TRY TO IDENTIFY THIS NUTE PROBLEM! With Pictures For Your Viewing Pleasure...

Hi everybody. I'm really hoping someone can help me identify this problem. I have read countless posts, talked to several hydroponic store owners, and read lots of information on how plants and nutrients interact. After tons of horticulture research I have a suspicion of what the problem is, but after screwing things up already Iâ??ve decided to ask the community for advise on what to do.

I have seen many pictures of marijuana plant problems, but I have never a picture that looked like what I have. I am about 6 weeks into flowering. I wasnâ??t able to get a HPS setup until 14 days into flowering, so call it 5 weeks.

DOES ANYONE HAVE ANY IDEAS?

The Lowdown:

I am growing in soil. I chose Power Flower although I was told not to. Apparently it is for outdoor growers. â??Too hot,â?� they said. Well, the veg stage was incredible. Leaves the size of your head, excellent color, close node spacing, beautiful plants grown under 40w 5100k tubes. About 7 weeks into veg one of the plants (growing 5 different strains) started showing whatâ??s in pics in the older leaves, starting at the bottom of the plant and slowly progressing up. Initially, I cut these leaves off as the problem appeared fearing bacteria or something crazy like that.

The problem has just now started appearing on the fan leaves on the branches, whereas before it was only on the fan leaves on the primary stem. ALL the buds on all the plants still show no signs. This problem has now progressed to every plant in the garden, starting at the bottom and moving up the plant. 15 days ago two of the plants starting yellowing significantly and it appears bud growth has stopped, or slowed to crawl on all plants. Most of the hairs have started turning brown prematurely. The petioles of the affects leaves are dark red/purple and more stiff than the rest, although not brittle. There are dark spots that dry out and turn into necrotic lesions that appear slightly different from plant to plant, which in about a weeks time turn to light-brown, paper-thin, waterless leaves that I eventually cut off. They are sufferingâ?¦

How I think I screwed them up:

I didnâ??t use any fertilizer in the veg stage, because of the Power Flower soil, and because fertilizer is god-awful expensive. The soil bag says, â??No feeding required for 60 daysâ?� and its loaded with all the stuff one would normally mix together, in theory.

When I first saw this problem I went to my hydro guy with a leaf asking about the lesions. He said it looked like spider-mites (never had them) but he was more concerned with the purple petiole. He recommended Cal-Mag Plus. I read the direction aloud, â??â?¦with every wateringâ?� and he agreed. I recently did some research and found that it is a â??soil stabilizerâ?� similar to adding dolomite lime to your soil, but I didnâ??t realize until then that I probably never should have used it. I use well water from a mountainous region. I just bought a TDS/PPM meter and it measures 75ppm. I found that Cal-Mag is really for hydro growers who use RO waterâ??to turn it back into well water, and to compound things Iâ??m growing in soil. Iâ??ve been using it in every watering since the plants were 5â?� tall. I stopped using it 10 days ago.

And thenâ?¦

About three weeks ago I finally invested in a bloom fertilizer, Advanced Nutrients Sensi Bloom Part A & B, assuming the nutrients in the soil had pooped out. I started with a 600ppm mix, the lowest one recommended on the bottle. I watered with the nutes and two days later there was a noticeable growth spurt.:D I got greedy and bumped up the solution to 700ppm and watered two days later (too soon). And then I had a few too many drinks,:wtf: and bumped up the solution to 1000ppm and watered lightly two days later (too soon again). So, two days after that, nute burn and over-watering symptoms!:mad: I waited three days and flushed them with four gallons of water each (they are in 2-gallon pots) and added more Cal-Mag to the water I flush with, like an idiot! Thatâ??s when I did my Cal-Mag study and found out I never should have used it.

The lesions are taking over new leaves daily and two entire plants (except the buds) have turned bright green/yellow.

The room stays between 75.5 F during light-time and 64.3 during night time. 50% humidity day and night. Excellent ventilation and circulation. Drinkable water of unknown mineral content/possibly high in iron, Power Flower Soil, Absolutely no mites/pests. The problem is not due to light burn or heat stress.

The 430w HPS lights makes for horrible pictures. Iâ??ve corrected the color in a few of them. Itâ??s interesting to see the same problem across different strains. Hopefully someone will be able recognize it. My research has led me to believe I have a potassium deficiency possibly due to lockout from magnesium, but its just a guess and the last thing I want to do is add more nutes and kill themâ?¦

Any help would be greatly appreciated! :hippy:

Ask me for more pics if you need them.....

See if this helps.

Marijuana Plant Abuse

or this:

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i don't think you mentioned ph in your post. go get a ph meter and correct your water / nutes before you water. 6.3 going in. I keep hearing to not stress about what it is coming out.

I doubt the Cal Mag has anything to do w/it as long as you are 10ml/G or less or your water is really hard to begin with.

next time use sunshine mix or fox farms instead of the pre-fert stuff as that's harder to control.

i was going to say same thing as copobo....all issues start with ph..unless they are from pests...if you are going to address any issue you need to start with ph first...6.2-6.5 is ideal for soil! :thumbsup:

and try growing all one strain then you can learn its tendencies of wants and needs...by growing 5 strains its hard to focus what works best with each one! jmo....i quit groqwing multiple strains in one tray long ago and best move i ever made!:smokin:

Take a piece of white paper and put it underneath your plant and give it a good shaking. Then take the paper and see if you can see anything moving. if so you have mites and can look at other post on how to get rid of them.

You could've gotten away with some of that nute burn if you had flushed as soon as symptoms arrived. The few days just left em to burn. Ph is key with nutes so get that dialed in:thumbsup:How much longer do they got in flower?

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Originally Posted by jtsik330

You could've gotten away with some of that nute burn if you had flushed as soon as symptoms arrived. The few days just left em to burn. Ph is key with nutes so get that dialed in:thumbsup:How much longer do they got in flower?

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I don't have a fancy pH meter yet, just the drops. Looks like some of the strains will be done before others--fast growers and slow growers...maybe another 3-5 weeks, and now that they have nute burn maybe and extra week or two due to recovery. This is my first indoor grow so we'll have to wait and see.

Did you OD them on Magnesium Sulfate? (epsom salt)

Whether sprayed or watered-in...what products have you tried using to green 'em back up?

I'd go get a freshwater aquarium ph test kit as soon as posible, as you need to monitor your ph. Doesn't work for checking runoff water (the tinting of runoff skews results) but ingoing ph is very important.
After you test the water, I'd get the proper goop (pool chemicals are unacceptable) to adjust that water to within acceptable range. (6.3 to 6.9 for peat-based soils)
Then, after all that...I'd flush the crap out of 'em with properly ph'd water, raise the HID lights a tad, (less stress) and hope they recover.

I don't know if I OD'd them on Cal-Mag. That is my guess, and that's why I am asking for help. From what I've read it seems to be a potassium deficiency compounded by over-fert. Can excess Mg cause this? Or, was the soil too hot to begin with? The Power Flower ingredients are Sedge Peat, Sphagnum Peat, Perlite, Bone Meal, Feather Meal, Bat Guano, Seabird Guano, Rock Phosphate w/humates, Lime and Fossilized Kelp (Montmorillonite).

I was able to find some pH test strips for spas late last night. My pH drops read about 6.5 on a scale of 0.5pH increments. The test strips measured 6.2 on a scale of 0.2ph increments. That's about perfect, right?

I don't think I flushed them enough, and I added Cal-Mag to the first flush water too. I'm going to flush again with straight water and do 6 gallons each. What do you think? Raising the light sounds like a good idea as well.

Too much Mg will lock-out nutrients, I'd ease-up on the CalMag. <doh> Ever think of trying molasses? (provides the same stuff but cheaper)

Wait till soil is dried-out a tad and see if any roots are still actively growing (white tips) before the flush. A wet rootball falls apart when checking the roots, so let it dry first. Don't tear-up the rootball checking, just take a quick look. Flush and resume nutrients if looking ok. (perhaps 1/2 strength twice a week)

Worse case...roots are damaged and leaves won't recover. Eventually, I'd harvest and re-veg, including trimming the roots and a good flush once in it's new pot.

Sounds like a soil mix similar to mine. I use it for both vegetative and reproductive stages. (vegging and flowering) Any soil you use will take some getting used to.
With a well-rounded organic soil, you'll likely want to transplant into final container a couple of weeks early to help burn-off some nitrogen before flowering stage hits hard. The ladies will stretch for the first couple/few weeks of flower, but will fill-in if given enough time.

Thanks for your help on this, Mr. Trichome.

I haven't had the guts to check the root ball until now. Here's some pics...

What do you think? The brown stuff on the bottom is actually just dirt, if you look really close. I use the hydroton lava rocks as a drainage expediter.

This is the driest plant I had, and it also happened to be the one that first exhibited symptoms of the lesions. This plant was an experiment to see if cutting all the affected leaves off right away would 1) speed cure of the problem, or 2) shrink bud size. It was certainly number 2. The buds are really small, but the trichomes certainly are not. Hereâ??s a pic of that too. It looked so nice in the sunlight. :smokin:

Good job with the new step. (checking roots) Just don't drop the rootball, and careful with branches. ;)

Roots are looking good with what looks like plenty of room. Shouldn't need to chop-n-re-grow, lol.

I'd flush and wait a week, then resume 1/2 nutes twice a week. Have some patience during recovery.

More medium equals more rootspace. Ever try putting the drainage rocks in the drip tray instead of inside the pot? Much easier on transplant day, (picking out rocks can damage the roots) and after harvest. (when you have to fish-out the rocks for cleaning and re-use)
You do have to watch ingoing water and it's runoff, but that's an easy adjustment worth making. :thumbsup:

I want to thank everyone for their help and advise.

I just flushed with 7 gallons of water each. They are in 2 gallon pots. After 20 hours the 2 plants that turned yellow are already visibly recovering. Their leaf veins have a new green color which is spreading! Even in the yellowest of leaves! In the leaves with lesions, the lesions have stopped growing and have turned light brown. They used to grow with a dark color until consuming the leaf. This is good! Pics below���.

Iâ??m afraid to use any fertilizer with this hot soil. Maybe just Sweet from now on.

I still have yet to hear anyoneâ??s guess on the nute deficiency/excess I am experiencing. Has anyone ever seen this type of nute burn? The lesions are atypical and occurred well before I used any nutrients. Has anyone ever seen this kind of nute burn???

Sorry, I seem to have lost this thread last week.

Would recommend not using the Sweet as a stand-alone additive/nutrient. Start your ladies on the AN nutes you got, and let 'em recover.

Sweet, CalMag, CalMag Plus, and many carbo-load products are all derivitives of molasses. (likely says it's sugar beet derived or something similar in the ingredients...) Too much magnesium will lock-out other nutrients...which results in the yellowing of the plant.

Scared to ask, but how are they now?

R.T. its me again;dexter68. wanted to ask you if theres a benifit to putting your plant in complete darkness b-4 the chop.just seen u were on here , know that you know that i know u know.yeah.

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Originally Posted by Rusty Trichome

Sorry, I seem to have lost this thread last week.

Would recommend not using the Sweet as a stand-alone additive/nutrient. Start your ladies on the AN nutes you got, and let 'em recover.

Sweet, CalMag, CalMag Plus, and many carbo-load products are all derivitives of molasses. (likely says it's sugar beet derived or something similar in the ingredients...) Too much magnesium will lock-out other nutrients...which results in the yellowing of the plant.

Scared to ask, but how are they now?

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Hey Rusty, Thanks for getting back to me. The plants are all doing much better now! Today is exactly 7 days from the big flush. 2 days ago, fresh white pistols began appearing in the buds of the most severely affected plants, and the buds are starting to grow again! Whoohoo! :thumbsup: The leaf veins of the indicas are slowly turning dark green again and the very yellow leaves of the sativas are turning green again all over, but slowly.

It soil was finally dry yesterday, so I waited until this morning to water. I noticed that some of the leaves that had began turning green were turning back to yellow. They've had no water for 7 days. I decided to add ONLY Sweet to the water at 7.5ml/gallon. The recommended dosage is 10ml/G for veg and 20ml/G for flower. I did notice it has Mg but I thought the Sulfur was what did the trick in Sweet. Damn, I did it again!

Well, that we know all about the problems Iâ??ve had with this grow, which is near the end, I have some more pictures of my new babies. See below, and click twice for a super close-up...This morning during watering, I noticed two of them are exhibiting the exact same lesions/necrotic spots on the veins as the much older plants! They are 16 days old after pre-germination.

The seedlings are planted in Black Gold Organic Seedling Mix (Ingredients: 70-80% Canadian Sphagnum peat moss, perlite, dolomite lime, and yucca extract as a wetting agent). They don't get any nutrients in the water, and there's basically none in the soil. <b>So, whatâ??s wrong with my water?</b> pH 6.2-6.5 (working on getting a pH pen for an accurate reading) Well water. There is red dirt all over this part of California, indicating a possible high iron content.

I read someone's post on putting high-powered magnets in the water to pull the iron out. I did that but didn't notice any iron on the magnets after 24 hours, not that I might anyway. Does this work?

And, check out the super-purple stemsâ?¦WTF? :(

sorry for interupting this thread. how do you post on here, I can only reply to threads.

No, the magnet won't work. Flushing helped though, I'm sure.
Sweet is not a nutrient. It's an additive that if overused, will kill your ladies.
The necrotic spots sound like possible overwatering issues, which can lead to root rot. Let 'em dry between flushes, waterings and feedings.

Leave seedlings alone (properly ph'd water only) till 4th or 5th set of leaves. You'll kill them otherwise. No additives, no nutrients, no sprays...

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Originally Posted by dexter68

R.T. its me again;dexter68. wanted to ask you if theres a benifit to putting your plant in complete darkness b-4 the chop.

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Some believe in the practice, but I've seen no evidence it's worth the effort. Perhaps it's strain-dependant. I'm guessing it likely changes the CBD:CBN ratio, but am doubtful it is doing what everyone is wanting the darkness to do. (increase trichomes)

I've even seen some that put 'em into darkness for a couple of weeks. :wtf:

That's the main problem with wives tales...too hard to prove, too hard to disprove...so it must be true in the eyes of the blind believer. :thumbsup:

I've only used Sweet twice. The last time was yesterday morning at 1/4 recommended dosage.

I always let my plants dry before watering, the exception being when I was finally able to afford nutes and over-watered and over-ferted.

Seedlings should never dry all the way out, but I do wait until the top of the soil is dry about 1/4-1/2" down. Seedling soil is light and fluffy, and I find that when it starts to dry, it dries out very quickly. I had just watered the seedlings before I noticed the little brown spots. That's when I took the picture. Did you look at the large-large view of the seedling close-ups? See those little brown spots? And see those dark-purple stems? I have NOT used any nutes, sprays, etc..

The ONLY common element between the two crops (the flowering crop & the seedling crop) is the water. There must be something in the water...or not in the water. I do not use hot water from the water heater. No crusties on my faucets. We drink it everyday.

I can't afford an RO system or an official water test, and my pH seems to be OK. It measures only 75ppm on average with the TDS pen. The average tap water in the US is 200-400ppm with "hard" water beginning at 200ppm so Iâ??d like to think 75 ainâ??t bad. How else can I check my water? :confused:

Just looking at the seedlings I can see overwatering. And likely if you keep spraying them, you'll develop mold on the leaves. Too much care, not enough patience. ;)

The purple stems don't bother me nearly as much as your using Sweet on seedlings. Your plants are too young for any nutrients and additives, including Sweet. I never even use a molasses product (actually I use molasses) till plants are at least a month old. Sweet, Carbo-Load, CalMag and plenty of other "necessary ammendments" are all molasses or synthetic molasses products. (sugar beet or sugar cane derived)

Once you transplant them into larger containers, (in about two weeks) moisture regulation get's easier.

The purple can be from cold temperatures, PO4 defecient, or it could be from a strain that purples. Do not try to chemically correct this, as it will likely cause more problems than you are solving.

Relax....:jointsmile:

Come to think of it...are we now talking about your ladies or your seedlings...?

I posted the seedling pics because they show the same problem as the ladies. I thought it would be a good cross-reference to the problem I am experiencing since the only common element is the water.

I DO NOT use anything on the seedlings besides plain water. No additives, NOTHING. I do not spray them, and they are not in a humidity dome, so they dry out quickly. What signs of over-watering do you see?

A hydroponics shop is moving into my town! I met the owners at the local bar last night and after talking to them they may have touched on something relevant: Iron Bacteria. Ever heard of it? Apparently its everywhere but can be worse in some places.

In the meantime I've purchased some distilled water to use instead of my well water. Once again I've been told that I HAVE TO use Cal-Mag Plus when using distilled water. Agreed?

Thanks R.T. Im learning alot just by reading your post.Im not going 2 use the darkness period b4 chop.The next chop that is.Ive got 4 Iranian Autos two feet tall two weeks into 12/12,and doing fine. This is my first grow.ive only harvested one Autoflower ,and was not a high yield because of overtriming;thanks to my country ass believing what i read on onother site.still very potent.havnt trimmed other 4.just letting them do there thing,and they are huge.I ran out of nutrients wich were;continuous feed formula;cv65 d(2).macro nutrients.with a content of Total nitrogen;12.58% . Avalible Phosphoric Acid-p2Os-1.44% . Soluble Potash k2o-5.11% . My question is ; do you think a product called ; Superthrive would b just as good?Like to post pics . still no camera.I have a camera phone , and 2 day i will try and e-mail pics 2 my computer,and then here?I swear ther is hardly anything simple anymore.I thank you 4 not being stingy with your mind.

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Originally Posted by bobojones

What signs of over-watering do you see?

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Oh, I don't know...perhaps it's the seedling's washed-out green (yellowing) leaves that are curled-under. The color of the soil says it pretty saturated too.

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Originally Posted by bobojones

A hydroponics shop is moving into my town! I met the owners at the local bar last night and after talking to them they may have touched on something relevant: Iron Bacteria. Ever heard of it? Apparently its everywhere but can be worse in some places.

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I'm willing to bet he has a cure for this condition, (rust) for a nominal price. IMHO, not even close to relevant unless your water well is solid iron. Perhaps he was just drunk, but I wouldn't trust him after an answer like that. (did you Google his response...?)

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Originally Posted by bobojones

In the meantime I've purchased some distilled water to use instead of my well water. Once again I've been told that I HAVE TO use Cal-Mag Plus when using distilled water. Agreed?

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I'd google your local water conditions, and if nothing unplesant, would re-consider using the wellwater. Cheaper, and much easier than bottled or R/O. If your wellwater is ok for drinking, it's ok for cannabis once ph adjusted.

CalMag Plus is not necessary till late growth stage or early flowering. CalMag Plus also contains iron. (will feed the bacteria, lol) CalMag plus is a molasses derivative with nothing exceptional about it other than the pricetag.