New to this...should I be concerned?(pic)

Hey I just got my mmj card and set up to grow so I am very new to this and I am concerned about what my 3 s. diesels are doing. All 3 look the same. No other plant in my room looks even close to this. I'm using canna coco with the canna line of products. I'm growing in smart pots. I water when I feel the pots about as light as a pot with just coco no water. The plants are under a 1000hps enclosed light at "24 above with inline ducting and fans to cool. Room temp is a steady 76 degrees and 37% humidity at almost all times. I also have ample fresh air supply from the outside into my room. Any thoughts or help would GREATLY be appreciated.

it looks to me that you burnt them with too much nutes. they look way beyond recovery

The plant are only 10 days old and were given nutes last 5 days ago. The nutes given were given according to the directions. Think I still burned them? Keep in mind this is only 3 out of 18 plants I have and the only 3 sour diesels. I have given them all the same water, nutes lighting etc. I'm bummed out I might loose this strain. :(

......also they are still growing and pumping out new branches. THey are actually growing tall rather quickly...just all of the new growth starts this upward curl about 2 days after they show themselves...

Can't be bummed about losing a strain that doesn't fit your growing style :thumbsup: Maybe they are a little more sensitive than the others, and maybe culling them now is a good thing. Not every strain suits every grower:jointsmile:

good point, just not a fan of failing ;) plus I enjoy that strain very much...lol

That my friend, looks like white powder mold. When it gets real bad it will curl the leaves. I have found that it likes some strains more than others. Diesel is one that I have the most WPM trouble with.

that looks just like the 3 of my plants except they are only 10 days old...any chance to salvage, or any good remedies? Do I have to worry about my other plants? How does one get this? and how can I prevent it? also it looks like your leaves are curling down? mine are going up and folding in half like tacos...are still talking about the same problem?

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I water when I feel the pots about as light as a pot with just coco no water.

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That's a problem. Coco is a hydroponic medium. You can't let it dry out between waterings like you (must) do with soil. Even when it seems "saturated" coco holds enough air to maintain healthy roots. You can water every day. Some folks do it twice a day.

If you've parched your roots, the damage may be irreparable. Are your other plants in coco as well?

If indoors get rid of them. Fast. Check leaf bottoms. WPM can go through a room like shit through a goose. Some strains are more resistant than others. The plant I showed had more WPM on the bottoms of the leaves so they curl down. Carefully check your other plants. A faint dusting of white powder is all you need to see.

Go into Plant Problems and look for White Powder Mold. You are not the first to deal with this.

ok I just went down and thoroughly inspected those plants. There is no white powder on the leaves. The leaves really don't have any burn marks on them except for what they came with. The leaves do though, however, seem to have color disappearing in some of them. I did notice on a few others the leaves curling up, but they are all very healthy green and kicking ass.

All of my plants are in the canna coco. I'm also using the whole canna "system" of nutes, which when explained to me are very hard to f'up feeding and over fertilizing my plants, that's why I'm spending the extra bucks on the stuff. But my plants have only been fertilized once in 9 days anyhow and watered 2 times.

Thanks everyone for your input...I greatly appreciate and respect any advise on the matter as I only want the best for my lil ones!

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Originally Posted by Jord0713

The plant are only 10 days old and were given nutes last 5 days ago. The nutes given were given according to the directions. Think I still burned them? Keep in mind this is only 3 out of 18 plants I have and the only 3 sour diesels. I have given them all the same water, nutes lighting etc. I'm bummed out I might loose this strain. :(

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You gave nutes at 5 days? That's a little early. what did the instructions call for? It's always good to start with half of what the instructions say. My bet is you are over feeding, especially since you say you have upward curled leaves on the others. Different strains need different things, so chances are you SD needs a hell of a lot LESS nutes than everything else.

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Originally Posted by Jord0713

But my plants have only been fertilized once in 9 days anyhow and watered 2 times.

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sounds like you might have poor drainage if you only need to water twice in nine days. Try adding some more perlite when you transplant. I still think you fed too early, but saying a plant has ONLY been fertilized once in 9 days should be completely normal. You only need to feed once a week with a weak solution to start.

Other possibilities:
-lack of circulation/fresh air
-Ph fluctuation

hope this helps a little, I just woke up :jointsmile:

That is great info...thanks! I just read the instructions on my nutes, and went on canna's web site and printed out a grow guide...Canna actually has you giving the plants 7.2 ml/gal of canna a and canna b, 16 ml/gal of rhizotonic at fist start of root formation...I did ALOT of reading on the canna coco line up that i'm using this morning and I am really really impressed and intrigued. Canna products are %100 organic and the produce from their products can actually be certified vegan (not that I personally care) The cana coco looks from what I have read to be a hydro medium, and can be used in pots. I am using a smart pot system, which are 5 gallon pots made of the same material as a weed barrier, so that the roots can get plenty of air. From what I have read it is almost impossible to burn your plants with nutes as long as your using the canna "system" of nutes (canna a&b, rhizotonic cannazyme, and boost), which I am, unless you let your plants run low on water, then from what I understand the nutes can burn your plans. The reason for this is that the coco and the nute system is designed to store your nutes and release them as the plants need. If you let the plant get too dry, especially with my smart pot system, the coco dries from the outside in obviously and in this process it concentrates the nutes as it dries. I think this might be my problem....possibly! I am going to step up my watering, and back down my nutes for the next few days and see what happens. Already since last night my s. diesels are looking better with the little water I splashed on them.

Does anyone else use the Canna coco and the Canna nutes? I would be curious to see someone else's opinion on the stuff. I like what I read about it,my guy at the shop loves the stuff, so I hope I get the results they are saying is possible...:)

In my experience, if there is new growth, it can be saved. I don't think it's powdered mold (especially since you say there is no white powder), i think it was just the light in the photo making it look that way.

If you have the room, let them do their thing for a few weeks....if they continue to look curled up after taking good care (watering correctly, not over nuting, good ph, air flow, etc.) then maybe pull them so you aren't wasting space and nutes. But SD is good...so i feel you on that! :jointsmile:

good luck and keep us posted!

You will need to give them nutes in coco from the very get go. However, plain water in coco is not a good idea. It could look like nute burn, while it is actually a deficiency that causes the burn, then the ph of the medium got screwed when you gave them just water.

What's the source of your water? Does it need CalMag+?

Interesting article below:



Growing on Coco: Busting the Myth
by Ralph B. Par

The Indoor Gardener Magazine Volume 3 - Issue 6

In my travels and correspondence around the world, I find there is much confusion about the use of coconut husk litter, commonly known (after aging) as coco peat or mulch, in crop production. I was first made aware of the produce as a potential additive to mineral soil or light peat mixes in the early 1980s. The thinking then was that it had too many issues to use as a straight mix, but did have some interesting side results when used as a fraction in a potting mix, or as a soil amendment to improve soil structure. It was first introduced to the Royal Botanical Society in 1862 and proved successful initially but dropped out of favor because of its inherent issues. Now it has exploded onto the scene in all manners of sue, from fraction to complete, but what are we dealing with, and why such a delay before it was accepted into the general market?

To start, the physical characteristics of coco are unique, in that it changes its physical and chemical characteristics dramatically over time. Green or newly harvested mulch is actually the dust (and broken fibers) generated by removing the fivers from the husk of a coconut. THis matter is unusable at this point. After several months of decomposition, it begins to take on some usable characteristics: it holds moisture better and releases potassium and other salts slower, down to a reasonable level. Its structure also remains intact. There is a fairly short period from this point during which the coco peat is usable in container plant production.. Ideally, the coco peat has to go further to actually work with the plant correctly, but by then much of the structure is lost and the usable time in situ is severely shortened. While later stages of coco degradation are very acceptable as a soil amendment, the are not suitable for direct use. Structural problems are, however, a small part of the issue.

Water moves from an area of low EC to an area of higher EC in an attempt to balance out or achieve equilibrium; where a semi-permeable membrane isolates the two solutions, only certain elements or molecules can cross, typically a water molecule or smaller (selectively permeable), through the process of osmosis (Fig A). Membrane can also be selectively permeable, allowing certain sizes of particles to pass while restricting others. In typical soils and container mixes, fertilized at recommended levels, the EC of the root zone moisture (which includes nutrients [salts]) is lower than the internal EC of the root cells, allowing water to move, or diffuse, across the barrier membranes. As the root zone's EC reaches the EC levels of the plant, water movement slows and eventually halts. Unfortunately, it does not stop there and can move the other way, but not all. To compensate and get the water in the seawater solution (a solution of water plus many different salts) to move through the plant, the palm concentrates salts in the areas between the cell walls, known as interstitial spaces. This effectively shows an increase in the internal EC while allowing the actual cells to function normally. The process of harvesting the fivers also increases EC levels, because the coconut husks are first soaked in seawater (the most abundant water supply near where coconuts grow), which imparts its salts into every pore of the coconut material. When decomposition occurs, these salts come out in very high amounts, especially potassium, the most prevalent element found as an ion (salt).

All usable nutrients become available to the plant's internal processes as ions, or charged atoms or functional groups like nitrate. Ions affect each other. In fact, they combine in a controlled fashion, in a solution with other ions and no controls, they still combine or associate with other ions of opposite charge. They also affect the availability of each other as similar charges. This is known as antagonism, where one element in a large amount will decrease availability of another in a smaller amount. In this case, as the concentration of potassium increases, the availability of both calcium and magnesium decreases. It is more commonly known as locking out. When combined with the effects of pH and temperature, precipitation of these salts can occur. The effect works the other way. When calcium increases, potassium availability decreases. Additionally, potassium has the ability to almost move at will throughout a plant, as it is mostly unregulated, a characteristic all plants have adapted by harnessing these ions to do work as they move around.

This is all well and good, but how does that affect the use of coconut peat/mulch with plants? As the coco decomposes, it "gives off" salts that increase the EC of the medium, which will result in burning and imbalances in calcium/magnesium and potassium ratios; the "greener" the coco, the worse the problem. About the time this "give off" slows enough to really grow a crop in, the structure has the characteristic of muck peat and requires amendments like perlite, sand, pebbles or other large particles added to it to give the medium air. Also, the state of decomposition is at its highest, so what is left will not last long, and can easily be washed out of the container. We know that if the level of salts AND the ratio of these salts could be controlled at an earlier stage, we would have the advantage of good physical structure and proper nutrient balance.

Coconut peat has some wonderful physical properties that greatly benefit plant growth. To begin, it is renewable - no stripping of nature's resources. It makes use of the final product left over from cultivating and harvesting the much-prized nut. At the right point in its decomposition, coco peat can be used as a stand-alone medium with no need to add perlite or other persistent amendments. Coco peat itself is fairly pH-stable and buffers the pH well, in a very acceptable range for plant growth. WHile they are fairly solid and big early on, once the peat particles are treated and decomposed to a certain point, they are like sponges with micro-pores that hold water, away form the plant roots but available to replenish the larger pores the plant root can access. This effectively limits excess water while retaining water reserves. These particles hold onto no ions, only what may fill and dry on the particles themselves. So as long as the medium is moist , nutrients are available. At the proper point of decomposition, the particles form the perfect combination of air-to-water, because of the different fractions now present, which can actually mean more air space to water pace, with the micro-pores holding a reserve of water, giving a nice water buffer. Unlike peat moss, it has no oil on its surface, so wetting the particle is never an issue. The key in all this is to decompose the particle to the perfect point. The problem is still that the rate of salt release remains high at this perfect point.

Controlling the decomposition process, adding the correct nutrient buffer to adjust the ratio, feeding the plants the proper ratio of nutrients to offset the coco's "giving off" will produce the perfect growing conditions. When the medium is not taken into account, the results can be disastrous. Even when fed correctly, and the correct "buffer" of nutrient ratio set up, just one watering with plain water will wreck the buffer, sending the plant and medium into shock and rapidly escalating the potassium level. Consequently, plants that do not have enough of some ions like calcium (there are several) due to underfeeding or washing out will show a deficiency in these and other elements. Meanwhile, potassium builds up the plant tissue, ultimately leading to margin burning on the leaf surface, mostly at the tip. The first thing the inexperienced grower assumes is that he is overfeeding and has salt issues. He will decrease the feed concentration and leach the medium. This, of course, magnifies the problem and makes it worse. The key to proper coco growing is to use the right feed to balance the products the coco gives off. Think not only about availability, but about the ratio of one mineral to another as well. It is also important to water correctly.

Coco peat holds about 33% more moisture then similar grades of peat-based mediums if its structure is sound. Since a great amount of this is tucked away in the micro-pores, the medium can look dry but still be plenty wet. The same rules apply here as in soil or soilless mixes: water when the container loses 50% of the maximum water it will hold against gravity (immediately after drainage of a newly watered container). This is done by weight and yes, it does change with time, root mass, humidity, temperature and grower temperament (thumb on scale syndrome).

By controlling the decomposition and particle size closely, there is no need for anything to increase drainage, like perlite, and this removes a disposal concern. Even more air space can be achieved by increasing the fraction of coco fibers and husks. This results in a totally renewable and biodegradable medium that resists compaction. Finally, the pH of the medium, when buffered and controlled, remains constant pretty much throughout its useful life. The medium sets its pH at between 5.2 and 6.2, a perfect range, and will hold it there, unlike peat-based products that try to go back to a pH of 4.5 or less within three months of being planted. By using the correct age of coco with the right porosity, coco potting medium should be able to work through almost a year's worth of crops before being changed. The pH stays correct and only the structure changes, limiting the useful period.

So, we see that by controlling the aging process, using the correct ratio of nutrients, using the correct composition of nutrients, and pre-buffering the coco peat, growers can anticipate getting the perfect medium, correctly balanced, correctly composed, with good porosity, a water buffer, and a lot less headaches then peat-based soilless mix products. That is great for a start, but to complete a crop, it is critical that the correct nutrients be used as well. Consider coco as needing to be "fed" along with the plants. Once the medium establishes a buffer, which it will do based on the nutrients it sees, right or wrong, the grower can wipe this out by applying plain water to the medium. The medium hangs on to nothing and will readily flush away its nutrients; then the plant will suffer until the buffer is restored. Always use fertilizer when you water coco that a plant is actively growing in, at least at about EC = 0.6mS/cm3. This will hold the balance or ratio of the nutrients to each other and insure that the plant gets exactly what it needs.

Thanks for all your input...I am really excited and I REALLY want my Diesels to work out as well ;) Im' going to adjust my watering schedule and nute schedule a little and let it ride for a bit. I have ample air flow, my room temp fluctuates between 77-79 degrees so that remains pretty constant as well as my %35 humidity. Really all I can think to be going wrong here is either lack of water, possible burning due to lack of water or plant disease that I would have no idea about since this my first time around the block. I do have new growth happening so cross your fingers for my S. Diesels and if anyone has any suggestions I am way open to them! :)

You gotta let the plants do some work on their own before you start hitting them with nutes. If they are only 10 days I wouldn't recommend ANY nutes just water but if you can't fight the urge then use 1/4 strength.

I think above posters are right about the nute burn. Stems are bright red, leaves look faded and brittle and the fact that its a new strain to you makes me think its an over nute. I just started a whole bunch of different strains of skunk as well as acouple different haze and each of them has their own personality. Some LOVE the nutes, others don't, some even take more water then others? Its crazy, they are alive :thumbsup:

bigtopsfinn, thanks for that article...that is very very helpful! So from what I understand ALWAYS use the canna nutes with every water, water way more than I am. I probably should repot my Diesels as I made the mistake of flushing, what do you think? Should I wait until they are out of stress, or do it right away?

Jtsik330, thanks for your post. after reading more on canna coco, everything I have seen says it is a horrible idea to water with out the nutes at any stage because it will destroy the integrity of the coco and wash away some properties that is has going on that help the plants. I have read that watering plants in the canna coco with out the nutes often results in the plants getting burned much like nute burn. I don't know this first hand as this is my first crop with the stuff, but it kind of makes sense after reading up on it. I normally and I do agree with you on the plants should do a bit of the work themselves, that is why I have only feed them nutes once, but what do I know? lol I curious to here if anyone has grown in the stuff before and what their experience was like?

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Originally Posted by Jord0713

bigtopsfinn, thanks for that article...that is very very helpful! So from what I understand ALWAYS use the canna nutes with every water, water way more than I am. I probably should repot my Diesels as I made the mistake of flushing, what do you think? Should I wait until they are out of stress, or do it right away?

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I don't know about transplanting... might cause more stress. I'd put them far away from the lights, give them a flush with with 1/4 strength nutes, and check ph going in and out.

If you are using R/O or distilled water, you will need CalMag+... this is just a guess (since you haven't mentioned your source water), but like it said in the article, a lack of Calcium may cause the problems you are seeing:

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Consequently, plants that do not have enough of some ions like calcium (there are several) due to underfeeding or washing out will show a deficiency in these and other elements. Meanwhile, potassium builds up the plant tissue, ultimately leading to margin burning on the leaf surface, mostly at the tip.

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For the record: I have no first hand experience growing in coco, but from some of the responses it seems that most (if not all) here don't either. I'm just making my best guesses based on what I read. Unfortunately this site doesn't have a lot of info regarding growing in coco... Hopefully a coco grower can step in and give some better advice.

In the meantime, fill in the troubleshooting form at the top of this section and copy and paste it here. It'll avoid any further guessing :thumbsup:

Well I don't have any either, but I like it so far and once I figure this stuff all out I will be sure to post my knowledge on the matter ;) I am not easily discouraged haha

What is your experience level? (Firsty)

Your Equipment:
.1) Type and wattage of lights. (4- 1000w HPS)
.2) Distance from tops? 24 inches
.3) Reflector type? (enclosed reflector.)
.4) Is there a consistent fresh air supply? Yes
.5) Do you have an exhaust fan and a circulation fan? yes
.6) What are the bulb wattages, kelvin ratings, and schedule? 1000 watt HPS Enhanced Hortilux

Your medium:
.7) Specific brand and type of soil, (Canna Coco with no additions)
.8) Size of container. #5 and #7 Smart Pots
.9) Did you use peat pucks (or similar) to root clones or germinate seedlings? No

Your nutrients and water:
10) Source of water? (tap) What's it's ph before adjusting? 7.2
11) Method of checking water ph. (test kit...)
12) Method of adjusting water ph. I haven't
13) Specific brand and N-P-K ratio for each bottle. List dosages (quantity per gallon) and current feeding schedule. Canna A&B 8 ML/gal each, Rhizotonic 8 ml/gal each and Cannazyme 10 ml/gal
14) How often are you watering between feedings, and how much per watering? The plants are 10 days old, I watered 2 times and feed once
15) Any additives or tea's? (Superthrive, CalMag, molasses, Mother's Earth...)NO
16) Are your ph levels stable, or do they fluctuate?
17) What is your ingoing water's ph? ...your runoff ph?
18) Do you foliar feed? If so, with what, how often, and at what time do you spray?

Your growroom:
19) Indoors or outdoors? Indoor
20) What size of closet, room or hut?15'x15'
21) What are the temps and humidity levels while lights are on? ...With lights off?temp = 77-79 consistently and humidity is steady %35-38
22) Have you seen signs of insects in the growroom? NO

Your strain:
23) What strain are you growing?Sour Diesel is the problem children 4 total
24) From seeds or clones? Clone
25) Is this an autoflower strain?No

7.2 ph is way too high for coco, aim for between 5.2 and 6.2... around 5.8-5.9 is best. Get some ph down from the hydro store, or you can use lemon juice as a quick fix... but definitely get the ph down and some ph up also, meant for plants (not for aquariums!).

From now on, always ph your water before feeding. Surprised your other ones aren't having problems yet, but I'm sure they will soon also.

Forget the CalMag part since your using tap... Another good measure is to let your tap water sit out for 24 hours to let the chlorine evaporate from it. Might not be the problem, but it won't hurt to do it either.

ok I'll monitor my ph for sure...I have had a salt water aquarium for years so I am very familiar with and why to do this. Also for my water I fill up 50 gallons, leave the lid off and I have an airstone in it and I leave it like this for3-4 days just to get it to room temp and get rid of the chlorine...Is this long enough or too long?

The airstone is unnecessary (save some electricity :D). The chlorine will evaporate without it in 24 hours, plus Coco is very airy in itself and doesn't need help. 3-4 days is not too long...

Perfect...thank you so much for all of your advise...I will sleep better tonight!!!

Defiantly a watering issue...Upped it and everything is kicking ass!

Good to hear :thumbsup:

Be sure to post some pics later, maybe start a log. I'd love to see how that Sour Diesel turns out (I have some Chemdog D x Sour Diesel beans waiting to be grown)

Happy growing :jointsmile:

The S. Diesel is still the worst, but it is coming back...everything else is going crazy! Day 13 and I have roots blowing out of the sides of all my pots and everything but the Diesel is around 20 inches! I'll post pics later on!

why the neg rep?

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Originally Posted by moody420

why the neg rep?

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If the rep is grey, it means they don't have enough rep points to count for your points... I got it too, with no comment I guess it's hard to know, but I'm sure he meant it to be positive :jointsmile:

I was trying to send good rep...:)

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Originally Posted by bigtopsfinn

If the rep is grey, it means they don't have enough rep points to count for your points... I got it too, with no comment I guess it's hard to know, but I'm sure he meant it to be positive :jointsmile:

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oh good...I was wondering! I wonder if it will change to green when they get enough posts....
:jointsmile:

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Originally Posted by Jord0713

I was trying to send good rep...:)

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thanks....i do appreciate it! I just saw a grey dot and thought in was neg....glad to know that's not the case! :jointsmile:

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Originally Posted by moody420

oh good...I was wondering! I wonder if it will change to green when they get enough posts....
:jointsmile:

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Wishful thinking ;) :D

yeah....i am a dreamer! :jointsmile:

thanks hermie! :D

Trust me, you will know when the neg shows up. If I remember correctly they come with red dots:wtf:

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Originally Posted by Jord0713

that looks just like the 3 of my plants except they are only 10 days old...any chance to salvage, or any good remedies? Do I have to worry about my other plants? How does one get this? and how can I prevent it? also it looks like your leaves are curling down? mine are going up and folding in half like tacos...are still talking about the same problem?

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flush with straight water ph 5.5-6.0.. some are just finicky. i couldnt tell on the powdery mildew. usually that just creates necrotic spots on the affected leaves and it dies. and it spreads to almost all vegetatia. flush and go from there. if you get some clean shoots clone them and try to save your genetics. good luck:thumbsup:

Still in those "Smart Pots"?

I did flush, then I had to repot because the canna coco is ruined if you do that come to find out. Flushing washes away some helpful bacteria and such that are naturally present. Everything is coming back around though. I am still in #5 and #7 Smart Pots and stepped up my watering schedule and that seems to have done it. THe S. Diesels are still a little sad, but they have new growth so I am remaining optimistic. The upside is my plants including the S.Diesels are only 13 days old and I literally have roots blowing out of my pots. The growth is crazy! I imagine at the rate they are going, I'll be flipping by weeks end. :)

I wouldn't worry too much about flushing the beneficials out, as I believe coco needs flushing often. But I would be very careful when moving the bags around and transplanting. Easy to do some serious damage to the roots.

Am curious too, with the ability to expand around the middle does the design of the bags create a compaction or folding (sagging) issue over time? How do you assure saturation when watering, or does the water not flow out of the sides? How long does it take to dry-out your medium? (do you water daily?) Are the bags sitting on a screen or a bed of drainage rocks? Does the root ball slip-out easily for transplant?

Not knocking the bags, just curious...