunt animals and store them in the cave, to trade them off for profit.
In early times, people were much less wasteful than they are today. They killed what they needed to survive, nothing more.

Today, we are wasteful. Why? Profit.

We build and sell things that are specifically made not to last. That way, when they break, people have to buy more/another.

We have the technology to make sustainable, environmentally safe products. We don't make them though, because not enough people can make enough money off of such things.

Everything we do is for profit, and it's rediculous. We are slaves to getting money.



He who has the most toys... what?

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Originally Posted by Txbizpro

Sorry, don't mean to be dull again...what's your point here?

That mankind trades?

Is this counter to my argument that a monetary based society is outdated, and causes global strife?


Cavemen are examples that are going to suit my argument much better than yours.

For instance, cavepeople did not go out and mass hunt animals and store them in the cave, to trade them off for profit.
In early times, people were much less wasteful than they are today. They killed what they needed to survive, nothing more.

Today, we are wasteful. Why? Profit.

We build and sell things that are specifically made not to last. That way, when they break, people have to buy more/another.

We have the technology to make sustainable, environmentally safe products. We don't make them though, because not enough people can make enough money off of such things.

Everything we do is for profit, and it's rediculous. We are slaves to getting money.



He who has the most toys... what?

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good point but money really isnt a problem
because sh#$ happens and everything will be fine because nothing matters
ther is no such thing as evil or good
because evrything is just what you make (or how you judge it)
if we all die tomarrow what would we really have to show for it
we live are whole lifes working or surviving
and then we die
so what then would you care what happens after you die!
so money isnt a problem because there isnt a problem at all its just a way to keep us busy
till the day we die....

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Originally Posted by growhand420

good point but money really isnt a problem
because sh#$ happens and everything will be fine because nothing matters
ther is no such thing as evil or good
because evrything is just what you make (or how you judge it)
if we all die tomarrow what would we really have to show for it
we live are whole lifes working or surviving
and then we die
so what then would you care what happens after you die!
so money isnt a problem because there isnt a problem at all its just a way to keep us busy
till the day we die....

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This honestly is just sad.
You have evolved, and adapted to deal with the shitty parts of this world.
You're attitude towards life sounds medicated.

Money is the problem.
Plenty of things matter.
Good and evil should be looked at as relative right and wrong.
You're right, everything is what you make it, I just want to make something different than what you do.
A whole life of work should be fulfilling, it shouldn't separate you from your humanity.
Money is a problem in fact because its just a way to keep us busy. That clause of yours was a very accurate generalization.

We have the technology today to automate so many different industries and replace labor with efficent systems that are sustainable and better for our environment. The sad thing is, in a monetary based society, automation of industries is in direct conflict with the livelihood of citizens. The more automation, the less jobs there are. Can't you see here by this example that money is in direct conflict with our human emergence of technology? Should we stop finding new technology? Or should we create a new societal system?

People might not be able to imagine a world without money, a resource based economy in which everything you needed was provided for you, a society that is led by scientists, physicists, technologists, inventors, and teachers of all things, but I'd imagine that people don't find your view of the world very attractive either.

It is easier to understand once you understand monetary theory and how it applies.

Money = debt and vice-versa. Without debt, there would be no money. Money, or fiat, is just the representation of debt. CREDIT is how we screw ourselves.

The only way to balance it out is to infuse credit into the open market (continuously to keep the system from catching up with itself) because without it 99% of us would not have cars, houses, jobs, or things that the states do to run from point of spending to the income they receive from taxes. In fact, that is how money gets made every day, the promise on that note that says you will pay back the bank and that lets them conjure up the money out of nowhere although fractional (and reverse) ratio requirements are kept to make sure the system stays in check.

Sure, individual debt is bad and it sucks but if people stopped taking loans and we stopped using money your worth would be only what you had.

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Originally Posted by Txbizpro

there is more debt than there is money. Think about this concept for a minute.

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Well, no. There is an equal amount of debt to money (fiat) because one is a representation to the other. With no debt, there can be no money.

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Originally Posted by Txbizpro

How is this even possible? It's possible because of the brilliant invention of interest

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It's possible because of the infusion of credit into that system before it catches up with itself and bankrupts the world. As for interest, it used to be such a horrid crime the idea of making money off of money. It was called usury, and could be punishable by death. However... as time moved forward it became more acceptable because with the lending of money involves the inherent risk of loss.

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Originally Posted by Txbizpro

Instead, realize that if everyone paid back their debts including governments, there would be no money left in circulation.

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Right, because there would be no money left because debt is the literal representation of debt. no debt = no money.

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Originally Posted by Txbizpro

This is purely a hypothetical because as I said earlier everyone's debts can't be payed back. This is because collectively, we owe more than we have.

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From a large scale? The problem is that for long term items such as mortgages or gov debt where the interest ultimately far exceeds the Principal, a lot of extra money needs to be created in order to pay that Interest. In order to maintain a functioning economy and society, that rate of foreclosure needs to be low which also prevents other issues such as credit freezes and run on banks. In order for this to happen, even more debt (money) needs to be created which will satisfy todays demands for fiat money and to cover the previous debt. I'm sure you can see the problem... this just leads to more and bigger debts with more interest ultimately needing to be paid which leaves the system in an ever escalating spiral of mounting indebtedness. Only the time lag between money creation and its repayment keeps the shortage from catching up with itself.

Speaking on the individual level? No, not everyone's debt can be repaid. You cannot repay a pool of principal and interest from an overall supply containing just principal.


A better question to ask the ones at the top:

1 - Why are our governments choosing to borrow this money, at interest, from private banking establishments when it could just create all the interest free money it needs for itself? (For the record, fiat (government issued money) only makes up about 5% of total overall money supply)

2 - Why should we create this money as debt at all? How come we cannot create money that will circulate permanently and does not require being perpetually RE-borrowed at interest in order for the money to exist in the first place? It should be reminded that a money system cannot possibly survive from perpetually accelerating growth as the basis to build and sustain an economy. Should be clear that this perpetual acceleration of growth and sustainability go together like oil and water.

What we should ask ourselves:

What about our current monetary system makes us, and the economy, so subject and needed on perpetual growth? What HAS to change in order to allow the reasonable creation of a self sustainable economy?

Seems to me that money, ultimately, is originally a marker of work done and a common denominator of exchange. It is far easier and more efficient to trade standardized coinage for a farmer's bacon than to (1) figure out that the farmer wants/needs some nails to complete a new pig pen, then (2) find someone who has some excess nails, then (3) figure out what THEY need in exchange for the nails.

Historically, problems with money arise when (1) people no longer deal directly with sources of product, but deal with service-providers/middlemen (wholesalers, distributors, retailers, etc.) who need to profit from their transactions (thus driving up product cost) to remain in business; and (2) banks that not only charge interest on the money they loan (a legitimate function) but also INFLATE the money supply by multiple loans which exceed their supply of money (causing inflation).

In addition, the whole concept of money will shortly, possibly within a decade or two, become largely impossible. Reasons: automation, 3D printing, robotics, all of which will result in MASSIVE (90%+) unemployment, but essentially "free" or dirt cheap goods in many areas.

When automated machinery becomes self-repairing, or gets made and repaired by OTHER machinery, the labor cost essentially becomes zero.

When raw materials and food are mined/farmed by robots made by robots made by robots, the materials cost essentially becomes zero.

When products, from clothing to cars to foods, are created by 3D printers running on "boutique" software (think the apps currently being produced for smart phones) the middlemen start to disappear.

The answer? I really don't know. Perhaps something like the "Social Credit" scheme discussed in Wikipedia. Social credit - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Just my ponderings. YMMV