Calling all LST experts

I want to experiment with LST to see how best to effectively fill a 7 inch wide by 40 inch high trellis. In essence, it is a vertical scrog, with wire creating four 1 3/4 inch squares across and 22 squares per vertical 'column.

For planning purposes, I'll be growing a sativa. My vision is to fill each of those squares on the scrog/trellis with a bud.

The simplest approach, as a newbie imagining, would be to LST while still a very small clone, and try to get three shoots to compete with the main shoot climbing each of the four vertical columns. I imagine that I can tie and adjust as needed to keep each shoot growing in it's own track.

I imagined that there might be a much better, much more elaborate approach to micro-training, but guess that simple is better.

What do all you wise old LST-ers think? How best to harness the growing urges of sativas in a vertical scrog/trellis?

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Originally Posted by AeroManT5

What do all you wise old LST-ers think? How best to harness the growing urges of sativas in a vertical scrog/trellis?

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Is this grow for aesthetics, or for a legitimate attempt at good meds?

If growing indoors, I'd keep the light source on one side of the trellis.
If growing outdoors, are you planning on turning the 'budsites' into the sun as it passes overhead, or will you just fight the the natural growing habit? (it's propensity to follow the sun)

I can picture harvest time being a bitch if the budsites grow through the holes. One thing is for sure...If you need meds, this likely isn't a technique I'd recommend, as training takes time.

Could you lay the trellis flat, and make the process much easier...? (a horizontal scrog)

Thanks for the reply, Rusty Trichome.

Actually, I do plan on keeping the light source to the side of the trellis.

It IS an indoor grow, and I am specifically exploring the uncharted area of vertical scrogs.

Seems like one of the challenges with scrogs is that it is constantly fighting the natural tendency of the plants to want to grow UP. So even though scrogs and lst do wondrous things, at some point the plants are still growing up towards the light, and there is that variation of height that challenges the light.

This variation in height is, as I see it, what causes the need for a high-heat lighting source. And in my mind, every bit of heat is wasted energy. Energy that is going into the atmosphere instead of into the thc.

I want to use T5's, but T5's set up to be very uniformly close, and uniformly VERY close. IOW, one inch away from the buds.

This, of course, is the theory behind the sog. But the drawback of the sog approach is that it (1) requires many plants, and (2) requires a lot of horizontal space with much wasted vertical space.

So what I am exploring is going to a trellis, or vertical scrog. The plants will be against a wall, and the T5's will be hanging vertically, with a scrog netting (trellis) in between.

I plan to lst early to get four shoots growing earnestly up (see my first post for more on this aspect), but the ultimate idea is to (ideally), have each shoot filling the trellis with nodes along the way.

When I switch to flowering, each bud will be sitting pleasantly one inch from the light, with the most efficient exchange of electricity for potency possible.

So, that is the game I'm playing, and, yes, it is different. But I feel it has taken the best of the different growing methods here and could possibly lead to a new way of growing.

What do you think? Any suggestions on how to improve the likelihood that I end up with a wall of fat buds?

And, yes, it is for meds (CA mmj), and not for aesthetics. I am open to spending considerable time training -- though, as I'm asking in my original post, I may be overestimating the complexity of training necessary -- but figure that training will only be necessary for the vegetative weeks. Once in flowering, I'm expecting to see nothing but a bunch of girls sunning themselves twelve hours a day, growing fat and resiny.

Interesting!

Lemme pull up a wall.;)

Aloha,
Weezard

Welcome, Weezard,

I'm honored to have a wise one like yourself take notice. By all means, pull up a 'wall.':thumbsup:I welcome any suggestions or insights!

I really like your signature: "Plants do things for a reason....." That is what I was noticing when I saw all those scrogs with the dear girls struggling to "break free and reach the light." I wanta see if I can take advantage of their 'reasoning' and make us both happy.:smokin:

(Don't mind me if I get too philosophical . . . its just the sativa talking.)

As I'm thinking it through, it seems like the key to maximizing yield using this method would be to work to minimize internodal spacing. As the shoots work their way up during the vegetative cycle, I want the girls dropping as many nodes as possible. Then, with the lst primed (auxin-triggered) buds settle in for flowering, they're all as likely to be primed to soak in as much energy as possible.

So during flowering, with nodal spacing set, the more the nodes the better, and each node is an equal and efficient partner in converting watts-to-lumens-to-thc.

So, at the moment, I'm exploring ways of minimizing internodal spacing. I understand that temperature of the roots is one variable that effects spacing. As you may see from my userid, I'm going to be using aeroponics, so am going to keep a close eye on reservoir temperature to ensure I can maximize that variable. I'm already planning on working evaporative cooling in the design of the reservoir. May need to eventually employ a more active cooling strategy.

One good thing about working with T5's is the low heat, but I want to keep the roots at optimum temperature. (I guess you could say that is the experiment I'm trying, trying to find a grow technique that optimizes all variable.)

Other thoughts on how to increase nodes would be appreciated.

Another issue I'll have to face is how best to deal with the growth spurt. Seems like it'll be like trying to dock a large boat. Ideally, you want to end up JUST along side the dock with the bow just 'kissing' the shore.

With the grow, seems like the challenge would be to anticipate just when to cut the (light) throttle.

I'm tempted to try a bushmaster approach, but would love to be able to 'kiss' the top of the scrog by natural means.

Doesn't really matter which way you do the Scrog, horizontal, vertical, up-side down :D, you will still have to train the plants to grow into the screen. Plants want to grow vertically, yes, but they also want to grow outwards. Therefore you will have to train the growth from the opposite side of the plant where the screen is to make this effective.

Personally, I don't think you can get the full potential out of vertical scrog with the T5's. The benefit of vertical scrogs really comes with HID's, because you are able to use 360 degrees of the light. For example:

1000w HID has a footprint of about 5ft x 5ft, and is usually kept 24in. to 36in. from the tops. That gives you 25 sq. ft. of lit space.

Now, turn it vertically, hung about 3 feet off the ground, with chicken wire wrapped around it, 36" away. Now, the surface area of your lit space is: 5ft (height) x 3ft x 2 x pi (circumference of the scrog), which now gives you about 90 sq. ft. of lit area.

There are many examples of them all around the different cannabis forums, so I wouldn't really call it an 'uncharted' territory. I haven't looked into them so much, but from what I have seen, it's always HID. Maybe you can find someone who has used T5s, and if so, send me the link :).

It sounds like a nice project, but if you're only using T5s, maybe you can do a side-by-side vertical and horizontal and see how that goes.

Happy growing :jointsmile:

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Originally Posted by AeroManT5

Welcome, Weezard,

I'm honored to have a wise one like yourself take notice. By all means, pull up a 'wall.':thumbsup:I welcome any suggestions or insights!

I really like your signature: "Plants do things for a reason....." That is what I was noticing when I saw all those scrogs with the dear girls struggling to "break free and reach the light." I wanta see if I can take advantage of their 'reasoning' and make us both happy.:smokin:


That quote was but one of the gems we got from Weedhound.
This board burns a li'l dimmer since she passed. :(
RIP Weedy.

(Don't mind me if I get too philosophical . . . its just the sativa talking.)

As I'm thinking it through, it seems like the key to maximizing yield using this method would be to work to minimize internodal spacing. As the shoots work their way up during the vegetative cycle, I want the girls dropping as many nodes as possible. Then, with the lst primed (auxin-triggered) buds settle in for flowering, they're all as likely to be primed to soak in as much energy as possible.

So during flowering, with nodal spacing set, the more the nodes the better, and each node is an equal and efficient partner in converting watts-to-lumens-to-thc.

So, at the moment, I'm exploring ways of minimizing internodal spacing. I understand that temperature of the roots is one variable that affects spacing. As you may see from my userid, I'm going to be using aeroponics, so am going to keep a close eye on reservoir temperature to ensure I can maximize that variable. I'm already planning on working evaporative cooling in the design of the reservoir. May need to eventually employ a more active cooling strategy.

I didn't see any corelation 'tween root temps and nodal spacing.
Then again, I didn't look for that.
I saw excellent stretch and internodal spacing control by controlling the Red:blue ratio with LEDs at different stages of growth.

Not sure how to do that with T5s
Might try getting some blue tubes and switching them in as needed.

One good thing about working with T5's is the low heat, but I want to keep the roots at optimum temperature. (I guess you could say that is the experiment I'm trying, trying to find a grow technique that optimizes all variable.)

Other thoughts on how to increase nodes would be appreciated.

See above.:D

Another issue I'll have to face is how best to deal with the growth spurt. Seems like it'll be like trying to dock a large boat. Ideally, you want to end up JUST along side the dock with the bow just 'kissing' the shore.

Gettin' da whoa ahead of da impact is furthur complicated by several variables.
A big one being the strain.
Then there's ambient air temps, daylength, light intensity and color mix, nutes, root room, RH/barometric pressure/transpitation rate.
Phew! I gonna take a nap now.:jointsmile:

With the grow, seems like the challenge would be to anticipate just when to cut the (light) throttle.

No cut. Modify.

I'm tempted to try a bushmaster approach, but would love to be able to 'kiss' the top of the scrog by natural means.

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You got heart, brah.
Been dere, did dat, yah? :)

But, not vertical, and not T5s.:thumbsup:
I regret much of it as it offended my sense of laziness.:rastasmoke:

Sprayers, pumps n timers are a royal PIA.:(
But then, so is SCROG.
(Us farmers expects a li'l trouble but you jus' filled out 2 applications.:D)


Left dat all behin' and now jus' pop an airstone into a 5 gal. bucket o nutes.
Den I drop my many headed, (I "nip da heck out of them in veg), "Debutantes in coco" into da bucket about an inch from da bubbly surface.
Let da roots grow into da water and stand back.

As BTF said a side by side would be useful to us all.
(Does not sound easy to do fo' dis kine sing I t'ink.)


And Rusty's advice is highly prized by those who know the difference.:cool:

You are in good company here:).

Aloha

Weezard

bigtopsfinn,

Thanks for the suggestions!

I have seen those vertical scrogs you are talking about. Again, though, with plants in the scrogs you are talking about, you are keeping the light 24 to 36 inches away.

I want the light to be just 1 inch away. That way, no lumens have to waste their lives just trying to reach the bud.

The reason you can't do that with an HID, etc, is because you would fry the buds and burn down the house. It is a constant balance between lumens produced and heat of the bulb.

Well, with T5's, you can. They are super efficient. How can you tell? Just touch one. How much electricity was lost to heat?

After all of the research I've done, I think the reason that T5's haven't been given the props they deserve is because people are so far, in large part, imagining them as a inferior replacement for an HID. I'm trying to design my grow technique AROUND the strength of each element in the system.

The goal is to maximize the number of bud sites per square foot, and then plug each 'directly' into it's own 'sun.' I have planned the grow so each bud will be no more than an inch and a quarter from 5,000 lumens.

So that is where the 'uncharted territory' comes in. I want to see just how high a yield (and what quality and potency) can be achieved if every aspect of the grow is dialed in. I design and analyze systems professionally -- though not cannabis systems :D When I get into something new, I try to see what is 'known' by those folks who have been working in the area for years . . . and see how to fit their latest wisdom into the best possible configuration.

Like a grower friend of mine said when I shared this with him, this has the potential to create something really interesting.

With all that said, you mentioned that the plants want to grow outward. Exactly. So imagine a grow (in, say, a closet) with the wall, and three inches from the wall is a nice, tall, sativa. Three inches further out from the wall, is a vertical scrog/trellis. One inch further out is a 8-tube, 48-inch T5 fixture. (I plan on putting a sheet of plexiglass between the ladies and their "sun" to keep the over-eager at safe as can be.)

Now, I know that this strict measure of inches will ebb and flow as I learn how they grow in this environment. That is built into the design. But consider this: This takes into consideration the natural tendency of the plant to growth both up and out. I'm letting them grow up as fast as they want to (though I'll work to slow them down). As for the grow out, between the wall and their beloved source of light, they will grow towards the light. During training, I plan to just weave them back into the scrog netting as I go.

So with that all in mind, and assuming, say, a foot of grow width -- creating a vertical screen of 1' x 4' -- this method could produce four square feet of bud in less than a single square foot of closet floor space.

If what I hear some of the old-timers say is true -- that you can get about two ounces per square foot -- this could produce eight ounces off one plant in that less-than-one-square-foot of closet space. And that is assuming that this concept of dialing in all the variables (NASA style) doesn't boost the yield even higher.

Call me crazy, but I am excited about the project ahead.

Weezard,

We musta both been typing at the same time. When I started typing, your post wasn't there yet, now it is! What magic these strange machines make!:stoned:

Sounds like Weedhound was a wise woman. Respects . . .

Yeah, I can see that I've set myself out into rocky territory, but that is the thing this mind of mine seems to get excited about. Going with the flow there, too, and like to feed it as much new and exciting stuff as I can.

I know I'm trying something difficult and challenging, and while I may sound like I have it figured out, I know (as someone versed in 'the ways' like yourself) that there will be many stumbles and learning experiences ahead. That is why I am here picking all your brains trying to avoid a failure.

As for using LED's to regulate nodal spacing, one of the areas I wanted to explore was what exact mix of the spectrum I should shoot for. I can play around with blues and reds with the bulbs. What would be the ideal mix of the two during veg, and how would it be different during flowering -- Mix-wise?

And, yes, modify the throttle (not cut) :thumbsup:

It sounds interesting, especially if you can produce 8 oz. off one plant in one square foot with 432watts of T5s, sounds almost too good to be true :)

One thing I was wondering about, is what kind of area you're working with, and how many of these setups were you planning to use? A pic of the layout would be nice :D

I'll definitely be following along :jointsmile:

bigtopsfinn,

Yes, I know it sounds too good to be true.:) I'll have to see it work before I even convert myself. But it sounds like a fun project to explore.

I'm a couple weeks away from making my grow buys, so I'm still in the research & development phase. Once I start assembling I'll definitely take some pix and share.

Well, back to crawling around all that wisdom on this web thing.

Have you sucessfully grown cannabis in the past? Do you have any practical growing experience? Don't you think that after what you've already been told that you are likely barking up the wrong tree?

If all you want to do is dick around with the ladies, I'd say go for it, as it will be a learning experience regardless of outcome. But if you are in need of the best meds you can grow...this experiment will set you back a few weeks or more. Stress and 'training' delays harvest dates.

Just because you are growing vertical, you will not cheat the 'grams per square foot' goals, in case that's your objective. But it is a great way to lower yield and delay harvest, IMHO.

Good luck with it, But if these are your meds, I'd learn to optimize my grow before attempting an experiment with the wrong equipment.

Actually, Rusty, I don't think I'm barking up the wrong tree.

A different one from yours, it sounds like, but I'm reading what ALL kinds of different folks are saying, and I'm using thirty years of experience working with 'very new things,' and I'm trying an experiment.

Why does that upset you so? I am not trying to insult you by listening to other folk's wisdom.

Thanks for your concern, but I don't think your condescension is appropriate.

No skin off my teeth. As I said, if all you're doing is dicking around, perhaps you'll learn something other's have already learned. But what do I know...?

Ignoring the insight of those with more experience is folly, but good luck in your endeavour. :thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by AeroManT5

Actually, Rusty, I don't think I'm barking up the wrong tree.

A different one from yours, it sounds like, but I'm reading what ALL kinds of different folks are saying, and I'm using thirty years of experience working with 'very new things,' and I'm trying an experiment.

Why does that upset you so? I am not trying to insult you by listening to other folk's wisdom.

Thanks for your concern, but I don't think your condescension is appropriate.

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heya... I know that Rusty's prolly fergot more than most pups like us will ever know, but I'd like to see the outcome that you're working on... I have a slightly different thing in mind with cfls instead of t5s..

go fer it!!!

[and whoever said that dickin' with the ladies isn't a lotta fun anyways?]

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Originally Posted by CovertCarpenter

[and whoever said that dickin' with the ladies isn't a lotta fun anyways?]

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Usually it's those inexperienced growers that have screwed-up their meds attempting a bitchen-sounding experiment or a miracle snake-oil, that get hurt the most.

Ah hears ya, Rusty. Tho I am a bit of a no0b mesef, I've been 'around' proper commercial grows now for like the last 10-12 years. As much as I like experimenting, I also wanna bring in a crop of healthy ladies with as little muss'n'fuss as I can manage... so I am all ears as far as any advice you and the other yodas on this site can provide...

I still have to sift the wheat from the chaff, info-wise, but I've learned more here than just about anywhere else on the 'net... and found more pitfalls that I am (hopefully) avoiding.... like the aforementioned snake-oils... ;) Am about to add some molasses to my nute mix, as soon as I can find some of the /right/ stuph.

(c)C :chainsaw:

For those interested in perusal:

My 'build' thread:
http://boards.cannabis.com/grow-log/...-vanished.html

My 'grow' thread:
http://boards.cannabis.com/grow-log/...ng-partay.html