Using sandpaper to scuff seed for germination

I have reached a point where I believe I need to scuff my Current Batch of seeds with sandpaper to promote germination. Has anyone ever had to do this? I have never needed to do this before and want to hear from someone who has.

I am assuming I use the finest sandpaper available and lightly stroke once on the seem of the seed?

I have crushed some of the seeds that failed to Germinate and in each case there was a ViableEmbryo that looked like it was trying to break through. The Shells were the toughest shells I have ever dealt with. They are also the first seeds I ever produced myself. Which leads to other questions that probably can not be easily answered here, like is there something I did while producing or storing Seeds that caused the shells to be so thick?

Any information to be shared in regards to this area would be nice.

My answers to question others may ask me.

Yes, I did soak the seeds in water for 24 hours to start.

I used a Bubble Cloner for my Germination Method as Image Reaper describes here. http://boards.cannabis.com/basic-gro...time-easy.html

No, when I crushed the Seeds I did not smell anything fermenting or rotting

...... I also used a watered down solution of Serenade (anti fungal) and sprayed the Rapid Rooters 12 hours before placing Seeds in them.

Take the fine grade sandpaper and roll it up into a straw like tube, then tape it together in the middle so it does'nt unravel on you. Place thumb over one side of it and fill with like 10-12 seeds then cover other end with you pointer finger and shake vigorously back and forth steady but slowly. They will rub off all their shiny seed coats and look like pale immature seeds after a few minutes of shaking. Dump them out onto paper and blow away the powder like seed coat that came off then soak them in WARM distilled water overnight, then plant once the very tips of the taproots are visible..a few hours into the soaking in a cup of water swirl them around and make sure to break the surface tension that exists between the seed and the water due to it's oil content. I would swirl it around like a little whirlpool. Once your seeds are in a medium like rockwool or soil only plant them 1/4 deep and make sure to keep the surface evenly damp (not sopping wet) and WARM. Temps of at least 80F are ideal for germination. If this does'nt work, then it surely is the seeds. Good luck & may you OVERGROW the world. :jointsmile: :hippy:

TYVM kind sir! I will use your technique on some, and any further techniques I may recieve and let everyone know which ones do and do not work.

dude.... keep it simple, and imitate nature..... its a weed.

put some potting soil(Miracle Grow works just fine) in a 4 inch pot, put the seed in the dirt about 3/8 inch deep, then water. You will see sprouts at 3 - 4 days.

Anything else is either going to damage the seeds, or get the sprouts broken before you ever get them in the dirt.

The more you complicate things, the more chances of having problems and failures.

And when that does not work... did that weeks ago... Even used many other techniques I got from this forum.

I liked the cliche of Imitate Nature, it works most of the time, but what I have here are seeds that would would die in Natural Selection, so imitating nature means no positive results. I have seeds with shells that are too thick to survive naturally and I have to use an Advanced technique to help them along. This is actually common because the Strains being dealt with were selected for such traits as High Yield, Low Hieght, Low Odor, Pleasing flavor, Potency ...etc and not selected to survive naturally. This also goes for foods, and since I am an avid Gardener allow me to bring in another example I can explain much better.

Corn, ever try to grow Corn Naturally? You can't. Corn as we eat it could never surive Naturally, When an ear of Corn hits the ground you have about 200(?) Kernals all in the same spot that will Germinate at the same location. They would end up killing themselves all off before they ever made it large enough to Reproduce, and even if they did grow large enough to Reproduce they would not be spaced out properly to Pollenate. This is why corn is grown in rows spaced out at specific distances(uncommon in nature)... Corn that grows Naturally is a grass, and it has about 5 kernals, the Mayans selectively bred and developed it to where it can not survive unless tended to in a spefic way. (Ok maybe it was the Incas or Aztecs, its not like I kept track of the WHO in this story not relevent to my line of work)
The Cannabis we grow now are from seeds of Selective Breeding, Natural traits are bred out as Selective traits are bred in. Other Great Comparisons are Dogs... I have never bred dogs to go into details, but I can tell you that a Pit Bull who was bred to fight can not survive on its own because it lacks other skills to hunt or Scavenge.

Ok, I bored everyone with my long winded Trivia... Bottom Line, imitating Nature does not always work when you are using Selective Breeding Genetics... works great on a land race strain though.

:jointsmile: Fantastic post dude, totally agreed. Although I would usually first recommend the "natural way" when germinating seeds you asked about something specific, and you got a specific answer, and if you are careful and transplant right when the seed cracks open you won't damage it whatsoever. Some people have had bad luck with the soaking method because the water is too cold or they just don't pay attention and the young emerging tap root just gets too long and flimsy with no place to orient itself in a growing medium which then put's some seedlings into shock or you can damage the "tail" when planting it. All easily avoided by planting them right away when they open up and checking them in the cup every few hours. I do hope works out for you brother. That's what makes this forum such a fantastic venue is so that we can all help each other. :rastasmoke: :hippy:

I think this 'germination guide', written by Mike of 'Mandala Seeds', is extremely informative ... I totally did away with the whole 'scuffing/wet paper towels'. etc., methods, and saw better results, overall ... less instances of pythium wilt, etc ... I've found soil temperature (75f), to contribute more to germination, than anything else ...

Germination

I recommend giving it a read :thumbsup:

Thank you Imagine reaper:D,

I have already read that link before I even posted in this room, I believe I got the link from either reading one of your posts or a post from someone else. It has been already helpful and thanks for posting it again. All information is welcome and appreciated:thumbsup:.

Funny you mention Temperature being a big factor. I have been Experimenting with my Temps for 3 days now, I was keeping things between 78 and 80 (F) Degrees. I raised the Temperature in the Bubble Cloner to 88 - 90 degrees (F), much higher than Recomended and I have 3 sprouts today. I may not be an expert grower but I have been Germinating bag seed for over a decade just to see if I could. This is the first time ever that I needed temps this high. Hopefully this will work because Sandpaper is a LAST RESORT for me.

Other things I looked into were how did these particular seeds get such a thick shell. I went over Grow logs from when I produced the Seeds. I used well over the Recommended amount of Molasses in the last 2/3rds of flowering. Still researching the effects of Molasses on seed production. But it is something I feel need to be investigated. Who knows, maybe the thicker seeds are better if it turns out that raising temps solves the problem. It may actually prevent other problems. Being new to Seed production, this gives me a facinating area to investigate.

I like the Bubble Cloner with an Aquarium Heater for germinating seeds because I have so much control over the Temperature. I like having control over environments, the more control, the better your potential results.

I am still going to explore results with sandpapering using freedaherbs method with the 78-80 (f) temps. Just to see if it works. Knowing how to use that method may come in handy in the future. I have more seeds saved than I need anyways. Might as well use them for educational purposes.

Regarding keep it simple and nature... I wouldnt expect many people to know this but most seeds have simple needs in order to sprout, and some seeds will not sprout at all unless they meet the criteria.

Some seeds need to be digested in order to germinate by an animal. The animal eats the plant with the seeds, and poops them out. hehe. The seed coat is degraded and allows for germination to take place. Scuffing the seeds is in place of nature and will allow your seeds to germinate, or in the case of marijuana it will allow them to germinate faster and more efficiently/effectively. It may not be neccessary, but is something that takes place in nature.
Seeds also need to burn off the dormant enzymes that keep them from sprouting in the middle of the winter, thats why we need to keep them warm, and in a dark place to simulate being under ground.

Aside from the scuffing, i have also herd of people taking an sharp knife and scuffing at the seeds shell where the sprout comes out of, anything that you do to the seed is fine as long as you dont pierce through it and damage the embryo.

I would like to add, some seeds even need to be in a forest fire before they will Crack from heat. Then they Germinate. I wish I kept track of the species that needed this. After a forest fire certain plants take over faster that others. There is so much to learn in life and so little time to learn it.

I am finding that my Thick Shelled Seeds are germinating fine in a Bubble Cloner at 85 to 90 degrees, but many germinate then die from mold. I assume the high Temps make for a great environment for mold. Maybe 3 days on high temps then back down to 75 degrees. I spray the Rapid Rooters with Serenade (organic fungicide) but it only slows down the mold. I might go non organic for my Fungicide but I really do not like doing that. Before I do that, I will try Neem Oil.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by greentard

I would like to add, some seeds even need to be in a forest fire before they will Crack from heat. Then they Germinate. I wish I kept track of the species that needed this. After a forest fire certain plants take over faster that others. There is so much to learn in life and so little time to learn it.

I am finding that my Thick Shelled Seeds are germinating fine in a Bubble Cloner at 85 to 90 degrees, but many germinate then die from mold. I assume the high Temps make for a great environment for mold. Maybe 3 days on high temps then back down to 75 degrees. I spray the Rapid Rooters with Serenade (organic fungicide) but it only slows down the mold. I might go non organic for my Fungicide but I really do not like doing that. Before I do that, I will try Neem Oil.

---

Dude... keep it simple.... 4 inch pot of new soil, plant the seeds 3/8 inch deep, and water. Keep the temps at 75F and your mold problem with be a thing of the past....as well as a higher germination rate, and healthier plants.

FWIW, it doesn't matter what kind of shell the seeds have on them. scuffing, scraping etc will only make for weaker plants. Butterflies and moths that are taken or "assisted" from their cocoons don't develope properly and most die.
The same can be said for seeds.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mississippi Steve

Dude... keep it simple.... 4 inch pot of new soil, plant the seeds 3/8 inch deep, and water. Keep the temps at 75F and your mold problem with be a thing of the past....as well as a higher germination rate, and healthier plants.

FWIW, it doesn't matter what kind of shell the seeds have on them. scuffing, scraping etc will only make for weaker plants. Butterflies and moths that are taken or "assisted" from their cocoons don't develope properly and most die.
The same can be said for seeds.

---

I agree 100% :thumbsup: ... amazing how well nature gets by, without a piece of sandpaper, a forest fire, or being digested by an animal (that post HAD to be the dumbest thing I ever heard) :S2:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by the image reaper

I agree 100% :thumbsup: ... amazing how well nature gets by, without a piece of sandpaper, a forest fire, or being digested by an animal (that post HAD to be the dumbest thing I ever heard) :S2:

---

Yeah just like how the cannabis genetics got here in the first place all by nature with no help from man, just like all the hybrids and strains of today, totally natural. lol

Your post is the dumbest post in this thread actually. There are "natural" processes at work that are natural like ANIMALS & forest fires! hahahaha :S2:

Did you think those processes were un-natural? :S3:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by FreeDaHerb

Yeah just like how the cannabis genetics got here in the first place all by nature with no help from man, just like all the hybrids and strains of today, totally natural. lol

Your post is the dumbest post in this thread actually. There are "natural" processes at work that are natural like ANIMALS & forest fires! hahahaha :S2:

Did you think those processes were un-natural? :S3:

---

Actually IR is a top rate, award winning breeder. Do a little research on "Nor Cal Daddys Girl". Its one of the best strains around.

And I shit gold bricks after breakfast, his post still made no sense and calling the last guy's post the dumbest post he ever read was just out of line I don't care if he freed the slaves and invented the lightbulb.

And as far as breeding goes, it's surely alot of tedious work when done right but most of todays new amazing crosses and exotic named hybrids are just reworks of the same strains developed in the 80's and early 90's.

Alot of today's breeding and seedbanks rely more on names & marketing than real breakthroughs in breeding.

I happen to know someone very personally who years ago, isolated & fixed the extremely rare trait of triploid leaves and bud sites from a sweet tooth x blueberry x skunk cross years ago and the vast majority of offspring in that F1 generation are true and normally extremely rare triploid plants (around 75% of seeds) with 3 real budding sites per node, fully potent, fast growing, non mutated specimens that are like frosty fruit bushes. So far unreleased to the public.

;)

pay no attention to FreeDaHerb, he's just wetting his diapers, (because I Neg. repped him, for his unrelenting lambasts at OldMac) :D ... thanks for the support, folks, but Im not easily offended ... I stand by my Neg. rep, as you can see, he loves to rant, rave, and badmouth ... he returned the Neg. rep to me, but that isn't enough, evidently ... he needs to pile on the insults ... no problem, tactics like that, usually result in someone's absence ... grow up a bit, youngster :jointsmile:

Obviously then you are avoiding the subject of the post above and worried more about forum rep which I am about to turn off because it's so childish and ridiculous and I'm not here for your rep, but to support the cannabis movement. I guess nobody is allowed to disagree with you it seems. You said those processes like animals and forest fires were un-natural and you are fundamentally wrong, it's really simple and you made a mistake. Don't take it personally bro, no biggie really. We are all here for the same reasons and with the same love for the same plant, maybe you and oldmac forget that and get too caught up in your forum gang leader status to be civil to other members.

I did not insult you at all above in my post, maybe you felt insulted because I questioned what you said and instead of an intelligent reply you say something that will 'result in someone's absence" but reality is sometimes you come across someone who is just a bit more connected then you are. I agree and disagree with everyone equally, no special treatment. If you were offended then please realize maybe you offended the guy that you said his post was the dumbest ever. Except you were wrong about those things not being natural. I'm surely not the only one who realized this and it's not meant to offend you or get into a pissing contest. Just a healthy debate.

Now surely you can handle a healthy informative debate without threats right?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by FreeDaHerb

Obviously then you are avoiding the subject of the post above and worried more about forum rep which I am about to turn off because it's so childish and ridiculous and I'm not here for your rep, but to support the cannabis movement. I guess nobody is allowed to disagree with you it seems. You said those processes like animals and forest fires were un-natural and you are fundamentally wrong, it's really simple and you made a mistake. Don't take it personally bro, no biggie really. We are all here for the same reasons and with the same love for the same plant, maybe you and oldmac forget that and get too caught up in your forum gang leader status to be civil to other members.

---

:) ok, let's go over it, one by one ... 1. I am leaving my 'rep' turned on, so anyone that wants to, can spank me ... 2. everyone is allowed to disagree with me, in fact, it happens frequently :D ... 3. I NEVER said anything about animals and fires being 'unnatural' :wtf: (the giant sequoias depend on fires, to crack their seeds, we're not growing them here, however) the 'stupid' post, was saying animals digest seeds, and crap them out (funny, a seedling that is so easily killed by a tiny bit of fertilizer, would thrive in the interior of a hot turd :D) ... 4. I make mistakes frequently enough, and do not take offense when they're pointed out (in fact, I usually discover the mistake myself, and attempt to make amends) ... 5. I wasn't aware that I, or oldmac, are 'forum gang leaders', and don't think either of us would come to mind, when you think of rudeness, or lack of civility, to the members here ...

this all started, because I felt you were unceasingly fucking with oldmac, (who, I dont personally know, but respect) ... oldmac would be the first one to inform you, that we disagree about the use of LED lamps ... I would love to have an effective LED setup, but I don't feel like the present ones are worth the money, and lack results ... but, that's only my opinion, and everyone is OK to disagree ... but, don't hammer a guy over the head, about it, like you were doing with oldmac ... that's what this whole thing was about ...

happy gardening ! :)

Oh that surely makes more sense now and I have to say I appreciate you at least admitting that you picked a "fight" with me because I was having a disagreement with another member who was carrying on and accusing me of trying to promote an LED light I was vouching for and also said I was spamming when that could'nt be farther from the truth and I have zero vested interest in any of those products other than trying to recommend the best equipment available. Then after pointing out to everyone that he asked me about them in the FIRST PLACE in the thread where I was answering someones question about LED LIGHTS then all the sudden I became the "asshole" as you put it in your very rude post there to me. So really dude, you were out of line in that thread and you are out of line here. Don't ever threaten me again, and stay out of my posts if you have nothing to add but drama and insults. I have yet to insult you other than the gang leader joke but maybe if you did'nt act that way it would not appear so to others. Enough said.

ps - looked up your strain, it's a nice one. Good job. :thumbsup:

Now let's all get high. :rastasmoke:

Not Responding to the childish Ridicule posts, they are beneath me. But for those intrested in learning about different methods of germinations needed in the vast world of Angiosperms check out this site.

How to Germinate Seed

Those of you intrested in a partial list of plants that require smoke germination.

Smoke Genera

Some of these actually have to be in the fire to germinate because its the heat from the fire that cracks the shell.

for those of you who think that a seed that does not Germinate easily means the plant is weak might want to read the first link. It even explains why some seeds have thick shells. Also, a weak plant at Germination produces more product than one not grown. That is if the plant really is weak.