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After Ca. blowing it BIG Time last Tuesday, Colorado shouldn't make the same mistakes. What is the plan to legalize it here for 2012?
What are some of the strongest objections to legalizing it that we get and what are the best answers you've heard to overcome those objections?
Anyone?
i hear it is a gateway drug
regular pot won't be legal ANYWHERE till big business can have legislative and hence regulatory control to cut everyone out of the profit. period. You can expect a parade of shitty legislation state after state just like California's 19
I hear that it's a gateway drug too.Quote:
Originally Posted by canaguy27
I ask people if they had their 1st hit of smoke before they had their 1st sip of alcohol?
Then I ask them if they had more pot or alcohol prior to age 21?
I never have people answer pot!
I wonder what it would take to legalize the use and posession but keep the sale illegal. As an adult, how can the government tell me what I can and cannot put in MY body?Quote:
Originally Posted by HarvestHouse
Where are the "Keep your laws off of my body" crowd now?
What business is it of the government if I want to grow, and smoke my own personal MJ without buying it or selling it. I don't see how the government can tax it successfully like tobacco since we can easily obtain seeds and grow it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptGanjaMan
there is nobody to lobby for it if nobody is making money off of it. It will sit an idle dream until we wrestle the power away from the corporations that run the show via governmental proxy.
bummer that it is. when corps have the rights of people, people loose.
Ignore the naysayers. Change in this country is incremental. The only shitty thing about P19 was that it didn't pass. I can't wait to have the opportunity to vote on shitty legislation that makes cultivation, use and possession legal. We'll get there if we keep on truckin'.
(As the election nears, we'll have the pleasurably vindictive task of sorting out and exposing MMCs, caregivers and other commercial growers who oppose our ballot measure.)
I'm an MMC and I'm all for freeing the plant. A $50 tax per ounce is NOT freeing the plant. I will be against ANY ballot measure that takes the power from the people and puts it in the hands of big business. 1284 fucked everyone but people positioned well with deep pockets. Don't let any of our "so called" advocate lawyers write the measure if you don't want another NEW good old boy fucking.Quote:
Originally Posted by HighPopalorum
I'll quit pot before I smoke a "Marley"
Good to know. And volunteers from SAFER and NORML like me will be standing on the sidewalk in front of your store carrying signs and explaining to your patients that you oppose the 2012 legalization measure. If they come inside, you can explain your more nuanced position.Quote:
Originally Posted by HarvestHouse
Of course, there's no ballot measure as yet, so this is kind of a straw man. Still, I think MMCs, commercial growers and their assorted lickspittles who oppose legalization should be publicly castigated. I'm looking forward to it.
is there proposed language for this legislation out there somewhere? now is the time it should be being criticized and changed.
you threaten to protest at a company just cause I refuse to let big business furthur legislate and re-regulate pot. I bet my business would get better and the BIG <fill in the blank> BUSINESS that funded it would be huge and they will limit and tax your relationship with the plant.Quote:
Originally Posted by HighPopalorum
.....just voting pro-pot could be voting for expensive pot, could be voting for restrictive pot.......... just read well before you vote. I don't think any initiative that could pass will be what we want. I'm not gonna trade one thing I don't want for just another thing I don't want.
when pot is legalized only oulaws will have kind bud. betcha.
If mmj growers prefer to keep mj illegal and medical only, I think you are morally bankrupt and no better than any other corporation that is only in it to make the most money possible. You pretty much have to condone the drug war and realize your profits are on the backs of those who have had their lives ruined by the war on drugs. Keeping Cannabis "Medical Only" is the most greedy, self-serving crap I have ever heard.
I don't care if people want to smoke Marlboro Greens. There will be plenty of other people who will want something better... both box wine and over $100 a bottle wine sells. Let corporations commercialize it, I don't really give a shit.... if people didn't want to buy their products they would go out of business. If people feel like their product is a good value to them let them have that choice.
Honestly, I'm just not worried about it, change is inevitable, that's the only thing you can count on.
Dorje113-----> I'm not saying keep pot medical, I'm saying if we aren't careful we will end up with something that "less empowers the people"
At this point we need to work on keeping MMC open and get these running smoothly and then go from there being that we were fucked in may by everyone.We would all love to see it be legal but Harvest House is right at this point. Peace :vap_smiley:
Quote:
Originally Posted by HarvestHouse
I wasn't responding to you in particular.... I can understand people who want it legalized but don't want to see it commercialized, in fact I agree. But, this is the USA so you can't expect that big business won't exploit cannabis to make as much money as possible. All I'm saying is that voting "no" on a legalization measure to prevent commercialization will keep it illegal forever. An end to the war on cannabis is far more important that keeping Phillip Morris out of the cannabis business. In fact, having normal businesses in it will only help the consumer by driving prices down. I am all for lowering the prices on mj, even though I do grow for a mmc. Eventually it will be like homebrewing.... some do it because they like to, but nobody does it becasue they can sell a 6-pack for $50. I see the cannabis biz in the same way and as soon as the legal issues disappear we will see how much it is really worth. And then all the profiteers and douchebags can go find another scam. I look forward to that day....
I don't think the protest would stick very well in front of HH.
We do need the RIGHT legislation. I won't vote for just anything.
I would love to see whats under current consideration if anyone has a link
"Marijuana possession and cultivation are no longer a crime"
"All who are incarcerated for possession alone shall be freed"
It is safer (less lethal/addictive) than coffee. Safer (less lethal/addictive) than water. It should be legal the same way grapes are...not regulated like killers - tobacco or alcohol. Anything other than this is not true legalization. Cali's bill was just lip service and still made it illegal in many situations to grow this plant. Its just a plant, and the law should reflect that. Less dangerous than missletoe. If someone wants to grow for hemp, then that should be allowed as well. The emporer wears no clothes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dorje113
So you would like it so that companies like Phillip Morris add chemicals to keep the weed burning, add other addictive chemicals to get people hooked, and pay over a 300% tax? Not to mention you can bet these companies would push for legislation for harsher penalties for growing. I would never support any legalization effort that gave any corporation the keys to the marijuana world OR came with a hefty tax and that is exactly why it didnt pass in Cali.
No, but who are you to say what other people can and can't do? If a company wants to mass produce mj cigs let them. Just like tobacco, some will buy chemical-laden product and some will opt for organic. Do you think you should be able to choose what people buy?Quote:
Originally Posted by Zedleppelin
The fact is, this is a capitalist economy. You cannot limit what other people do, and to want cannabis to be illegal in order to control others actions simply is not worth the trade off. Illegal = Drug War. To prefer a drug war over a free economy is horrible and wrong.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dorje113
If you truly believe this is how the real world works you are sadly mistaken and I can only surmise you are fresh out of school with little real life experience. Obviously you learned very little from 1284 and have no problem with money influencing law. I will take decriminalization any day over corporate control. No way in hell did I and many others pay the price the last three decades fighting for and using a product just to enrich a few that have up until recently fought to keep it illegal, and yes I have the battle scars to prove it. Do you?
decriminalization is the only way to go.
legalization in all its forms will end up making the average "joe pot grower" a white collar criminal or some other criminal. It will end up ending a culture.
I'm sure the farm implements are already patented. You all bitch and moan about mites and powdery mildew and dispensaries that don't "care".
If you think the combine cowboy harvesting your "marleys" gives a fuck about some stoner/patient. You think genetically engineered BIG BUD will be good medicine? Oh yeah hand me a hit of that "round up ready" kush.......... cough, cough.
scenario: 1/4 section of "medical marijuana" out on the plains has an infestation of powdery mildew. do you think that farmer will throw his hands up and say 'oh well"? Fuck no. He will dump anything legal on that medicine to save his crop. ......mmmmm, now that's good medicine.
I still say that when pot is legalized and not decriminalized, only outlaws will have the KB's
In my humble opinion we need Decriminalization, like Pseudo Legalization.
My reason for that is we need the government to keep the hands of OUR herb and not turn it into another government controlled commodity/crop!!
A large amount of Cali medical growers I know were very happy that Prop19 didn't pass for various reason but mainly for my above comment.
Another Great Post HH.....:thumbsup:Quote:
Originally Posted by HarvestHouse
I started growing in '93 and have had issues with the law twice. That is why I believe ending the drug war is more important than anything. I do not believe ending the drug war can happen unless it is legal. If it is legal, large corporations will be able to farm it just like any other crop.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zedleppelin
Also, Zed... stop putting words in my mouth and assuming you know me or anything about me. The fact you think I'm ok with having money influence law and 1284 is insulting and ridiculous. The fact is I support a position that would directly have a negative impact on my income... because I think it is the right thing to do. I think you believe what you do for mostly selfish reasons.
Another FACT. If it is legal and grown large scale there's nothing to stop small scale quality producers.... and if you can't hang you're going to get left out. I think a lot of people are afraid they won't be able to produce a high enough quality product in a competitive marketplace and this influences their position.
And who's forcing people to buy PM infested bud or bud that has pesticides applied inappropriately?Quote:
Originally Posted by HarvestHouse
The FACT is, it's a huge problem right NOW!
The FACT is, from what I've seen we NEED the DOR to regulate grows because there is so much fungus-infested and pesticide-contaminated bud being produced right NOW, and being sold to PATIENTS in DISPENSARIES.
While there are plenty of good growers and good MMCs there are also plenty of profiteers who have no problem selling bad product to patients, and when it is legal they will have to find a new occupation because they will be forced out of the cannabis biz.
If you guys think things are good as they are right now you need to get your head out of the sand.
in no way do I think things are great in Denver. I know for a fact that there are TONS of dangerous/moldy pot in Denver. Hence the plethora of BHO products. I sell pot in a community that I've lived in since the late 90's. I don't go in any shops down below so maybe things are worse than I realize. I can't imagine commercial ag grown pot being safer in reality.
If it is truly legal, as in it is no longer a crime to cultivate or possess, then there is no way to turn any grower into a criminal. very simple. It only works if there is full legalization though. Adding limitations such as plant counts, limiting the space or age are all things that will create a black market and thus create criminals out of ordinary people.Quote:
Originally Posted by HarvestHouse
We have yet to see a true legalization bill anywhere in america. Cali's bill was decriminalization under the guise of legalization, not true legalization.
Dorje speaks for me. No reason to post.
When the election gets closer, I will surely maintain the Traitor's List. Hopefully, we can get it stickied so no patient who reads this board will mistakenly purchase from a caregiver or MMC who opposes legalization. I vote not only in the ballot box, but with my wallet and every other patient should do the same; on this issue and on others. Commercial growers who vote for continued persecution of marijuana users should be publicly held up as the hypocritical assholes they are. Period. I think we should make a list of caregivers and dispensaries who are fighting legalization and then give the list to prisoners who are currently incarcerated for using or selling marijuana. Maybe if some of these owners and managers could read the stories of the real victims of the drug war it would convince them to change their minds. Maybe not.
We've seen commercial growers fight against public regulation for themselves - they were quite active on both sides of the 1284 debate. Now we will see which of them are willing to fight for the right of every adult Coloradan to grow and use marijuana. The MMJ industry should be as strong a support for legalization as MMJ patients are. I want to see donations. I want to see benefit events. Most of all, I want to see the petition in the front office of every dispensary in the state. Folks, this issue is going to show us which commercial operators are our friends, and which ones are only pretending to be in order to get our money.
(Can you see the holy roller glow in my eyes? MJ legalization is the closest I get to religious zeal. If we shut our mouths and let the naysayers walk all over us, marijuana will never be legal, and the blatant injustice of incarcerating innocent pot users will continue. We have a chance to strike a blow for justice in the ballot box, and I for one will work hard to make sure it's a heavy one.)
Legalization will come (eventually,but not in 2012, unfortunately) incrementally or not at all, no matter what we want. It is the nature of our present political system. As to all the complaints about regulation rather than a complete lack thereof, you are at least 70 years too late. Not that I disagree, but since the New Deal and the Supreme Court decisions thereunder that basically invalidated the 9th and 10th amendments, that's a dead letter. Tilt away, all of you Dons Quixote, welcome to my world.
HighPopalorum------> I'm not fighting legalization. I want pot growing everywhere....... but I won't support legislation/initiatives that empower big biz and the man . keep your list. fuck you. when the real list of who did what is written, remember that I was the first to sell top shelf pot for $200-250 max. since april. Given away over a thousand clones of Cherry Lime and other clones. Sold as low as 100 an oz, Given away pounds to needy Nederland folks. I'm building a purpose building to grow in out of pocket........ and still committed to keeping my prices at $250 max.
1284 was bullshit. the next serving they give us will be shit to. If you don't mind eating shit, go ahead, take what's being served.
It's the peoples plant, I've bent over backwards for it, given up all of my non-able to be made "kosher" grows, given up ALL of my privacy, all my money, and working my ass off to provide the folks good medicine at real prices. I have dozens of elite clones in house now, free non-propriatary cuts to all patients.
I think I'm one of the good ones. If you come into my shop with out enough cash, I bet you walk out of Harvest House with what you need.
High Popa'whatever, what have you done. What are you doing to help.
boycott me, protest me. I bet you just look like an asshole in front of my shop........ with the new handicapped ramp we just put in.
:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup: HH
No threats, HH, but you're wrong! A Colorado version of P19 will make it legal for us all to grow and use marijuana. I won't boycott your shop because I live in SWCO and don't get up to Denver often. Still, you should think about the people MJ prohibition hurts, and not only those who might profit from legalization. I don't think you're mean, or intentionally trying to be injust, but it's wrong. We might disagree on the details of legalization, but that's all political B.S. Any liberalization of marijuana (or any other damned drug) is a good thing. I realize that your intentions are as good as mine, but you're only hurting marijuana users when you vote for their continued arrest. From the perspective of someone who does not sell marijuana, it seems hypocritical.
Harvest House, I have a lot of respect for you and you're stance on the bullshit legislation. There are very few places producing affordable meds that are also quality. I went to the farm in Boulder a while ago to check out their $250 oz deals and it reaked of schwag. With less than half the medical value, their $250 deal is more like $500 and you have to smoke a joint to catch a buzz. I'll definitely swing by and give you my support. I tried checking you out a few weeks ago but you open so late! hahah. I ended up going to GM for a $90 1/4, with tiny stress seeds. Nothing like opening up a calyx and seeing a pin head seed. Seeya soon brother. :jointsmile:
HH, I think your intentions are good but I think you need to realize there will have to be a compromise... for example alcohol is legal and regulated, you cannot distill or produce beer/wine for sale in your own home. But nobody cares about these limitations, homebrewers do it because they like beer, not because they are trying to make money. Eventually mj will be like that too... legalization will put an end to the profiteering and, IMO, greatly reduce the amount of dangerous "medical" mj currently being produced. But this can't happen without big business getting in on the act. There is going to be the budweiser of buds but that doesn't mean our culture or ability to produce and sell high quality weed will be destroyed as well. It does mean that prices will drop but that's ok. I really think the basis for decisions like this need to be what will reduce suffering the most.
Not everyone is trying to accomplish the same thing obviously. What is the goal? To make money, be able to grow your own legally, end mj prohibition, or end the drug war altogether?? These are all distinctly different levels of dissent against the current policies. Its interesting that finally the current attitude/laws are changing and yet we cant figure out what we want, or just cant make it happen.
I personally see the money as a side effect byproduct of this fight, the legal/prison system is trying to make money off me and I am making money because of them, and while its naive to say it has no bearing on motivation, it is by far not the point of the battle. The real power lies in political and social change towards true freedom. A big effect of this freedom is that the black market - and therefore profits, must diminish. A small price to pay considering the amount of money and time people have spent incarcerated (POWs) because of this war against american citizens. Hasnt the point been this whole time to legalize the plant entirely? Where did the movement get lost?
Another thing... right now instead of Marleys or Marlboro Greens produced by Phillip Morris we have huge gangs of organized crime growing weed all over the world.
The Vietnamese have set up warehouses all over the world:
Pictured: Britain's biggest cannabis farm... with £2m worth of weed | Mail Online
Mexican Mafia sets up huge od grows that are dangerous to anyone passing by and likely do a lot of environmental damage. Right here in the front range we had 1000's of plants taken out of the national forest just west of Lyons.
Lately, I have heard reports from Europe of bad weed being sprayed with glass or metal shavings to give it bag appeal.
If I had a choice between a mass produced but "natural" mj cig and the stuff organized crime puts out I think I'll go with the Marley.
So there's another reason to legalize, and I'd argue that having cig companies produce Marleys is better than what we have now.
A summary of reasons we need to legalize despite the FACT that when it is, there will be regulations on it just like there are on alcohol:
1. End the Drug War
2. Allow the farming of industrial hemp
3. Put organized crime and other profiteers out of the cannabis business
4. Control the rampant distribution of unsafe marijuana
IMO, these are the real goals and other stuff like mj culture and mj lifestyle and having an artificially inflated income are far down the list of what I care about.
This did happen but it was a while ago and from my peeps in the UK it was pretty much a one time thing. One doesn't get too many repeat customers that way. I believe the rumor is that the crew that did that pretty much got their door kicked in & the crap beat out of them by former customers & also some other dealers before they were reported to the Bobbys. Serves them right. Karma's a bitch sometimes!Quote:
Originally Posted by Dorje113