Topped at 2nd leaf stage: Got V branches as normal, but top grew back as well! 3 tops

Well, as earlier noted SWIM topped one of his plant early as an experimentation.

At second leaf stage it was topped, and two new branches grew out in the normal V shaped fashion. However, a few days later, SWIM noticed that the main stem that was topped off was growing back! ?

Is this common or could it be something happening because SWIM topped it so young? SWIM didn't think anything would grow up from the topped part itself.

So, the two new main branches are bigger, and the one that magically re-appeared is smaller. Using LST on the two bigger ones to get more light to the smaller to help growth. 3 is always better than two

Never had this happening before so SWIM wondered if this is common and if others experience this when topping their plants?

Attached photos. Also a photo of the light source and setup from further away.

Cheers
-M

Way to early.

-C

Yes doing it early was the whole point of the experiment.

So what do you think about the main stem growing back so now it got 3 top stems instead of just two as normally with topping?

So, this again means that doing it early as SWIM did can be better as it can give more top stems and the plant seem to do fine, healing and growing well.

LST in process should help too, with the light (65w CFL and 30w CFL) very close, letting all 3 tops exposed to lots of light and growth.

-M

Surgery on infant plants is not dissimilar to surgery on infant kids. Everything is so small, it's easy to screw it up.
Instead of 'topping' them, you've given 'em a 'FIM'. (Fu*k, I Missed)
If you 'pop' the tops off instead of using scissors, this event isn't as likely to happen. Being such a young plant though, damaged cells rebuild and sometimes the youngster get's the reapirs wrong.

After butchering them this early, hopefully the stress won't stunt them and prevent a full recovery. They aren't healthy (mature) enough to dick with yet, but you knew this already. Usually happens if you don't slice between the youngsters nodes, and leave some part of the mainstem.

Looks like overwatering and a lack of perlite, too. What kind of soil?

Thanks for the info. And yes overwatering, its simply due to the plants having been just transplanted from one container into a new one when the photo was taken. SWIM had 3 different plants in the same container so he had to move them over into separate containers.

The soil is a mix of his own garden soil with a bit of sand and various pebbles and tiny stones mixed in, along with couple earthworms. That's all he had at hand , he will see if its going fine enough as it is, if not he will transplant into better soil that he first gotta get hands on including perlite and peat moss which he really don't know where to buy here but he suppose he should be able to find some place since he lives on the countryside in a small farmer town. The "pebbles" currently used are kitten litter, I am not sure if that actually is perlite but it looks just identical ( just like this http://drycreekcactus.com/soils/perlite.jpg )

He normally do not grow inside or use any special soil, as he lives in a country where its legal to grow and use, and normally just have it in his garden. But right now its winter and too cold outside so he thought to try his first indoor growing and experimentations.

Cheers

SWIM got his hands on Peat moss, Perlite and store-bought soil ("organic compost" - "for better drainage and porosity").

So now he wonders what ratios he should mix these three together? Any suggestions there?

He wants to transplant his planties over into a new clean soil as the one he got them in now is from his garden, kinda compact and got lotsa bugs and crap in it.

Cheers.

Humm seems to be a pretty interesting experiment.. Cant wait to see the outcome of this all.

Well SWIM took the perlite, compost-soil and peat moss and mixed it together. He used about one third of perlite to the soil, and to the complete mix of soil and perlite he used about one fourth of peat moss, and mixed it together as well as he could.

Then he did the painstaking and long job of transplanting his planties from their nasty muddy soil to the new one that is "the way its supposed to be" more or less. Hopefully this will give the plants some joy. He also put the 3-headed baby into more suspension through LST-technique to not only bend the two new tops away from the middle, but also bend down the upper part of the plant itself.

The reason for this is to let more light reach the sidebranches so they will reach out and up and make the main stem of the plant itself grow horizontally around the edges of the container with only the branches sticking up with their tops and the thre main tops spread in each their direction as the plant grows until they've spiralled all the way in to the middle of the container they are in and meet back with the stem.

The point of this is to increase yield, avoid height, and get more bushy plant. Here is an illustration of the process both "side view" and "above view" during the plants growth through time and twirling around within the container being helt down, in my case, by bindes, and some example photso of a plants LST'ed. All photos shows only one plant per photo, and what LST can get out of your plant.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mahavatar

The reason for this is to let more light reach the sidebranches so they will reach out and up and make the main stem of the plant itself grow horizontally around the edges of the container with only the branches sticking up with their tops and the thre main tops spread in each their direction as the plant grows until they've spiralled all the way in to the middle of the container they are in and meet back with the stem.

The point of this is to increase yield, avoid height, and get more bushy plant. Here is an illustration of the process both "side view" and "above view" during the plants growth through time and twirling around within the container being helt down, in my case, by bindes, and some example photso of a plants LST'ed. All photos shows only one plant per photo, and what LST can get out of your plant.

---

Not trying to steal a post/thread but I cannot find Your orig thread for that LST Diagram, But I was wondering what you are using/going to use to tie down the main stem around the planter or are you tieing to the soil? Here's my thread. I think you may have already read it. But lemme know what you think I can do to better enhance my yield,

http://boards.cannabis.com/indoor-gr...er-stairs.html

Either using strings or thick rubber bands connected to something suitable. BTW those diagrams and photos are not mine, it was something I had collected on LST and I don't have the source for them here right now.

Anyway, I was wondering if anyone know what could be wrong with this particular plant, its leaves are covered with dark brown spots unlike any of the others.

Its held down using binders for LST which works great at this stage.

Should these leaves with brown spots be cut off or trimmed some or left as they are? And what can be the cause? The only light source is one 65w CFL and one 30w CFL placed about a fist sized height above it. Tin foil reflectors around. Spray with water-dust now and then.

Also adding some photos of the 3 headed one and how its tied down with binders, the point is to let one top grow to the right, the other to the left, and I have not decided about the middle one yet.

-M

2 more pics

PS the photos were taken 1 day after transplanting from muddy bad soil to a perlite/peat moss/soil mix. Thus they are a bit "down" at the moment. How long does it normally take for'em to recover and be fine after such a transplation, getting root bound in the new soil etc? They got watered the day the transplantation took place, where the new soil mix was soaked to be completely wet and then let excess water drain out through the drainage holes at bottom before soil was gently squeezed a bit to make it more compact and keep the plants in place. How wet should the soil be in this state, and how often should one water this kind of soil mix?

Your overwatering is causing the brown spots and the yellowing. It's getting critical. Do you have a fan on 'em? If not, do so now. Seriously...let the soil dry out between waterings. Stick your finger in, up to the 2nd knuckle. If you pull it out and there's moist potting mix in/on/under your fingernail, it isn't dry enough to water yet.

I'd ditch the tin foil too. It retains more CFL heat, than it reflects usable lumens. By the time the (23w and 30w CFL) light gets to the foil, then reflects back to the plant...the light is too weak to properly promote photosynthesis. For higher-watt CFL bulbs, the heat is still more of an issue, but the added lumens aren't necessarily worth the heat. (keep fan's on 'em)
Flat white paint works best.

Thanks for the tip, will make sure to check the dryness of the soil properly between watering.

The reason for the tin-foil is actually to keep some heat in there. It's very cold these days, winter times here in Argentina, and I do not have any heaters in the room they are located so the only heat source is the CFL lights themselves. You still think I should remove the tinfoil?

Would like to build some kind of box I could put it all inside and have some reflective surfaces as walls on the inside and a lid I could put on top to more properly isolate them from cold and keep heat inside - the CFL's don't create much heat, I don't think it will need any fans at least for the sake of the heat. Can touch those things and they are barely hot. I used to have a normal 150 w bulb hanging above the whole setup inside that closet just to get more heat but I'm currently using that socket and cable for an extra CFL now so its colder in there.

In total there are 3 plants, with two 65w CFLs and one 30w CFL. Don't have any good lamps so its a bugger to get those lights properly aligned in there and positioned, using a combination of two old office lamps and a lose cable with only a socket hanging down from the ceiling. Can't get those socket splitters etc here, was out checking the other day. Might buy a round ceiling lamp that got room for 3 bulbs that can be moved around in different directions which looked pretty fair for this purpose and to replace the rather messy setup I have now with these current lamps.

Don't know how I can get the soil less wet, dont got any fans and dont have any place with heat to put the plants unless I take them out from the whole closet and away from their lights and put them close to a heater in a different room or something? They wont get any light then though except for normal daylight coming in through windows in the room.

I thought the new soil and the fact I just transplanted them made them a bit weak and that they needed rather moist and wet soil to start properly rooting in the new mix so I did the mistake of watering them plenty after transplanting. All containers have drainage holes though so at least some of the excess water is pouring back out and filling up on the drainage-tray I have them placed.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mahavatar

The reason for the tin-foil is actually to keep some heat in there. It's very cold these days, winter times here in Argentina, and I do not have any heaters in the room they are located so the only heat source is the CFL lights themselves. You still think I should remove the tinfoil?

---

Nope. My bad. Best not to give 'em a chill.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mahavatar

the CFL's don't create much heat, I don't think it will need any fans at least for the sake of the heat. Can touch those things and they are barely hot. I used to have a normal 150 w bulb hanging above the whole setup inside that closet just to get more heat but I'm currently using that socket and cable for an extra CFL now so its colder in there.

---

Ventilation and circulation is critical for healthy ladies. You need the ventilation to keep replacing the fresh air and specifically CO2 to the plant, and circulation helps dry the soil and strengthen the stems.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mahavatar

In total there are 3 plants, with two 65w CFLs and one 30w CFL. Don't have any good lamps so its a bugger to get those lights properly aligned in there and positioned, using a combination of two old office lamps and a lose cable with only a socket hanging down from the ceiling. Can't get those socket splitters etc here, was out checking the other day. Might buy a round ceiling lamp that got room for 3 bulbs that can be moved around in different directions which looked pretty fair for this purpose and to replace the rather messy setup I have now with these current lamps.

---

Have you thought about upgrading to a 250w or 400w HPS?
Best overall reflective surface is flat white paint. (the washable kind)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mahavatar

Don't know how I can get the soil less wet, dont got any fans and dont have any place with heat to put the plants unless I take them out from the whole closet and away from their lights and put them close to a heater in a different room or something? They wont get any light then though except for normal daylight coming in through windows in the room.

---

Keep your eye's open for a cheap circulating fan.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mahavatar

I thought the new soil and the fact I just transplanted them made them a bit weak and that they needed rather moist and wet soil to start properly rooting in the new mix so I did the mistake of watering them plenty after transplanting. All containers have drainage holes though so at least some of the excess water is pouring back out and filling up on the drainage-tray I have them placed.

---

Watering-in after transplanting is a good idea. Just don't keep the roots saturated after that.
In emergencies, like when the monsoon season hits, and my 5 gallon buckets won't dry...I use a smooth sided bamboo stick. I push it down into the soil till it hit's bottom, and gently create a 'funnel' shaped hole by gently turning the stick in a larger and larger circle. About a one inch (30mm or so, I think) opening at top creates an air channel for evaporation. Don't abuse the roots though. One or two of these holes on opposite sides of the pot helps bunches. Try not to have to do this too often. :thumbsup:

Thanks again for all the tips.

Now, I have been told that various rooting medias can be good to feed the plants with as it will increase the rooting and make it root more quicker. Normally this is used on cuttings, but I was told its good to feed young plants with this too.

Further I was told some good natural easy to make rooting medias are among others: honey, coconut milk and malt (honey on its own, or 50% + 50% mix coco milk and malt).

Any insights on that? Would it be a good idea to add some of either (or all) of the above-mentioned substances into the water and feed the plants with it?

Links regarding the honey, coconut milk and malt mentioend above:

How to Water Plants With Honey Water | eHow.com

planttissue

Well installed a fan and switched the 30w CFL with a 60 w standard "spotlight" bulb (to get some heat in there) and positioned the two 65w CFL's in a position better covering all 3 plants. Also removed about 70% of the big leaves from the one plant in images above that had yellowed a lot and had spots, which seems to have helped, at least the other leaves got greener and seem to have grown a bit. In addition I removed some of the larger yellowish fan-leaves of the "3-headed" plant to get some more light exposure at the nodes by their growing points.

The same goes for the third plant which I did not put up any photos of, it is not tampered with in other ways such as topping or LST as the two others.

The general update is that the plants dont really look better, but they do not look worse either, so it might help with the hotter environment and the fan installed.

My theory is that they most likely were stressed due to being both topped, LST'ed and transplanted into 3 different types of soil in one weeks time. and are hopefully recovering from that and will be fine with some time and care.

Some updated photos to show that it seems they get better. I am attaching two photos of two different plants 3 days later than the last photos I posted. Will attach the older photos first for easy comparison, and the new 3 days later photos next. In addition one photo of the third plant which have not been shown yet, as well as the new setup with fan and new bulb for heat. Notice that the plants had some yellowish and sick leaves, specially one with two very large leaves which were cut almost completely away, this seems to have helped as the two tops from the topping have grown quite much after that and more light also reaches a lower node which has grown. First the "before 3 days" pics, then the "3 days later" pics, with the new setup. Mr 3-heads does not really look worse nor better, at least that's not a bad sign, but mr two big-leaves looks greatly improved after trimming the two big leaves.

And here is Mr Tiny and some more of the closet setup.

I added 3 bottles producing CO2 for the plants in the closet which seems to be a good idea. What I did was putting a couple hundred grams of sugar in each bottle, alittle urine (yup piss alittle filling bottom of the bottle) and then added some yeast and finally warm water up to around 70% of the bottle's total volume. A small hole was drilled into the cap using a knife (about needle sized hole, so you can use a needle). Then cap was screwed back on top, the bottles shaken violently for a while (hold yer thumb on the hole!) before putting them into the closet around with the plants. This produces CO2 gas which will be going on for couple weeks during the fermentation process. Extra Co2 seems to be beneficial for the plants, and I also spray them gently with carbonated water ("club soda" or "seltzer water" is what its called in english I think) with low sodium level in it.

Doing the above will make the solution fizzle and bubble and foam thus only filling about 70% of the bottle so it doesnt bubble over, and it also builds pressure so don't shake the bottle before making the hole in the cap or it might explode in yer face. The point of the small hole is to gently release the pressure and thus let Co2-gas flow out to the plants within the closet they are all placed.

Each bottle used is a 2.5-litre Coca Cola plastic bottle.

Do you expect anything from these?

-C

Yes hopefully, wouldn't do all this trouble for nothing. But as said its the first time I grow inside etc, so its a new experience and learning on the way. Got basically unlimited supply of seeds in either case and got several sprouts ready to replace with if needed but I'm still positive and optimistic and expecting these planties to recover and grow fine, I just turned the best looking one over a bit and noticed it has new colas growing out beneath the two main colas so I turned it around and spread the other two tops and LST'ed it down in a better position to let more light reach the new growths as well.

The tiny one that has not been altered or manipulated in any way was also LST'ed today and bent down to allow more light reaching lower level growth at the main stem where some new things were poppin out.

We will see how it turns out.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mahavatar

Yes hopefully, wouldn't do all this trouble for nothing. But as said its the first time I grow inside etc, so its a new experience and learning on the way. Got basically unlimited supply of seeds in either case and got several sprouts ready to replace with if needed but I'm still positive and optimistic and expecting these planties to recover and grow fine, I just turned the best looking one over a bit and noticed it has new colas growing out beneath the two main colas so I turned it around and spread the other two tops and LST'ed it down in a better position to let more light reach the new growths as well.

The tiny one that has not been altered or manipulated in any way was also LST'ed today and bent down to allow more light reaching lower level growth at the main stem where some new things were poppin out.

We will see how it turns out.

---

Oh.

-C

Careful with the LST this early. I tied mine down when I had a few more nodes growing, and still ended up with my stalk in the dirt. This turned out alright, as I ended up with a ton more roots to help suck up water and nutes, but it made it a bit hard during transplants.

I would suggest tieing it back the other way half way up or so. IE, leave the hold donw you have on, but then attach another string (or whatever you're tieing down with :D) pulling in the opposite direction. That way you will end up with the stalk starting out in a vertical position for a few inches before going horizontal.

Merely suggestions, looks good!

Thanks for the tip. I'm trying with one to see how it turns out, I also turned it a bit sideways than it originally was tied down as it was starting to get pushed too much into the side of the container making it hard for light to reach properly, and I noticed a couple nodes that had been hiding under there which are now exposed better to light.

Well an update. SWIM is happy to announce that his plants are starting to get better and seem to recover from whatever was the reason they were getting sick. What he did do is the following, which seemed to remedy their illness:

He added as earlier mentioned several bottles producing Co2. These are 5 in total, from 2 to 2.5 liters each. These are simply placed beneath the tin foil covering the whole plant area so that the Co2 will spread freely around to the plants. The Co2 production is simple: Add a tablespoon or two of yeast with a good 50 to 100 gr sugar. Put this in the bottles with a funnel, add hot water to the mix and shake well. Make sure to have the caps, with tiny holes in them (one hole needle sized per cap). This will maintain some pressure in the bottle yet release Co2 evenly for about 2 weeks before the ingredients in the bottle will need to be changed as it will turn to alcohol (as a note, SWIM added some fruits to his bottles so he is getting some extra "harvest" from the Co2 production as well in form of simple basic wine / cider).

Second thing he did was mix some RAW SUGAR (contains molasses good for plants), couple spoons, into a bottle along with some urine (about 1/6th of bottle volume) and the rest filled with warm water, shake well and let cool a bit before watering the plants with this. Good nitogen boos from the urine as well as carbohydrates and nutritions from the molasses (raw sugar).

Just days after this the plants shown significant health improvement and look much better. As seen, the Three Headed one is much better thought still some yellowish, at least its still growing and getting more green, and the one that was LST'ed and topped has started growing several new kolas which will be stems making one plant basically into several plants with several stems instead of just one - some topping was also done on this one.

Third plant has only been LST'ed and not topped or anything else, except for trimming some fan leaves to expose nodes to light. This one's too looking greater.

In addition, there are a couple new seedlings, among other one experiment with a simple hydroponic system using a wick, where pure perlite is in the pot, a hole in the bottom with a wick going into a tray of nutrition-water below which absorbs up into the perlite. So far so good, growing fine.

The last and final thing done was to raise the pots and containers the plants are in above ground level (above the oven pan they are placed in) for better drainage so it drips down into the pan.

Photos attached, compare with old for seeing the difference and new growth.

pics

last pics

A 12 litre container have been added, which you see connected to a hose. This is a "two flies in one hit" wonder. It contains yeast, water, sugar and fruits (apples & oranges) which creates carbondioxide (CO2) for the plants and give them a really nice boost, they grow quicker, stronger, gets more healthy - and the second "fly" here is that the mix in the container producing this CO2 turns into wine. So, I'm brewing a fruit wine as the fermentation turns it into alcohol, which is also what produces the CO2, and in approximately 2 weeks the CO2 is depleted and the wine ready and time to change the contents of the 12 litre container for new WINE/CO2 production.

As seen on photos plants are doing much better, the second thing I give them is a perfect natural organic fertilizer: Compost tea mixed with some urine. This is a simple procedure to create, just take a bucket, fill it with water, take composted soil and fill into a large sock, and let it soak in the bucket for a day so the water gets all brown. Fill this into bottles, and squirt alittle urine into them when you have to pee (nitrogene source).

The combination have done miracles for my plants as seen throughout this thread, and now they are really growing well, very nice and green, and developing many new colas or tops as I LST'ed them and supercropped some. I continously cut large leaves off as they only are in the way for the light, and by removing large leaves I expose the new nodes and coming colas for light so they grow, and seen on the photos this makes one plant create several tops which basically is as one plant looking and being like several plants. You see that on the from above photos where it seems like several plants closely together but this is simply a result of bending down the stem towards the grown, removing large leaves, and exposing the nodes to light so they grow upwards into new colas / tops (Which is called LST, I use binders to keep the plants bent down to the ground and continue doing this with new growth for some horizontal growth and more top colas per plant).

Photos of current setup included.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mahavatar

pics

---

what is the white stuff in the pots?

ha ha ha, sorry dude, i got to say the first pics looked like a major fail, but damn! they are looking healthy as shit dude! good looking comeback. im sure you are happy. im guessing that white stuff is perlite? how is that working out for you? that basicaly hydro style right? are you planning on transplanting? how long between watering?? i hear perlite holds moisture for a long time

Well havn't posted any updates in a while so here are some pics taken today.

Some leaves a bit brown at edges and tips due to most likely under-fertilization / too little nutrition (which now have been taken care of and they seem to be doing better).

And yes that white stuff is perlite, and it can go a week or more between each watering , it does keep the moisture in good.

Updated photos (now 2 weeks into flowering) - taken today, August 23 - 2010:

As seen, the plants have recovered remarkably well considering how they were some time back in this thread, almost dying and really not looking like they would do it. But here they are at this moment:

And couple more from today 23rd: