Judge Okays Abortion For Girl, 13

Judge Okays Abortion For Girl, 13
St. Petersburg Times ^ | 5/3/05 | Associated Press


WEST PALM BEACH - A 13-year-old at the center of an abortion fight with the state was given permission Monday to terminate her pregnancy, but it was unclear whether she immediately underwent the procedure.

Attorneys for the girl, known only as L.G. in court papers, said the abortion was scheduled for later Monday. However, the state Department of Children and Families appealed the decision, according to Maxine Williams, one of the teen's attorneys.

"Since this is still in litigation, I can't speak to what's going on in court," DCF spokeswoman Marilyn Munoz said.

Palm Beach Juvenile Judge Ronald Alvarez issued an order last week temporarily stopping the teen, who lives in a state shelter, from having the abortion. DCF argued she was too young and immature to decide for herself and state law prohibited the agency from consenting to an abortion.

Alvarez held up the abortion until a psychological evaluation was completed, but he ruled Monday that the teen would not be physically or emotionally harmed by the abortion.

"Legally speaking, it's not a difficult decision to make," Alvarez was quoted as saying by the South Florida Sun-Sentinel. "Morally speaking, it's a very difficult decision for this court to make. ... But I'm not here to make the moral decision. I'm here to make the legal decisions."

"He ruled that she is competent, that she has made a decision and that she has a right to act on that decision," said Howard Simon, executive director of the Florida branch of the American Civil Liberties Union, which helped represent the girl. The judge also declared "her right to act on that decision is also in her best interest," Simon said.

The teen, who was more than 14 weeks pregnant, has been in DCF care for at least four years.

Her attorneys say Florida law protects a minor's right to choose an abortion.

Florida's high court cited state privacy rights in 1989 when it tossed out a law that would have required parental consent for a minor's abortion.

Howdy Y'all,

This upset me real bad:" Alvarez held up the abortion until a psychological evaluation was completed, but he ruled Monday that the teen would not be physically or emotionally harmed by the abortion. "

This judge,is wrong on both accounts,the girl will be mentally and physically harmed by the abortion. There's strong evidence,that abortions lead to increased risk of cervical cancer and other health problems,as for the mental,when she realizes that she murdered her own child,who's the only innocent victim in this mess,she could be afflicted with a long lasting depressive disorder.

Why must the innocent baby,be punished for the sins of it's mother and father,and the sins of the DCF ? The 'father',should be identified and charged with statutory rape,someone should be punished at DCF,the 'mother',should be held accountable..but by no means,should an innocent life be murdered,because of the failures of others.

Once again,the left-wing,liberal culture of death..wins yet again..pretty daggum sad..to murder a child for the sins and crimes of others.

Have a good one...

If you're so against abortions, I suggest that you never be involved in one. But you have absolutely zero right to say what anyone else does.

Why is it that Republicans, who always talk about the big, bad government intruding into people's lives, always seem to have something to say about...other people's lives?

And don't say it's about protecting a life. Because that's a lie. If protecting lives was sooo important to Republicans, who have controlled every branch of the U.S. government for going on five years, would there be genocide and famine in Africa? Would we support terrorists, excuse me, "freedom fighters," in South America? Would we systematically destroy the environment almost guaranteeing that future generations aren't going to live that long? Come on. The ball's been in your court for a while now and you guys are in complete control. No one is stopping you.

And don't say we can't control what happens in other countries either because I remember not too long ago when we thumbed our noses at the rest of the world and invaded Iraq because they had weapons of mass...umm, I mean, they were a threat to...umm, uhh, Saddam was bad to his own people.

It's religious zealotry, plain and simple. Republicans cannot stand the fact that not everyone subscribes to a Judeo-Christian ideology, so they come up with catchy phrases like "culture of life" to try and pit Americans against each other. Because after all, who can be against life? It's us bleeding-heart, tree-hugging, baby-killing liberals, right?

Last time I checked, we're the ones who want to make sure that kids get proper sex education so hopefully they won't be put in a bad situation like in the story you posted. We're the ones who want to make sure condoms are available to cut down on unwanted pregnancies (ie, abortions) and rates of STD transmission (some of those can kill ya). Christ, we're the ones who want to help poor people (the ones who disproportionally have most of the unwanted pregnancies in America) get out of poverty so this stuff stops happening. But no; God doesn't want that, huh?

Beyond that, we're the ones against the death-damn-penalty (while you guys want to execute retarded people, literally, and kids) and people being able to buy assault rifles. I mean, honestly. Who hunts with an uzi or an M-16? Hell, who hunts with a handgun? The only time anyone ever hears of those weapons, it's when somebody gets KILLED.

Culture of life my ass.

And by the way, no one is pro-abortion as the GOP likes to spout off over and over again. It's just that some of us are pro-CHOICE.

What does this have to do with Liberals? Last time I checked, it was the Republicans that were in power.

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Originally Posted by Torog

as for the mental,when she realizes that she murdered her own child,who's the only innocent victim in this mess,she could be afflicted with a long lasting depressive disorder.

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A 13 year old girl that managed to get pregnant and doesn't want the hassle? I doubt she'll give the slightest shit. Sad but true.

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Originally Posted by bhallg2k

If you're so against abortions, I suggest that you never be involved in one. But you have absolutely zero right to say what anyone else does.

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You could have just said that and sounded alot cooler. -laughs-

Anyway, abortions suck, and they're sad. Really really fucking sad. But they aren't my forte' since I don't have a vagina and all. And unless I impregnate a female who wants an abortion, I'll try my hardest to never tell someone what to do when it comes to an abortion.

Extreme Right Wing Republicans will never understand that this Country is supposed to be Diverse and different people have different values and ideas. Extreme Chrisitans will never get off their high horse and they will never stop thinking that everyone should live like they do, think like they do and if you dont run the life their having your contributing to the destruction of America, (Which BTW, Bush is doin a fine job) And if you don't think like they do you're somehow evil.

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Originally Posted by Button Basher

What does this have to do with Liberals? Last time I checked, it was the Republicans that were in power.

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According to Torog, there is a Secret Society of Evil Democrats that want to rule the world.

"Why must the innocent baby,be punished for the sins of it's mother and father,and the sins of the DCF ? The 'father',should be identified and charged with statutory rape,someone should be punished at DCF,the 'mother',should be held accountable..but by no means,should an innocent life be murdered,because of the failures of others"

How do you know she wasnt raped, Torog?!?

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Originally Posted by bhallg2k

If you're so against abortions, I suggest that you never be involved in one. But you have absolutely zero right to say what anyone else does.

Why is it that Republicans, who always talk about the big, bad government intruding into people's lives, always seem to have something to say about...other people's lives?

And don't say it's about protecting a life. Because that's a lie. If protecting lives was sooo important to Republicans, who have controlled every branch of the U.S. government for going on five years, would there be genocide and famine in Africa? Would we support terrorists, excuse me, "freedom fighters," in South America? Would we systematically destroy the environment almost guaranteeing that future generations aren't going to live that long? Come on. The ball's been in your court for a while now and you guys are in complete control. No one is stopping you.

And don't say we can't control what happens in other countries either because I remember not too long ago when we thumbed our noses at the rest of the world and invaded Iraq because they had weapons of mass...umm, I mean, they were a threat to...umm, uhh, Saddam was bad to his own people.

It's religious zealotry, plain and simple. Republicans cannot stand the fact that not everyone subscribes to a Judeo-Christian ideology, so they come up with catchy phrases like "culture of life" to try and pit Americans against each other. Because after all, who can be against life? It's us bleeding-heart, tree-hugging, baby-killing liberals, right?

Last time I checked, we're the ones who want to make sure that kids get proper sex education so hopefully they won't be put in a bad situation like in the story you posted. We're the ones who want to make sure condoms are available to cut down on unwanted pregnancies (ie, abortions) and rates of STD transmission (some of those can kill ya). Christ, we're the ones who want to help poor people (the ones who disproportionally have most of the unwanted pregnancies in America) get out of poverty so this stuff stops happening. But no; God doesn't want that, huh?

Beyond that, we're the ones against the death-damn-penalty (while you guys want to execute retarded people, literally, and kids) and people being able to buy assault rifles. I mean, honestly. Who hunts with an uzi or an M-16? Hell, who hunts with a handgun? The only time anyone ever hears of those weapons, it's when somebody gets KILLED.

Culture of life my ass.

And by the way, no one is pro-abortion as the GOP likes to spout off over and over again. It's just that some of us are pro-CHOICE.

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Well-fucking-said! You're my new hero, lol :D

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Originally Posted by XTC

According to Torog, there is a Secret Society of Evil Democrats that want to rule the world.

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that person was john kerry and john edwards and thankfully they were bitch slapped nov.2. they werent evil,just rich,white trash. :D

as for abortion,pro-choice over here.

it is sad that poor folks use it as birth control.
:mad:

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Originally Posted by amsterdam

it is sad that poor folks use it as birth control.
:mad:

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I agree... it's fucking disgusting... I once heard a girl say "I don't use protection". When asked why not she replied "Who needs to when you can get abortions so easily?". That kind of thinking is fucking horrible, but of course, just because SOME people think like that (and they're probably the majority) it doesn't mean that abortion should be banned and the choice of having an abortion taken away from people who actually need it...

It disgusts me that Torog shows no understanding towards the women (some of them children) who are raped or are made pregnant through no fault of their own and who are unable to care for a child.. these people should, in my book, be allowed abortions... failure to provide these people with the facilities for a proper abortion could be a danger to BOTH lives, as many young pregnant women, when refused an abortion, resort to getting a 'blackmarket' abortion, or even trying to perform the abortion themselves.. this, we can all agree, is unnacceptable.. ergo, these people should be given the option of having a safe abortion in a professional environment. I value life just as much as the next guy, but I can see how abortions can often be necessary.

Torog, you and I are never going to have an abortion. We will never know how it feels to have an unwanted baby growing inside of us.. We will never know how it feels to be raped and then find out you are carrying the child of the person who raped you... So how can we decide whether these people should be allowed abortions or not?

My last point was going to somehow compare the banning of abortions to the criminalisation of Cannabis.. but i'm stoned and I forgot what it was. Peace. :)

my wife were going to have a child a year ago(she miscarried),anyway after we took the test at home we decided to go to planned parenthood to double check and this couple came in wanting to have an abortion that day!!they said they couldnt do it that fast she wanted to know where they could go to do it that day.not a care in the world.sad.

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I once heard a girl say "I don't use protection". When asked why not she replied "Who needs to when you can get abortions so easily?

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Not only is that fucking horrible, its also unbelievably stupid. Abortions are alot more trouble and are more expensive than using protection.

i think amsterdam and torog smoke a little too much crack! Republicans own this country, they make up 2/3 of congress, and now they are taking over the courts, but its still a "democrat conspiracy", am i missing something here?

conspiracy?i dont think that at all.i just think the leaders of the dems are idiots.why dont they have any power?idiots.

its gonna be awhile before they actually have a message besides "just say no to everything" and "hey look!we arent bush"

Howdy bhallg2k,

You state: " If you're so against abortions, I suggest that you never be involved in one. But you have absolutely zero right to say what anyone else does. "

I will never be involved in an abortion,because I realize that I'm accountable for all my choices and decisions,and I would never put myself or a woman,in that position.

" Why is it that Republicans, who always talk about the big, bad government intruding into people's lives, always seem to have something to say about...other people's lives? "

Because we know,that a stable and healthy society,is built upon decent and moral behaviour..not sexual promiscuity,amoral relativism and secular humanism.

" And don't say it's about protecting a life. Because that's a lie. If protecting lives was sooo important to Republicans, who have controlled every branch of the U.S. government for going on five years, would there be genocide and famine in Africa? Would we support terrorists, excuse me, "freedom fighters," in South America? Would we systematically destroy the environment almost guaranteeing that future generations aren't going to live that long? Come on. The ball's been in your court for a while now and you guys are in complete control. No one is stopping you. "

I believe,that Life begins at conception,it is about protecting innocent lives..I realize,that you want the US to be blamed for everything,but we ain't the only players,and we don't have complete control,or Roe vs Wade,would have been repealed already.

" And don't say we can't control what happens in other countries either because I remember not too long ago when we thumbed our noses at the rest of the world and invaded Iraq because they had weapons of mass...umm, I mean, they were a threat to...umm, uhh, Saddam was bad to his own people. "
I will say it..we can't control what happens in other countries..but we can dang sure try !

" It's religious zealotry, plain and simple. Republicans cannot stand the fact that not everyone subscribes to a Judeo-Christian ideology, so they come up with catchy phrases like "culture of life" to try and pit Americans against each other. Because after all, who can be against life? It's us bleeding-heart, tree-hugging, baby-killing liberals, right? "

I don't think zealotry,has anything to do with it and some folks,will never make good Christians..but we do know,what's Good and what's Evil,fighting against evil,that which comes from the Left,in the form of secular humanism and amoral relativism,is a 'Good" fight.

" Last time I checked, we're the ones who want to make sure that kids get proper sex education so hopefully they won't be put in a bad situation like in the story you posted. We're the ones who want to make sure condoms are available to cut down on unwanted pregnancies (ie, abortions) and rates of STD transmission (some of those can kill ya). Christ, we're the ones who want to help poor people (the ones who disproportionally have most of the unwanted pregnancies in America) get out of poverty so this stuff stops happening. But no; God doesn't want that, huh? "

That's the problem..stepping around parents,to teach children about sex,from a leftist's point of view(anything goes),parents have the right to choose when and how,they will discuss sex with their children,especially if they are a family of Faith. You and the Left,promote promiscuity and bad behaviour,we promote abstinence and good behaviour. As for helping poor folks,y'all want to do that,by promoting socialism and income re-distribution..not by helping them to rise above their poverty and stop taking hand-outs,which are really just bribes for votes.

" Beyond that, we're the ones against the death-damn-penalty (while you guys want to execute retarded people, literally, and kids) and people being able to buy assault rifles. I mean, honestly. Who hunts with an uzi or an M-16? Hell, who hunts with a handgun? The only time anyone ever hears of those weapons, it's when somebody gets KILLED. "

You believe in a criminal's right to victimize others,I don't..why should any murderer,git a second chance to murder ? Victims,have a right to justice too. As for assault rifles,civilians can't buy them,because they have full-auto,what yer talkin about..is just a semi-auto rifle,that happens to look like a full-auto assault rifle. I wouldn't hunt with an UZI,but I'd hunt with an M-16,set to single or semi-auto,I prefer a larger caliber round than a .223 or 9mm.

Have a good one...

Culture of life my ass.

And by the way, no one is pro-abortion as the GOP likes to spout off over and over again. It's just that some of us are pro-CHOICE.

(TOROG WROTE)
That's the problem..stepping around parents,to teach children about sex,from a leftist's point of view(anything goes),parents have the right to choose when and how,they will discuss sex with their children,especially if they are a family of Faith. You and the Left,promote promiscuity and bad behaviour,we promote abstinence and good behaviour. As for helping poor folks,y'all want to do that,by promoting socialism and income re-distribution..not by helping them to rise above their poverty and stop taking hand-outs,which are really just bribes for votes.

New Rule: Abstinence pledges make you horny. In a setback for the morals/values crowd, a new eight-year study just released reveals that American teenagers who take virginity pledges wind up with just as many STD's as the other kids. But that's not all. "Taking the pledge" also makes a teenage girl six times more likely to perform oral sex, and four times more likely to allow anal. Which leads me to an important question: where were these pledges when I was in high school?

So, seriously, when I was a teenager, the only kids having anal intercourse, were the ones who missed. My idea of lubrication was oiling my bike chain. If I had known I could have been getting porn-star sex the same year I took Algebra 2 - simply by joining up with the Christian right - I'd have been so down with Jesus, they would have had to pry me out of the pew.

And, let me tell you, there is a lot worse things than teenagers having sex. Namely, teenagers not having sex. Here is something you'll never hear: "That suicide bomber blew himself up because he was having too much sex. Sex, sex, sex, nonstop, all that crazy Arab ever had was sex, and look what happened." But among the puritans here of the 21st century, the less said to kids about sex, the better. Because people who talk about peepees are "potty-mouths."

And so, armed with limited knowledge and believing that regular, vaginal intercourse to be either immaculate or filthy dirty - these kids did with their pledge what everybody does with contracts. They found loopholes. Two of them, to be exact.

Is there any greater irony than the fact that the Christian right actually got their precious little adolescent daughters to say to their freshly-scrubbed boyfriends, "Please, I want to remain pure for my wedding night, so only in the ass... And then I'll blow you, I promise." Well, at least these kids are really thinking outside the box.

Howdy XTC,

So..since kids will be kids..we should just throw our hands up in surrender ?

I don't think so !

We shouldn't be encouraging kids to engage in what should be adult matters,instead,we should hold them accountable,for their choices and decisions..there would be no teen pregnancies,if just one of the partners,was being responsible. If the teens were made fully aware of all the consequences,consequences which should include punishment,then maybe so many of them,wouldn't git tangled up in a mess,that's best dealt with,when they're adults..not children.

You ask: "Which leads me to an important question: where were these pledges when I was in high school? "

Well..I'd say,that it's most likely because you went to a liberal school,being run by secular humanists. When I went to school,it was at a conservative school system and they promoted abstinence..and it was run by conservative Christians..who don't believe in the sexual exploitation of children,in order to advance tolerance for sexually deviant behaviour,like the lefty secularists do.

I think it's obvious,that you believe there should be no boundaries for children..that in fact,they should all be treated like little adults..it's that kind of thinking..that has us in the mess,that we are in today. Children..should just be allowed to be children,not forced into making adult decisions about sex,or encouraged to explore sexually,children of Faith,should not be discriminated against and ridiculed by liberal staff,nor parental authority usurped..especially by the likes of liberal,secular humanists.

Have a good one...

Yes, Lets not have our teenagers take adult decisions. Let's shelter them until they are 30 and force down their necks that God's will should be EVERYONE'S Will. I mean their fasicnation about sex is Only NATURAL.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by XTC

Yes, Lets not have our teenagers take adult decisions. Let's shelter them until they are 30 and force down their necks that God's will should be EVERYONE'S Will.

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yeah! God forbid that our kids should grow up actually appreciating and understanding sex.. God forbid that they should learn to explore their sexuality!!! No!!! We'll shelter them and make sure they dont know shit about shit...

and while we're at it, lets beat them with our belts, just so they learn their lessons..

:(

Quote:

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Originally Posted by XTC

Yes, Lets not have our teenagers take adult decisions. Let's shelter them until they are 30 and force down their necks that God's will should be EVERYONE'S Will. I mean their fasicnation about sex is Only NATURAL.

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Howdy XTC,

School should be about educating children...not for promoting sexual activity,parents should teach the kids about sexual matters,when they feel the kid is ready,not when some daggum,secular humanist,feels it's time. This is also,just another way for secularists,to attack family's of Faith.

Torog, what about families who are not religious? Do their children have to live by your morals? Im sure if you didnt want one of your children to be taught about sex in school then you can discuss that with the school and your kid wouldnt have to attend that class... but why should the rest of the kids - whos parents DO want them to learn about sex in school - miss out just because you disagree with it?

Why are Chrisitans So special. Everything has to be their way and forced upon all. I mean public schools have a rich diversity and not every single child grew up in a Christian/Catholic enviroment. So their parents might have different view on different topics such as sexual education. Schools don't promote sex or else.. I would go back to Highschool, but they educate them. I dont know one school that would promote sex.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GHoSToKeR

yeah! God forbid that our kids should grow up actually appreciating and understanding sex.. God forbid that they should learn to explore their sexuality!!! No!!! We'll shelter them and make sure they dont know sh*t about sh*t...

and while we're at it, lets beat them with our belts, just so they learn their lessons..

:(

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Howdy GhostToker,

Children,don't need to appreciate or understand sex..their job,is to grow up and get an education..not have as many sexual partners as possible. There should be more beatings with belts,discipline and punishment,should be established early and the child should be made aware,that their parents are the absolute authority..until they achieve an age of majority and leave the home. I spanked my kid,when she was growing,but not much,because she's a fast learner,my brother and I,however,required many a beatin with a belt..I'm glad that my dad cared enough to set us straight..it made us into better adults. I told him several years ago,thanx for spanking us,and setting boundaries,it established a clear sense of wrong and right,and that we are each responsible for our own decisions..and should be held accountable for them. My girlfriend has told me,that her parents didn't care what she did,and that she wishes that they had,like mine did. Because,just maybe,she wouldn't have been raped when she was only 13..and raped again,before she was 15..she never told her parents,because she felt that they didn't care.

Have a good one...

Torog, neither of my parents has EVER beaten me or my brother and sisters.. All three of my sisters are now successful people, and my brother is in a job that he wants to be in, and is also successful.. They all have a sense of right and wrong, good and bad.. All three of my sisters have children, and are all excellent parents, and they dont beat their children.. Are you saying my parents shdould have beaten them? Are you saying my sisters should beat their children?

Your girlfriend being raped is a sad and horrible thing.. But it was not HER fault that it happened.. it was the fault of the people who did it to her

I have never been beaten by my parents, as I said.. In fact, both of my parents are quite 'liberal' in their methods of parenting, and yet i am a well rounded individual, who does his best not to hurt or harm others.. I consider it a bonus that i will never beat my children.

Its true that you raise your children how you were raised yourself... so i am glad i was never beaten, because i never wish to beat my children.. I dont think respect through fear is a positive kind of respect.

I believe that the only way to educate people about STD's, AIDs, etc, is to teach them about sex and how to be safe. Also, kids are going to have sex whether you want them to or not.. is it not better that they know about the consequences of unsafe sex?

oh, and don't get me wrong, Torog.. Its not like I want e veryone to grow up and participate in bondage, orgies and all kinds of wierd sex with hundreds of random partners.. I just think its a good idea for everybody to understand and appreciate sex, and to grow up without thinking that sex is something to be ashamed of.

ANother point I want to make and I am not! attacking religion. I, myself a catholic believe that RELIGION HAS NO PLACE IN POLITICS, It does not belong in politics though because of its absolute, non-universal, and passionate nature. In the next four years, I believe we will see a disastrous reversal of civil rights and a movement backwards. Equality based on race and sexual orientation will have to wait another four years, and by then there will probably be a lot more court cases against our side. Some specifics that I predict:

1) roe v wade will be overturned, and if not, there will be more restrictions on abortion like parental notification
2) gay rights are gone. absolutely gone. I believe 12 states passed bans on gay marriage through referendums on election day. A constitutional amendment is the next thing.
3) massive misuse of federal funds. To pay for military action and tax cuts, social programs will have to be dismantled.
4) incredible anti-americanism. The world already hates us, and we are going to become public enemy .1 if we fuck with any other country (which we will)

I have one hope, and that is fillibustering. The republicans don't have enough in the senate to stop it. It's the only hope to challenge the agenda.

1. even if it was(wich it wont be)it dosent make it illegal,the states can choose.

2. it was 14 states

3. look a little bit closer at the economy kiddo.i made ALOT of money last year(stocks and bonds)and the unemployment rate is lower than when your hero clinton was around.

4. i am quite sure you havent done much traveling so i should say,DONT BE A SUCKER FOR MOORES MOVIES AND CNN.i traveled all over europe,russia and the middle east and had a blast.NEVER HAD A PROBLEM.DONT BELIEVE THE HYPE.

it dosent matter,every year all over the world(England,Australia,United States)liberal ideas and politics are rejected by the people and pushed aside.you guys are missing the real revolution.

Oh, man, it would take an hour to set all of this lying and distorting straight. I don't know where to begin. But I'll try.

Torog: How the hell does sex education make kids have sex? Does drug education make kids take drugs (might be the wrong place to ask that)? Does driver's ed cause kids to be in car crashes? My sex education class wasn't "hands-on" and I don't think that's the case for anyone.

And what of the people who don't share your morals and values? Christianity is not absolute, no matter what you may think. Suppose, hypothetically, that our kids go to the same school, but I don't want my kid learning any math because it goes against our Headinthesand-ism. Wouldn't you be pissed off when I go to the school board railing against the evil math teaching going on at taxpayer expense? Wouldn't you be irate when I called for the end of math teaching? Wouldn't it make more sense if I just decided to pull my kid out of math instead of trying to take it away from everyone?

And how does me not wanting to execute criminals constitute a want on my part for their continued criminal actions? Don't we have prisons or am I mistaken?

Why is me stating the fact that famine and genocide in Africa are happening tantamount to blaming those things on America? I guess you must blame your newspaper for everything you read in it.

Stop distorting what people say. Damn. That's the only reason why I went off on that rant before. You blamed that kids abortion on me. I will not fucking stand for that.

And yes, I know that the assault weapons you speak of aren't fully automatic. But the kits used to make them fully automatic are out there and available to anyone who wants one. You can make an M-16 fully automatic, but you can't make a 30-06 automatic. And by your "sex education making kids fuck" rationale, doesn't the fact that such kits are available mean that all assault rifles will be fully automatic in the end?

amsterdam: Of course you had no problems travelling around the world. You'll find that most people in the world are more tolerant towards differing viewpoints.

Would you agree that American homosexuals are still citizens? And would you also agree that the Constitution gives equal protection to American citizens? I think you'll start to see those 14 states having to reverse their stance on gay marriage in the near future, no matter what the people voted.

And I'm glad you made a lot of money in stocks and bonds. Good for you. But most people don't trade stocks and bonds though. The stock market has gone up 135% over the last ten years while the minimum wage still puts people working full time on it under the poverty line. The unemployment rate is down because a lot of people have resorted to working two or three of those low-paying jobs to make ends meet.

XTC: Please start crediting Bill Maher for your "new rules." Otherwise, we're cool. :)

of course gay people are citizens.i am for gays getting married.i could care less.

as for the laws changing any time soon,you are sorely mistaken my friend.

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Originally Posted by bhallg2k

Why is me stating the fact that famine and genocide in Africa are happening tantamount to blaming those things on America? I guess you must blame your newspaper for everything you read in it.

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Finnaly someone at least aknowleges what is happening!! It;s not only the United States that is IGNORING the death and suffering in so many other countries, but the entire industrialized world.

bhallg2k, I know everyone will hate me for this, but... Everyone who is "under the poverty line", is there because of thier own damn fault. You show me a 30+ year old guy making minimun wage and I will show you a LOSER. I dont want to hear sob stories of how the poor family cant support thier kids, becasue it's the damn parent's fault, not society's! The fact is there are ALOT of lazy fuckers out there, that think anyone else who is actaully working for money should owe them something. Well, friends, this is the beggining of communism. Why should people that put forth effort have to support a bunch of lazy deadbeats?

Another thing, anyone who works "full time under the poverty line", makes enough for just them to live. Trust me, I did it for 2 years. The equation changes a little when these deadbeat losers have kids, like everyone knows they shouldn't. So the lesson is... don't have kids if you can't afford it.

The final lesson is: Don't be stupid and you won't be poor!

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Originally Posted by Hydrizzle

bhallg2k, I know everyone will hate me for this, but... Everyone who is "under the poverty line", is there because of thier own damn fault.

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So...what you're saying is that some of the estimated 25,000 active-duty U.S. soldiers who qualify for food stamps are losers?

(Statistical Source: DoD report from 1999 [most recent one available] on the financial condition of the armed forces, which also found that 40 percent of lower-ranking soldiers face "substantial financial difficulties.")

Hmm, this gross mischaracterization thing could work for me. Seems to work for the right.

Soldiers don't really make that much--when they have a bunch of kids draining thier funds. That's my whole point--so many people have kids when they can't afford it. Yes, apparently these 25,000 soldiers that are on the food stamp program are stupid. THe army pays you pretty gtood, and you get to save money the whole time while you are in the military; I have friends who are in the military, who have no kids, no bills, no wife, etc... and they will have enough money when they get out to buy a house, a car, and have some skills to get a good job. Apparently these soldiers on food stamps had a wife and kids draining thier funds while in the Army. Just proves my point that you should not have kids unless you ALREADY own a house and have some amount of finantial securtiy. People don't seem to care that they are bringing another human life into poverty. That makes them stupid.

When first read what you were saying, Hydrizzle, I thought you were just being REALLY unsensitive... But after reading it again, I kinda agree.. People SHOULDN'T have children if they can't afford to raise them. Alot (not all, but alot) of people who are relatively poor are poor because of things theyve done in the past.. Now, I know there are alot of poor areas all over the world, and im not talkin about those, im just talkin about people who always bitch about not being able to find work, people who bitch about not being able to raise their kids so would the welfare department please help them, etc, etc, etc... Its not that i dont feel sympathy or compassion towards these people, its just that I agree with Hydrizzle when he says that they are not completely blaimless

Well, you could say I'm a little unsensitive to the plight of poor people in America, because of my belief that if they didn't want to be poor, they could pull themselves up by thier bootstraps and work at making more money. Sure I feel sympathy and compassion for thier kids, who did not askto be born into poverty, but I have nothing but disdain for people that have 6 kids, living in a trailer or apartment, and have to go on welfare because they don't know what a condom is.

Whatever Scrooge. I can understand bein pissed off at all those idiots having 6 kids, but some people are just plain incapable of pulling them selves out of debt or making enough money to stay out of debt in the first place. You are one person i would love to see walk two miles in the shoes of a bum.

I would walk more than 2 miles and drag myself out of myt alchoholic, drug-induced stupor, and go get a job! Save some money up (none spent on booze or drugs), and eventually get a place. All bums could do that, but they don't, for the excact reason that they are bums. They are called bums, hobos, tramps, miscreants and other negative terms for a reason.

Ok, but it has to be a retarded, schizophrenic, Alchoholic bum. =P We'll see how well you do. The ghosts of christmas are comin' to your house tonight! =)

ratarded AND schitzo, AND alchoholic?!!? Ok edgar that may be too much, those bums should just go in the sewer and never come out lol.