Yellow crispy fan leaves on 4 different strains.Deficiency or hard water?

Hello people.It's been about 10 days I have this problem and it seems it's getting worst gradually.I'm growing 4 different strains:Masterkush, Super Silver Haze, Ice Cream and Blue Cheese.


Here are some pictures:
Attachment 279005
Attachment 279006

And the most affected plant, masterkush:
Attachment 279007

I've switched to 12/12 5 days ago.I'm using a 400 watt HPS and it's 45cm away from tops.Not overwatering or underwatering, temps 27-29 C lights on and 20-21 C lights off.I've fed them twice with biogrow, 1/3-1/2 of minimum suggested dosage and ten days later I added biobloom, 1/2 of minimum suggested dosage.It's been a week since the last.I'm using tap water which I let it sit for 4-5 days prior to watering.I suspect that it's the water though because it's very hard.

I've been searching pretty hard and the symptoms look like potassium or phosphorus deficiency or light burn.Light burn seems unlikely because of the light distance.I can't check the ph but since I've fed them very lightly I don't think it's off.So what's your opinions?

Your light distance is ok, it could even be closer imo (12inches). Ive used 400w before, so I think 12in is a good distance depending on size of grow. I know nothing on those nutrients you use and their dosage so I cannot comment, but pH is a huge deal. When you add nutrients to water, you are lowering the pH of the total solution. I have a 7.3 pH coming out of my tap, and when I add nutes to a batch of water to apply to my plants, it isnt uncommon to see low 5.0 pH levels, which is WAY WAY to acidic. Also, for soil chemistry reasons, if you have too high or too low pH, which I think you have too low pH, nutrient lockout happens. It surely does look like you have nutrient deficiencies, but I cannot tell you which because I dont know.. But you might be changing your soils pH as you feed your plant over time, which is how lockout of nutrients happens. So if you continue to add nutes, you build up acid levels in the soil and will kill the plant. Also, a really good way of telling this is to check the pH 'runoff' . The water that drains out of your soil. This will tell you what your soil pH is approx... For soil it should be like 6.6-7.0 imo... I know you dont have a way to check pH levels, but I highly suggest you get pH test strips or even better a digital meter that checks it.

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Originally Posted by Salvein211

Your light distance is ok, it could even be closer imo (12inches). Ive used 400w before, so I think 12in is a good distance depending on size of grow. I know nothing on those nutrients you use and their dosage so I cannot comment, but pH is a huge deal. When you add nutrients to water, you are lowering the pH of the total solution. I have a 7.3 pH coming out of my tap, and when I add nutes to a batch of water to apply to my plants, it isnt uncommon to see low 5.0 pH levels, which is WAY WAY to acidic. Also, for soil chemistry reasons, if you have too high or too low pH, which I think you have too low pH, nutrient lockout happens. It surely does look like you have nutrient deficiencies, but I cannot tell you which because I dont know.. But you might be changing your soils pH as you feed your plant over time, which is how lockout of nutrients happens. So if you continue to add nutes, you build up acid levels in the soil and will kill the plant. Also, a really good way of telling this is to check the pH 'runoff' . The water that drains out of your soil. This will tell you what your soil pH is approx... For soil it should be like 6.6-7.0 imo... I know you dont have a way to check pH levels, but I highly suggest you get pH test strips or even better a digital meter that checks it.

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I can't check the ph for now but I don't think it's the issue here because I've only fed them twice and very lightly.It looks like deficiencies to me so I am thinking I should feed the 3 of them tomorrow and flush the masterkush.Do I have the OK from you? ;)

3 years ago I tested the ph of the tap water and it was 7.5-8, that's why I bought a ph-down solution.I just remembered that.So today I gave them nutes + ph-down hoping to fix the hypothetical ph issue.I won't be able to test the run-off ph until Monday.

Could be as simple as needing repotting. Get a troubleshooting form filled out. I don't think you have a serious problem....yet.....lets figure it out before you throw everything at it.

If you can't afford a $7.00 freswater aquarium ph test kit, you can google your local water quality report, which should have pertinant information about your local tapwater.
But Like Washougal said...please copy-n-paste the troubleshooting form here, and fill it in as best you can. (no guesswork...if you don't know, just say so)

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Originally Posted by WashougalWonder

Could be as simple as needing repotting. Get a troubleshooting form filled out. I don't think you have a serious problem....yet.....lets figure it out before you throw everything at it.

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Is it easy to repot in same size pot?I imagine it as really root disturbing.I can't use bigger pots because there is not enough space in the growroom.

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Originally Posted by Rusty Trichome

If you can't afford a $7.00 freswater aquarium ph test kit, you can google your local water quality report, which should have pertinant information about your local tapwater.
But Like Washougal said...please copy-n-paste the troubleshooting form here, and fill it in as best you can. (no guesswork...if you don't know, just say so)

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I'm in a small town and finding cheap ph strips is not easy.Last time I only found in a pet shop and I payed 20â?¬ for 20 strips measuring ph and EC, I found my company's site though.I'm not sure from what source I'm taking but I lowered them to 2.So, PH: 7.75 for source A and 7.68 for source b.EC:433 μS/cm for A and 427 for b.

Your Equipment:
.1) Type and wattage of lights. Hps 400 watts
.2) Distance from tops? 45cm
.3) Reflector type? cool tube set-up
.4) Is there a consistent fresh air supply?I am using a pc fan of 110cfm for outtake and leave the closet doors opened, so passive intake.
.5) Do you have an exhaust fan and a circulation fan?A fan out the closet hitting the tops.
.6) What are the bulb wattages, kelvin ratings, and schedule?12/12

Your medium:
.7) Specific brand and type of soil.soil, slightly fertilized and added perlite (not much).I put some rocks in the bottom of the pots for better drainage.
.8) Size of container.13L
.9) Did you use peat pucks (or similar) to root clones or germinate seedlings?No

Your nutrients and water:
10) Source of water? (tap, bottled or filtered) What's it's ph before adjusting?Tap water of ph 7.7
11) Method of checking water ph. (ph pen, test strips, aquarium test kit...)
12) Method of adjusting water ph. (phosphoric acid, white vinegar, hydrated lime, PH Up...)I am not adjusting
13) Specific brand and N-P-K ratio for each bottle. List dosages (quantity per gallon) and current feeding schedule.Biogrow (8-2-6), Biobloom(2-6-3.5), Alg-A-Mic(0.1-0.1-0.1 + trace elements).Feeding every 10 days.Have fed them twice.First time Biogrow 0.7ml/L.Second time Biogrow 0.9ml/L and Biobloom 0.9ml/L.Today I fed them with Biogrow 1ml/L, Biobloom 1ml/L, Alg-A-Mic 1ml/L and 0.5ml/L of a ph down which contains 4-18-0..I think I overdid it on phosphorus this time.
14) How often are you watering between feedings, and how much per watering?About 2 times a week, 0.5L on each pot.
15) Any additives or tea's? (Superthrive, CalMag, molasses, Mother's Earth...)No
16) Are your ph levels stable, or do they fluctuate?
17) What is your ingoing water's ph? ...your runoff ph?On regular waterings ph about 7.7
18) Do you foliar feed? If so, with what, how often, and at what time do you spray?No

Your growroom:
19) Indoors or outdoors?Indoors
20) What size of closet, room or hut?60cmx90cm.Height 160cm.
21) What are the temps and humidity levels while lights are on? ...With lights off? Lights on 27-29C, mostly 28.5-29C and hum 30% lights on.Temp drops to 20-21C lights off.
22) Have you seen signs of insects in the growroom?No, never had.

Your strain:
23) What strain are you growing? (Indica dominate or Sativa dom?) One sativa dom, 2 indica dom and one 60%-40%.
24) From seeds or clones?Seeds
25) Is this an autoflower strain? No

I think Rusty and WW can give you better advice then I, but I will just say that yeah before you throw pH down in there, be careful. The main point of my post was that when you have pure water at a 7.3-7.7 pH or whatever have you, adding nutes drops it considerably. I know you said you havent fed much, so that could mean pH isnt the issue, but its something to look at. So before you know what pH levels you are dealing with, I wouldnt use pH down, because it was my idea that the pH was already too low after adding nutes to the water... pH down would just make it worse...

Proper ingoing water ph, in peat-based soil, is between 6.3 and 6.8 if the soil is already properly buffered. You didn't mention brand or kind of soil, but check the bag to see if it says it's ph balanced. Since you mentioned that the soil is "slightly fertilized", it might be that you're adding too many nutrients before the existing nutrients in the soil burn-off. (get used-up)
Which specific brand and type. (Miracle Grow 6 month, Scotts 3 month, Fox Farms Ocean Forest, SuperSoil...?) Is it an indoor potting mix? Just curious, because outdoor mixes tend to be virtually unbuffered. (ph is too low ofr indoor cannabis)

My tapwater (from a well) comes out of the tap at 7.9ish ph. After adding 1/4 tsp of phDown per gallon of water, the ph is about 6.9ish. Adding nutrients to that, (Fox Farms) my ingoing water is at 6.3ish. Everyone's situation will be different, so do not use my numbers as a hard and fast rule, but as an example. Adjust to suit YOUR situation.

For instance, my water comes from an underground aquafir, through layers of magnesium/limestone bedrock. the minerals in my water want to keep bringing-up the ph. (I don't R/O my water) So my quantity of phDown might be a bit of overkill for someone else's 7.9 water that's unaffected by minerals.
Perhaps intimidating, but not really rocket science, lol.

Any of that make sence?

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Originally Posted by Salvein211

I think Rusty and WW can give you better advice then I, but I will just say that yeah before you throw pH down in there, be careful. The main point of my post was that when you have pure water at a 7.3-7.7 pH or whatever have you, adding nutes drops it considerably. I know you said you havent fed much, so that could mean pH isnt the issue, but its something to look at. So before you know what pH levels you are dealing with, I wouldnt use pH down, because it was my idea that the pH was already too low after adding nutes to the water... pH down would just make it worse...

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Yeah you're right, but I added ph down, just a little, acting by instict.I'm observing it carefully every some hours until I got my ph strips.

The liquid ph test kits are better, more accurate than the strips, IMHO. Possibly cheaper as well.

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Originally Posted by Rusty Trichome

Proper ingoing water ph, in peat-based soil, is between 6.3 and 6.8 if the soil is already properly buffered. You didn't mention brand or kind of soil, but check the bag to see if it says it's ph balanced. Since you mentioned that the soil is "slightly fertilized", it might be that you're adding too many nutrients before the existing nutrients in the soil burn-off. (get used-up)
Which specific brand and type. (Miracle Grow 6 month, Scotts 3 month, Fox Farms Ocean Forest, SuperSoil...?) Is it an indoor potting mix? Just curious, because outdoor mixes tend to be virtually unbuffered. (ph is too low ofr indoor cannabis)

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Unfortunately I don't have the soil bag or remember the brand but It wasn't big brand, that's for sure.I think it was german...
I'm not sure about the ph, I think it was 6-6.5.If it was unbuffered or with much fertilizer wouldn't it damage them when they were seedlings?When I fed them they had 34 days in this soil so the nutes should have been gone.Last year I used the same soil and fed them earlier with no problems.

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Originally Posted by Rusty Trichome

The liquid ph test kits are better, more accurate than the strips, IMHO. Possibly cheaper as well.

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I also ordered a kit containing liquid ph test kit, ph down solution and ph up solution paying 26€ for all of them.

Might be as simple as...they're hungry and in old soil, and dealing with ph issues...

Does the water go straight through the soil, or does the water sit and absorb rather easily? If it goes straight through, you might want a surfactant. Also called a wetting agent. 1/4 teaspoon of NON-antibacterial dishsoap in a gallon of properly ph'd water wirks the same, and will help the water absorb better. One or two waterings should do the trick. If that's not it, at least other's have the info... Remember...the the anti-bacterial kind of dishsoap. (it'll kill the beneficial bacteria in the soil)

Seedlings prefer the acidity, and yes, the nutrients can stress a seedling. Some brands can stress 'em too much. But I did learn to grow cannabis in Miracle Grow Potting Mix (3 month) for the first year of growing indoors. Stresses 'em a tad, but cannabis acclimates rather quickly if given a good growing enviornment. (no overwatering, no additional nutrients till appropriate, no "miracle" ammendments...)

But a lot of the seedling mixes are a mix of stuff the seedlings prefer. Usually unbuffered peat moss (4.5 ph or so) that's been screened fine, with tiny chunks of perlite mixed-in...it's too acidic and there's not enough "body" in the soil to keep a plant upright, and usually no buffering agent.

Some seedling mixes also have a wetting agent and some form of chellated nutrients, and some are even ph buffered. Some are made from sedge peat, which can be closer to neutral than sphagnum. Hardly necessary info here, but it might find a use somewhere, sometime, for someone.

Crap...what was the question again...?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rusty Trichome

Might be as simple as...they're hungry and in old soil, and dealing with ph issues...

Does the water go straight through the soil, or does the water sit and absorb rather easily? If it goes straight through, you might want a surfactant. Also called a wetting agent. 1/4 teaspoon of NON-antibacterial dishsoap in a gallon of properly ph'd water wirks the same, and will help the water absorb better. One or two waterings should do the trick. If that's not it, at least other's have the info... Remember...the the anti-bacterial kind of dishsoap. (it'll kill the beneficial bacteria in the soil)

Seedlings prefer the acidity, and yes, the nutrients can stress a seedling. Some brands can stress 'em too much. But I did learn to grow cannabis in Miracle Grow Potting Mix (3 month) for the first year of growing indoors. Stresses 'em a tad, but cannabis acclimates rather quickly if given a good growing enviornment. (no overwatering, no additional nutrients till appropriate, no "miracle" ammendments...)

But a lot of the seedling mixes are a mix of stuff the seedlings prefer. Usually unbuffered peat moss (4.5 ph or so) that's been screened fine, with tiny chunks of perlite mixed-in...it's too acidic and there's not enough "body" in the soil to keep a plant upright, and usually no buffering agent.

Some seedling mixes also have a wetting agent and some form of chellated nutrients, and some are even ph buffered. Some are made from sedge peat, which can be closer to neutral than sphagnum. Hardly necessary info here, but it might find a use somewhere, sometime, for someone.

Crap...what was the question again...?

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For now I can't give you more info about the soil or the ph.I remember checking the ph when I bought it so I don't think it was very acidic.When I water them, the water sits for a while in the surface and then it goes through the soil.It sits for like 10 seconds.In 2 of the pots it drips after watering but I think that's due to the rocks I put in the bottom of them, I am not overwatering.
Today I see them a little bit better and bigger, the thing with the leaves didn't get any worse for sure.Yesterday's feeding might have helped them.Tomorrow the effects of the feeding whether good or bad should show up.Will post new photos then.Thanks for bothering with my problem, I appreciate it! :thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by stefanosstef

When I water them, the water sits for a while in the surface and then it goes through the soil.It sits for like 10 seconds.In 2 of the pots it drips after watering but I think that's due to the rocks I put in the bottom of them, I am not overwatering.

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Never heard of wetting agents, I'm searching it now.From what I describe do you think this is the case here?I found it weird that it drips everytime I water them but I thought it was the rocks.Also, the first cm of surface soil remain moisturized 2 days after watering.

I see several things.
1. Over fertilization.....don't give any more nutes.
2. Incoming pH too high. Use molasses (unsulphered) to lower. CHECK PH EVERY WATERING.
3. Rocks in bottom of pot, no good. Next time use pots sized to plant and let them grow into them. As you repot this adds new mix and essentially fertilizer.
4. If it is still moist on top, you may be overwatering.

Again, pH can vary greatly in just one day. Check every time.

I the water doesn't 'channel' straight through the soil, a wetting agent (dishsoap) is unnecessary, and don't use it.
Don't let the soil remain wet. Cannabis needs a wet-dry cycle for proper growth.

Once you get your ph test kit, it will eliminate some causes or highlight what's actually going on.

Likely a good idea to get some fresh soil for your next grow. Check with the locals to see what's available in your town. Old, questionable soil just adds to the guesswork of trying to narrow-down causes and effects.

Some fresh pix would help. Old leaves are old news. What's the new growth looking like?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by WashougalWonder

I see several things.
1. Over fertilization.....don't give any more nutes.
2. Incoming pH too high. Use molasses (unsulphered) to lower. CHECK PH EVERY WATERING.
3. Rocks in bottom of pot, no good. Next time use pots sized to plant and let them grow into them. As you repot this adds new mix and essentially fertilizer.
4. If it is still moist on top, you may be overwatering.

Again, pH can vary greatly in just one day. Check every time.

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2.I used a ph down solution, as I mentioned above but I can't do much until I am able to check the ph.
4.It's not when I water, just 2 days before.I have grown 4 times in the past, I know when to water.

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Originally Posted by Rusty Trichome

I the water doesn't 'channel' straight through the soil, a wetting agent (dishsoap) is unnecessary, and don't use it.
Don't let the soil remain wet. Cannabis needs a wet-dry cycle for proper growth.

Once you get your ph test kit, it will eliminate some causes or highlight what's actually going on.

Likely a good idea to get some fresh soil for your next grow. Check with the locals to see what's available in your town. Old, questionable soil just adds to the guesswork of trying to narrow-down causes and effects.

Some fresh pix would help. Old leaves are old news. What's the new growth looking like?

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I let the soil dry before I water, overwatering not the issue.New growth is fine, no mutant or twisty leaves, not even on old ones.Today I see them bigger and at least 2 of them begin showing sex.That's good news I suppose.

The watering issue I was refering to was in regards to the ability of the soil to retain water.
Old soil almost rejects the water so little is absorbed.

If you're happy with 'em, I'm happy. :thumbsup:

I had to LOL at this.... As WW said, no rocks in the bottom of your pots. Now I only laugh because I did this a few times myself and found out the painful way.. When It came time to transplant, the rocks would fall out of the rootball on bottom, and loosen some of the soil, and lets just say, A BIG MESS and a lot more shock to the plant! I suppose you could use rocks for the FINAL pot you are going to use, BUT, as I learned, these rocks have a certain pH. Being at the bottom of your medium, it wont matter as much, but the roots will bind there and feed around them, thus creating maybe a problem you dont need.

Personally...I started placing the rocks in the catch tray and place the pot on top. Haven't picked a rock out of the roots in years. Gives more room for soil and roots as well.
Just be careful of your runoff. The tray will fill a bit quicker.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rusty Trichome

Personally...I started placing the rocks in the catch tray and place the pot on top. Haven't picked a rock out of the roots in years. Gives more room for soil and roots as well.
Just be careful of your runoff. The tray will fill a bit quicker.

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Originally Posted by Salvein211

I had to LOL at this.... As WW said, no rocks in the bottom of your pots. Now I only laugh because I did this a few times myself and found out the painful way.. When It came time to transplant, the rocks would fall out of the rootball on bottom, and loosen some of the soil, and lets just say, A BIG MESS and a lot more shock to the plant! I suppose you could use rocks for the FINAL pot you are going to use, BUT, as I learned, these rocks have a certain pH. Being at the bottom of your medium, it wont matter as much, but the roots will bind there and feed around them, thus creating maybe a problem you dont need.

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Hehe, I thought rocks would be a problem if I had to transplant but I planted the seeds directly in 13L pots.Sometimes transplanting stops growth for some days (shock) and I had limited time for veggin, so, since I've got even the trace elements to feed them, I chose not to transplant.Rocks help with the drainage and I use them with every plant I grow.

Anyway something came up and I had to leave.I'm in my hometown now.I will update on Monday, I should have the ph kit until then.:jointsmile:

Rocks just mess with life. I think you should .... next grow....use smaller pots and work your way up as necessary for the plant. You can get too many bad things going on in soil over 6 weeks old. One in particular is loss of buffers.

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Originally Posted by WashougalWonder

Rocks just mess with life. I think you should .... next grow....use smaller pots and work your way up as necessary for the plant. You can get too many bad things going on in soil over 6 weeks old. One in particular is loss of buffers.

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Next time I won't avoid repotting.So I checked the ph.I watered with 7.7 ph water and the run off water was 7, so I guess soil's ph is around 6.5 which is ideal.This complicates things further.Temps are ok, ph is ok, watering schedule ok...what is left is a defficiency, maybe a trace element?What do you think?:what:

[attachment=o279394][attachment=o279395]
I've switched the places of each pot for better space usage, so don't compare them to previous photo based on position :P
Up right is the ssh which has started also to form buds.I have 5-6 weeks until harvest, I'm expecting to get an average of 30g per plant.