Leaves Curling and a Bit Leathery

My first indoor grow and the 4 week old plant's leaves don't look good. The first few sets of leaves were turning yellow and brown. As soon as I had more leaves I removed the first ones. I notices a few gnats so sprayed the remaining leaves and soil once with SchultzGarden Safe/ Fruit & Vegetable InsectKiller. Now the yellow/brown symptoms are gone but the leaves now are curling and look a bit leathery. Here is my questionnaire and I will add more photos in another post. I have been lurking on the Boards and this is a great resource. I hope you can help me out.
E-indoor
E-soil
E-specific medium ?
CSL-Miracle Grow Potting Mix
HCL-N/A
SCL-Anything you have added to the soil - Nada
SCLR-Soil or slab runoff pH - Donâ??t know yet
E-Water source - Tap
E-Source water pH- Donâ??t know yet
HRT-Source water EC (if hydro) N/A
E-Age of plant-Sprouted April 27, 4 weeks old
E-Type of fertilizer-None yet
E-Rate of application N/A
E-Lighting source and distance from plant- 27W CFL, 5500K, 2â?� from top
E-Air temperature (both day and night if you are running a dark period) 73f
HD-Reservoir temperature N/A
E-Air % Relative humidity 47%
E-Lighting schedule 24/0
E-Type of ventilation your room has - None, open the door once each day 4â?? X 5â?? room
TR-Did you pre-soak your media in pH corrected solution? N/A

Here are a few more photos. The last one is of 2 new babies starting the same way but no symptoms so far.

Unless you completely drowned the plants in that insecticide, it probably isn't what's causing those problems. I'd definitely test the pH of your tap water and your soil as soon as you can, though. Looks like it could be some kind of nutrient lockout, which can be caused by wacky pH, and can also cause spotting and contorted leaves. Even if this isn't the cause, it's always a good idea to know your pH.

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Originally Posted by Mr. Clandestine

Unless you completely drowned the plants in that insecticide, it probably isn't what's causing those problems. I'd definitely test the pH of your tap water and your soil as soon as you can, though. Looks like it could be some kind of nutrient lockout, which can be caused by wacky pH, and can also cause spotting and contorted leaves. Even if this isn't the cause, it's always a good idea to know your pH.

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I misted the leaves to the point of dripping and basically wet the surface of the soil. I will do the pH tests in a few days. I have the Hanna tester but didn't get the calibrating solution which is on the way. Thanks for your reply.

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Originally Posted by nevergetsold

Here are a few more photos. The last one is of 2 new babies starting the same way but no symptoms so far.

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I have been having the exact same problem. The curling seems to start after there is other new growth above it, all new growth looks great. I have now flushed twice with ph6.5 water so I think I have it in check. I was using a soil mix with a lot on composted manure in it and I think that was the problem, too much N. Your MG soil may be your problem even without adding nutes. What strains? I have white widow, purple urkle X purple kush X trainwreck cross, and some indoor mix from Joey Weed and they are all doing it. :jointsmile:
The leaves are very dark green, and shiny like leather but if you feel them they are soft for about 2weeks then they dry and die. Also it seems only to be on the big fan leaves on the main stalk, the leaves on the side shoots don't have it.:wtf:
I'll keep watching to see if you get it fixed.:thumbsup:
One good thing about it though, it does not seem to be hurting the overall health of the plants, but it seems growth has slowed.
Good luck, I have been fighting this for about a month now.:cool:

Points to ponder...

Miracle Grow has gotten quite a bum rap, and supports cannabis fine, if you take it's nutrients into considderation. The nutes will last a seedling around 4 to 5 weeeks or so. (depending on quantity and frequency of water poured-through, and temps) After 5 weeks in MG soil, I used to start 'em on half-strength doses of my veg fert and Superthrive. Full strength by 5 or 6 weeks or so.

What's in those peat pots? Is that what Miracle Gro Moisture Control looks like now-a-days? If so...you could use some added perlite, and remove the larger chunks of wood and bark. Gnats lay their eggs under that crap.

Would find-out about your ph asap.

Did you rinse the leaves after the insecticide spray(s)? (the insecticide can clog the pores in the leaves which restricts o2/co2 exchange...in other words...the leaves suffocate.)

Are you letting them dry between waterings?

No superthrive or other micronute, hormones or steroids? Spraying with anything other than fresh water and insecticides?

Fresh air provides fresh co2. Would open the closet up for as long as practical or possible.

As has been previously debated in other threads, I'm not a firm believer in the 24/0 light schedule. Especially if there is ongoing damage. Have you tried 18/6?

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Originally Posted by McDanger

I have been having the exact same problem. The curling seems to start after there is other new growth above it, all new growth looks great. I have now flushed twice with ph6.5 water so I think I have it in check. I was using a soil mix with a lot on composted manure in it and I think that was the problem, too much N. Your MG soil may be your problem even without adding nutes. What strains? I have white widow, purple urkle X purple kush X trainwreck cross, and some indoor mix from Joey Weed and they are all doing it. :jointsmile:
The leaves are very dark green, and shiny like leather but if you feel them they are soft for about 2weeks then they dry and die. Also it seems only to be on the big fan leaves on the main stalk, the leaves on the side shoots don't have it.:wtf:
I'll keep watching to see if you get it fixed.:thumbsup:
One good thing about it though, it does not seem to be hurting the overall health of the plants, but it seems growth has slowed.
Good luck, I have been fighting this for about a month now.:cool:

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McDanger: First, thanks for the reply. The condition of the leaves that you describe pretty much match what I have been seeing. This plant is now about 5 weeks old and about 7" tall. I don't know what strains they are as they were gifts from a friend who liked the source. Here is some additional info since I posted. I haven't watered the tall one for four days, and I changed the lights from 2-23W 5500 CFL's at 1600 lumens each, to 3-32W 6500 CFL's at 2100 lumens each. So I went from 3200 to 6300 lumens at a higer kelvin reading. Next time I will pay attention to suggestions on the board and use different growing media. It may be coincidence but the plant looks better. See photos.

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Originally Posted by Rusty Trichome

Points to ponder...

Miracle Grow has gotten quite a bum rap, and supports cannabis fine, if you take it's nutrients into considderation. The nutes will last a seedling around 4 to 5 weeeks or so. (depending on quantity and frequency of water poured-through, and temps) After 5 weeks in MG soil, I used to start 'em on half-strength doses of my veg fert and Superthrive. Full strength by 5 or 6 weeks or so.

What's in those peat pots? Is that what Miracle Gro Moisture Control looks like now-a-days? If so...you could use some added perlite, and remove the larger chunks of wood and bark. Gnats lay their eggs under that crap.

Would find-out about your ph asap.

Did you rinse the leaves after the insecticide spray(s)? (the insecticide can clog the pores in the leaves which restricts o2/co2 exchange...in other words...the leaves suffocate.)

Are you letting them dry between waterings?

No superthrive or other micronute, hormones or steroids? Spraying with anything other than fresh water and insecticides?

Fresh air provides fresh co2. Would open the closet up for as long as practical or possible.

As has been previously debated in other threads, I'm not a firm believer in the 24/0 light schedule. Especially if there is ongoing damage. Have you tried 18/6?

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Rusty: Thank you for your reply. I have read many negative comments about MG but used it because it was here. I am at the 5 week point on the tall one and have transplanted once from the peat pot to this ceramic pot about two weeks ago. Because it is not a tapered pot I am getting ready to transplant it into a "proper" 1 gallon pot before it gets locked into this one. So far no nutes, just water, and at first I was watering every day which I understand is typical for a noobe. I finally backed off the last two weeks and have left it without water for five days. Today I did water again. I did rinse the leaves the day after I sprayed, using a clean water mister. I agree about the closet but need to be careful about leaving it open unattended. I am also getting ready to install a vortex type 4" fan and charcoal filter for odor control (it is starting to smell nice) and air exchange. I have only run lighting at 24/0. If I were to change to 18/6 could that confuse these little green guys into thinking it is time to flower?

It is the same MG in the peat pots. Great suggestion about the large chunks of wood and bark, I will clean them out.

I have made some changes that might be helping (see my reply above to McDanger)

Ah the pH...I am expecting the calibrating solutions to arrive tomorrow and will get right on checking the pH and report back. Here's another shot of the babies.

I must say that these suggestions are really helpful and make me feel like I have really become part of a community of like minded folks. This board is a big help.

I often get leaves like this on my plants after several weeks into flower. I must echo the experts here, get a handle on your pH. It is more than just the pH going in. You might want to add pulverized lime to your MGrow soil to help buffer pH issues. 2TBSP/Gallon.

Ignore me if Rusty says otherwise :)

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Originally Posted by FatSean

I often get leaves like this on my plants after several weeks into flower. I must echo the experts here, get a handle on your pH. It is more than just the pH going in. You might want to add pulverized lime to your MGrow soil to help buffer pH issues. 2TBSP/Gallon.

Ignore me if Rusty says otherwise :)

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FatSean: Thanks for the response. I am still waiting for my calibration solutions to arrive (maybe tomorrow) and I will check pH of the tap water and the runoff and post for advice. The plant seems to be doing fine now but I agree that I need to know the pH.

I'd wait on liming the soil till the water ph and runoff is known. It might take the ph further out of range. Limestone dust (lime) has a ph of around 8.

Do you use Superthrive, or are you adding any micronute formula's? (CalMag, B-1, Botanicare Sweet, molasses, ...)

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Originally Posted by Rusty Trichome

I'd wait on liming the soil till the water ph and runoff is known. It might take the ph further out of range. Limestone dust (lime) has a ph of around 8.

Do you use Superthrive, or are you adding any micronute formula's? (CalMag, B-1, Botanicare Sweet, molasses, ...)

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So far I am just using tap water. I have Pure Blend Pro Grow and Pure Blend Pro Bloom but have not used them yet because I have been waiting for clues that it needs nute's. Should I just start nutes at a certain age regardless? Once I do I planned to start with the Grow. It is 36 days since I put the germinated seed in soil. Looks like my pH solutions will finally arrive tomorrow. How much water should I run through the pot before I measure the runoff pH?
Tks

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Originally Posted by Rusty Trichome

I'd wait on liming the soil till the water ph and runoff is known. It might take the ph further out of range. Limestone dust (lime) has a ph of around 8.

Do you use Superthrive, or are you adding any micronute formula's? (CalMag, B-1, Botanicare Sweet, molasses, ...)

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Finally got the Hanna pH meter calibrated and the tap water pH is 7.5 and the runoff is 7.3. From what I have read 6.8 is better but I don't know if my readings are high enough to require intervention.

I would adjust it. Be careful with the pH down, the stuff I have is concentrated so I only put it in a drop at a time then recheck after mixing. I take mine down to 6.5, so you have a full point to move.
I checked my runoff today and it is low (5.8) after being 6.6 going in. We are getting the same symptoms with different conditions so I don't know what to tell ya. :cool: keep workin on it. :thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by McDanger

I would adjust it. Be careful with the pH down, the stuff I have is concentrated so I only put it in a drop at a time then recheck after mixing. I take mine down to 6.5, so you have a full point to move.
I checked my runoff today and it is low (5.8) after being 6.6 going in. We are getting the same symptoms with different conditions so I don't know what to tell ya. :cool: keep workin on it. :thumbsup:

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McDanger:
I just ordered SaferGro pH Down but won't have it for 5 day's or so. Can I use lemon juice or some other household remedy until then?

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Originally Posted by nevergetsold

McDanger:
I just ordered SaferGro pH Down but won't have it for 5 day's or so. Can I use lemon juice or some other household remedy until then?

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I would use it with caution, one drop at a time and check ph after each drop.

You do not need any expensive ph down. Cheap apple cider vinegar will do the job nicely. This is what Mandala seeds recommends you use on their plants. Also ph the water after you add the nutes not before. My plants seem to like the ph set to 6.2 to 6.3.

Never,
Are you still getting leaves with the problem? Old leaves will not get better.
I just did a mini flush on the 2 I have in flower and it seems I am in the same boat as you. pH 6.7 going in and 7.2 coming out so I think this may be a problem caused by too high pH. I think this is the same reason my clones are not making it. Mothers not in optimal health. I will not be using the soil mixture I made up in the future. This is my fault since I mixed the soil myself. I am 75% sure that at least my problem with this is caused by too much manure in the mix screwing everything up. I also checked my ppm. Going in is 160ppm dehumidifier water with the runoff at over 2400:eek:. I think the ph issue is causing lockout and the nutes are building up in the soil.
Just my :twocents:
It is odd that the leathery look does not start until there are 3 or 4 new nodes above it that look fine.:confused: At least I have somebody else to sort this out with since this does not seem common enough to find using the search function.
I'll check back in a couple days to see if it is getting any better.

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Originally Posted by McDanger

Never,
Are you still getting leaves with the problem? Old leaves will not get better.
I just did a mini flush on the 2 I have in flower and it seems I am in the same boat as you. pH 6.7 going in and 7.2 coming out so I think this may be a problem caused by too high pH. I think this is the same reason my clones are not making it. Mothers not in optimal health. I will not be using the soil mixture I made up in the future. This is my fault since I mixed the soil myself. I am 75% sure that at least my problem with this is caused by too much manure in the mix screwing everything up. I also checked my ppm. Going in is 160ppm dehumidifier water with the runoff at over 2400:eek:. I think the ph issue is causing lockout and the nutes are building up in the soil.
Just my :twocents:
It is odd that the leathery look does not start until there are 3 or 4 new nodes above it that look fine.:confused: At least I have somebody else to sort this out with since this does not seem common enough to find using the search function.
I'll check back in a couple days to see if it is getting any better.

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McDanger:
The new leaves start out fine but as they age they develop the same darker green leathery look. The plant is 5-1/2 weeks old and is 9.5" which is guess is OK but I think it could be better if I could solve the problem. Based on your input and that of the other folks posting here, plus some searching, I have concluded that my problem may be a combination of a high pH, and a lack of potassium. By now it may be lacking the other nutrients as well. What I am going to do this weekend is feed it for the first time with my Pure Blend Pro Grow using a solution adjusted down to 6.0-6.5 pH, adjusted with vinegar. Since my tap water is around 7.5 that will hopefully pull down the pH. I'll take a few photos before and after and post them. Together we may solve this problem.
Tks

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Originally Posted by ditdotter

You do not need any expensive ph down. Cheap apple cider vinegar will do the job nicely. This is what Mandala seeds recommends you use on their plants. Also ph the water after you add the nutes not before. My plants seem to like the ph set to 6.2 to 6.3.

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Ditdotter: Thanks for the tip on the vinegar. I will try it this weekend. I already popped for the pH down but it won't arrive for several days. I will be posting results.

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Originally Posted by ditdotter

My plants seem to like the ph set to 6.2 to 6.3.

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ditdotter: Is the 6.2 to 6.3 the pH of your water/nutes as they are applied, or is that the pH of the runoff? I just fed mine for the first time and added the vinegar and nutes to the water and measured pH of 5.77 before adding to the plant (tap pH alone is 7.52). The runoff measured 7.23. I checked it twice. Looks like my soil is way too basic.

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Originally Posted by nevergetsold

ditdotter: Is the 6.2 to 6.3 the pH of your water/nutes as they are applied, or is that the pH of the runoff? I just fed mine for the first time and added the vinegar and nutes to the water and measured pH of 5.77 before adding to the plant (tap pH alone is 7.52). The runoff measured 7.23. I checked it twice. Looks like my soil is way too basic.

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WOW that is a big jump in pH, I would flush with just pH adjusted water at about 6.2 and I would probably use about 3 gal of water for the flush, then see what your runoff is at the end. I was getting high runoff pH also, but not as much. One thing, I moved 2 into flower and left 2 in veg, the 2 in flower have stopped getting the problem, but the 2 in veg still have it. I think the plants in flower are using whatever is causing the problem for their growth spurt, they have almost doubled in 2weeks and no more leather leaves. So I moved the other 2 into flower today. Only water with a little calmag adjusted to 6.4. I am not going to feed other than some molasses until they show a deficiency.
I think this really has affected the overall health of the plants since I have not been able to get one clone to survive using the same technique that has worked in the past. I will just flower these out and start some more seeds right away. I will be using different soil though.

I got some grapefruti deseil and blue dragon clones they are realtively doing well but AM conserned because they strated doing the same problem you explained...i think its the soil since i used this miracle grow soil i lost 2 clones and the others seem to be be sprouting good just on leaf will look droopy and tips start to curl downwards then that leathery look...but only after they get big the new leaves are good until the next set pops out..let me know how you solve this problem ive been fighting it for bout 2 weeks...hope to fix it soon...better early than later..

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Originally Posted by McDanger

WOW that is a big jump in pH, I would flush with just pH adjusted water at about 6.2 and I would probably use about 3 gal of water for the flush, then see what your runoff is at the end. I was getting high runoff pH also, but not as much. One thing, I moved 2 into flower and left 2 in veg, the 2 in flower have stopped getting the problem, but the 2 in veg still have it. I think the plants in flower are using whatever is causing the problem for their growth spurt, they have almost doubled in 2weeks and no more leather leaves. So I moved the other 2 into flower today. Only water with a little calmag adjusted to 6.4. I am not going to feed other than some molasses until they show a deficiency.
I think this really has affected the overall health of the plants since I have not been able to get one clone to survive using the same technique that has worked in the past. I will just flower these out and start some more seeds right away. I will be using different soil though.

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tdoe805er same effect happening on my clones

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I got some grapefruti deseil and blue dragon clones they are realtively doing well but AM conserned because they strated doing the same problem you explained...i think its the soil since i used this miracle grow soil i lost 2 clones and the others seem to be be sprouting good just on leaf will look droopy and tips start to curl downwards then that leathery look...but only after they get big the new leaves are good until the next set pops out..let me know how you solve this problem ive been fighting it for bout 2 weeks...hope to fix it soon...better early than later..

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McDanger and tdoe805er:
I did flush with water adjusted down with white vinegar to about 5.5. That did help the pH because now I am watering with Pro Grow which is pulling my water down to about 6 and the runoff is dropping, last time it was at 6.5. I have also transplanted into a 3 gallon pot with regular MG and added more light. I just wrote the following "The plant is still growing but the leaves haven't improved much if any" then went to look at them and take photos. Judge for yourself (Photo 1 was taken on 6/7, #2 on 6/12, #3, #4, #5 on 6/12 and show the "babies which are now 5" tall). It is way better in less than one week.

I am thinking back and the problem may have been that I used MG Organic for this plant, and regular MG for the other two. The other two are small but the leaves look fine, and their pH runoff was never high, so the difference was probably the MG organic. I still can't tell if this is male or female so will keep on until I know. I also compromised with the lighting and went to 22/2 on 6/7 to give it a little break.

So I would say as everyone here suspected, it was a pH problem that I have gotten under control. The bigger pot and more light certainly might helped, and perhaps the 22/2 might have helped but first and foremost I think it was the pH, and the MG Organic was the culprit.

how much white vinagor do i use per gallon...im having little trouble dropping the ph.. its reading 7.8-8.0 and run off is 7.6 way too high..

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Originally Posted by tdoe805er

how much white vinagor do i use per gallon...im having little trouble dropping the ph.. its reading 7.8-8.0 and run off is 7.6 way too high..

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For 1 gallon of tap water I start at 7.82 pH, add 2 teaspoons (tsp) of white vinegar and the pH drops to 5.77, so we get a 2 point drop using 2 tsp per gallon. I am really seeing an improvement and assume that the pH is a big part of it.

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Originally Posted by nevergetsold

McDanger and tdoe805er:
I did flush with water adjusted down with white vinegar to about 5.5. That did help the pH because now I am watering with Pro Grow which is pulling my water down to about 6 and the runoff is dropping, last time it was at 6.5. I have also transplanted into a 3 gallon pot with regular MG and added more light. I just wrote the following "The plant is still growing but the leaves haven't improved much if any" then went to look at them and take photos. Judge for yourself (Photo 1 was taken on 6/7, #2 on 6/12, #3, #4, #5 on 6/12 and show the "babies which are now 5" tall). It is way better in less than one week.

I am thinking back and the problem may have been that I used MG Organic for this plant, and regular MG for the other two. The other two are small but the leaves look fine, and their pH runoff was never high, so the difference was probably the MG organic. I still can't tell if this is male or female so will keep on until I know. I also compromised with the lighting and went to 22/2 on 6/7 to give it a little break.

So I would say as everyone here suspected, it was a pH problem that I have gotten under control. The bigger pot and more light certainly might helped, and perhaps the 22/2 might have helped but first and foremost I think it was the pH, and the MG Organic was the culprit.

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Sound good. I think mine was caused by adding composted manure to the soil mix. Otherwise the sta-green soil seems fine only adding 25% perlite.
Your damaged leaves will not get better, but new growth should not get the problem.;)

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Originally Posted by McDanger

Sound good. I think mine was caused by adding composted manure to the soil mix. Otherwise the sta-green soil seems fine only adding 25% perlite.
Your damaged leaves will not get better, but new growth should not get the problem.;)

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McDanger:
My oldest one is now suddenly growing at about an inch per day. I think it is a girl because I am seeing numerous single pointed growths coming out of the nodes but no fuzzy ones yet. Does the growth mean it is near ready to push it into flowering? It is 53 days old.

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Originally Posted by nevergetsold

McDanger:
My oldest one is now suddenly growing at about an inch per day. I think it is a girl because I am seeing numerous single pointed growths coming out of the nodes but no fuzzy ones yet. Does the growth mean it is near ready to push it into flowering? It is 53 days old.

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If you have alternating branches instead of pairs, the plant is ready anytime after that. It mostly depends how big you want it to get, it will double or triple in size when you switch to 12/12.

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Originally Posted by McDanger

If you have alternating branches instead of pairs, the plant is ready anytime after that. It mostly depends how big you want it to get, it will double or triple in size when you switch to 12/12.

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It definately has alternating pairs and has had for a few weeks. It is looking more like a female and I am thinking it would be smart to try some cloning. Should I just keep it in veg and take some clones? Another reason for my thinking is that the two smaller ones aren't yet showing alternate branching and at this point I only have one closet so if I go to flowering they all go.

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Originally Posted by nevergetsold

It definately has alternating pairs and has had for a few weeks. It is looking more like a female and I am thinking it would be smart to try some cloning. Should I just keep it in veg and take some clones? Another reason for my thinking is that the two smaller ones aren't yet showing alternate branching and at this point I only have one closet so if I go to flowering they all go.

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If you only have one room, what will you do with the clones when you go to flower?

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Originally Posted by McDanger

If you only have one room, what will you do with the clones when you go to flower?

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Very good question - I am waffling on that right now. The obvious answer is to .....build another room of course, or juse wait for everyone to get to flowering stage as the tallest one waits. Another problem that they are developing a the beautiful smell. I bought a vortex 4" and a charcoal filter. When I set up the vortex it can be heard in the rooms upstairs (I'm set up in the basement) so I am trying to figure out a quiet alternative before the odor is noticed. I put a speed control on it to slow it down but that makes a hum.

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Originally Posted by nevergetsold

Very good question - I am waffling on that right now. The obvious answer is to .....build another room of course, or juse wait for everyone to get to flowering stage as the tallest one waits. Another problem that they are developing a the beautiful smell. I bought a vortex 4" and a charcoal filter. When I set up the vortex it can be heard in the rooms upstairs (I'm set up in the basement) so I am trying to figure out a quiet alternative before the odor is noticed. I put a speed control on it to slow it down but that makes a hum.

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If you have it solidly mounted,(don't attach to the joists) you only need to hang it with a bunji cord or it will transfer the vibration and the noise. If you are talking wind noise there are others more experienced than me.

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Originally Posted by McDanger

If you have it solidly mounted,(don't attach to the joists) you only need to hang it with a bunji cord or it will transfer the vibration and the noise. If you are talking wind noise there are others more experienced than me.

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I used rubber grommets to try to isolate. I'll try the bungees next. Tks

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Originally Posted by nevergetsold

Very good question - I am waffling on that right now. The obvious answer is to .....build another room of course, or juse wait for everyone to get to flowering stage as the tallest one waits. Another problem that they are developing a the beautiful smell. I bought a vortex 4" and a charcoal filter. When I set up the vortex it can be heard in the rooms upstairs (I'm set up in the basement) so I am trying to figure out a quiet alternative before the odor is noticed. I put a speed control on it to slow it down but that makes a hum.

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I thought I would give an update. It's been 100 days since I started and I am fortunate to have two females that are 31 days into flowering. If you recall I originally had three plants growing and one was much taller and had a leathery look to the leaves. Adjusting the pH and getting a good nutrient program helped. It turned out that the tall one was, you guessed it, a male and after cloning it I got rid of it because the two little ones grew up to be beautiful females. Thanks to everyone's help it looks like I will have my first successful indoor harvest in a few more weeks. I noticed many things with this first grow and one of them is that I can treat multiple plants the same way (lighting, temp, humidity, feeding, etc.) and thay can all react differently. The two females never got that leathery look, however one of them has been very sensitive to feeding while the other one seems to be happy all the time. I have cloned those as well and really want to keep the happy one going with cloning. Attached are some current photos showing the two females next to each other. One photo clearly shows the brown leaves on the left one while the one on the right is happy. There are also shots of the female clones, then the male clones that I am keeping around for future seed experimentation.
Again, thanks to all of you who have guided me. This is a great site.

Here are the other photos:

i have 12 white widow and 4 medusa growing right now in mg potting soil the trick to this soil is to sift it before you use it because there are time releasing nutes that will throw of your ph and will cause your plant to have a nute lock up that causes the leaves to curl up and eventually die off. after your sift the soil you wont have to add nutes till about the second week of vegitation, keep in mind your waters ph balance as well feed your plants water only 3 times a week and plant food pending on the type you use 1 to 2 times a week doing this shall help you in growing large and beautiful plants.
pictures of my garden will soon be up i hope what i have said helps you.
peace and enjoy

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Originally Posted by jonnychimpo

i have 12 white widow and 4 medusa growing right now in mg potting soil the trick to this soil is to sift it before you use it because there are time releasing nutes that will throw of your ph and will cause your plant to have a nute lock up that causes the leaves to curl up and eventually die off. after your sift the soil you wont have to add nutes till about the second week of vegitation, keep in mind your waters ph balance as well feed your plants water only 3 times a week and plant food pending on the type you use 1 to 2 times a week doing this shall help you in growing large and beautiful plants.
pictures of my garden will soon be up i hope what i have said helps you.
peace and enjoy

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jonnychimpo:
Thanks for that info. I will try it on the next batch. When you sift it what are you looking to remove? What does it look like? What size openings in the screen.
Appreciate it.