Jack Had A Dream, Dennis has a Voice, And it was No...Please Read this b-4 you Bash..

Proponents of California's Regulate Control and Tax Cannabis 2010 Initiative (Prop. 19) claim it will have no effect on California's medical marijuana laws, that it "explicitly upholds the rights of medical marijuana patients".
The language of the initiative says otherwise. Russ Belville stated in a comment to his blog in The Huffington Post that "Prop 19 does nothing to change Prop 215 or your access to your current dispensary." Belville is NORML's Outreach Coordinator and Host of NORML Show Live.
Meanwhile, in an article that is causing quite a stir among proponents of ending marijuana prohibition, Dragonfly De La Luz lists 18 reasons "Pro-Pot Activists" oppose Prop. 19.

Regarding whether or not Prop. 19 will amend or supersede California's medical marijuana laws she had this to say:
"While amendments were made ostensibly to prevent the initiative from affecting current medical marijuana law, a careful reading of the initiative reveals that this is not, in fact, the case. Certain medical marijuana laws are exempt from the prohibitions the initiative would enact, while others are glaringly absent.
Cultivation is one such law that is noticeably non-exempt. In spite of the fact that the tax cannabis Web site says otherwise, the only medical marijuana exemptions that the Regulate, Control and Tax Cannabis Initiative actually makes are with regard to possession, consumption and purchase limits. Which only ensure that patients would still be allowed to buy medicine at dispensaries. The word â??cultivateâ?� is conspicuously absent. Whereas today a person with a doctorâ??s recommendation has the right to grow up to an unlimited number of plants, the initiative would drastically reduce that number to whatever can fit in a 5â??x5â?? footprint (around 3-6 plantsâ??per property, not per person).This will force many patients to resort to buying instead of growing their own medicine, because of the inconvenience caused by producing multiple grows a year rather than growing a yearâ??s supply of medicine at one time, as many patients currently do outdoors. And growing indoorsâ??which typically requires special grow lights, an increase in hydro use, and a lot of time and attentionâ??is a comparatively expensive endeavor." :mad:

The initiative would further impact medical marijuana patients by banning medicating in the privacy of their own homes if there are minors present, as well as in public (currently perfectly legal[18])â??an invaluable liberty to those with painful diseases or extreme anxiety (like me)who would otherwise have to suffer until they got home to relieve their ailments.
Finally, the medical marijuana laws that are exempted from this initiative apparently only apply to cities. For medical marijuana patients who live in an area that has county or local government jurisdiction, according to a strict reading of the initiative, medical marijuana laws are not exempt.

The amendments she refers to were made after Comparing California cannabis/marijuana legalization initiatives was published 31 Jul 09 in Examiner.com. This article noted that the proponents of Proposition 19 had managed to get through 14 drafts without exempting medical marijuana patients from any of its provisions: not the unlimited taxes & licensing fees, not the possession & cultivation limits, not the prohibition on smoking in public or in sight of anyone under 18.
The amendments consisted of adding the phrase "except as permitted under Health and Safety Sections 11362.5 and 11362.7 through 11362.9" to the end of Items 7 & 8 under Purposes.
The initiative mentions medical marijuana three times and omits mentioning it once.
The Mentions
The three mentions are Items 6, 7, and 8 in Section 2, B. Purposes.
6. Provide easier, safer access for patients who need cannabis for medical purposes.

The courts will determine that this means Prop. 19 is intended to amend and supersede California's medical marijuana laws: Proposition 215 (H&S 11362.5) and SB 420 (H&S 11362.7-H&S 11362.9).
7. Ensure that if a city decides not to tax and regulate the sale of cannabis, that buying and selling cannabis within that cityâ??s limits remain illegal, but that the cityâ??s citizens still have the right to possess and consume small amounts, except as permitted under Health and Safety Sections 11362.5 and 11362.7 through 11362.9.

8. Ensure that if a city decides it does want to tax and regulate the buying and selling of cannabis (to and from adults only), that a strictly controlled legal system is implemented to oversee and regulate cultivation, distribution, and sales, and that the city will have control over how and how much cannabis can be bought and sold, except as permitted under Health and Safety Sections 11362.5 and 11362.7 through 11362.9.

The first thing to note about these sections is that they are specific to cities. Nowhere does the word "county" appear.
In Item 7, "city" is specified 3 times, every way they know how: "if a city", "that city's limits", "the city's citizens". The rule of thumb is if you say something three times you mean exactly what you said.
This item exempts medical marijuana patients only in cities, and only with regard to how much they may possess and consume. It makes it legal to ban medical marijuana dispensaries, collectives, and delivery services. Unless the city enacts a sin tax, any buying and selling will be illegal.
The Omission
Section C, Intents, has two items.
Item 1 is a list of the laws Prop. 19 is "intended to limit the application and enforcement of". The inclusion of the phrase "including but not limited to the following, whether now existing or adopted in the future" opens the door for the argument to be made that Prop. 19 may (and most likely will) be interpreted to "limit" the "application and enforcement" of the now existing medical marijuana laws.
This interpretation is reinforced by Item 2 under this section, a list of state laws Prop. 19 "is not intended to affect the application or enforcement of".
Note that Item 2 is not open-ended. There is no "including but not limited to" modifier for this Item.
Conspicuously absent from either list are California's medical marijuana laws: Health & Safety Code Sections 11362.5 and 11362.7-11362.9.
These mentions and omissions occur in the 'preamble' of the initiative, titled Findings, Intent and Purposes. Concerns have been expressed regarding how legally binding these sections are and that nowhere in the sections to be added to California's legal code is there any mention of medical marijuana or any exemption for medical marijuana patients and providers.
The State will be Exploiting pain and suffering of the Medical Community, but you who don't have scripts because youâ??re cheap and donâ??t want to pay 45-60 dollars every 3-12 months don't care at all about anything but your own selfish ends. Youâ??d Rather Pay the State $50 Tax+ The Price for an Ounce EVERY TIME you buy an ounce than $50 a year for a prescription with no tax?. Thinkâ?¦ Does that make any kind of sense?
Nowhere does the initiative exempt medical marijuana cultivators or distributors from the tax.
Proponents of Prop. 19 often argue that everything is taxed. This is not true. Illinois is the only state that taxes prescription pharmaceuticals, and that tax is 1%.
Proponents of Prop. 19 claim they want to tax and regulate marijuana like alcohol. It costs $450 to license a pharmacy in California and between $340-$580 to license a retail alcohol establishment. Long Beach claims 85 medical marijuana dispensaries and charges $14,742 for a license. Oakland has a limit of 4 dispensaries and charges them $30,000 for a license.
Proponents of Prop. 19 argue that it is illegal to consume alcohol in sight of anyone under 21 or in public. California is littered with sidewalk cafes and pizza parlors that serve beer, wine, and mixed drinks in public and in the sight of children!
To date the cities of Oakland (the home or Proposition 19), Sacramento (The State Capital), Long Beach, and Berkeley have announced proposals to tax medical marijuana in order to keep their medical marijuana dispensaries from being shut down should Proposition 19 pass.
The most liberal of these is Berkeley, where medical marijuana patients will pay 7.5% less tax than recreational users, and it will only cost them 2.5% more than the 9.75% in sales tax they're already paying.
Sacramento is proposing a sin tax of between 5% and 10% for recreational users and 2% to 4% for the sick and dying. "We're trying to get ahead of the process," said councilmember Sandy Sheedy, who proposed the ordinance.

Medical marijuana patients use considerably more than recreational users. Irv Rosenfeld receives 11 ounces per month from the federal government. Maine recently determined that it's medical marijuana patients would use 5 ounces per month, on average. The tax on medicine, besides being ethically inconsistent, falls most heavily on the sickest, who tend to be the poorest.
At $400 per ounce, a medical marijuana patient who needs 3 ounces a month will pay $138.60 tax per month in Oakland.
What is wrong with you people? Do you really want MORE TAXES?! This is exactly what your all "voting" for. Don't think the state is going to drop the price of an Ounce because they are not. If you believe that you re a fool, and will be one of many who are going to be greatly disappointed when the state impedes more taxes on things we love.

Meanwhile, no city or county in California has reversed itself on a ban or
moratorium on medical marijuana dispensaries since Oakland (home of Prop. 19) passed Measure F, the first medical marijuana tax.
Meanwhile, several cases are working through the courts challenging medical marijuana bans, moratoriums, and regulations which are de facto bans, as discriminatory and in violation of California's medical marijuana laws. Passage of Prop 19 will remove any legal basis for these cases.
Taking the 'medical' out of 'marijuana'


Prop. 19 adds five sections to California's Health & Safety Code, §§ 11300-11304.
§11300 is titled Personal Regulation and Controls. Item a) begins with the phrase "Notwithstanding any other provision of law".
This section makes possession of more than an ounce or by anyone under 21 illegal. It also limits non-licensed cultivation to 25 square feet per residence or parcel, not per person.
If the authors of Prop. 19 wanted to protect medical marijuana patients, why did they say "Notwithstanding any other provision of law"? Think people, stop being a follower.
§11301 is titled Commercial Regulations and Controls. It begins with the phrase "Notwithstanding any other provision of state or local law". It prohibits sales to anyone under 21. Nowhere in this section is there any exemption for medical marijuana patients, cultivators, or distributors.
In addition to allowing cities and counties to ban commercial cultivation and sales (including medical marijuana collectives and dispensaries) it states the following:
(g) prohibit and punish through civil fines or other remedies the possession, sale, possession for sale, cultivation, processing, or transportation of cannabis that was not obtained lawfully from a person pursuant to this section or section 11300;

This means that the taxes and fees paid by the licensed commercial cultivators and distributors will be used to eliminate the competition. For example, Oakland (the home of Prop. 19) is in the process of licensing four cultivators to supply the approximately 6,000 pounds per year sold by the four licensed dispensaries.
Growing marijuana can be lucrative, but the cityâ??s proposed new rules would eliminate small-timers. It would cost $5,000 just to apply for a cultivation permit, and a regulatory fee of $211,000 for the lucky winners... This isnâ??t the American way this is , the one with the biggest pockets wins.
These fee's pays for regulating cultivation in Oakland, which will include enforcement against the guys with grow lights in their garages and backyard sheds. These are the true American Entrepreneurâ??s, but it seems you "Yes" are to self centered and selfish to care about us small timers who are trying to survive these tough times.
The New York times reports that the leading contender for one of these cultivation permits is Jeff Wilcox, a member of the Proposition 19 steering committee. "Mr. Wilcox estimated that AgraMed would cost $20 million to develop."
Reasonable price to control the market and destroy any small time growers and dispensaries now in place.

Current California medical marijuana law does not prohibit smoking in public. It is not currently illegal for medical marijuana patients to smoke in public or in sight of anyone under 18:11362.79.
Nothing in this article shall authorize a qualified patient or person with an identification card to engage in the smoking of medical marijuana under any of the following circumstances:
(a) In any place where smoking is prohibited by law.
(b) In or within 1,000 feet of the grounds of a school, recreation center, or
youth center, unless the medical use occurs within a residence.
(c) On a school bus.
(d) While in a motor vehicle that is being operated.
(e) While operating a boat.
While debating Keith Kimber on Time4Hemp Chris Conrad stated Prop. 19 would have to win by a wider margin than Prop. 215 in order to supersede it. He reiterated this in an email that was passed around Facebook.
Even if it did conflict with or amend the medical marijuana laws, which it repeatedly does not do, Prop 19 would still have to pass by more than 56% to have any effect on Prop 215, which is highly unlikely.

Conrad however is in error. The California Initiative Guide states the following:
If the provisions of two or more measures approved at the same election conflict, those of the measure receiving the highest affirmative vote shall prevail (Cal. Const., art. II, Section 10(b)).

This is not a case of two or more measures in the same election.

I for one am not voting for Prop 19, for a multitude of reasons, this is just one more. I truly hope people read this and wake up, don't let this become all about money and greed, don't you think California has enough of that? Keep this Grown by the people, for the People... Think...
One Love...
:rastasmoke:

me, and many others have pointed out all the lies and mistatements in that text before. Are you trying to tell us that Jack Herer and Dennis Peron wrote this? or that they even agree with this? I seriously doubt it. it sounds like your just pasting their names on to your usual load of lies and crap. :twocents:

^ after some thought :stoned: perhaps I could have responded a bit friendlier. :) you probably wouldn't be posting all this unless you think your seeing something. I'll read it again. sometime.

or maybe I'll just let you Cali guys argue about this. just let me know how all comes out so I can prepare for this years road trip out there. :rasta:

Well for one a few things in that post, yes are Dennis's EXACT words, I added some of mine, and yes some of the Things are also Jacks. So in a sense they must of if they said it.
I just hate that people don't realize, yes Cali is broke, but this isn't the way to fix it. Cali always says one thing does somthing completely different, its getting to the point I dont even want to live here anymore.
If they didnt restrict Growing to a 5X5 area (less than the Medical laws now) and force us to only Medicate indoors I really wouldnt mind the bill. But those two are Major issues because now they want to be the ONLY ones growing and regulating the marijuana sales. Sure now anyone can grow but it is better having no Size limit and 18 plants(Medical) than a 5X5 that you can only put 3-6 plants in(19). As of now there is no Tax on Medical, and with 19 there are 3 different taxes you pay per purchase... To me you want less freedoms and Tax? all because you don't have to get a script? thats not logical, use Logic and stop thinking its legal. If it was "Legal" feds couldnt touch you, and guess what even with 19 passed, they can and they will.
All I'm trying to do is open peoples eyes to the real truth because all you Yes on 19 voters only see 1 thing "legal" and everything else outside your tunnel vision in blurred, and they want that, keep the people dumb and blind, easier to control...

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Originally Posted by ZeroWingX

Well for one a few things in that post, yes are Dennis's EXACT words, I added some of mine, and yes some of the Things are also Jacks. So in a sense they must of if they said it.
I just hate that people don't realize, yes Cali is broke, but this isn't the way to fix it. Cali always says one thing does somthing completely different, its getting to the point I dont even want to live here anymore.
If they didnt restrict Growing to a 5X5 area (less than the Medical laws now) and force us to only Medicate indoors I really wouldnt mind the bill. But those two are Major issues because now they want to be the ONLY ones growing and regulating the marijuana sales. Sure now anyone can grow but it is better having no Size limit and 18 plants(Medical) than a 5X5 that you can only put 3-6 plants in(19). As of now there is no Tax on Medical, and with 19 there are 3 different taxes you pay per purchase... To me you want less freedoms and Tax? all because you don't have to get a script? thats not logical, use Logic and stop thinking its legal. If it was "Legal" feds couldnt touch you, and guess what even with 19 passed, they can and they will.
All I'm trying to do is open peoples eyes to the real truth because all you Yes on 19 voters only see 1 thing "legal" and everything else outside your tunnel vision in blurred, and they want that, keep the people dumb and blind, easier to control...

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I was with you until the "dumb and blind part". That just makes you look weak and discredits your arguement. :twocents:

I'll try to restrain myself from the debate and let you Californian's discuss this but where are you coming up with this 18 plant limit? There are no predefined plant limits on medical use. The California Supreme Court ruled that the only thing that can limit the size of a medical garden in California is the medical need of the medical consumer. They threw out all the local restriction that some counties and/or cities had passed.

Also, Prop 19 says that any laws that currently exist about smoking with or in front of a minor will not be nullified by Prop 19. How does that become "new laws" regarding this matter?

I'm just asking, trying to get others in the debate.

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Originally Posted by boaz

I was with you until the "dumb and blind part". That just makes you look weak and discredits your arguement. :twocents:

I'll try to restrain myself from the debate and let you Californian's discuss this but where are you coming up with this 18 plant limit? There are no predefined plant limits on medical use. The California Supreme Court ruled that the only thing that can limit the size of a medical garden in California is the medical need of the medical consumer. They threw out all the local restriction that some counties and/or cities had passed.

Also, Prop 19 says that any laws that currently exist about smoking with or in front of a minor will not be nullified by Prop 19. How does that become "new laws" regarding this matter?

I'm just asking, trying to get others in the debate.

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Well sorry for offending you about that, but thats how the Government see's us.We are just Number's with dollar signs to them. I mean sorry to be blunt but you honestly think they care? As far as a Plant limit,Yes actually there is. Each state that has it legalized does, California's is Currently 18. 6 adults and 12 Babies for EACH PATIENT. I obtained a Growing license that add's 12 more plants (6A, 6B) for each patient I offer care for up to a limit of 99 before another License is needed. Prop 19 plainly states any smoking in front of a Minor under the age of 21 will be punishable. Its in my post lol
:rastasmoke:

no problem, bro. my fault, I misread your comments. in my defense I had been driving all night and hadn't slept the night before. not a good idea in general, but ...

"Prop 19 plainly states any smoking in front of a Minor under the age of 21 will be punishable. Its in my post lol"

are you talking about this below? because, if you are, that is not what that says at all. maybe you were refering to something else??

Current California medical marijuana law does not prohibit smoking in public. It is not currently illegal for medical marijuana patients to smoke in public or in sight of anyone under 18:11362.79.
Nothing in this article shall authorize a qualified patient or person with an identification card to engage in the smoking of medical marijuana under any of the following circumstances:
(a) In any place where smoking is prohibited by law.
(b) In or within 1,000 feet of the grounds of a school, recreation center, or
youth center, unless the medical use occurs within a residence.
(c) On a school bus.
(d) While in a motor vehicle that is being operated.
(e) While operating a boat.

Yea as of now with 215 you can legaly smoke in Public, thats not the debate

I'm sorry Boaz I mis understood your post I was refering to this section.
"Prohibits people from possessing marijuana on school grounds, using it in public,
smoking it while minors are present, or providing it to anyone under 21 years old."

Not using it in public? thats a Joke they are taking the Medicine right out of it. And thats what it truly is.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ZeroWingX

I'm sorry Boaz I mis understood your post I was refering to this section.
"Prohibits people from possessing marijuana on school grounds, using it in public,
smoking it while minors are present, or providing it to anyone under 21 years old."

Not using it in public? thats a Joke they are taking the Medicine right out of it. And thats what it truly is.

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Its not like folks arent gonna do it anyway,im fine with the not around schools and kids thing.Its not like you can just go walking anywhere with a beer in your hand and not get popped for public intoxication,its the same thing.

Ok dig that, but your not understanding this part of the bill, they mean ANYWHERE in Public, you stepping outside after a morning stretch with a joint in your mouth is punishable. If you're like me and Surf , me blazing at the beach by myself will now me jailtime. Me fishing At the pier @ 2am with a few friends (who are also Medical users) is now instant cuffs. This is what I'm talking about, I dont go walking around with a bong to a elementry lol...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ZeroWingX

Ok dig that, but your not understanding this part of the bill, they mean ANYWHERE in Public, you stepping outside after a morning stretch with a joint in your mouth is punishable. If you're like me and Surf , me blazing at the beach by myself will now me jailtime. Me fishing At the pier @ 2am with a few friends (who are also Medical users) is now instant cuffs. This is what I'm talking about, I dont go walking around with a bong to a elementry lol...

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Yeah I see your point,and understand how you feel about it. not gonna stop me from smokin in my yard or anywhere else my kids arent.plenty of people smoke illegally everyday in many places,i just dont see that changing.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ub3rB0ng

Yeah I see your point,and understand how you feel about it. not gonna stop me from smokin in my yard or anywhere else my kids arent.plenty of people smoke illegally everyday in many places,i just dont see that changing.

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Agreed, its just I can do it Legaly now. After years of blazing I don't have to duck and dodge, I can smoke without fear freely, why would you want to lose that? I dont understand it. Its like you want all the Bad just because anyone over 21 can have a 5X5 plot... But if you just go get a script you get no limit of space and up to 18 plants.... Its going backwards and I'm really trying to see how you want this bill....

I dunno,i think its a half decent start in the right direction,this govt is gonna go to hell in handbasket either way.Most people who can vote simply dont,which is why we should get whatever we can now.I have no interest in selling,never have.Less time I gotta spend with doctors the better,most of the stuff around lately you dont grow yourself is garbage anyway,the only people really affected are the ones that cant anyway.Kinda hard to argue with millions of people that toke.

Yea its a step in a direction, but not the right one. Think about it you honestly think the Government controling this is going to make it better? The state regulating is going to make it better? People don't vote because there is no point the "people" dont have a voice when they government really wants somthing to happen. If they see you making profit and they arn't getting a cut they will figure out some way to get a cut regardless of where you live and what you do so long as ur an american.
I love my State and I'd die for my Country, but I hate the people in charge of it all. I'm nothing but a Number to them nothing more.
I'm not fighting you because I'm some greedy ass farmer, I'm a small Urban grower that supplies Medicine for Patients that seek Quality not quanity.
I just Hate that the People who really need this Medication arn't going to be able to afford it, they cant grow it in doors, and they def can't pay this insane tax they are inacting.
But like I said you wouldnt care right? Its "Legal"(Find that word in the Bill yet?, keep looking :thumbsup:) for you right? lol

Of course there is no voice,we never use it.Negative views arent gonna help.thats right and it wont change if people keep thinking like that,common sense says you got a voice use the damn thing,the continued pussification of america will just get bigger and bigger if we dont.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ub3rB0ng

Of course there is no voice,we never use it.Negative views arent gonna help.thats right and it wont change if people keep thinking like that,common sense says you got a voice use the damn thing,the continued pussification of america will just get bigger and bigger if we dont.

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I vote, I urge people to Vote, but if THEY want it passed , guess what... Its going to pass, thats all I'm saying dont fool yourself into thinking the people are in control of anything, because come on bro we arn't...

of course we arent,we never have been.Its just alot worse nowadays given the crappy economic times of our country and state.what this country needs is another revolution to help it pull its head out of its ass.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ZeroWingX

I'm sorry Boaz I mis understood your post I was refering to this section.
"Prohibits people from possessing marijuana on school grounds, using it in public, smoking it while minors are present, or providing it to anyone under 21 years old."

Not using it in public? thats a Joke they are taking the Medicine right out of it. And thats what it truly is.

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Okay, I see where your talking about now. That is in the summary section, but I think in the detail (see above) it is saying something completely different. interesting.

makes me to go to law school when I come back to Cali. :jointsmile: should be a demand for good ones for a long time either way this prop turns out.

good luck, Cali.

Thx Bro I'm only Battling this "Yes" for the People who really need 215. The Small ops, the Medical Patients, the Real people who this isnt a game to just be played with. If you read my last post in the NorCal section you'll see, I'm not voting No for the little Money I make or because I use pot to get out of working.Im a college student, grower, tattoo artist, I drift, I race in the AMA 600 open, I started a Magazine, I'm an enviromentalist. I call all of that "work" lol, I'm voting No because the little 140-180 I charge an Ounce is nothing to the 300-500 that will start happening. People think it'll drop because there will be more on the Market. How is there more when all the California Natives Growers are all gone and there is only the Industrialized Corps controling everything? If they own the Market they control the prices no? So Rules of Supply and demand. You all want weed? fine you wanted it legal pay 300 ounce + tax, your total is now 450 have a nice day. "wit it only used to be 250, most i ever paid was 320?!"
I own the Market and thats my price thank you come again.
Thats not right man...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ZeroWingX

Thx Bro I'm only Battling this "Yes" for the People who really need 215. The Small ops, the Medical Patients, the Real people who this isnt a game to just be played with. If you read my last post in the NorCal section you'll see, I'm not voting No for the little Money I make or because I use pot to get out of working.Im a college student, grower, tattoo artist, I drift, I race in the AMA 600 open, I started a Magazine, I'm an enviromentalist. I call all of that "work" lol, I'm voting No because the little 140-180 I charge an Ounce is nothing to the 300-500 that will start happening. People think it'll drop because there will be more on the Market. How is there more when all the California Natives Growers are all gone and there is only the Industrialized Corps controling everything? If they own the Market they control the prices no? So Rules of Supply and demand. You all want weed? fine you wanted it legal pay 300 ounce + tax, your total is now 450 have a nice day. "wit it only used to be 250, most i ever paid was 320?!"
I own the Market and thats my price thank you come again.
Thats not right man...

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I dont think there are any med users or otherwise that would pay that,and they know it,they will make it cheaper because they know they will sell more,it might be crappy product but at least at first they will make alot of monies because all of the desperate people will rush out and think its cool.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ub3rB0ng

I dont think there are any med users or otherwise that would pay that,and they know it,they will make it cheaper because they know they will sell more,it might be crappy product but at least at first they will make alot of monies because all of the desperate people will rush out and think its cool.

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So u'd trade qulity for Quanity? I know people like me and you will grow our own meds but like I said what about the actual medical users out there? Some shwank isnt gonna have the same painkilling effects as my Romulan...
And with a 5X5 I cant grow for me and them as well...
Just saying....

no I most definately wouldnt,but i dont buy from others already.

ah where there in lies that debate problem lol you dont know what its like to depends on some-1 else for your med's like my patients do...