A few questions on flouresant tubes

I'm planning on growing in a closet soon and just needed some clarification..

My question is: Why are T5's better then say T8's or T12's? T8's and T12's have higher wattage/lumens, so is the smaller diameter giving the T5's a more intense light? Also, I understand you can pack T5's closer together, and by looking at some of the posts with T5 grows they do quite well. But if you where to buy the x2 or even single fixture T8's or T12's without hoods, then mount the fixtures, and make your own hood/reflector, wouldnt this be better? I know the people using T5 setups are generally using High output bulbs, but you could do the same with T8 and T12..... Whats the secret.. lol

Light Bulbs at Bulbman.
VeryHighOutput T12 4ft 115W 6600 lumens per bulb 20$

Buy maybe 3 of these guys

It would work great..., especially for vegging...:thumbsup:...but, you would need one of their Very High Output T-12 ballasts, too.

....and I'm curious, about how much heat they throw off?

...in that it would be great for veg... but can you get those tubes in any colour temp, other than 4100k? I personally like 4100k for a veg colour, but if you wanna take the darlin's thru the whole show with those, you should be able to switch out the tube(s) for 2700k at flowering time.

I would suggest looking into using a schwack of 23-26w CFLs, if for the only reason(s) that they're easily available, easy to work with, and get closer to 70 lumens per watt, rather than the 50-something that the VHO T-12's git ya...

But look into what physical temperature they get their maximum efficiency at... Not sure about T12's, but T8's have one advantage over HO-T5's... they get max efficiency at 75f, which is the exact temp your garden should be at. T5's get max efficiency at either 85f or 90f, which is too hot for the plantlets, so if you're running them in/at the cooler temp, they might not be running at full efficiency.

Oooorrrr.... see if you can get the Sunblaster CFLs, which only use 26w, but put out 2400 lumens each, for a freaky efficiency of 94.4 lumens per watt (Metal Halide territory)! They're also available at both 6400k, and 2700k colour temperatures.

Hope this helps!

...in that it would be great for veg... but can you get those tubes in any colour temp, other than 4100k? I personally like 4100k for a veg colour, but if you wanna take the darlin's thru the whole show with those, you should be able to switch out the tube(s) for 2700k at flowering time.

I would suggest looking into using a schwack of 23-26w CFLs, if for the only reason(s) that they're easily available, easy to work with, and get closer to 70 lumens per watt, rather than the 50-something that the VHO T-12's git ya...

But look into what physical temperature they get their maximum efficiency at... Not sure about T12's, but T8's have one advantage over HO-T5's... they get max efficiency at 75f, which is the exact temp your garden should be at. T5's get max efficiency at either 85f or 90f, which is too hot for the plantlets, so if you're running them in/at the cooler temp, they might not be running at full efficiency.

Oooorrrr.... see if you can get the Sunblaster CFLs, which only use 26w, but put out 2400 lumens each, for a freaky efficiency of 94.4 lumens per watt (Metal Halide territory)! They're also available at both 6400k, and 2700k colour temperatures.

Hope this helps!

Thanks for the replies, defiently some food for thought. Yeah I was thinking I would need a ballast for those VHO T12's, thanks for mentioning that.

So with CFL's, it seems the higher Wattage you use, the lower your watt to lumen ratio gets.

26W CFL = 2400 lumens = 94.4 ratio

65W CFL = 300W output 3900 lumens = 60lumens per watt (at lowes)
Plus, these guys are 17-19$ a pop

So as I mentioned, I was doing a closet grow, with 3-4 ladies in a line, making the 48" tubes seem most appealing. Check these VHO T12's
Sylvania 25249 F48T12/CW/VHO/LT
115W 7500 lumens for a ratio of 65lumens to watt. These are 32$ a pop, not quite out of my price range but getting close (haha). 15k lumens (overkill?) Having a lot of trouble finding a ballast with a r17d base? Would I need to find the sockets that adapt the ends to a more common base?

"Look into what physical temperature they get their maximum efficiency at"
How would I find this out? Is the kelvin temp a factor?

I'm thinking to cover about 48" with CFL's, you would need 4 of them(and with them spread apart over 4ft, each plant is getting maybe 3900lumens x2 at the most, which seems plenty), pretty much 1 per plant, with the cost getting towards 80$, pretty much what those bulbs would cost (not counting the ballast of course). Cant find a ballast for comparison of price :(

Sorry for the long post, but the feedback is greatly appreciated, and I'm trying to be as prepared as I can before I start :)

another, confusing lighting option:...:D...http://boards.cannabis.com/indoor-li...ent-tubes.html

Indeed, another source to research on... I've got some decisions to make haha but thats the fun of it.

... but note, as far as I can tell, the Sunblaster ones are the high-end exception. Most (decent) CFLs should give you 65+ lumens/watt, with max 'normal' efficiency of just over 70L/watt at the 23w-26w / 1600-1750 lumen mark. For some reason, Sunblaster is really able to pump 'em out, and has probably the best overall efficiency outside the actual High Intensity Discharge lamps (HPS and MH).

Physical temperature refers to the ambient temperature of the air in which the bulbs are operating... T8's are apparently quite happy in 75 degree farenheit air, and achieve whatever their maximum energy to light conversion at this point. T5ho's reach this point at 85f, iirc. I'm not sure about T12's, but they would probably be similar (if not cooler-operating) than the T8's.

Colour 'temperature' is different than physical temperature. If you look at a specral graph of the output of the various lights, they have a broad overall spectrum, but centre on a specific place in the visible light spectrum, and have a discernable colour, ranging from an 'orange-y' at the 2700k end, to 'mid-white-y' at the 3500-4100k points, to 'bright-blue-y-white-y' at the 6400/6500k end. Some aquarium bulbs boast colour temps of 10000k or higher, but I am still trying to find some real specs.

Prevailing wisdom either goes two ways on this subject: either get a balance of the colour temps in the box, to get a 'full' white on the subject, or lean towards 6500k/4100k for veg, and 2700k for flowering. I'm personally leaning to the former, and [hurrah!] just found my other two 45w 4100k big'uns! [Available at my local WM for only 15bux ea, or the non-smashy ones for 20!]

My livingroom garden now has 31,200 lumens coming to three plants spread across a 2-2.5 square foot space, so they should be getting 12,480lumens/square foot, perhaps more, with 12000 of the overall in the 4100k colour, and 9600 each in 2700k and 6500k. Overall lumens / watt is 31200/388, for an average of 80.41, which I can live with :) What sorta pisses me off is that my 600w HPS gets 90,000 lumens+, for an efficiency of 150 lumens/watt. The downside of this type of light is the HUGE amount of heat they throw off, which you have to get outside the garden somehow, or risk cooking your plants. My HPS is currently 20" from the closest plant, and about 24" from the farthest. My CFLs are currently 4" from my littleones, and they seem to be liking it a lot now...

Great thing about T8's (and common CFLs! Love those 65watters!) is that you can find 'em in ANY hardware store, and T8 ballasts, too. I understand that digital ballasts are now available--this is something I think I'd run with in your situation, if the cost weren't prohibitive...

No matter whether you choose linear or compact (spiral-y), get the most lumens-per-buck, and get 'em close to home...

More pictures to follow (as soon as my cameraphone starts working again!)...

Just my :twocents: ;)

Some of my 'Fun Stuph'

Thanks for the info CC

I think I understood but would like to clarify on temp. T8's run there best at 75 degree "air" temp? As in, if the room itself is 75 degrees, it would be at its highest efficiency and not have to do with the actual fixture itself? Just like if the air temp in the room was 90-95, T5's would run at their best?

That's a cool setup with the CFLs, looks like you have those 100w's with 'Y' adapters in an outlet strip? Are you not running those 65w - 300efficiency cfls due to cost or the drop in watt/lumen ratio?

Yup, talking about the ambient temperature that they swim in / operate at. If your bulb is sitting in a garden whose temperature actually cools the bulb below its recommended temperature, you're not getting the lumens you think you are.

If, like in the case of T8's, they /do/, your garden and your lights aren't fighting each other. Then, just get the highest-wattage available, and stack'em :) And make sure yer aire temp comin' out is 75:)

In me own CFL garden, I used ta have the big 45w ones on the outside, and the trees of 26w on the inside...

... but the 200w equiv/45w actual 4100k 'shop lights' that were on the outside, are each now sharing one Y adapter from one 'all weather socket' that dangles
from a fixture above (two fixtures, four total bulbs) on the inside locations, and the outer two fixtures support a 'tree' of three Y adapters holding two 2700k 26w 1600lumen bulbs, and two 6500k 26w 1600lumen bulbs (eight total bulbs on two fixtures). Hmm... did I get my math wrong on a previous post? Yup, just checked it, gonna have to add a few more splitters and more bulbs to get up over the meagre 24,800 lumens in there ;)

Gotta post a new pic, but I swear I'm getting some Sunbl4st3rs in there as soon as budget permits :) I just checked my cool friend Jeremy-dude's shoppe, and SB is claiming 2500 lumens for their new 26w bulbs, at the 6400k temp... I suspect their 2700k bulbs have a similar rating.

Support yer local Hydr0-stor3!

... yes, they're the 'Y' adapter beasties, but they're being supported by these 'All-weather sockets' that I found @ WM, for 3.75 ea. They're basically a standard socket that has a white and a black tail out the end, and is coated in some rubbery compound to help keep moisture out. I believe that they are used in things like garage lighting, and I basically took an old extension cord (2 wire) that would support the 400ish watts I wanted to pull thru it, twisted the leads of the sockets around a metal KV shelf bracket, and spliced them to the cord (making sure to get the hot and neutral correct).

The outer two sockets support a tree of three 'Y's, and four 26w bulbs, each. The inner two sockets support a single 'Y' each, and two 45w bulbs. I am not using the 65w bulbs mostly because I can't find 'em off-the-shelf 'round here commonly, while the 45w 4100k 'shop light' can be found at WM, Revy, Hdepot, etc... and the 26 watters are everywhere! I had to go to R to get the Y adapters, but they are only 3.50ea...

So, including the $1 extension cord, the $6 timer... and the $1 of picture wire that is hanging it from two huge wooden beams I rescued from the trash, the total cost of my livingroom lighting is $140 on the bean (not including tax), and I'm getting 24,800 lumens for it, with not too much heat, and I didn't have to buy all the bulbs, etc, at once.

Lumens/watt: 63.92 Lumens/buck: 177.14

(in comparison, even tho my main garden gets 150 lumens/watt, factoring in all of the extra costs of cooling (which I still need to add to!), its lumens/buck ratio is around 171.42 :)

...if you look closely, you can see the differences in the colours, although the camera doesn't do it justice.

LOOKING at it with naked eyeballs, I can tell 'em apart easily :cool:

Yeah I can defiently tell the difference. Ya I finally decided how im gonna start.

For veg ill prob run x8 of those 23w/100w cfl's that do 1600l at 6500k.

For flower I'll prob run about 6 of those cfls(same watts as above) at 2700k and run 4 of the 6500k

But spread over about 40" for 2-3 plants

A lot of people use mylar and other things to reflect their walls, what is cheap and very useful at the local hardware store? I can see the problems with foil

Also, are you going to make some kind of hood for those lights in the pictures?