Buds not getting big as I think they should

What is your experience level? (first timer, novice, experienced...) Novice to Intermediate

Your Equipment:
.1) Type and wattage of lights. (MH, HPS, CFL's, tube fluorescents, LED's)1000w HPS
.2) Distance from tops? Approx 18-24 inches
.3) Reflector type? (cool tube set-up, bat wing, enclosed reflector, bare bulb...)enclosed reflector
.4) Is there a consistent fresh air supply?yes
.5) Do you have an exhaust fan and a circulation fan?440 cfm yes
.6) What are the bulb wattages, kelvin ratings, and schedule? 1000w hps 12/12

Your medium:
.7) Specific brand and type of soil, (coco, peat based soilless...) and anything you've added to it. (vermiculite, perlite, worm castings...) 4x4 rockwool cubes
.8) Size of container. eb and flow trays 4x4 rw cubes
.9) Did you use peat pucks (or similar) to root clones or germinate seedlings?clones in ready rooter pucks

Your nutrients and water:
10) Source of water? (tap, bottled or filtered) What's it's ph before adjusting?Tap water 6.8 ph
11) Method of checking water ph. (ph pen, test strips, aquarium test kit...)hanah digital
12) Method of adjusting water ph. (phosphoric acid, white vinegar, hydrated lime, PH Up...) I use ph up and down from hydro store sometimes but don't need it most of the time. I was told 6.8 was fine.
13) Specific brand and N-P-K ratio for each bottle. List dosages (quantity per gallon) and current feeding schedule. I use two home made ebb and flow systems. One has a 20 gal res with 4 trays 12 plants. Second one has a 17gal res 3 trays 12 plants. I use only botanicare neuts. pro bloom 10ml per gal..... Liquid Karma 8ml per gal...... Hydroplex 5ml per gal.......Bud Candy 10ml per gal.
14) How often are you watering between feedings, and how much per watering? The ebb and flow only floods when lights are on. Floods for 15min every 3hrs for 12hr light cycle.
15) Any additives or tea's? (Superthrive, CalMag, molasses, Mother's Earth...)no
16) Are your ph levels stable, or do they fluctuate?pretty stable
17) What is your ingoing water's ph? ...your runoff ph? ph stays between 6 and 7.5
18) Do you foliar feed? If so, with what, how often, and at what time do you spray?no

Your growroom:
19) Indoors or outdoors? indoors
20) What size of closet, room or hut? tent 10'long x 5'wide x 7'tall
21) What are the temps and humidity levels while lights are on? ...With lights off?lights on between 70-80F lights off 50-80F
22) Have you seen signs of insects in the growroom? I have had spider mites little pests are hard to get rid off. I have been using Zero Tolerance natural pesticide every 3 days until they are gone.

Your strain:
23) What strain are you growing? (Indica dominate or Sativa dom?)Indicas mostly
24) From seeds or clones? clones
25) Is this an autoflower strain? no

Oh and i have a light mover on a 6ft track 10rpm model set to 45sec stop on both sides.

How many grows have you completed using your current method?

What week of 12/12 are you on?

What are your ppm's?

Ph of 6.8 is ideal for soil. Ideal Ph for hydro is 5.3-5.8 - They might not be swelling because the Ph is too high for your plants to use the K that they need for flowering......

Answer these questions and I can further assist you......

CGI::::::

I have just added one eb and flow system and the light mover to try to increase yield. I dont have a ppm meter and I don't understand ppm's anyway. I have just been adding the neuts in the amounts listed above changing res water and neuts every monday. I have used this recipe for a year minus the light mover. I only flower in the tent. timer is always on 12/12. I veg in another area under t-5 flourecents. In veg the lights are on 24/7 approx 8 weeks then move them into flower on 12/12. The biggest colas im getting are only a few grams and im getting like 3/4 oz to 1oz off each plant and the plants are good size finishing around 40" tall lots of bud sites but buds dry are the size of marbles or a little bigger. Taste great looks great smokes great very powerfull just low yield. Thanks for the help

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bronc76

I have just added one eb and flow system and the light mover to try to increase yield. <------Light Mover good, but.....

I dont have a ppm meter (Get One!)and I don't understand ppm's anyway<------Just one of the reasons.....

I have just been adding the neuts in the amounts listed above changing res water and neuts every monday:thumbsup:. I have used this recipe for a year minus the light mover. I only flower in the tent. timer is always on 12/12. I veg in another area under t-5 flourecents. In veg the lights are on 24/7 (They need some sleep....)approx 8 weeks (That's a long time....) then move them into flower on 12/12.

The biggest colas im getting are only a few grams and im getting like 3/4 oz to 1oz off each plant (I'll explain why below.....) and the plants are good size finishing around 40" tall lots of bud sites but buds dry are the size of marbles or a little bigger. Taste great looks great smokes great very powerfull just low yield. Thanks for the help

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Your tent is too large of a space for just one 1k lamp. I'm sure you already know that they further the lamp from the plant, the less lumens available for the plant to photosynthesize to its fullest potential. Light movers are good but you have to have the right light to space ratio in order to have awesome blossoms. Let me give you a good example of capturing light and lumens. I have a flower cab that is 1/4 the space you are using with the same amount of light and same amount of plants...... Most people say a 1k is good for a 4x4 area. So in your case, I would say that your flower tent lacks light.

If you don't know the terms EC = Electric Conductivity, PPM = Parts Per Million, TDS = Total Dissolved Solids, you need to look them up and find out what they mean and how they effect plant growth. By not know this, you are doing a LOT of work and receiving less in return. After you research these terms, I can help you better understand them if your not sure......

Plants have two phases of photosynthesis. The first phase is the light phase, the second is the dark phase. During the first phase - photosystems in the leaves are light dependent, which is why plants without light will not grow. During the second phase - the dark reaction helps the plant store energy. Prohibiting your plant from storing energy is prohibiting it from growing to its fullest potential...... Think about your plants as little machines. Would they perform better if they had a little bit of rest or possibly exhaust themselves running 24/7.... Also think about roots. Roots are light in-dependent systems which grow when light is on or off. The less energy the plant uses to grow foliage the more growth you will get in the root zone. Healthier roots = healthier buds:thumbsup:....

8 weeks is a long time to veg, especially if you are only harvesting 1oz per plant. Back when I was growing hydro, I would veg clones for 11 days after rooting and average an ounce per plant after flowering for 56 days. Their is definitely room for improvement here!!!!

So If you want bigger better buds, do this - learn ppm, EC, TDS and how N-P-K effects plant growth during different stages. Look for a Ph nutrient chart. Get yourself a ppm meter and another 1k watter. If you can't get another 1k, figure out a way to concentrate your light/lumens. Stop using tap water, invest in an RO system and start using RO water with CalMag and B1. This is just for starters.......let me know if you have any questions......or you can keep doing what your doing and expect different results......

Hope this helps......

CanGroIt::::::

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CanGroIt

Your tent is too large of a space for just one 1k lamp. I'm sure you already know that they further the lamp from the plant, the less lumens available for the plant to photosynthesize to its fullest potential. Light movers are good but you have to have the right light to space ratio in order to have awesome blossoms. Let me give you a good example of capturing light and lumens. I have a flower cab that is 1/4 the space you are using with the same amount of light and same amount of plants...... Most people say a 1k is good for a 4x4 area. So in your case, I would say that your flower tent lacks light.

If you don't know the terms EC = Electric Conductivity, PPM = Parts Per Million, TDS = Total Dissolved Solids, you need to look them up and find out what they mean and how they effect plant growth. By not know this, you are doing a LOT of work and receiving less in return. After you research these terms, I can help you better understand them if your not sure......

Plants have two phases of photosynthesis. The first phase is the light phase, the second is the dark phase. During the first phase - photosystems in the leaves are light dependent, which is why plants without light will not grow. During the second phase - the dark reaction helps the plant store energy. Prohibiting your plant from storing energy is prohibiting it from growing to its fullest potential...... Think about your plants as little machines. Would they perform better if they had a little bit of rest or possibly exhaust themselves running 24/7.... Also think about roots. Roots are light in-dependent systems which grow when light is on or off. The less energy the plant uses to grow foliage the more growth you will get in the root zone. Healthier roots = healthier buds:thumbsup:....

8 weeks is a long time to veg, especially if you are only harvesting 1oz per plant. Back when I was growing hydro, I would veg clones for 11 days after rooting and average an ounce per plant after flowering for 56 days. Their is definitely room for improvement here!!!!

So If you want bigger better buds, do this - learn ppm, EC, TDS and how N-P-K effects plant growth during different stages. Look for a Ph nutrient chart. Get yourself a ppm meter and another 1k watter. If you can't get another 1k, figure out a way to concentrate your light/lumens. Stop using tap water, invest in an RO system and start using RO water with CalMag and B1. This is just for starters.......let me know if you have any questions......or you can keep doing what your doing and expect different results......

Hope this helps......

CanGroIt::::::

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ive been challenged on the light cycle deal before. with 24/7 i agree with you. plants in veg need to rest which is why i prefer a 18/6 schedule. others will insist on 24/7 and it will work just it seems to drain them too soon and cant finish as well. as you said vegging too long will only complicate matters with this schedule.

Thank you guys for the input. I went to local hyro store today and checked out the tds meters. I will be getting one next week. As for the tent being too big. I have another 1000w and a 400w both vented hoods as well just afraid to use any more power. I have my setup in garage and between the a/c the lights and so fourth my bill is pretty high. I plan to section off the tent to help this problem. I will cut space in half and use one side for veg and one side to flower. I will just have to figure out how to deal with my a/c it enters on one side of tent. I will research ppm's as well. Is there a min and max range your ppm's should be in or is it different per each persons set up? As far as the RO water, I am a plumber so that's no problem but the amount of RO water I need would be a problem as the household systems I have installed would be lucky to provide enough in a week if I took water out every day. As you know they produce water very slow and waste more than they make. Is there any other filter available that will give similar results? I don't know of any that will get close to RO water available from my supply house.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bronc76

Is there a min and max range your ppm's should be in or is it different per each persons set up?

As far as the RO water, I am a plumber so that's no problem but the amount of RO water I need would be a problem as the household systems I have installed would be lucky to provide enough in a week....

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Yes there is a max of ppm's. The plants will let you know by dieing if you over fert.... Think of ppm's as a nute strength guide. Little plants need low ppm's where larger plants need more. Some strains can handle more ferts than others so tracking ppm's is a great way to know how much your plants can take before the affects are negative. I used to push 1800 ppm's the last week of flower before flushing, but this is me and I knew the plants could take it. 1800 btw is really high for ppm nute strength, I only recommend going this high if you know what you are doing......

If you were to get a 40-55gal res/tank, you can have the RO flow on a line filling the res/tank on a floating valve. It might take a week for the res/tank to fill but you only need it once a week. I'm sure you'll have no problem running a water line to your grow area where you can connect the RO filter and tank. Shoot, you could even put it in your veg space if you split your flower tent in half....Just to keep it out of wondering eyes view....

If you'd like to pick my brain, just ask away....

CGI::::::

I have been checking on some filters. I found a Everpure H-300 filter that will remove all but two elements that RO does and will give me all I need at a time. I have one of these systems already in my, house will be getting another one for garage. I PHed the water in res now to 5.45. What is a good rule of thumb to start at with the ppm's? I have no idea what the ppms would be with my current recipe will be nice to know. The tds meter is $129.00 at the hydro store will take me a week or so to get the cash. I'm laid off work so lots of time to garden but not much money to put into it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bronc76

What is a good rule of thumb to start at with the ppm's?

I have no idea what the ppms would be with my current recipe will be nice to know.

The tds meter is $129.00 at the hydro store will take me a week or so to get the cash.

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Rule of thumb, start off light.

When you take cuttings for cloning, you want your ppm to be at 250 with a good light starter mix. After they root and you place them into a medium to veg, you can up the ppm's to 3-400. These ppm's need to be made up of N-P-K, micro nutes, vitamins, and if you choose, supplements.

This is my ppm schedule for hydro:

Veg
Week 1 - 3-400ppm
Week 2 - 4-500ppm
Week 3 - 5-600ppm
Flower
Week 1 - 6-700ppm
Week 2 - 7-800ppm
Week 3 - 8-900ppm
Week 4 - 9-1000ppm
Week 5 - 1k-1100ppm
Week 6 - 11-1200ppm
Week 7 - 12-1300ppm
Week 8 - 13-1400ppm
Week 9 - Flush twice

These are day 1 of each week of fresh water with nutes ppm's. After two or three days, you should see a drop in ppm's after topping off your res. This means that your plants are taking in the nutrients you are providing to them. If the ppm's are not dropping, then they are drinking more water than nutes. (Another reason to know ppm's) If they are taking in nutes, it is up to you if you want to replace those nutes with more. If you do, you want to break up the nutes to measure up to the amount of fresh water that you topped your res off with. If you want to let them take in more, that's ok too. Keep in mind that the less ppm's, the more root development you get. This is because the roots grow out to find the nutes needed.....

If at any time you see your plants acting like the next weeks nute strength is too high, signs of over ferting, remove a couple gallons and replace with fresh water to lower ppm's.

Reason why you want to use RO water is to have every PPM accounted for. With tap, you get what the water treatment plant puts in it that makes it safe for human consumption. Depending on your area will depend on what the ppm's from the tap will be. Example: If your tap water has a ppm of 250, that's 250 ppm's of space that could be used by micronutes.....

Does the tds meter you are looking at read more than just tds???

CGI::::::

I think the tds meter had tds and temp on it. I asked the guy at the hydro store about an EC meter and he said I really didnt need it but that the tds meter was vital. The neuts I use now all botanicare products. They will work just have to modify recipe to get correct ppm's right? I have been using pro bloom, liquid k, hydroplex, and bud candy. I will switch to RO water and get the cal mag and B-1 will I need anything else? Thank you so much for taking the time to help me. I don't really consider myself stupid but sometimes this stuff gets so overwhelming it makes you fell that way as well as having a very steep learning curve. LOL

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bronc76

I think the tds meter had tds and temp on it. I asked the guy at the hydro store about an EC meter and he said I really didnt need it but that the tds meter was vital. The neuts I use now all botanicare products. They will work just have to modify recipe to get correct ppm's right? I have been using pro bloom, liquid k, hydroplex, and bud candy. I will switch to RO water and get the cal mag and B-1 will I need anything else? Thank you so much for taking the time to help me. I don't really consider myself stupid but sometimes this stuff gets so overwhelming it makes you fell that way as well as having a very steep learning curve. LOL

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Yeah hydro can be confusing at first but once you got it down, you want to push limits. At least that is how I felt.

Anyway, I hope you haven't bought that tds meter yet. If you are willing to pay 129 for just a tds meter, you might as well look into getting an Extech EC500. It's a waterproof EC/Ph/TDS with temp and salinity. You can get one online for 139+tax and S+H. I mention this one because it's the one I use. Ultimately it's up to you but once you know EC and how it affects plant growth, you might want it.

I noticed you don't have any grow nutrients. Your nutes have enough P and K but not enough N for vegging. Yes, you will have to modify your recipe to get the ppm's right.

This is how I divide my recipe for ppm's: (Using GH 3-part for example)
Measurements are per liter

Week 1 Veg
4ml Grow
2ml Micro
1ml Bloom
2ml Gro Sup
0ml Flwr Sup

Week 2 Veg
5ml Grow
3ml Micro
2ml Bloom
3ml Gro Sup
0ml Flwr Sup

Week 3 Veg
6 ml Grow
4ml Micro
3ml Bloom
4 Gro Sup
0ml Flwr Sup

Week 4 Flwr
2ml Grow
4ml Micro
6ml Bloom
0ml Gro Sup
4ml Flwr Sup

Week 7 Flwr
1ml Grow
3ml Micro
10ml Bloom
0ml Gro Sup
7ml Flwr Sup


Grow, Micro and Bloom are thought of as N-P-K. Then you have your Grow and Bloom Supplements. And I give recommended doses of Micro Nutes, CalMag and B1.

Just to give you an idea of how you should divide up your nutes to have a stable recipe....

Hope this helps....

CGI::::::

The plants in veg have been getting Pro Grow and Liquid Karma. I have been looking at the botanicare web site and there neutrient schedule. Looking under hydroguardens it switches about the 5th week in flower to include pro bloom soil formula. I dont understand that. Why would you use soil formula bloom in an eb and flow system. Something just seems wrong there. Also the amounts of pro bloom per 4 litres are like 2/3 more than ive been using. Do you think the Hydroplex is a good supliment? It says it makes bigger heavier flowers and more bud sites. Well I'm still waiting on the bigger heavier part. LOL!

What do you mean by micro?

I typed up a huge response to this and the system had already logged me out because typing took so long. I hate that and I also hate the periodic maintenance this board goes through for days at a time. What the hell is going on?

You can use distilled water instead of r/o if you want.
Mature plant ppm is usually around 1100 or so.
botanicare bloom is short on phosphorus. They sell you the "remedy" with Hydroplex, probably to get more money out of you.
Dynagrow makes good one-part ferts with all micro nutrients in single containers, one for veg, one for bloom.
What do you think of botanicare so far?
You want a ppm/ph meter if you can get it.
micro nutes are boron, sulphur, etc. needed in small amounts.

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Originally Posted by bronc76

What do you mean by micro?

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Micro-nutrients = calcium, magnesium, iron, manganese, zinc, etc.

I'd a gotten back to ya sooner if the site hadn't been down for the last two weeks. How's your grow going? Did you divide your tent after all?

Nothing wrong with hydroplex. It gives you an added amount of P and K. Botanicare does this because they know that P is a catalyst for growth during flowering. With less P in your bloom formula and more in the hydroplex, you can compare to find out if hydroplex actually adds to your yield or not by using it one grow and not the next.....

CGI::::::