pH problems.. read lots of info, still need help!

Your Equipment:
.1) Type and wattage of lights. 250w MH
.2) Distance from tops? was very close.. <1 ft, I raised it up to 2ft this week
.3) Reflector type? enclosed
.4) Is there a consistent fresh air supply? yes
.5) Do you have an exhaust fan and a circulation fan? yes
.6) What are the bulb wattages, kelvin ratings, and schedule? 24/0 250w MH conversion in an HPS ballast

Your medium:
.7) Specific brand and type of soil, FFOF straight out of the bag
.8) Size of container. 3 quart
.9) Did you use peat pucks (or similar) to root clones or germinate seedlings? no

Your nutrients and water:
10) Source of water? Tap.. pH is high, but I dont know exactly I'm assuming 7.0-8.0
11) Method of checking water ph. liquid test
12) Method of adjusting water ph. pH up/pH down
13) Specific brand and N-P-K ratio for each bottle. I have only fed nutes twice at half strength FF Grow Big
14) How often are you watering between feedings, and how much per watering? They dont get regular feedings.. I water them every few days when the pot feels light.. I give them water till it is dripping out the bottom, they have been flushed a few times
15) Any additives or tea's? no
16) Are your ph levels stable, or do they fluctuate? fluctuate.. see post
17) What is your ingoing water's ph? ...your runoff ph? Read post
18) Do you foliar feed? If so, with what, how often, and at what time do you spray? I started doing this yesterday.. a very small dose of FF grow big misted on the leaves out from under the light, placed under the light when they dried

Your growroom:
19) Indoors or outdoors? indoors
20) What size of closet, room or hut? closet is 9x7x4 I have a 5x4 area sectioned off with panda film
21) What are the temps and humidity levels while lights are on? ...With lights off? 77F 40-50% humidity
22) Have you seen signs of insects in the growroom? Thought I might have had whiteflies because of little white specs blowing off the leaves.. holes in leaves as well, but I dont think they could have been caused by flies, sprayed with azamax twice

Your strain:
23) What strain are you growing? indica dominant
24) From seeds or clones? seeds
25) Is this an autoflower strain? no



Hey everyone, I'm new here and this is my first grow. I've posted on other forums but have not really found any type of solution to my problem. My plants are now 1 month old, they are under a 250w MH in FFOF. Ever since the very begginning there has been pH problems. At first my pH was much too high and the plants were growing with mutated crazy looking leaves. I went and got a liquid test kit and began to pH down my tap water. All was going good and the plants seemed to be doing a little bit better, they always had yellow leaf tips even though I wasnt feeding any nutes. I decided to buy a cheap milwaukee test pen. This was a big mistake. I properly stored and calibrated the pen, but always wondered why its readings didn't coincide with my liquid test. I first noticed something was up when I had to add about 12 drops of pH down to a gallon of tap water to get the pen to read in the 6.5-7.0 range. With the liquid test kit, the indicator solution would turn proper color after 2 drops of pH down per gallon. I trusted the pen instead. My plants began to curl at the leaves, new growth started to come in twisted and ripped, the new leaves began to grow in extemely pale yellowish and blotchy, the bottom leaves are dying, and the middle leaves are getting rusty. I tested my pH runoff with the liquid kit, it was red, so I figure it is wayyy too low. I flushed my plants with some tap water that I added pH down to because I thought it was too high for the flush. After the flush I gave them their first feeding of nutes.. I did this because I thought the flush would have leached any nutrients out of the soil. I then realized that the pH down water + nutes I fed them probably further lowered my pH, so their next watering I flushed with just my plain old water straight out of the tap which has a high pH. Their pH is still low and they are looking very nutrient defecient. What can I do to save them?? how should I water? I was thinking maybe watering with straight purified drinking water from the supermarket then alternating with my tap water + nutes (this has a lower pH).. would this stabilize the pH?? The purified drinking water probably has a high pH.. I think maybe it would raise the pH of my soil, then I would give them the lower pH + nute water the next watering to lower the pH for their uptake so they are getting the full range of pH. Any advice??

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Originally Posted by xm177e2

Hey everyone, I'm new here and this is my first grow.

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Hey, welcome.

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Originally Posted by xm177e2

Your Equipment:
.1) Type and wattage of lights. 250w MH
.2) Distance from tops? was very close.. <1 ft, I raised it up to 2ft this week

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Likely too far away. Why did you raise it?

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Originally Posted by xm177e2

18) Do you foliar feed? If so, with what, how often, and at what time do you spray? I started doing this yesterday.. a very small dose of FF grow big misted on the leaves out from under the light, placed under the light when they dried

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Good technique, but foliar feeding a stressed plant is usually a good way to compound the problem. A few exceptions, but generally is the case.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by xm177e2

I decided to buy a cheap milwaukee test pen. This was a big mistake. I properly stored and calibrated the pen, but always wondered why its readings didn't coincide with my liquid test.

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Temperatures affect ph pen readings. This might be the begining of the issue, as to be accurate, you need to test the liquids at the same temps every time. The Milwaukee calibrating solution you mentioned have a chart for this on every packet. (or is it a bottle of calib. solution...?)

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Originally Posted by xm177e2

I first noticed something was up when I had to add about 12 drops of pH down to a gallon of tap water to get the pen to read in the 6.5-7.0 range. With the liquid test kit, the indicator solution would turn proper color after 2 drops of pH down per gallon. I trusted the pen instead.

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Did you put the batteries in, facing the wrong direction? Did you get the circuitry inside the pen wet at some point? Did you drop the pen? Did you need to replace the batteries? Did you remove the electrode at some point, and put it in backwards? Did cleaning the crap off of the electrode help?
If the answers are no to all...likely you let the electrode dry-out, and the electrode will need to be replaced.

Quit checking the runoff with the aquarium test kit. It doesn't do anything but confuse the issue. The liquid depends on a color-coded result. With the runoff being tinted...it skews the results. Guessing the proper ph reading isn't a good idea, nor is it even close to accurate.

FFOF is pre-buffered, but after all your attempts to rectify the ph issue, it might be a tad...what's the word...unstable? ...unusable? Would consider a transplant.

Use your aquarium test kit to determine ingoing water ph, and adjust till it say's you are in range. (twords the high range if nutrient day) After adjusting the water, add nutes. From that point on, your ph test kit is done.
Guessing and assuming are bad habits to get into. Ditch the pen till you either get it fixed, or till you get another one.

When using a commercial potting mix, doubtful you need to worry about runoff ph till nearly mid-flower. (when the buffering agent in the potting mix starts to diminish) Some compost mixes (which isn't a potting mix) are pre-buffered to a lower ph. FFOF is properly balanced.

Did you leave the AzaMax on the leaves, or rinse 'em off afterwards?

Guesswork will make every grow an adventure. (or a horror show)

They make calibration solutions in 4.0 and 7.0 ph with the 4.0 being the most important because you are testing mostly for acid. I keep a supply on hand of both and check my meter at least one time a week or anytime I think there may be some reason to doubt the reading i'm getting. The reason being ph'ing the water is one of the most important aspects of getting good growth. Most tap water that I have seen will test 7.0 or higher and will vary slightly from day to day. The ph of water will even change from house to house on the same street. This makes it very difficult to tell someone how much ph down should be going into their water.
Fox Farms Ocean Forest is a little hot and I would have skipped the Grow Big for the first month or at the most a 1/3 dose once a week. If you think about it the plants you have are really just seedlings not full grown adults so why feed them like adults. When you were born did you start off eating rib eye steaks and baked potatoes or was it more like breast milk?
Since you are just starting out write down everything you do and observe what happens. Learn from your mistakes and each grow will get better. Six months from now you will laughing at some of the things you did. That's the fun part of what we do and the most rewarding.

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Originally Posted by Rusty Trichome

Hey, welcome.

Likely too far away. Why did you raise it?

One of my plants leaf margins were curling upwards and the temps were too high at the canopy. Also, my plants wont all fit under the 250w anymore unless its high up.. I am waiting for a 400w to be delivered

Good technique, but foliar feeding a stressed plant is usually a good way to compound the problem. A few exceptions, but generally is the case.


Temperatures affect ph pen readings. This might be the begining of the issue, as to be accurate, you need to test the liquids at the same temps every time. The Milwaukee calibrating solution you mentioned have a chart for this on every packet. (or is it a bottle of calib. solution...?)

Thanks for the tip, but I have been testing water that is of the same temp every time

Did you put the batteries in, facing the wrong direction? Did you get the circuitry inside the pen wet at some point? Did you drop the pen? Did you need to replace the batteries? Did you remove the electrode at some point, and put it in backwards? Did cleaning the crap off of the electrode help?
If the answers are no to all...likely you let the electrode dry-out, and the electrode will need to be replaced.

Pen came with batteries installed, I have been very careful with the pen, never removed electrode, always stored it with water in the cap, it did not dry out at all

Quit checking the runoff with the aquarium test kit. It doesn't do anything but confuse the issue. The liquid depends on a color-coded result. With the runoff being tinted...it skews the results. Guessing the proper ph reading isn't a good idea, nor is it even close to accurate.

Acually, my runoff water is crystal clear.. it is very easy to read with the aquarium test kit.. it turned red which was easily visible and as far as I could tell, not skewed

FFOF is pre-buffered, but after all your attempts to rectify the ph issue, it might be a tad...what's the word...unstable? ...unusable? Would consider a transplant.

Yes, the pH is now certainly unstable.. but with all the stress and shock to the plants, i dont wanna risk a transplant. I am a begginner and I already killed a plant trying to transplant it. This and I cant even afford a new bag of soil at this point :( (grow has me flat broke at the moment)

Use your aquarium test kit to determine ingoing water ph, and adjust till it say's you are in range. (twords the high range if nutrient day) After adjusting the water, add nutes. From that point on, your ph test kit is done.
Guessing and assuming are bad habits to get into. Ditch the pen till you either get it fixed, or till you get another one.

Pen is officially ditched.. although had I not tested the runoff of the soil, I wouldn't have known what was causing my problem

When using a commercial potting mix, doubtful you need to worry about runoff ph till nearly mid-flower. (when the buffering agent in the potting mix starts to diminish) Some compost mixes (which isn't a potting mix) are pre-buffered to a lower ph. FFOF is properly balanced.

Again, since my plants were showing signs of a serious pH issue, I think it was a good idea that I tested the runoff, otherwise I wouldn't have known what causing the issue

Did you leave the AzaMax on the leaves, or rinse 'em off afterwards?

Left it on once, didnt seem to hurt them.. it was a very low dose. The second time they were rinsed.

Guesswork will make every grow an adventure. (or a horror show)

Tell me about it :cool: I am sick of all this guess work with this stupid aquarium test kit, and I cannot afford ANY pH meter at the current time. I cant tell if the water is supposed to be yellow, green, yellowish green or greenish yellow :wtf:

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Thank you for your help, but this still didnt quite answer my question.. how can i rememdy the problem with my waterings?? what should I do? I do not want to keep using pH down if my soil is so acidic, even if my water needs it to be in the correct range. Should I just water with high pH water from now on and alternate adding nutes every other watering? Liek I said, transplanting is not really something I wanna do, especially this far into it. Is there any other way I can solve this problem?

Hmm I cant edit my previous post, so I will post again. I just watered two of the plants because the pots were getting light. One of them, first I gave a little straight filtered tap water just to check a few drops of runoff. The tap water was greenish yellow when it went it.. and the runoff (which was as clear as the water I gave it) was actually a much darker green, so the soil pH must have gone up. I gave the plant 1/2 strength nutes. I watered a second plant as well, gave it straight pHed tap water and the runoff was slightly more acidic than the water I fed it.. but much closer to the range I am looking for than it was a week ago. I also gave this plant 1/2 strength grow big but I added 2 drops of pH up to the mix. Sadly because of the flushes, and different drying times.. my watering schedule is all off, I can't water them all on the same day. I am gonna watch the plants and continue to give them properly pHed water. When the others dry out I will test their runoff and water/feed accordingly. After I gave the 2 plants nutes today, I noticed that my runoff water was coming out the exact same pH as it went in, the soil was not buffering it at all.

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Originally Posted by Rusty Trichome

Quit checking the runoff with the aquarium test kit. It doesn't do anything but confuse the issue. The liquid depends on a color-coded result. With the runoff being tinted...it skews the results. Guessing the proper ph reading isn't a good idea, nor is it even close to accurate.

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I collect my soil run off then strain it through a coffee filter before testing with an aquarium test kit. The filtered run off water comes out almost completely clear.
:stoned:

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Originally Posted by DOUGAL25

I collect my soil run off then strain it through a coffee filter before testing with an aquarium test kit. The filtered run off water comes out almost completely clear.
:stoned:

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My runoff comes out crystal clear straight from the soil. It wasnt like this at first, but ever since the flushes, it has been crystal clear. I'm hoping that properly pHed water and nutrients will help my plants.. but I'm not counting on it.

I think your plants really look pretty cute yo. :) Just showing signs of heat and ph stress.

What were your runoff ph's? For all those waterings. Are you in the danger zone? Im not familiar with liquid tests so I dont know what the colors correspond to. :cool:

Also, dont assume your soil is not buffering at all just because your ph was the same going out as it was going in. Could be your soil was very near to that ph already!

Oh, and youll be a lucky gardener that has all your plants on the exact same watering schedule. I do a constant grow, and its a headache trying to keep track of everyone! :)

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Originally Posted by carinia

I think your plants really look pretty cute yo. :) Just showing signs of heat and ph stress.

What were your runoff ph's? For all those waterings. Are you in the danger zone? Im not familiar with liquid tests so I dont know what the colors correspond to. :cool:

Also, dont assume your soil is not buffering at all just because your ph was the same going out as it was going in. Could be your soil was very near to that ph already!

Oh, and youll be a lucky gardener that has all your plants on the exact same watering schedule. I do a constant grow, and its a headache trying to keep track of everyone! :)

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The runoff pH when it was low was in the 4-5 range. The runoff is now higher.. in fact one of the plants I watered today actually had a higher runoff than the water I gave it. I'm just going to water them with consistently pHed water from now on and alternate, pHed water, nutes (with slightly higher pH) and see what happens. One problem is that my water has way too much chlorine, I guess I will have to start letting it sit out over a night or two then lower its pH before watering. I think the high chlorine content of my tap is what caused the initial yellow of the leaf tips. The foliar feedings dont seem to be hurting them, the leaves look a little bit more normal around the edges since I started. I am keeping the light backed off for now, it is not enough light and they are stretching and barely growing, but my 400w should be showing up fairly soon and I will be able to keep that a fair enough distance from the canopy while still getting enough lumens to the plants. I'm attaching another picture.. but the camera never seems to show the problems, it makes them look much nicer than they really do. Most of the plants (except for one) have very pale yellowish leaves and look like they are exhibiting the early stages of chlorosis. I know, they are small for a lil over a month old, but for all the problems I have, I am surpised they are even still alive

Wow I feel your Situation,
First off Ph is sometimes difficult to deal with as your experiencing.
I also have the Milwakee ph-600 pen paid like 20-25 for it delivered off of e-bay and I like it. I also got a bottle of General Hydroponics 7.0 calibration solution and it also serves as a storage solution. The pen works really well but does need to occasional tweek(calibration) mabey once or twice a week. but once its dialed in its great. I also have the general hydroponics ph test kit. but i ditched that after seeing my nutrient solution when mixed resembles a tea like color and thats at 1/4 strength. But my point is a color test kit is useless because you need to check the nutrient solution after you add the nutrient's to the water and thats why ya need the ph meter. I never tried FF and dont know if you have the same color change as I do. but if you do for now try to calibrate the ph pen with your color ph test kit. get your water use the test kit for a reading and then use the pen in the same water and with the little blue screwdriver it came with dial it in to the color test kits reading. Mind you doing it this way is not as accurate but you will get your pen back in range and be able to fix your problem, do this till you can get some calibration solution and for the ph-600 milwakee says you need a 7.01 cal solution which i cant see why since it only reads to the tenth not the hundreth. Like I said earlier i got the GH 7.0 cal solution and i swear by it all.

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Originally Posted by 420barista

Wow I feel your Situation,
First off Ph is sometimes difficult to deal with as your experiencing.
I also have the Milwakee ph-600 pen paid like 20-25 for it delivered off of e-bay and I like it. I also got a bottle of General Hydroponics 7.0 calibration solution and it also serves as a storage solution. The pen works really well but does need to occasional tweek(calibration) mabey once or twice a week. but once its dialed in its great. I also have the general hydroponics ph test kit. but i ditched that after seeing my nutrient solution when mixed resembles a tea like color and thats at 1/4 strength. But my point is a color test kit is useless because you need to check the nutrient solution after you add the nutrient's to the water and thats why ya need the ph meter. I never tried FF and dont know if you have the same color change as I do. but if you do for now try to calibrate the ph pen with your color ph test kit. get your water use the test kit for a reading and then use the pen in the same water and with the little blue screwdriver it came with dial it in to the color test kits reading. Mind you doing it this way is not as accurate but you will get your pen back in range and be able to fix your problem, do this till you can get some calibration solution and for the ph-600 milwakee says you need a 7.01 cal solution which i cant see why since it only reads to the tenth not the hundreth. Like I said earlier i got the GH 7.0 cal solution and i swear by it all.

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I calibrated the Milwaukee pH pen every time before using it.. it was always all over the place and did not give consistent readings. My GH pH indicator dye works fine with my nutrient solution. I always check the water after adding the nutes and the color is yellow. My pen came with the 7.01 calibration solution and I was calibrating it every time prior to using it. I just dont trust it, it doesnt correspond with the colors on the liquid test, it is way off. Trying to calibrate it to the ambiguous colors of the test liquid would be a shot in the dark and is not worth it.

i dont trust the powdered calibration solutions because you mixing the powder with an unknown variable. I have seen distilled water vary in ph same brand even once was 7.5 and another was 6.8 and with that varience i cant see a powered solution being accurate. and mind you the pen's reading will fluctuate till the solution in the pen acclamates to the solution your testing. usually takes 30 secs to a min to settle. and for now till you can get some pre mixed 7.0 solution I would use your manual test kit to cal the pen and i dont know if you noticed but when calibrating sometimes after removing the screwdriver the numbers jump you need to tweek it lightly till the number stays where you want after removing the screwdriver.

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Originally Posted by 420barista

i dont trust the powdered calibration solutions because you mixing the powder with an unknown variable. I have seen distilled water vary in ph same brand even once was 7.5 and another was 6.8 and with that varience i cant see a powered solution being accurate. and mind you the pen's reading will fluctuate till the solution in the pen acclamates to the solution your testing. usually takes 30 secs to a min to settle. and for now till you can get some pre mixed 7.0 solution I would use your manual test kit to cal the pen and i dont know if you noticed but when calibrating sometimes after removing the screwdriver the numbers jump you need to tweek it lightly till the number stays where you want after removing the screwdriver.

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I did not use powder.. it was liquid 7.01 solution

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Originally Posted by xm177e2

I calibrated the Milwaukee pH pen every time before using it.. it was always all over the place and did not give consistent readings. My GH pH indicator dye works fine with my nutrient solution. I always check the water after adding the nutes and the color is yellow. My pen came with the 7.01 calibration solution and I was calibrating it every time prior to using it. I just dont trust it, it doesnt correspond with the colors on the liquid test, it is way off. Trying to calibrate it to the ambiguous colors of the test liquid would be a shot in the dark and is not worth it.

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You can test a clean cup of water with all the means at your disposal, (liquid test kit and ph pen) then, take the same cup of water to the local aquarium store and have them test it for ya. Will give you a very good idea which is correct. I suspect your ph pen's electrode is toast. Mine just took a dump yesterday, too. :(

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Originally Posted by Rusty Trichome

You can test a clean cup of water with all the means at your disposal, (liquid test kit and ph pen) then, take the same cup of water to the local aquarium store and have them test it for ya. Will give you a very good idea which is correct. I suspect your ph pen's electrode is toast. Mine just took a dump yesterday, too. :(

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i dont know why the elcetrode would be toast, its brand new. Okay, we have extablished that my pH pen is no goood. But I still wanna know, what kind of water should I give my plants.. my tap water is very hard and extremely chlorinated. Is there any kinda water I can buy at the supermarket to give my plants??

Honestly...I'd at least try to use your properly ph'd tapwater. Just let it sit-out uncovered overnight, which dissipates the chlorine. I use pretty hard wellwater myself, (260 to 300 mg/L) and have no ill effects. Used it for my coral tanks, too, but admittedly used it half-n-half with R/O water. Worth the effort to at least find out the plants reaction to it. Could save shitloads of effort and money.

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Originally Posted by Rusty Trichome

Honestly...I'd at least try to use your properly ph'd tapwater. Just let it sit-out uncovered overnight, which dissipates the chlorine. I use pretty hard wellwater myself, (260 to 300 mg/L) and have no ill effects. Used it for my coral tanks, too, but admittedly used it half-n-half with R/O water. Worth the effort to at least find out the plants reaction to it. Could save shitloads of effort and money.

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i must say my tap water isnt even fit for human consumption. I have let it sit out for 2 days once (which raised the pH through the roof) and it still reeked of chlorine.. very chemical smelling. The plants dont seem to like it, and now the runoff color is coming out the same color as the water that goes in, the soil isnt buffering it at all. All of the plants are showing chlorosis and the lower leaves are yellowing then dying. I need to find a solution to my watering problems. I wish I could just give them straight distilled or R/O water, it would make things so much easier for me.

I think the logical thing for you to do is go to Ebay and purchase another ph pen, calibrate it, and use it. I would concetrate on the water going in first. After you solve those problems then you can start checking the run off. If you can not get the ingoing water properly ph'd you will never get the run off balanced to your liking. I hate to be the one to break this news to you but the bottled drinking water that you purchase at the store more than likely came from a tap just like the one you have in your home and will have a ph of around 7.0.

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Originally Posted by ditdotter

I think the logical thing for you to do is go to Ebay and purchase another ph pen, calibrate it, and use it. I would concetrate on the water going in first. After you solve those problems then you can start checking the run off. If you can not get the ingoing water properly ph'd you will never get the run off balanced to your liking. I hate to be the one to break this news to you but the bottled drinking water that you purchase at the store more than likely came from a tap just like the one you have in your home and will have a ph of around 7.0.

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I know it will have a pH of 7.0 but isnt that what I should be using if my runoff is coming out at like 4.0? I dont feel comfortable adding pH down to my tap water to bring it to the correct level when my soil is so insanely acidic already, I'm afraid the pH down is just gonna make the problem worse. I know the stuff at the supermarket is tap water but it has been filtered, my home tap water is so chlorinated, bottled tap water has gotta be better.. Since my soil pH is so low, is it ok if I just water them with high pH water?

Let's try this at a different angle. I do not know how you are watering your plants volume wise. When I water I have a rule that seems to work for me and you may like to try it and see if it works for you also. I water by the size of the pot the plant is sitting in. A one gallon pot receives 1 pint of liquid every other day, a two gallon pot 2 pints every other day, and a 3 gallon pot 3 pints every other day, and so forth. Whenever I decide to flush I just double the amount of liquid going in. If the plants need any more than that they will tell you.
Now by doing this you are not going to have a lot of run off and you do not waste nutes by it running out on the floor...it stays in the pot where it belongs. If you are using so much water that you are having run off each time you water you are basicly flushing everytime you water. Maybe this is worth a try.

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Originally Posted by ditdotter

Let's try this at a different angle. I do not know how you are watering your plants volume wise. When I water I have a rule that seems to work for me and you may like to try it and see if it works for you also. I water by the size of the pot the plant is sitting in. A one gallon pot receives 1 pint of liquid every other day, a two gallon pot 2 pints every other day, and a 3 gallon pot 3 pints every other day, and so forth. Whenever I decide to flush I just double the amount of liquid going in. If the plants need any more than that they will tell you.
Now by doing this you are not going to have a lot of run off and you do not waste nutes by it running out on the floor...it stays in the pot where it belongs. If you are using so much water that you are having run off each time you water you are basicly flushing everytime you water. Maybe this is worth a try.

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This sounds good, I have been giving them slightly too much water per watering, but they still seem to drink it up rather quickly. I have not been feeding any nutes, I tried it once and they didnt seem to like it very much.. I dont think the pH was in the proper range for them to take in the nutrients. Once I get the pH in range, I will start trying to feed them very low dose nutrients again but things arent looking too good, and on top of that, its been over 2 weeks since this guy says he shipped my 400w parcel post and its still not here, I dont think the plants are getting enough light under the 250w

Assuming your water is O.K. the soil needs to be amended, not the water.
When the pH of the run-off is consistently low and you are adding no nutes,
then the soil must be brought up or changed out with a transplant. With everything dialed in this should happen:Water plant with pH of 6.5. If the run-off is a lower pH the soil is holding the nutes and and the plant is drinking up just the water causing a lockout due to high salts in the soil. If the run-off is higher in pH the plant is eating up the food and needs more in the mix. If it comes out the same The feeding is just right. This is why pH is SO important in soil or hydro.