LED or HPS

(grow space is 16x16 warehouse)my friends boss wanted to do a indoor grow opt and this guy has a shit load of money and he don't care about spending the money hes had, so he tells me he wanted the most expensive shit there is in the market(he wants to use LED)
but really i dont know shit about LED but i heard it runs way cooler than hps and you need red and blue lights and all these shit, i was thinking with a fucking 16x16 warehouse it would be too cold cause winter is also coming
So can you guys tell me pros and cons bout LED
and what should i tell this guy to use or what should he use?
thank guys

i know u want people with led experience,but if he has the cash.your not going to find a led lighting system that will over power several 1000 watters and give the same amount of production.and if u have tha cash heat production from those lamps wont make much of a difference with his top of the line ventilation.weezerd has 2 really nice looking led systems that look like they have a great foot print they are the TI smart lamp.type that into your search engine and see what u come up with"not saposed to post links"

I'd search for "Indoor Agriculture"...
Just a hunch...
see my grow logs

If you want the best LED light then go with the Lumigrow ES 330 watts, it is a true 600 watt HPS replacement and can grow some fantastic plants all the way to maturity with no real disadvantages compared to HPS. Uses literally half the juice and only produces a fraction of the heat. Also lasts way way longer. You can get them for $1200 or so each from the company direct (lumigrow.com) and one will effectively cover a 4 x 4 area when they are overlapping or 3 x 3 by itself. So to cover say a 12 ft by 12 ft square area completely you would need 9 of them but potentially could easily more than pay for them with the first crop several times over. Assuming of course this is a legal grow for medical purposes only by licensed caregivers. I'm factoring in empty space for room to move around the garden or through it, airflow and equipment, that's why I'm saying 12 x 12 instead of your total room size. :hippy:

Put a General Hydroponics Eurogrower (the complete version) under each light for 8 big plants x 9 = 72 plants total. At just a mere 1 ounce per plant (plants of like 18" - 24" or so at maturity) that would be minimum 4.5 lbs of flowers per cycle WORST CASE scenario. More likely is 5 - 6 pounds per cycle with good high yielding strains and nutrients (use the 3 part GH Flora series & Lucas formula of 8 ML of micro & 16 ML of bloom during flowering) with just a total of 2,970 watts of LED going and very, very minimal heat.

If you need to ADD some heat get the biggest gas Co2 generator you can get and don't exhaust the air out but I would'nt exceed 1200 - 1500 ppm or so with it which will give you huge yields compared to without..9 of those LED lights will actually add about 15 - 20 degrees or so to the ambient temps Im guessing. Compare that to ONE HPS 1000 that would nearly do the same thing temp wise itself and heat could become a big issue really fast.

Hey there FreeDaHerb,

How good have your results been with the LumiGrow ES? I came across thier web site and was very interested in them. Thier use of 5 watt diodes is what caught my attention, plus the red/blue dials for setting the R/B ratio seems really trick. I would think that for someone using only one light for both veg and flower could find that pretty usefull, almost as good as Weezard's "dial a stretch" control.:D

Hey oldmac, I wish I could give you some real world results but unfortunately I do not grow and have no plans to anytime soon. :(
I am however a very keen researcher and have seen & heard only fantastic things about these specific led growlights. I think this is what many of us have been waiting for spectrum wise. Good luck brother, OVERGROW the world! :thumbsup: :hippy: :rastasmoke:

Maybe this will help...I think this calibuddz dude is on 5 weeks flowering here, I think they look damn good for pure LED light and he is growing in soil so with a hydro set-up it would likely be much bigger at this point. (and these plants look great for 5 weeks in soil) The 660 nm peak red with the white LED's does the trick it seems. :stoned::stoned::stoned::stoned::stoned::stoned:

LumiGrow ES 330w LED Test - Page 15 - Marijuana Growing

what about this one TI-SmartBar 1000 ProBloom Buy LED Grow Lights, Procyon 100

I think those are very good lights, but the much newer Lumigrow ES is brighter with higher power LED's and true 660 nm red...top of the food chain right now. Also, that light you mention the probloom 1000 uses 430 watts total and must be water cooled which I'm guessing is a paint in the butt, also $1900 each! I heard the company that makes them is going out of business anyways and having legal issues. (was in one of the calibuddz threads)

I did not know that thanks for the info

whats the price for the Lumigrow ES? I could not find it on the site. It looks like a good light. I love the fact that you can adjust the red and blue with just a turn of the knob.

I found them on indooragriculture for 1,299 on sale last time I looked marked down 24%..not sure if they actually have them in stock or not. If dropshipping direct from the manufacturer they may NOT be wrapped in a plain box but marked clearly on the outside of it what it is, etc. Something to consider and check into first as I don't know how indoor ag does it...I do think though these LED lights are more "mainstream" for food growers and gardening hobbyist, etc...not a bad hobby at all to take up! :cool:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FreeDaHerb

Hey oldmac, I wish I could give you some real world results but unfortunately I do not grow and have no plans to anytime soon. :(
I am however a very keen researcher and have seen & heard only fantastic things about these specific led growlights. I think this is what many of us have been waiting for spectrum wise. Good luck brother, OVERGROW the world! :thumbsup: :hippy: :rastasmoke:

---

Now ain't that interesting, you have never seen these lights or used them but you are promoting them here. :wtf: AND you don't grow.

As to the posts on rollitup by calibuddz, I find it interesting that he joined that site in aug09, just when the lights where going on sale. Think he might be a shill? As to Theoreme going out of bussiness, it's always possible but when I spoke to them last week they seem to be gearing towards the future. You might also be interested in the fact that the 2 principles of that company happen to be lawyers, and the only lawsuit they are envolved in is a patent infringement suit they brought against another company.

As I look at your other posts you seem to be humping the LumiGrow quite a bit. Do you have a vested interest here? How about you stop shilling for them.

I actually think thier lights may have merit, but I got a real bad feeling about how they are being promoted.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rubberbubbler

what about this one TI-SmartBar 1000 ProBloom Buy LED Grow Lights, Procyon 100

---

The TI-SmartBars work very well, I know someone who purchased them abt 10 months ago and bought another set just 2 months ago. They are water cooled as pointed out which does mean setting up a chiller or cooling rez. It is also worth noting that they only come in 220v so that can be a problem if you need to rewire.

My partner and I have been debating switching over to them, since we can not get the old style housings anymore and wanted to put 4 TI 600's over the aero/fog tray we are setting up. Tho I may go ahead with a homebuilt light soon instead.

Quote:

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As I look at your other posts you seem to be humping the LumiGrow quite a bit. Do you have a vested interest here? How about you stop shilling for them.

---

I personally think they are the best LED lights out right now and I have seen one in action...same as many people vouch for Advanced Nutrients when people ask about nutes. I don't sell lights and I don't know any of these people or companies personally, not that it would be wrong if I did lol.

I could say you are "shilling" for the TI LED Lights using your logic in your last post. But I don't say stupid shit like that.

He asked about them and I'm giving info based on my well educated opinion. I knew someone would likely say something after reading those posts by the calibuddz dude, I too think he's tied in with them somehow but alas this is a different site and I'm definitely a different person and that's the end of that explanation.

I don't grow personally for my own reasons, but I know people who do for legal medical use. I am going to continue to recommend the LED lights that I feel can best help people achieve what they are looking to achieve since there are so many BS lights out there of inferior quality. If that threatens you in any way shape or form that's unfortunate. I provide solid useful information to save people alot of time and hassle and anything I say you can surely take it to the bank because it's based on facts my friend. So no hard feelings, but you should think a little more before you post something like that next time brother. We are all on the same team. :thumbsup: :hippy:

Quote:

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My partner and I have been debating switching over to them, since we can not get the old style housings anymore and wanted to put 4 TI 600's over the aero/fog tray we are setting up. Tho I may go ahead with a homebuilt light soon instead.

---

What's your thoughts on the problems with the new style body. As for the TI Smart Bars, I consider the water coolig a plus. Very little heat load added to the room i would think. If I could fault the TI Smart bollm, or most other lamps for that matter, it;s the haphazrd way they dispose of the "colling air discarge".

Rolling your own is probably the best way to go, as you said.

M.P.

Seriously guys, an LED light that HAS to be water cooled? And it's an LED? Quite the contradiction really. The only logical explanation is that there is ineffective cooling fans in place and poor design to begin with along with an insufficient heatsink. If the water cooling solution were to fail due to faulty components like a bad pump or a spill, leak, etc. you might very well end up with a bad heat situation and a damaged light or worse. Water & electricty do not mix that's for certain. If I were going to use one of the TI Smartlamps it definitely be the smaller "600" that did'nt have to be water cooled but hey that's me. The Lumigrow ES is newer, larger 5 watt LED emitters and signifigantly brighter based on my research. (total PAR watts) Plus the true deep red & purpose designed 660 nm red which is the majority of the light the Lumigrow produces gives it unmatched flowering results for cannabis compared to any other LED. I'm quite sure the TI lights are superior products compared to many other LED's but the Lumigrow actually is better considering all factors like the much bigger 5 watt LED's. Plus it has very effective cooling in place and plenty of quiet & high powered internal fans with an all aluminum heatsink enclosure. I think the procyons are fantastic lights as well and super bright just lacking in the "white" LED's and only available so far in the maximum 100 watt sizes..I'm still waiting for the super size Procyon, it will likely be an amazing unit just like the Procyon 100's.

FreeDaHerb,
You are telling us nothing we don't already know, and some things that at least I don't buy into, e.g. white LEDs. I know a place that has 9 Lunigrows in stock and have known about the product line (older model) for at least one year. The money hasn't jumped out of my pockets yet. My grows come out just fine as do oldmacs.

My two Procyons will raise my temps in the tent by about 4 degrees over ambient and the TI about 3 per unit. The point is that in multiple lamp setups it would be great to be able to get rid if the heat, particularly if you have a hydro setup with a rez chiller already.

Horses for courses...
No one product is for all applications.

Difference is what the world go 'round, so how about respecting other peoples opinions?

M.P.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MerryPrankstr

What's your thoughts on the problems with the new style body. As for the TI Smart Bars, I consider the water coolig a plus. Very little heat load added to the room i would think. If I could fault the TI Smart bollm, or most other lamps for that matter, it;s the haphazrd way they dispose of the "colling air discarge".

Rolling your own is probably the best way to go, as you said.

M.P.

---

Hey M.P.,

I don't see a problem with the new housing, if I had 4 new style I would be ok. The old style has 3 mount points on one end and the new has two, they each have one mount point on the other end. Putting 2 of the old togther is simply one pce of aluminum channel drilled to take the two middle studs of each. Gotta do soemthing different with the new ones to combine them. ETC.

Water cooling of the TI bars is fairly easy and straight forward. And it is a plus in many ways since the design spreads the lights out, not a block design like most hi-power LED lights. I've actually been looking at long (4') aluminum heat sinks, plus fans for a DIY light design (800-1200w over 4'x4') and honestly I'm thinking about using water cooling instead. It might even be more energy efficent then running so many fans.

It's funny you should mention the air output from the TI 600 Pro-Bloom's. Just last night we filled the new aero/fog tray will rooted cuttings, and sat watching the lights move back and forth accross the tray on the light rail. The output blows down slightly towards the plantlets causing them to be blown around lightly. We where just saying last night how nice it was, no need for a oscillatting fan on the plants! See, one person's fault is another's plus. :)

Keep well and keep growing. -oldmac :thumbsup:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FreeDaHerb

Seriously guys, an LED light that HAS to be water cooled? And it's an LED? Quite the contradiction really. The only logical explanation is that there is ineffective cooling fans in place and poor design to begin with along with an insufficient heatsink. If the water cooling solution were to fail due to faulty components like a bad pump or a spill, leak, etc. you might very well end up with a bad heat situation and a damaged light or worse. Water & electricty do not mix that's for certain. If I were going to use one of the TI Smartlamps it definitely be the smaller "600" that did'nt have to be water cooled but hey that's me. The Lumigrow ES is newer, larger 5 watt LED emitters and signifigantly brighter based on my research. (total PAR watts) Plus the true deep red & purpose designed 660 nm red which is the majority of the light the Lumigrow produces gives it unmatched flowering results for cannabis compared to any other LED. I'm quite sure the TI lights are superior products compared to many other LED's but the Lumigrow actually is better considering all factors like the much bigger 5 watt LED's. Plus it has very effective cooling in place and plenty of quiet & high powered internal fans with an all aluminum heatsink enclosure. I think the procyons are fantastic lights as well and super bright just lacking in the "white" LED's and only available so far in the maximum 100 watt sizes..I'm still waiting for the super size Procyon, it will likely be an amazing unit just like the Procyon 100's.

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FreeDa Herb;

Where to begin? First let me state this again clearly; from what I've read about the LumiGrow lights with there 5w diodes, 660nm Red, spectrum, etc they seem to be a good LED light with alot of promise. I would love to see one, touch one and try one, barring that I would like to see it be evaluated by an independent source like GreenPineLane. I would settle for someone who's used it and seemed knowledgeable about it's use but I would have to consider the source. I've now had a chance to read the entire rollitup thread and that is a true shill, complete with bs and even shots against competitors. I would not trust those grow pics for obvious reasons.

As to your extensive research and knowledge that you bring to this discusion, well your above post about TI SmartBars and thier use of water cooling just goes to show how little you actually know. LEDs produce heat and while not as much and in a different location then HIDs it is something that has to be dealt with. Thermal management is the first engineering problem that needs to be addressed when designing a LED based grow light. It's very easy for a LED to go from light emitting mode to toaster mode. Almost all homebrewers of LED lights know this first hand. And BTW the SmartBars besides water cooling require 220v, they are not aimed at the home hobby grower but more for commercial use like supplemental lighting for greenhouses or larger scale indoor growing.

I personally would not / will not recommend the use of, or non use of, any product I have not used, am using or have first hand knowledge of. Maybe that's just me. I don't take "trust me" information from anybody including my doctors without first doing my own research.:D

Quote:

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Water cooling of the TI bars is fairly easy and straight forward. And it is a plus in many ways since the design spreads the lights out, not a block design like most hi-power LED lights. I've actually been looking at long (4') aluminum heat sinks, plus fans for a DIY light design (800-1200w over 4'x4') and honestly I'm thinking about using water cooling instead. It might even be more energy efficent then running so many fans.

---

I totally agree, much better than spilling it back into the grow space.

Quote:

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It's funny you should mention the air output from the TI 600 Pro-Bloom's. Just last night we filled the new aero/fog tray will rooted cuttings, and sat watching the lights move back and forth accross the tray on the light rail. The output blows down slightly towards the plantlets causing them to be blown around lightly. We where just saying last night how nice it was, no need for a oscillatting fan on the plants! See, one person's fault is another's plus.

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This is so true!

M.P.

Quote:

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I personally would not / will not recommend the use of, or non use of, any product I have not used, am using or have first hand knowledge of. Maybe that's just me. I don't take "trust me" information from anybody including my doctors without first doing my own research.

---

The funny thing about reality on a forum is you only can really go by what the other person posts. Some of us do read between the lines.

That being said, you can lead a horse to water....

I really don't give a shit what light you use but if you are going to spend your hard earned dough on an LED I would highly suggest you try out that lumigrow and you might be blown away at growth rates. TRUST ME. lmao

Good luck guys, peace & success. :thumbsup: :hippy:

IMO the funny thing is people who enter a discussion and don't know how to discuss.

You can also gauge a response by the person saying it. Some people around the community have a good reputation for assisting people, not jamming "name brands" down their throats. Maybe a goal you should strive for...

BTW, no one cares what your personal opinion is. Stop mentioning how personal you take this, and maybe people will stop thinking you are overcompensating for pushing product. Their perception is their reality. They want to know what you can show, put your money where your mouth is so to speak.

I don't get the metaphor. You can lead a horse to water... but what? You can't make him shell out money for unproven products? Maybe sales isn't your calling

Well really what happened here is a few people who seem to be overly skeptical (which I can appreciate) came into a discussion I was having with another member who was asking for info that I provided and I was then asked a somewhat of a "trap question" that I responded to in a kind reasonable manner and proceeded to be cross examined about my opinions and defend them. There is such a thing as "better"

A 600 HPS is "better" than a 400 watt HPS. Proven fact. It put's out more light, more useable PAR watts, is more efficient at making light.

The hortilux HPS bulbs are "better" than regular commercial HPS lights, more PAR watts. Proven fact. There is no confusion here.

LED lights: produce light to grow plants..

The Lumigrow ES makes more par watts than the equivelant TI Smartlamp and has more actual red 660 nm which has been proven to be the primary range cannabis uses for flowering..it does'nt take a rocket scientist to deduct the end results.

I say you do what you think is right..any of them will "work" but some things are just simple math and if you put the TI 600 next to the Lumigrow ES I will bet you the price of the light the Lumigrow outproduces the TI lamp signifigantly. That's not to say I am knocking their product, before this one came out they were the leaders but that only lasts so long with advancements in any technology or market...early in this thread my initial response was that they are very good lights but the TI 1000 is alot more money and must be water cooled.

The Lumigrow ES is just better IN MY VERY EDUCATED opinion.

If you can't appreciate that I'm ok with that, it does'nt really matter I guess.

I don't need to prove anything to anyone and I go back to the early days of OG. Nuff' said.

I just recently started recommending the Lumigrow and if you would like to research my posts here you can see it's just a small fraction of the useful advice I provide people with.

I think I clearly demonstrate my intentions to help only and not harm.

If I would have said earlier in thread "Oh yeah these lights rock, I'm blowing it the fuck up in my room with 2 of them over a hydro table and they are growing the plants so fast I can't believe it" and posted some pictures then you guy's would all be telling me how awesome that is and how great they look, but alas, I did not. :rastasmoke:

I really am done here guys, time will certainly tell and if you want to settle for less and pay more than be my guest. 1 watt LED's and less flowering red or 5 watt LED's and huge red range peaking in 660 nm..hmmmm hard choice.

Ohh yeah the saying goes:

"You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink"
You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink - Idiom Definition - UsingEnglish.com

As much as I wish this all could be mine it's not..or else I would be busy smoking it instead of playing around here... :stoned:

This picture was from another forum, 2 lumigrows over a big table and not sure who to credit for the pic but I'm sure someone can find the grow thread..

Cannabis Forums Message Boards - Medical Marijuana, Cannabis Club, Dispensary, News

Looks virtually the same as 2 600 watts HPS's to me but hey maybe I just make this shit up as I go along? ;)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by oldmac

Hey there FreeDaHerb,

How good have your results been with the LumiGrow ES? I came across thier web site and was very interested in them. Thier use of 5 watt diodes is what caught my attention, plus the red/blue dials for setting the R/B ratio seems really trick. I would think that for someone using only one light for both veg and flower could find that pretty usefull, almost as good as Weezard's "dial a stretch" control.:D

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This is the "trap question" I asked. The way you where talking about these lights I was sure you must be using them. Sorry, did not mean to trap you.

You keep saying how much more powerfull these lights are. Theoreme Innovation list the photon energy expressed in mico moles for all of thier lights, why not LumiGrow? TI submitted 2 of thier lights the SmartLight and SmartBars for an independent review, why not Lumigrow?

BTW the TI pro-blooms have 183 micro moles of PPFD (photosynthetic photon flux density). Maybe you could find out what the LumiGrow puts out, then we could better compare them.

Contact lumigrow and ask them and do please let us know what you find out.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FreeDaHerb

Contact lumigrow and ask them and do please let us know what you find out.

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I'ma hop on in here for a nonce.

High Guys!

I did contact Lumigrow by e-mail because it does look like a player.

I offered to run a legal A/B /C Med grow.
Lumigrow/Bubbalight/Hawaiian Sunlight.
They misunderstood.
They tried to sell me a light at their "sale price" $ 1,300.
Oops, sorry, $ 1299.99! :wtf:.

I clarified my offer.
The sales person declined with another pitch.<sigh>
Said they could not "give me a free light".
Good grief! It's not like I intended to keep it.
Just offered to run a test if nothing had to come out of my pocket.:hippy:

I told her "Don't sell plastic clothes". :D
(Anyone with any time in sales, would "get" that one.)
(For them what don't. "Don't sell past the close." is the punch line).

Perhaps I should have called and hacked my way though the sales team to get to a "person of influence", but I wasn't all that interested now that I can bloom in sunlight 365.

If I didn't already have stellar veg lights, I'd prolly push a little.;)
Looks like a good light, but they don't seem very keen to compete is all I'm sayin'.

Carry on.
Weeze out.

Yeah Weez, I agree and most likely that girl on the phone probably does'nt have the ability or motivation to send out a test light. Also, they probably get asked alot for "free lights" I think they might have missed a big chance to have you test it out. But hey I guess if I had a kick ass LED light like theirs I would make people pay too! Seems people used to pay the $1500 - $1600 for their older less powerful one that did'nt have the new 660 nm red and like you guy's brought up in that other thread it's probably close to three procyons output wise and in a better color range for flowering so from what I can tell the $1,299 is a decent price. Obviously they would sell a shit load of them if it was half that price but I do think they are quite expensive to build material wise plus a 5 year warranty is always nice. Hey if I was made out of money and cost was no object I would buy a few in a blink. I think it's like anything else in life, you get what you pay for. Same with those TI Smartlamps & procyons which are by no means cheap and really in all calculations more than the lumigrow all things considered. The TI lights are both more to begin with and 3 Procyons would set you back $550 - $595 x 3 = $1650 to $1785 and even then would'nt have the right deep red or any white LED. Plus they are not the 5 watt LED's which obviously have greater penetration and are brighter than the 1 or 2 watt emitters. I do have to add though that for a small veg light in LED the Procyon 100 is a hell of a bright light and worth every penny.

Weezard,
I bought all my lighting at one particualr place. They also had the Lumigrow at the time, but it was the 1st generation version. At that time I chose the one I own, but I might have gotten the Lumigrow if the current model was out then.

It is a well USA built unit, but none of the mfrs out there are really looking to cut deals 'cause they're backordered most of the time. I know one reliable outlet that has nine in stock but I'm not gonna spam anyone.

Not my purpose here or my personal disposition. But I'm pretty sure you know that by now.

M.P.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FreeDaHerb

Contact lumigrow and ask them and do please let us know what you find out.

---

What happened to "I am however a very keen researcher......."?????????

I guess that don't extend to real usefull information, but you can regurgitate thier marketing word for word.

The real shame here is that a few of the real world LED users and promoters of LED use, who think that light may be good and shows alot of promise, are turned off by your BS.:BLUE SMILIE SPAM:

Listen dude, I have been overly patient with your accusatory immature antics and I'm not on trial here, I think it's the best LED and many others agree with me. As far as my "experience" goes thats frankly none of your f*cking business and surely not the topic here. I'm not sure why you are so obsesed with me and what I do or don't do. What are you the f*cking fuzz or what?

I am not sure what your personal trouble is but you have really bad energy and you're not being very neighborly. So I'm done doing research & work for you as it's not been appreciated whatsoever and at this point you are on a witch hunt but you picked the wrong tree to bark up. If you want to find out any more information on that light you can do it yourself and maybe you can contribute some useful information here about it. Best of luck to you.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FreeDaHerb

As far as my "experience" goes thats frannkly none of your fucking business.

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Unfortunately this is the most important part. Only people with none get offended when asked about experience. Kinda like money.

Would you listen to anyone who said their experience is none of your fucking business?

You are absolutely right bro, what do I know right. One day I will grow a medical cannabis plant just for you so that I can feel approved & "respected" by strangers on a forum online and I'll do it under an LED and maybe you can help me along in the process. One day. ;)

I'm not here to grow plants and post pictures for you kiddo, I joined this forum to help medical growers with cultivation help & useful knowledge & further our cause. It's alot easier for me to answer questions here than offline. :thumbsup:

What are you here for? To talk shit? :wtf:


ps - I really laughed at this part lol

Quote:

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Only people with none get offended when asked about experience. Kinda like money.

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Obviously showing your age & maturity level here.

Thank you for the rep Irydyum, in case you missed it I sent you positive rep yesterday so please do enjoy. I think you need to do some soul searching brother as we are'nt here to flame other members. I see in several threads recently you seem to be very rude and get into alot of arguments so I guess you have some anger issues that you take out on others here on the forum. I will have to consider the source more in the future when reading your posts or not reading them for that matter. Peace out, done with this thread.

:hippy:

Keep it civil please, gentlemen.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by the image reaper

gotta agree, this time FreedaHerb comes off as the asshole, that won't let it go ... burn a doobie, kick back, cheer up ! :D

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Kids! No fight!

It's the "internet effect" Is see no "Bad guys" here.

I'll dig da hole if you lot will give up da hatchets.
Play nice or go home until you can.

Always remember, da 'zard loves ya both.:)

Aloha,

Weeze

The cover is going back on the sandbox.