Selecting a Mother

Thought I'd share something here about the need to grow out a fair number of plants from seed, in order to select the best plant(s) for future use as a mother. I constantly see folks here with plant problems that are simply the result of growing one or two seeds, and getting what you got and then looking for help because; 1) too short, doesn't seem to grow "like my friends" plant or 2) my plant has lots of stretch and is lanky or 3) I grew this plant and it was nice and bushy but this strain is so weak it's shitty, etc, etc.

Last month my partner and I got some seeds and decided to grow out the some Shiva Skunk. The seeds are from Sensi and are femmenized 10 pack.
(At the same time we started some auto-flower 3- LR2xAK47 and 4-LR2xsanta maria) All 10 seeds where germinated then planted in containers. Each plant is marked A thru J so when process is done we know who stays and who is "fired".

Here's a couple of pics of them in containers, day or two after the germinated seeds where planted.

About 25 days later, the 10 Shiva Skunks are ready to give clones.
Took at least 2 from every plant, some where willing to give more. But the most I took were 4, just because I'm lazy and did not want to keep soooo many records. BTW, from germination to completion, everything that is important is noted. ie: growth rate and vigor, it's stature, ease to clone and ultimatly how good it finally is.

Couple of pics of the potential moms. I'm sorry I did not line them up for a photo so you could see the differences in height between them in just 25 days. (back rows are the autos) And 3 pics of the cuttings in the EZ-clonner with thier name tags. Now I know the tags look big, but they will grow into them. Plus these will stay with the plants for the complete life cycle including harvest, drying, and tasteing. Like I said before, notes about each at every stage. We will be looking for a plant that is first potent, then short and tight nodes, easiest to clone etc. (plants on right of clonner are Apricot that came out of clonner and are doing a little veg time till going to bloom room)

good thread oldmac! subscribed.


-shake

Thought I should add this.

Since these where fem seeds, 10 seemed like a good amount. If I was using regular seeds I would normally start 20 seeds figuring I would lose some to males. If I was looking for a breeding mother I might start even more.

It is the only way to find a good representation of the strain, there is just too much variation in seeds and the less stable the strain the greater the variation.

Hope this might help someone.

I'm on board, looking forward to the learning

Thanks Headshake.

The meat and potatoes are already here. Updates will occur but slowly.
This is a very slow process, just watching the grass grow now. But it is the only way I have found to try and keep the level of genetics where it should be, and to get a strain ready for real production.

Hello McDanger,

Not sure how much is to be learned here, but I will encouage questions and kibbitzing while we wait.

In fact I guess I'll need to build a porch here, for my all my rowdy friends.

A few days after giving up some cuttings, the 10 plants that where started from seed, where put into bloom @ 12/12. Tallest plant was abt 2' and shortest abt 1', with the average about 20-22". This is taller then I would normally bloom plants for production, but wanted to see what a fair representation of the plant was like.

One week later and some of the cuttings are ready to plant, others will come along later. In the selection process how quick a plant roots is very important. Notes were taken on when first roots appeared on which plants.
An example of how to get taken out of the gene pool, is our plant "D", out of four cuttings none are ready to plant, and just 2 show the start of a root (a snaggle tooth). So unless plant D turns out to be a ton better when finished then the others, it's a gonner.

Pic of roots @ 7 days.

Great thread! I have been reading a lot of your posts lately oldmac and I am impressed with your knowledge in several areas. I am looking forward to your process here, as it is much more intense than my garden.

I think that as a hobby/beginning grower, growing out a bunch of of plants, cloning them, growing those out, etc. can be a bit overwhelming, as the plant grows like a weed and 10 plants can get out of control fast. Perhaps its just my n00bness, but I had to cut down from trying to do 10 at a time to just doing one or two because it was too much to maintain and outgrew my 5x4 area very quickly.

The way I selected my first mother when I first started was to simply grow out 10 seeds and keep the one that performed the best. I based performance on tightness of the nodes, root size, and overall vigor. The plant I chose performed head and shoulders above the rest. I think if you are new to growing, this is probably the easiest way to begin dealing with a mother plant. Also keep in mind that I got my seeds (Master Kush) from Dutch Passion, so I was assuming the seeds were stable and relatively true breeding.

After getting a year of growing under my belt, I picked up some Purple Kush genes that were essentially bag seeds. I got them from a friend that got them directly from the grower in CA. He said the grower was trying to stabilize his own strain of Purple Kush, and suggested I grow out some seeds and see what I get. He let me sample the buds the seeds came from and I was very impressed with the taste and the heavy body stone. I started 8 seeds, and this time, I took a clone of all of them. In retrospect, I should have taken a few more because only 2 of the 8 survived in the long run (5 clones rooted but I killed 3 of them because of a bunk DWC system I had set up). Long story short, one was green and one was Purple, but they both had the same taste I remembered (or at least what I think I remembered :stoned:) from the bud the seeds came from. Obviously I got rid of the green one and kept the purple one. I am still growing that clone from the Purple plant today, and I can't wait to take some more clones and flower it in the fall.

I didn't go to the extent of actually harvesting and sampling several plants as a you are doing, so this is kind of a simpler and dumbed down version of your methods. Perhaps some n00bz like myself might be able to get their feet wet with this before jumping into your program, so I thought I would add to the thread! Can't wait to see what you find with your seedlot! :thumbsup::jointsmile:

Hello dejayou30,

Thanks for the compliment, I probably read more then I post but I have been encouraged to share some ideas and thinking on subjects other then LEDs.
I actually consider what I do as being a hobbyist, tho a certain production level is necessary to be able to help people in need.

You have a good grasp of the selection process, and if you only base your selection on how a plant grows out of many, you have it at least 95% covered. Like you say, with good seeds that are stabelized there is not too much difference in plants overall, and picking a plant(s) based on best node spacing and growth you probably can't go wrong. What I'm doing here could be short cutted to some extent, but I'm doing it the "oldfashion" way.

BTW: I have a question for you about an answer on another thread dealing with 24/0 vs. 18/6 (which is best?). I'll pose it to you there and hope you can help me out.

Oldmacâ?¦I much appreciate the tip you gave me on the other threadâ?¦.and, it brought me here to information that I need also. Youâ??re a fine teacher, and teaching a much needed subject. With laws changing as they are, I imagine the newb population is running rampant.
Iâ??m a newbboomerâ?¦Iâ??m a newbboomerâ?¦â?¦kinda catchy, donâ??t you think. Yeah I knowâ?¦..some people just shouldnâ??t sing. But if Neil Young made it as a singerâ?¦.anything is possible!

Horsemanoncerocked.

Quick update, since last time rooted cuttings where planted into containers of P-mix, and are rooting nicely under the T5 HOs (plus actinic white).

But time is up, and these last three cuttings have reached my arbitrary and coprecius dead line. Speaking of dead these 3 cuttings represent 2 plants that are the weakest link and are banished from the gene pool.

Here's a couple of shoots of the original 10 plants grown from seed, sharing a 1000kwatt HPS, with a small batch of much smaller Apricot plants, in the bloom room.

This is off the topic of mother selection but it's fun to experiment alittle.
Mentioned before about starting some auto flowers....had to put the 4- LR2Xsanta marias' into the bloom room a couple of weeks ago since they were not "auto-flowering" like the 3-LR2XAK47 where. Here's some picks of the AKs.
Note: just found 2 of the LR2XSM in the flower room tonight with 'nanas, yup hermethodites. Took them and tossed them out immediately. BE gone you damned abominations!
Plus I can't resist, also some pics of batch of Apricot under the hybred T5/LED light. I just love the colors.

Hey there Horsemanrocks,

Glad to see you stopped by. Sorta a slow thing I have going here.
But I'm trying to do my best to document my selection process, but it never grows fast enough for me.

Speaking of slow.......
Just had a server melt down and my last pics did not make it thru.
So here goes the "shits and giigles" pics again.

Almost a month ago I started some 25yr old indica bagseed from a very large local guerilla grow. Most germed and all cracked in 36hrs. Iâ??m a newb and immediately thought that I was in â??tall cottonâ?�. As it turns out one has outperformed the others by a lot.
I only started 6 and you have me thinking that a larger gene pool would be a very fine idea indeed. I have plenty of seed, and even though Iâ??m a frugal sort, in the morning itâ??s time to see if there are any more â??out performersâ?� waiting in the wingsâ?¦er..freezer.

Comment on old seed if you feel so inclined (not me, the mj seed) and while so many hold their breath any comments on soils, lighting, or maybe some Jessica Simpson pictures would be good

Hasta la later,
Horsemanwillrockagain

Yo Horse,

I have a bunch of old seeds stored, and have germed some that where over 30 years old. My observations have been that really old seeds tend to either germ or not, and the older they are the higher the number of "nots". And the amount of strange or mutant starts are the same as fresh seeds. So my conclusion is that there is no harm geneticly to long term storage, just the amount of viable seeds decreases.

And the larger the gene pool the better. My rule of thumb has been 10 minium for feminized seed 20 for regular seeds. All of that said I realize that lucky beats hard work. I once had two seeds from Africa, something we called "black hockey puck" back then. Only one germed, but turned out to be a "perfect" plant in all respects. Go figure.

Jessica Simspon? How about Veronica Lake! (go look that one up in a history book)LOL

But, fo' da 'zard. it's always been...

Lauren Bacall y'all.:lovestruck:

<sigh>

Weeze

How old are you guys?

YouTube - Jessica Simpson - These Boots Are Made For Walkin'

ThisrocksHorseman

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Originally Posted by oldmac

The seeds are from Sensi and are femmenized 10 pack.

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The very latest of Sensi's fem lines. Very tasty. I don't know when you got yours but for the first 72 hours or so after the launch, they were cheaper than the regs. LOL typo on the Sensi shop page had them listed for about 30 euros.

I'll be drooling on the sidelines through this one.

sara :jointsmile:

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Originally Posted by Horsemanrocks

How old are you guys?

YouTube - Jessica Simpson - These Boots Are Made For Walkin'

ThisrocksHorseman

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older than dirt...:thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by sarah louise

The very latest of Sensi's fem lines. Very tasty. I don't know when you got yours but for the first 72 hours or so after the launch, they were cheaper than the regs. LOL typo on the Sensi shop page had them listed for about 30 euros.

I'll be drooling on the sidelines through this one.

sara :jointsmile:

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Hi sarah louise,

Not even sure what we paid for them, my partner bought a bunch of different seeds from a vendor in UK. We did pick the Sensi shiva skunk mostly for the short flowering time and we had heard it was tasty. Went the fem route 'cause I'm too lazy to grow out 20 regular seeds. After we grow out this stuff and select a mom(s), I think we'll do some Hindu Kush by Barney's next. You're welcome to kibbitz here while we wait.

Hey Weezard, I met Lauren Bacall amount 3 years ago. What a lovely lady, and she is still absolutely beatuifull, even at her age.

Yo Dutch, Glad you stopped by finally. Nice choice but I think Elvria would kill you. And if you are older then dirt....what the hell am I.

And Horse, Think you'll find this group is about the same age, "old hippy" vintage, except me I'm a little older "old beat-nik" generation.
The others have heard this, don't think you have, as Willie Nelson said on his 75th birthday and it fits me perfectly "I've out livied my dick." How's that for old?

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Yo Dutch, Glad you stopped by finally. Nice choice but I think Elvria would kill you.

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...that's the plan I have for retirement....:thumbsup:...and you're older than rock!

When is this thing gonna get started. Iâ??m an â??old hippieâ?� and I wanna get on with it while Iâ??m still youngâ?¦â?¦.and believe me, there ainâ??t that much time left.
I imagine a few of you followed the link to the Willie Nelson video that I left. It appears Oldmac did or was it merely coincidence that he immediately started thinking of Willie��.?? Gotta love that Willie!

The Newb question of the evening is: In a Cervantes video on youtube Jorge says â??donâ??t worry you canâ??t overwater themâ?� but doesnâ??t elaborate on when that ceases to be true. Any conversation?

Looking forward to 4th of July
Horsemancouldrockagain.

Yippe Ki Aaaaah Horsemanrocks,

I've been a big Willie Nelson fan for a long time. Went to see him in concert almost two years ago outside Austin,Tx for a NORML benefit. It was an outdoor amplitheater, every seat was in the smoking section! Tho me and my side kick Tonto were looking for the vape section...you know old lungs. (I like to travel with my housmate 'cause he makes me look young, we think he's 91, but won't be sure till we cut him open and count the rings)

I believe when times are tough or your facing adversity, you need to stop and reflect, then ask yourself....what would Willie do? That's when I reach for the SSV vape and do some. Ahhhhhhhhh things get so much better.

I just recently did extensive looking for something dejayou30 mention about photoperiods and Cervantes. I really need to get a copy of his book to see what he says about a few things. That particular video I have not seen, but will look for it. If he's talking about just the way to water in a container grown plant he's right. Water it till it runs out the drain holes, and soak the heck out of it. You can't overwater it. But then you need to let the container to dry out before you do it again. So if you water it too often you could overwater it. Hmmmm. We need context here.

BTW I gave the shiva skunk girls a good feeding and a pep talk. Told them how there were clones in waiting to fufill thier legacy and they better hurry the F up 'cause Horseman was anxious. I got no reply...they is just dumb ass plants, and I can't wait to exploit thier best traits to my advantage.:D

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Originally Posted by oldmac

I just recently did extensive looking for something dejayou30 mention about photoperiods and Cervantes. I really need to get a copy of his book to see what he says about a few things. That particular video I have not seen, but will look for it. If he's talking about just the way to water in a container grown plant he's right. Water it till it runs out the drain holes, and soak the heck out of it. You can't overwater it. But then you need to let the container to dry out before you do it again. So if you water it too often you could overwater it. Hmmmm. We need context here.

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Yeah....that makes more sense. Cervantes was saying you can't overwater it, but I was thinking how can't you when people do it all the time. Then I sat and realized maybe the overwatering is not caused by too much water in one time, but more of too much water given over a period of time...leading to overwatering. Which lead me to believe why letting the soil "dry" out is so important before watering again. Glad you posted this so I could realize what it was he meant exactly by, "You can't overwater them." Kudos! :thumbsup:

Hey Italiano, I'm guessing that's what he meant, I could be wrong.

I saw a great tag line on another site:

How you tell when a container grown plant needs water...lift the pot!

Just love the common sence approach. And that's what I do now in the grow you see pics of. Container growing using P-mix, it's how I started a long time ago indoors. And for all the pain in the ass "dirt" growing is....it beats the crap outta rockwool in my other set-up. Not in production but in the pain in the ass dept. RW is such crap to dispose of, took me two years to come up with a method to "destroy the evidence" when done with it.

what would Willie do?

Between you and Italiano itâ??s clearâ?¦.
The video is on youtube. Itâ??s one that isnâ??t presently restricted. Itâ??s his ultimate grow #7 about 7min and 15sec in. Totally understandable now though.

I just recently did extensive looking for something dejayou30 mention about photoperiods and Cervantes. I really need to get a copy of his book to see what he says about a few things.

Just found an Ed Rosenthal link late last nightâ?¦..so I havenâ??t spent any time with it yet. Might also be of interest? Ask Ed | Cannabis Culture Magazine

BTW I gave the shiva skunk girls a good feeding and a pep talk. Told them how there were clones in waiting to fufill thier legacy and they better hurry the F up 'cause Horseman was anxious. I got no reply...they is just dumb ass plants, and I can't wait to exploit thier best traits to my advantage.

Donâ??t know how they could help but respond to that.

Thanks for the entertainment
HorsemanandWillierock

Hey Horseman,

I have an old Ed Rosenthal (w/Mel Franks) grow guide and I think it is damn good. Earlier this week I got to go to a "big city" and look thru a Borders book store. I could not believe how many mj or mmj grow guides there where. Including a whole book by Rosenthal called "Ed R answers all your questions" which is a compelation of his columns, and was quite good. Of course they had no Cervantes book's, figures.

I much prefer Rosenthal, since he is a grower. Cervantes just seems to visit growers, I have yet to see anything he's grown. Just today I read another post of someone citing Cervantes, as gospel, and again not sure I would agree 100%.

On the Shivas Skunk selection, my partner and I went over all the notes so far, but I was so tired I did not bother to take notes of the notes to post. I'll need to do that in the next day or two and get some pics of the original 10 plants in bloom room. I really can't believe that people grow these things to full size (abt 145cm [4']) according to Sensi seeds, they are way bigger then I normally grow indoors, and are larger then my head space, since I grow on a table. I'm too old to have the plants on the floor and all the bending and stooping it intails. But they are doing well, 1 or 2 are abt 3 1/2' and the rest at 4' or so.

OH well gotta grab some lunch and get my afternoon started. Post more soon.

ED has some good books my first was an ed rosenthal from the along time ago and probly my most used.

that marijuana botany by robert connel clark is a good reader.
Marijuana Botany - Marijuana Growing Guide

just cause you write a book dont mean you can grow great, ive smoked some of the canna bible dudes jason king i think sour d and twreck and a couple others and they were ok not the best they lacked flavor in my opinion

i liked dj shorts work very tasty

i look for flavor on the 3rd and 4th hit of a bowl as a flavor indicator if not its not top shelf. just some insight into my grading

i like this thread, i thought my most vigorous female was gonna be the best and after all said and done it was a slower starter that took off after sexual maturity in veg ended up much more bushy and denser stoneier buds in the end.

I much prefer Rosenthal, since he is a grower. Cervantes just seems to visit growers, I have yet to see anything he's grown. Just today I read another post of someone citing Cervantes, as gospel, and again not sure I would agree 100%.

I came up with the books that I did because they were the textbooks on Oaksterdamâ??s site. I figured that it couldnâ??t be a terrible place to start. I cite Cervantes because itâ??s what I have. I got no dog in this fight and have no reason to defend Cervantesâ?¦..but possibly not claiming some of those grows as his own could serve a purpose. I see posts on this site with us Newbs doing â??everything wrongâ?� and have some nice looking stuff. I see a lot of room for latitude. I do know that there is no 100%. I do give Cervantes credit for being in one hell of a lot of â??private placesâ?�, and that leads to an incredible overview. Having that reference at hand with an index is handy. (In retrospect that really looks like defending himâ?¦â?¦not my intent)This leads me into my evening rant:
In this sites favor I saw a post that compliments this site on a more â??adultâ?� content than othersâ?¦..on that I agree wholeheartedly. (itâ??s why I mostly hang here) I do get a little testy when a respondent suggests that the newb uses the search engineâ?¦â?¦IMnotsoHO the search engine here SUCKS! I certainly get info quicker from a text.
Anybody leaving feedback on their favorite Rosenthal bookâ?¦..Iâ??d be obliged!

Schools now test early and arrange classes by learning skills. Some visual, some auditory, etcâ?¦..I cite the youtube videos because with the audio and video combined I seem to retain it better. I suggest that approach to all newbs. It helps create a mental picture. The key to Carnegieâ??s memory course. The sad part being is that to make space for the new pictures, Iâ??ve had to delete just tons of old Raquel Welsh pictures stored in that gray matter that have quite frankly served me well for many yearsâ?¦..I sure hope that it turns out to be worth it!

Phatsesh
Good link��loads of info�..how about somebody give me a call and read it to me, the auditory part really helps.

Iâ??ll miss you Raquel,
Horsemanrocks

Thanks from me too, Phatesh101, just saved it and will read it when I get a chance. Noticed the intro by Mel Frank, so it should hold some water.

And Horseman, sorry about losing Racquel but some other info in your brain might be a good thing.
You make a goodpoint about about newbs asking questions, I cringe sometimes when they get the bums rush with "google it"...like you point out it don't work that easy when you really are trying to find something on this site. But on the other hand some qestions are so basic it would be nice if they read something , anything on the subject first.

My atittude is to try to help anyone if they have a good decent approach and really need help. Some I've seen are past help and nothing I say will help them...or you just don't know where to begin.

Hey you can defend Cervantes, I don't have a problem with him, in fact like I said I was looking for his book to actually buy it. I thought it might be a good reference. I personally use a textbook I got 3 years ago for a horti class; "Horticulture, Principles and Practices" by George Acquash. It cost me abt $110, so it became my "go to" book for all things growing. Besides mmj I also dabble with wine vines used in viniculture. I've propagated vines for some wineries, including setting up a 5yr propagation program that takes only 3 years to do. (short days, shorten seasons all done indoors under artifical light and controlled enviroment)

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Originally Posted by oldmac

We did pick the Sensi shiva skunk mostly for the short flowering time and we had heard it was tasty. Went the fem route 'cause I'm too lazy to grow out 20 regular seeds.

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I think you heard right about the taste... definitely one of the better tasting skunks.

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After we grow out this stuff and select a mom(s), I think we'll do some Hindu Kush by Barney's next. You're welcome to kibbitz here while we wait.

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Thanks, seeing as this looks to be the un-official 'old as dirt' corner, I feel quite at home already.

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Thanks, seeing as this looks to be the un-official 'old as dirt' corner, I feel quite at home already.

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...:wtf:

Oldmac, how did I miss this thread? And yes, I am stalking you...:computerlove1:

I may be tardy but I'll catch up. Subscribed.

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Thanks, seeing as this looks to be the un-official 'old as dirt' corner, I feel quite at home already.

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Hmmm, you got us figured out already.

Hi Sarah Louise,

Actually it's Dutch Pimp who is older then dirt, he says that makes me older then rock. LOL. Nice to have you stop by, it's allows nice to have mutually interested company.

Horseman, just mentioned that someone said this site seems to be more "mature" then some sites. Wait he actually said more "adult", hmmm that could be taken a different way I guess.

I must admit I was surprised by some peoples' ages here, but in thinking about it, it does makes sence. The generation that came up thru the 60's is much more accepting of the use of mj and by extension the use of mj medically. It is a much tougher sale for the older generation to accept. I often deal with patients (70-75+) who have such a negative feeling about using mj that they would rather suffer then try it. If I can't make the case for it at my age I trot out my housemate Tonto, who is 91 and show them what a help it has been to him. Many of my older patients have thier childeren who are in thier late 50's to early 60's who are pushing them to "at least" try it. And that has helped alot in bringing mmj to those that could use it.

Hey Crabbyback,

You probably missed it 'cause I posted it in basic growing, and lots of us skip over that or make it a last stop after our favorite areas. I put this here because I thought selecting a mom was a basic concept, tho in retrospect maybe it's an advance technique.

I don't mind being stalked, at least by you. When I first started out here it seemed I had a few anti-fans who stalked me just to knock my questions or answers. That type of stalking I don't need, makes me get real cranky real fast. BTW I see you posting more, passing on good info and trying to help those that could appreciate it. Good job.

Yo Dutch,

I'll try to post some more pics soon. I kicked myself last night for not having my camera with me. I had to move all 10 shivs skunks that are in flower for watering, it would have been a perfect time to line them up and get pictures of the girls together. :D Everybody say cheese:D

"You can lead a horse to water, but, you can't make them drink"

adult crowd its a darn senior center in here pretty soon youll be asking me to find the remote

does your roomy remember the pre prophibition era, and did he puff back then stuff from the pharmacy?