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just started my first indoor grow- been doing it outside since 1972- got a lot to learn for-sure I have started my seeds , sprouting today- I have them under a 1k MH , I am able to maintain a 72 degree temp 24 inches from tops- should I be running a 20 on 4 off for now- or should I be doing a 16 on 8 off then switch to 20-4 after roots are established- googled this ? and got a bunch of different opinions on using MH at this stage, it is what I have for now HELP !:thumbsup:
Just pick a light schedule and stick to it. Otherwise you stress the plants and risk hermies. Opinions vary on what is best. Some people run 24/0 some 20/4, and some 18/6. 18/6 is what is most widely recommended.Quote:
Originally Posted by littlemountain
I'm interested to hear from others the benefits of running the longer lights on schedules. Obviously the plants get more light but is there a sacrifice? The plants need lights out for certain processes, no? I have read that there is little benefit to running longer light schedules. I run 18/6 due to heat issues and electricity use.
Im popping 6 WW under CFLs 24/0 right now. 2 days and I have at least 1 coming up so far:thumbsup:
High littlemountain...:thumbsup:
we just plowed this field, last week :http://boards.cannabis.com/plant-pro...ml#post2158362
Hey Dutch , I do rememeber some of our discussion on times, computer crashed and I lost all saved info on my desktop.I like your metaphor of plowed field-unfortunetly because of these fucking pain meds I am on, I trip in the furrows a lot-and get stuck in the mud- nice having another old farm boy out there-Just left grow room and all 17 seeds showing their green already- started germination on the 16th - don't you love a full moonQuote:
Originally Posted by Dutch Pimp
yes, I do...:detective1:...like a full moon
this is a pic from the one, last month
I have used 18/6 and 24/0 on seedlings and have never really seen a difference.
You know you can use just a regular CFL bulb to light your seedlings right? 1000w for seedlings is kind of overkill if you ask me. Plus you save money until they are ready for that giant bulb.
Only real difference being that with 18/6 plant will show their preflower / sex more quickly. In other words, they mature more quickly. That and your electric bills will be lower!
With seedlings, I usually go with 24 hour lighting with a nice soft fluorescent light until the seedlings have built up their third set of leaves then I change over to 18 on and 6 off. Although 24 hour lighting is perfectly safe during the seedling stage. :thumbsup:
There has been long debate on this issue and I personally think 18/6 is better then 24/0. The obvious reason, a savings in $$ on your electric bill. The other reason is after watching MJ grow indoors in my controlled environment for a very long time, you can observe very subtle but obvious behaviors of the plant. Roughly 2 hours before lights out, my plants start to droop in anticipation for the dark period. Roughly 2 hours before lights on, they perk back up in anticipation for the light period. The reason this happens, since the plant is not Photosynthesizing, it is taking all stored energy (sugars) from the day and moving them to the stem and down to the roots. Though roots grow 24/7, they do a majority of their growing in the dark. From my OWN experience, if you want a strong healthy plant with a strong rootball, a dark period is key. Of course, in 5 minutes somebody here will come along and totally disagree and give their own take. Here is a picture I took of a plant that was only in a 3 gallon container from a 16oz solo cup for SEVEN days. You tell me if this is healthy accelerated root growth or not? :thumbsup:
GTD
roots do all the work and get no credit...:wtf:
Totally believable. My biggest plant I have is in 18/6, and just started to show pistils and alternating branches the other day. I bet in 24/0, I wouldnt see any for a long time. Maybe 24/0 would be good for mother plants..?Quote:
Originally Posted by bigsby
Im curious to hear more from 24/0 photoperiod growers as well. Id like to hear some stories. haha.
18/6.. Because you will setting yourself up for them to be root-bound before time.
Hello GreenThumbDoc,Quote:
Originally Posted by GreenThumbDoc
I made a promise to myself not to get envolved with the 18/6 vs. 24/0 ever again. This subject used to get kicked around here every few months, now it's every few weeks if not days. IMHO the photoperiod used during vegative growth is more a personal matter, ie: what work's best for the grower in thier particular grow. Even Raphael Mechoulan, the grandfather of cannabinoid reseach, had to do experiments on this subject to prove to colleagues and critics, when they found him using 24/0 vegative growth in some of his studies. He did not show which was better but that 24/0 "did no harm" to the plant and it could go on to flower just like any other photoperiod plant.
But you have made some statement's that defy what I have learned, read in textbooks or scientific papers as to roots and to a plant's funtion.
About 4 years ago now, I enrolled in a local community college as a senior citizen to take a horticultural course, that led to a few more. I had a professor from Rutger's Univ. who I've quoted here before but will repeat now, he stated "While roots grow in the dark, they don't grow WHEN it is dark". In other words roots grow during photosysntheis not during the dark period. It is true that at the root cap, cell division continues during the dark phase, but it is making basically a lubricant (cell layers) for when the main or tap root goes back to growing.
If you would be so kind to steer me to or cite a source for your theroy that roots grow in the dark I would appreciate it, because I don't want to be the one to pass on bad information.
OM
Well I am not going to get into a pissing match with ya oldmac, or go into what credentials I have to of made my comment, because on the net, everyone is good looking and highly educated, remember? As for sources, I can simply cite one here on this own website.Quote:
Originally Posted by oldmac
Text
During the day, (Lights ON) the plant is collecting and storing light energy, and is using and storing raw materials. The plant is stockpiling raw material, and is charging itâ??s batteriesâ?¦ it is ALSO using raw materials and using the energy it is collecting. Itâ??s building itself, literally putting itself together.
During the day however, the plant is not as efficient at building itself, as it is at night (lights OFF.) It can build itself, but not as quickly.
While the lights are OFF, the plant is using energy and raw materials to build itselfâ?¦. the plant is more efficiently using the raw materials that it stored during the day. The plant is better at transporting and assembling the raw materials.
I didn't want to over complicate things or go into "Dark Reaction" but if you want more technical references, here is a good read:
PHOTOSYNTHESIS
GTD
Hey 'Doc,
I am/was not trying to get into a pissing match with you or asked you about your credentials to grow or make statements. I explained what I was taught and what I have read and I asked you nicely, I thought, to steer me to info on roots growing during the dark phase. I should have edited "or a plants function" cause as I was writing the post I had to re-read what you had written (at my age my reading comprehension is poor sometimes) and realized it was just an oversimplification I did not understand initially. That is way I did not ask you to cite a source for that. Tho you did anyway. :wtf:
The text that you linked, the second paragraph says and I quote;
Many times I've seen posts that "roots grow during the dark". If this was true, the 24/0 photoperiod would result in a plant with a tiny root structure if one at all! We know this is not the case-so how does it actually work?
I've used this same analogy, just recently on another thread. My contention was if roots grow in the dark, how do cuttings make roots, using the accepted 24/0 photoperiod for clonning?
[OK now get ready for my snarky comment]
I admit my reading comprehension is poor at times, but I got an excuse....I'm old. What's yours? :D
[that was just a joke, lighten up]
I look upon these forums as a place to exchange ideas. Ususally it winds up just answering some pretty dumb questions but many threads are actual intelligent conversations. Lately there have been fewer of those.
OM
GreenThumb....
If I were you I would consider myself very lucky to have not been hammered by OM. That was a pretty coarse statement on your part. He definately was not looking to get into a pissing match....but you might have started one. I hope not.
In this debate often there is merit on both sides of the 18/6 or 24hr light periord...
So I throw out the high & low and go with 20/4 from day one to bloom...
They also say plants do not grow in the dark and I'm not to sure about that either. I have two Males under 12/12, T-5's, 1" from the lights at night and every morning there into the lights. So if there not growing there stretching 1" every night, so somethings going on...
At the end of the day all three time sets work, MJ is very adaptable to there current environment...
Hey there WashougalWonder,
I guess I need to work on a more tacfull way of saying, your're wrong. :wtf:
The only reason I did not go off on GTD with his responce to me, was the vaporizer was loaded and on and within easy reach. :thumbsup: It would be nice if he showed up here again, and admit he was wrong about root growth. An apology is optional.
Just the other day I was reading a thread on another board when someone corrected the same misstatement, and least 5 jerks stepped up to say they KNEW roots grow in the dark, but the only reference they could cite was "I read it on/in a post...somewhere". I wasn't looking to start anything with GTD but I did not want to see more bad info spread around.
OM
Hello ZZTops,
That "growth" you see is not actually new vegatation, some of it is due to stalk or stem stretch after the lights go off. Plus plants during the dark phase up take a lot of water (and nutrients with it) that they store in thier leaves and stems for the next photoperiod this adds to stem stretch.
In farming it is refered to as the "corn" effect. Corn often is said to look like it has grown inches overnight, when in reality there was no new vegative growth, just those big stalks stretching and holding lots of water. :)
OM
Thanks OldMac, that make since...
It's not as noticeable with the females but the males drink twice as much as the females so they like to stretch...
Also in my hydro set up I cycle every 3 hours around the clock, so say it's a waste but I find the plants really like it...
First off, it is fairly presumptious of you to call me wrong when I have given you TWO references for plant growth at night, one directly from this site. Secondly, I took you to task on your original response to me as it had obvious patronizing overtones. It is naive on your part to ASSUME all patrons of this forum are uneducated pot smoking fools. I am all for open debate and considering others opinions on a wide variety of subjects. However, it appears your word is the gospel. I didn't realize taking one course from a community college several years ago makes you an expert in this field, my apologies. As for me being thankful for somebody not going off on me on an internet forum in a medium of anonymity, I find this quite humorous. I simply came here to share my experiences and knowledge with others that may benefit from it. There are plenty of other sites that come across as more welcoming, and I have no issues going there instead.Quote:
Originally Posted by oldmac
GTD
Nice info there oldmac. :thumbsup:
This makes me wonder if you could help control stretch during flower by limiting it's water at lights out?
Is this one of the reasons why in ebb&flow some don't flood during lights out, but do so right before lights out?
:detective1:
As for the scientific reason why plants DO grow at night, here you go:
[align=left]During the daytime, plants produce energy in the form of ATP and NADPH (light reactions)...during the night, these energy forms go to the dark reactions (Calvin Cycle) to fuel the production of organic molecules from CO2 collected during the day...some of these organic molecules will be stored (starch) and some will be used for plant structural growth (cellulose), and some for other organic molecules (lipids, proteins, etc).[/align]
[align=left]GTD[/align]
I'm a noob grower, on only my 3rd grow, but because of the idea of 24/0=more growth. I started seeds on 24/0 and was unimpressed by their growth. After 3 weeks, I switched back to 18/6 and within two days noticed a lot of new growth that has continued since going back to 18/6. I might have accidentally timed the switch during or just before a natural growth spurt, idk, but I do know they are happily growing up into fine young ladies(I hope) now.
Here is more scientific data to back up plant growth at night (with references). Thanks for playing!
Biologists Identify Genes Controlling Rhythmic Plant Growth
While most people might assume that plants grow at a slow and steady rate throughout the day and night, Darwin and others found that they grow in regular nightly spurts, with plant stems elongating fastest in the hours just before dawn. See video of soybean sprout growth at: http://www.biology.ucsd.edu/scicomm/video/bigbeansprout.mov
"Plants actually grow rhythmically," said Kay. "Some plants, like sorghum, have the ability to elongate a centimeter or more each night."
Why plants have evolved mechanisms to grow rhythmically at night or in the hours just before dawn is a mystery. But a similar interplay of light sensing, plant hormones and circadian rhythms that leads to a pronounced rhythmic growth by plants during certain seasons and when shaded by other plants has a clear survival value.
GTD
From what I understand from reading both of your posts is, in a way you're both right.
The both of you stated that at night the stem grows or "stretches". Due to its biologic adaption for survival. Meaning, grow taller to ensure it wins the battle for light.
Both of you in way or another has said that new foliage does not grow at night.
So I interpret this as there is no new foliage growth, due to the plant using all it's stored energy to grow/stretch the stem.
With that said, you would assume that the roots also do not grow at night, because all the plants energy is focused on the stem.
This makes since to me since I've seen a lot of posts around here about when going to 12/12 the plant stretches and root growth slows down.
But hey what do I know
That's just my :twocents:
I started the ones I have going now with FF OF in cups. And let them go with the rest of the harem 24/7. Under the T5 they are doing fine in my opinion. No nutes for a month straight water, and let the girls be girls (hopefully they all are all ladies, but I need a stud to do some hanky panky with a momma!! :D). I might, just to see the reaction nute stress them a little after the third or fourth node. These two were just moved from cups. :cool:
AHA!!! I may just be heavily medicated from smoking some of the last of my Trainwreck(EXCELLENT first-time strain to grow-imho) right now, but I think I may have just come up with a possible solution to those "great debates" on cannabis. This is the idea I plan on running with from now on. It won't put the debates to rest, since opinions and science often clash, BUT from now on, while I will still seek opinions and advice on ideas or concepts that are new to me, I will(as much as possible) use a large rubbermaid tub or small closet/cabinet and simply implement this new idea into that 1 plant. Proof is best found independently, again imo. So come JAN1, when I move to my new home with the extra bedroom that my beautiful, understanding, loving wife has so graciously allowed me to designate as my new grow room, Each new grow will be accompanied by an informative thread, open for discussion, where I will post results.
I already have a few experiments in mind and it will take time to accumulate info. However, once up and running, I am planning a monthly harvest so the info gathering should pick up pace.
Great idea! :thumbsup: Looking forward to following up with you on it.Quote:
Originally Posted by budlover13
Agreed... One mans Growth is another mans stretch...:)
Love the Darwin quote GTDoc...:thumbsup:
Wow, someone was busy doing some research, and that's always a good thing.
Before I go thru all these posts of DGT, I want to appoligize to the OP, mountianview for the clutter created here and hijscking the thread. Hope you don't mind since the thread is now a month old, I think. This topic of 24/0 vs 18/6 has been so beat to death.
I'd also like to thank ZZTops, budlover13, gypski and others for particating in the more interesting parts here or even staying OT. Special thanks to Tikiroom for trying to be a peacemaker.
I don't have a whole lot of fight in me this evening, I spent the afternoon and evening visiting exisiting patients that are in hospice care and a new patient from the cancer group that really has me bummed out. A mid-thirties single mom with 4 young children, ages 5-14 who was just given the diagnosis of pancreatic cancer last week and is to start chemo wed. This put's what is important in perspective.
The quote that you used from the TEXT you linked from here is a very simple explanation of a plant's function. As I already pointed out the second paragraph, highlighted in blue on 1st page/ my second post, is the complete opposite of your theroy of "roots grow 24/7".Quote:
Originally Posted by GreenThumbDoc
The part that you qouted above does not refer to any root or plant growth, when it refers to a plant "building itself" it is not talking about growth but the processes that take's place internally. This is just a simple explanation of the 2nd link posted here PHOTOSYNTHESIS. Which by it's very definition is a process that takes place during the photoperiod.
Why not get into "Dark Reaction's", that is what we were taliking abt, roots growing during the dark period. This is also refered to as "light independent functions", and if you read it, deals with the Calvin Cycle which is how a plant processes carbon fixation, and the chemical reactions it involves. But again it does not mention any plant growth below or above ground level during the dark phase.:(
OM
Hey oldmac, idk where you live, but is it possible for you to help me set up a service like the one you provide, but in my area?
I have my own plan, but you have a couple years experience on me and I as well as the locals would love to pick up your torch.
I really did not want to get into this with you, but I'll reserve my final opinion of you till after I've had a chance tommrow to read and respond to the rest of your post's here. It's the least I can do, it seems you put some effort into it.Quote:
Originally Posted by GreenThumbDoc
OM
Possibly, I'll talk to you tomorrow. I mean later on today, geez where does the time go, oh I know I lost a post before and just had to re do it.Quote:
Originally Posted by budlover13
OM
Yep, momma just said it wa time for bed here too(11:23pm pst). That is first and foremost 'cause if momma's not happy, nobody is happy! I'll check in first thing tomorrow! Thank you!:thumbsup::jointsmile:Quote:
Originally Posted by oldmac
P.S, OM, if you're on FB or would like to support the movement(which you obviously do) there is a group called the Teapot Party tenvisioned by Willie himself.
I've always like Willie, my Dad used to when he was cleancut and wore a suit. After he truthfully bared his soul, my father couldn't stand him. Actually, I thank my Dad for that because he pushed me to listen.
Hey there Budlover13,
I see that you are in Cali, so it presents a logistical problem. I have recently started a "mentor" program, where I'll design and produce a grow system based on aero or aero/fog grow trays and some form of lighting set-up. I then teach the recpient how to grow using what I built and/or designed (the recpient pays for the parts used etc). This also includes cuttings or more usually plant starts so they have plant material for mom's etc.
Unless you are in a county that uses sqft/canopy to gauge size of the permitted grow and not plant count my method of SOG, put's it in the illegal catergory in a legal state.
I'm in a not mmj state in the NE, had some snow this AM, but nothing like the midwest had been hit with. I am close enought to travel to NJ and RI that have gone/going mmj. It's just too bad they seem to want to use plant counts.
My philosophy of growing indoors has been; indoors using any form of artifical lighting, the most productive way to grow is SOG. If you've seen my album showing the construction of "fogfognugen" or the thread I indroduced the first experiment run of it, each tray is 136 plants or 276 per/foggy. In the partnered grow I am envolved in there are now 2 fogfognugen's going in the same room, 1 using TI LED lights and the other PSMHs. From a legal perspective, I maintain that as long as each tray has cuts from one clone mother source then that tray is really just 1 plant with 138 branches. Biologically there is no way to prove different, tho my lawyer says that probably would not hold up in court. But I've been so illegal for so long I don't know if I care.
BTW, Willie has been a great advocate for mmj, just hope the last bust in Texas goes well for him.
OM