From Joining the Military Thread: A Wide Discussion on American Military

coelho maybe you should sit this one out. this guy wants our opinions about joining the military, not your opinion on America fighting wars. we can debate that somewhere else....

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Originally Posted by higher4hockey

coelho maybe you should sit this one out. this guy wants our opinions about joining the military, not your opinion on America fighting wars. we can debate that somewhere else....

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I agree... in fact, i didnt even wished to start an ideological debate... besides my statement on being pacifist, i only meant to remind him of the dangers of going to war, that are real dangers no matter what be ones ideological view...
But handshake spent some of his time replying me, so i thought i owed him a response.

thanks for the response coelho. i agree with about the propaganda and the government taking our rights away here in america. but it is our job as americans to police our government. this is something that is not happening because people are zombies. it says in our decleration of independence:

"But, when a long train of abuses and usurpations,
pursuing invariably the same object,
evinces a design to reduce them under absolute despotism,
it is their right, it is their duty,
to throw off such government, and
to provide new guards for their future security."

so it is our duties as americans to throw off this government and put a new one in place. it will happen, it's only a matter of time.

that's something else though i suppose.

i can give reasons as to why america went to war, but it really doesn't matter.

i respect your opinion and i feel you do the same for mine (maybe?) and that's really all that matters.


-shake

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Originally Posted by JohnnyZ

I don't mean pulling the trigger, anyone would do that in a war situation. I mean are you capable of dealing with the fact that you just killed someone, are you willing to deal with the post traumatic stress or whatever the psychologists call it now. You just killed someone. Snuffed out a life. Sounds fine now but I bet things change when you see someone with their head blown off.

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In war you either shoot or get shot!
First come first served!

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Originally Posted by Gatekeeper777

In war you either shoot or get shot!
First come first served!

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i went to war, i didnt get shot. i didnt shoot anyone. :wtf:

It seems that there is no "on the fence" for this argument.. everyone has either been in the military or is adamantly opposed to the thought of war.

Strange.

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Originally Posted by JohnnyZ

It seems that there is no "on the fence" for this argument.. everyone has either been in the military or is adamantly opposed to the thought of war.

Strange.

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I think you're right ... it boils down to 'cowards, and the brave people that are responsible for protecting the cowards' ... :smokin:

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Originally Posted by the image reaper

I think you're right ... it boils down to 'cowards, and the brave people that are responsible for protecting the cowards' ... :smokin:

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Absolutely correct.

thanks, Steve :thumbsup: ... I know my opinion sounded extreme, and harsh, to some folks, but it's true ... every country, every society, every home, HAS to be protected, and defended ... there are evil people in this world, that WILL kill you and your family ... this means there are only 2 kinds of citizens ... the 'protected', and the 'protectors' ... if you're physically capable of 'protecting', but you 'won't', it's cowardly ... it means someone else, took your place in the gunsights ... simple logic ... :smokin:

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Originally Posted by the image reaper

I think you're right ... it boils down to 'cowards, and the brave people that are responsible for protecting the cowards' ... :smokin:

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I think this would ring true if the military was about protecting, and not carrying out the will of a war monger.

agreed, Back when the bankers where supporting hitler(arms of krump) we were under a serious threat and it might of meant something to protect our country. But after ww2 our country gobbeled up the nazi scientists and politicans and looked what happened. We are in more countries in the world than anybody. Im not only saying the nazis corrupted us either, The bankers did PERIOD. We are now the globalists and the conquers, we are now the new Nazi's. If you still think our country is run with the idea of freedom and liberty your very misguided. These bankers the rothe childs and builurburger goups funded both sides of almost every war there was. The whole idea of our country being started was to get away from the tyranny and corruption of england. Now look at us. Congress has power to print our own us money that could be intrest free. but nope our countrys doomed to slavery and was set into self destruction at the siging of the federal reserve act.

"I am a most unhappy man. I have unwittingly ruined my country. A great industrial nation is controlled by its system of credit. Our system of credit is concentrated. The growth of the nation, therefore, and all our activities are in the hands of a few men. We have come to be one of the worst ruled, one of the most completely controlled and dominated Governments in the civilized world no longer a Government by free opinion, no longer a Government by conviction and the vote of the majority, but a Government by the opinion and duress of a small group of dominant men." -PRESIDENT Woodrow Wilson-after signing the Federal Reserve into existence


PRESIDENT WOODROW WILSON.

PRESIDENT WOODROW WILSON

Federal reserve is a PRIVATE bank.

THAts right our PRESIDENT SAID THAT.
SAID THAT WE WOULD BE HEADED FOR DISASTER INEVITALY.

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Originally Posted by higher4hockey

i guess i led with my aces....all these sailor jokes, and i got nothing.


i will say this though, all joking aside. when i was in iraq, i got a coin from a one star general, he told me: we couldn't have done it without you [meaning Seabees] .

anyways...lets see here, what other marine/army jokes do i have...hmm.......like i said. i got nothing. shit. well i guess i can talk a little smack on the Army.

what does Army stand for ?
Aint Really Marine qualitY.

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or

Aren't Ready to be Marines Yet!


-shake

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Originally Posted by the image reaper

thanks, Steve :thumbsup: ... I know my opinion sounded extreme, and harsh, to some folks, but it's true ... every country, every society, every home, HAS to be protected, and defended ... there are evil people in this world, that WILL kill you and your family ... this means there are only 2 kinds of citizens ... the 'protected', and the 'protectors' ... if you're physically capable of 'protecting', but you 'won't', it's cowardly ... it means someone else, took your place in the gunsights ... simple logic ... :smokin:

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Well... if wars were fought ONLY to protect people and families... the world would be a FAR better place...

But, unfortunately, most wars are about political and economical interests of a bunch of the greatest cowards there are... cowards smart enough to disguise their real interests with big words like "freedom", "america", etc, and convince their heroic citizens to fight and die for their own private interests...

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Originally Posted by Coelho

Well... if wars were fought ONLY to protect people and families... the world would be a FAR better place...

But, unfortunately, most wars are about political and economical interests of a bunch of the greatest cowards there are... cowards smart enough to disguise their real interests with big words like "freedom", "america", etc, and convince their heroic citizens to fight and die for their own private interests...

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Game. Set. Match.

If you have no capacity for violence then you are a healthy productive citizen, a sheep. If you have a capacity for violence and no empathy for your fellow citizens, then you have defined an aggressive sociopath, a wolf. But what if you have a capacity for violence, and a deep love for your fellow citizens? What do you have then? A sheepdog, a warrior, someone who is walking the hero's path. Someone who can walk into the heart of darkness, into the universal human phobia, and walk out unscathed

Let me expand on this old soldier's excellent model of the sheep, wolves, and sheepdogs. We know that the sheep live in denial, that is what makes them sheep. They do not want to believe that there is evil in the world.



an excerpt from on sheep, wolves, and sheepdogs

i know where i stand.

I don't it's cowardly to not participate in military activity. I personally don't believe it is within my moral boundaries to learn to aim weapons at human beings. Ever since I was three I can remember my dad ALWAYS telling me when I had a toy gun, "NEVER, EVER EVER point that at a PERSON or I will break it and never buy you another one."

And he was right, I pointed a toy gun at someone in my family, and sure enough he broke it in two and handed it back to me. He did end up buying another one, but not until Christmas which was many months later. I understood what he meant, that we are not within our moral boundaries when we threaten the lives of others.

I know that there are evil people who will kill us, at least that's what I've been told. I'm 29 and I realize that's not an exceptional amount of time to have lived but so far I have done lots of traveling, seen some rough ghettos, and have never had my life endangered by another person. I attribute this to the fact that I have never and will never do anything to threaten anyone else, and people sense that when they meet me.

I object to being called a coward, and I think that our enemies have a similar set of beliefs about our willingness to kill them and their families. I think they also are told that if they won't fight for their country/creed/culture that they are cowards.

And how about Sergeant York? He was by no means a coward. He put his life in danger with all the rest. Some pacifists are cowards, and some soldiers are murderers, but all pacifists are not sheep, and all soldiers are not wolves.

Why do the people advising this guy to join the service frame it as a moral issue, that it's good to serve, and wrong or cowardly not to? We all have reasons for the choices we make, and those reasons may not be known by others.

I would never make a claim that those who have served in our forces did so because they are bloodthirsty and like to burn down the huts of innocent villagers. That would be ludicrous, wouldn't it? So why am I hearing the reverse claim from the other side?

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Originally Posted by higher4hockey

If you have no capacity for violence then you are a healthy productive citizen, a sheep. If you have a capacity for violence and no empathy for your fellow citizens, then you have defined an aggressive sociopath, a wolf. But what if you have a capacity for violence, and a deep love for your fellow citizens? What do you have then? A sheepdog, a warrior, someone who is walking the hero's path. Someone who can walk into the heart of darkness, into the universal human phobia, and walk out unscathed

Let me expand on this old soldier's excellent model of the sheep, wolves, and sheepdogs. We know that the sheep live in denial, that is what makes them sheep. They do not want to believe that there is evil in the world.



an excerpt from on sheep, wolves, and sheepdogs

i know where i stand.

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that is an outstanding explanation, and I commend you :thumbsup:

[quote=JD1stTimer]I don't it's cowardly to not participate in military activity. I personally don't believe it is within my moral boundaries to learn to aim weapons at human beings. Ever since I was three I can remember my dad ALWAYS telling me when I had a toy gun, "NEVER, EVER EVER point that at a PERSON or I will break it and never buy you another one."

And he was right, I pointed a toy gun at someone in my family, and sure enough he broke it in two and handed it back to me. He did end up buying another one, but not until Christmas which was many months later. I understood what he meant, that we are not within our moral boundaries when we threaten the lives of others.

that's funny, the marine corps teaches you the same thing! these are the 4 weapons rules that are directly from the marine corps rifle marksmanship manual

Rule 1
â??
Treat every weapon as if it were loaded.

Rule 2
â??
Never point a weapon at anything you do not intend to shoot.

Rule 3
â??
Keep your finger straight and off the trigger until you are ready to fire.

Rule 4
â??
Keep the weapon on safe until you intend to fire.


-shake

Yknow I think everyone, even driven people come to some point where they realized some or alot of the things they thought they were going to do are not for them. Its often uncomfortable to plod along without a goal and often when you get fed up with this state one decides its time to make a decisive action.

Dont join the military out of a knee jerk need for purpose

Im not vehemently against the military, but id just like to point out that you could do alot and your circumstances could change alot in the five plus years of your life that will become Uncle Sams the moment you sign that paper

So do any of you military guys care to address the fact that war mongering is not protecting anything? That is the question at hand now, we aren't concerned about how to shoot a gun.

Look.. If North Korea started fucking shit up tomorrow and invaded Canada (for whatever reason.. practice probably), I'd be the first one to enlist. I believe in freedom. I believe in protecting my freedom. I do not believe in forcing freedom upon others.

And back to the initial question here.. dude, the military is not the only other choice if you hate college. Get a job with a construction company. That's what I do. I love working construction. Maybe look into some labour jobs before you enlist.

Ok, if the subject is animals... how are called the sheepdogs that, unsatisfied of eating their own ration, start to hunt, kill and eat sheeps from other flocks?

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Originally Posted by JohnnyZ

Look.. If North Korea started fucking shit up tomorrow and invaded Canada (for whatever reason.. practice probably), I'd be the first one to enlist. I believe in freedom. I believe in protecting my freedom. I do not believe in forcing freedom upon others.

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1. sorry, you can't wait to join up, AFTER they invade, that's not called 'defending freedom' :wtf:
2. it is impossible to FORCE freedom on someone :wtf: (think about that a minute, you'll see how senseless your comment is) :D

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Originally Posted by JohnnyZ

So do any of you military guys care to address the fact that war mongering is not protecting anything? That is the question at hand now, we aren't concerned about how to shoot a gun.

Look.. If North Korea started fucking shit up tomorrow and invaded Canada (for whatever reason.. practice probably), I'd be the first one to enlist. I believe in freedom. I believe in protecting my freedom. I do not believe in forcing freedom upon others.

And back to the initial question here.. dude, the military is not the only other choice if you hate college. Get a job with a construction company. That's what I do. I love working construction. Maybe look into some labour jobs before you enlist.

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warmongering is something politicians do! the military are merely the ones that do the bidding. we don't decide what wars are started, that takes an act of congress. public opinion decides "right from wrong".

we are the best military in the world because we train to be. that's what the military is, training. training so when you go to war you do your job and you do it well so you don't go home in a black plastic bag. so just because we do our job with efficiency as trained to do, doesn't make us bad guys.

not everything the military does is right, or wrong. war is some nasty sh!t. bad things happen. sometimes in war there are preemptive attacks. that's the way it's been for thousands of years. some will agree, some won't and some will change their minds.

it's not for everyone. do politicians use it for personal gain? of course. but that's a different subject. that needs to change on a different level. that's something completely different from the military.

i agree with image about the defending freedom comment.

whether they had weapons of mass destruction in iraq or not, it was the iraqi people that toppled the statues of saddam. we defend the freedoms of others as well. do we do it for our own best interests? almost always i'm sure. that's another debate too.

i'm not knocking your opinion. i appreciate it.

some mess is gonna go down with north korea. will they attack canada? only if they aim for new york and their math is off. lol. so i think you are safe from joining.....for now.

my previous post about the rifle marksmanship was in response to JD's post about not pointing a gun at anyone.


-shake

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Originally Posted by Coelho

Ok, if the subject is animals... how are called the sheepdogs that, unsatisfied of eating their own ration, start to hunt, kill and eat sheeps from other flocks?

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No they are other citizens who help the hurd by being responcible gun owners and patriots. They are the kinda average joe hero thats saves peoples lives when some nut job cuts loose in a mc d's or robs a bank/ breaks into your home. Its funny how the anti gunners always think the police will snap and appear when the shit hits the fan b4 its to late. Dogs dont eat sheep they eat dog food.

I think thomas jefferson had it right, He thought every citizen shoulda be a soilder like the greeks. If some one was going to kill me I wouldnt think twice about it. Nor would I care afterwards. I think everybody should be used to blood and guts. Nobody like it cept psycos but seriously, If you come apon a car accident and people are spread like mayo all over the place how are you going to react to help when your mentally unprepaired to deal with it. Are you just going to stand there in the crowd? you got the internet go look up some gory war footage or something to get you used to it. People live in to much of a false sence of security. What if your family member gets hurt and seconds count? is all that gushing blood going to paralyze you? You never no it can happen.

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Originally Posted by the image reaper

1. sorry, you can't wait to join up, AFTER they invade, that's not called 'defending freedom' :wtf:
2. it is impossible to FORCE freedom on someone :wtf: (think about that a minute, you'll see how senseless your comment is) :D

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1. There is nothing to defend right now because no one has invaded Canada. I don't even know what you're getting at here.. people can't join up after a war has started? I got shit to do I don't wanna be in the military all the time, just if I'm needed to save my country.

2. I don't know what you're getting at here either.. Team America tried to force the western way of life on the middle east and so far they haven't taken a liking to it so I'd say forcing freedom is a bad call.

Johnny Z, as a Canadian, you are my friend and neighbor, and God bless Canada ! ... that said, I would like to point out, Canada will NOT likely be attacked by anyone, because the USA has your back :thumbsup: ... if not for us despised and hated Americans, you Canadians would be speaking Russian, many years before now ... facts are facts ... you have the right to your opinions, too :thumbsup: (by no small coincidence, also guaranteed, and protected, by America, and her military might) ... we sometimes get it right, you know :s4:

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Originally Posted by JohnnyZ

2. I don't know what you're getting at here either.. Team America tried to force the western way of life on the middle east and so far they haven't taken a liking to it so I'd say forcing freedom is a bad call.

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you know this because you've been there, or because the news tells you that?

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Originally Posted by higher4hockey

you know this because you've been there, or because the news tells you that?

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straighten him out, H4H ... Game.Set.Match :D ...

Globalization.

Oh I thought the troops were still in the middle east.. my bad. I forgot we were welcomed with open arms and sent on our way with leftovers for tomorrow's lunch.

like i said before...if you havent been there , then you really don't know.

What's so great about western society anyways that we need to share it with second and third world countries? It's not like we have a real democracy anyways, it's just called that. We have our own shitstorm of problems too. Granted we don't get mustard gassed by Mexico but that's an extreme case.

go to iraq, and you will know what is so great about western society. trust me, it is indeed great.

id say no its not worth it unless u really want a challenge i am in the army and am in the infantry u have to do alot dumb stuff and u think some of the stuff is retarded but u gota learn to adapt am cool am here am chillin and yes i do smoke army is almost like normal college life to me once u get used to it:hippy:

im pretty good at detecting bullshit, infact my 'bullshit detection meter' is in the red right now.


:D

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Originally Posted by higher4hockey

go to iraq, and you will know what is so great about western society. trust me, it is indeed great.

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Ok... could you tell us how it is there, and what led you to conclude that the west is actually better?
Also... does the people who lives there think the same way you do think about the west being better than there?

This is simple, if YOU want to serve then join, but be prepared you might not even be allowed to join after meps. This is a personal decision you need to make on your own. I have wanted to serve almost all my life but couldn't due to waiver bullshit. Actually its understandable I have a personality disorder and its well documented, so I'm up shit creek.

but Good Luck and if you do serve Thank You.

abd to all the other Armed Services members Thank You and Be Safe:thumbsup:

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The whole "you can't know unless you've done it" argument doesn't really sit with me. It sounds to me like nothing more than a way to silence opposition...if one is informed to a great enough degree, they are entitled to a legitimate opinion that deserves more of a rebuttal than "if you don't know, don't say anything." I say the armed forces are soul-crushing because I cannot conceive how individuality can be maintained with a shaved head and a uniform, killing people their county's tycoons find troublesome.

If you really take anything the army does seriously and see it as anything more than a futile and vainglorious absurdity (involving proud kids who played with too many G.I. Joes), you need a serious lesson in detecting horseshit.

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so you think you know what its like to serve? what its like to go to war? what its like to loose a freind in combat? what its like to be off some place in the world getting shot at while a bunch of little pansy assed mamas boys sit back home whining about how futile and vaingloriously absurd our military is? the truth is you dont and never will till youve been there. ever seen to people together who were both in the armed forces could have servered at 2 differant times or in 2 differant wars but they have a common bond, a mutual respect for the other. its a bond of brothers.

and no you cannot be a individual in the military. but it is definatly not soul crushing. what you do you like to think that your doing for the good of you country and your people. i may not agree with the politics of my goverment but i still love my country and the people of my country enough to serve my time in the military, and if need be i will die defending them. thats called patriotism and its quite soul inspiring. one thing the military definatly does for you is it teaches you to grow up.

this all goes back to one other thing that i mentioned a long time ago. this attitude of what has my country done for me. have we forgotten the immortal words of john " ask not what your country can do for you but what you can do for your country"?

my apologys if this is takin as a flame. but i get quit pissed of when people put down our troops. these kids are puttin everything they have on the line sacrificing the best years of their life. just to get to come home and be shit on not by their own people but by their gov't. there should never for any reason be a homeless vet in this country. but that a differant subject. the military is a great institution our soldiers, sailors, marines, and flyboys are some of the best people around. its our corupt goverment in control of where they do their jobs at is what is at fault. there are no bad dogs just bad owners.

there is none who prays for peace more than the soldier.

oh and i never owned a g.i. joe

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Originally Posted by headshake

warmongering is something politicians do! the military are merely the ones that do the bidding. we don't decide what wars are started, that takes an act of congress. public opinion decides "right from wrong".

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When was the last war declared by Congress? Not Iraq. Not Afghanistan. Not Vietnam, and not Korea. What was that you were saying again?

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we are the best military in the world because we train to be. that's what the military is, training. training so when you go to war you do your job and you do it well so you don't go home in a black plastic bag. so just because we do our job with efficiency as trained to do, doesn't make us bad guys.

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If we are the best military why have we lost our last 3 "wars", and getting ready to lose a fourth?

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not everything the military does is right, or wrong. war is some nasty sh!t. bad things happen. sometimes in war there are preemptive attacks. that's the way it's been for thousands of years. some will agree, some won't and some will change their minds.

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I'm afraid you are incorrect. Everything anyone does is either "right", or "wrong". It's just a matter of perspective as to which.

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whether they had weapons of mass destruction in iraq or not, it was the iraqi people that toppled the statues of saddam. we defend the freedoms of others as well. do we do it for our own best interests? almost always i'm sure. that's another debate too.

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Wrong again. That little show was a setup. Was that an Iraqi tank involved?

JG

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Originally Posted by JohnGault

When was the last war declared by Congress? Not Iraq. Not Afghanistan. Not Vietnam, and not Korea. What was that you were saying again?

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i can't help it that the politicians decide to manipulate the constitution to fit their will. the military simply does as it's told. you question your directives after the fact. if you question during, you could die.

also iraq and afghanistan are military engagements (not formal war, correct) both (or all three if you count iraq twice) all approved by congress. who do you think votes on bills that decide how much is spent?

also, vietnam was a military engagement approved by congress. the korean war was authorized by the United Nations Security Council.

here are are list of the bills and when they were signed-

first gulf war (which is also technically a military engagement, not a war):

H.R.J. Res. 77
January 12, 1991

afghanistan:
S.J. Res. 23
September 14, 2001

iraq (the second time)
H.J. Res. 114,
October 16, 2002

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Originally Posted by JohnGault

If we are the best military why have we lost our last 3 "wars", and getting ready to lose a fourth?

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please elaborate as to which wars we've lost? are you speaking german, vietnamese, korean or any other language? didn't think so. if our military isn't the best in the world, then who's is? how many other countries have you been to? how many military exercises have you been involved in? how many people do you know who've died in war (or a military engagement)?

[quote=JohnGault]I'm afraid you are incorrect. Everything anyone does is either "right", or "wrong". It's just a matter of perspective as to which.]/QUOTE]

how are you going to tell me i'm wrong and then tell me it's a matter of perspective. that means the subject is subjective, or a matter of personal opinion or belief. therefore, one can't be right or wrong.

a law is merely a matter of opinion that the (sometimes) the majority agrees with. does that make it right?! FUCK NO! i love the contradiction that you bring to your arguments.

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Originally Posted by JohnGault

Wrong again. That little show was a setup. Was that an Iraqi tank involved?

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i can't even begin to understand what you mean here. if you have a certain video that you are talking about then please share. but the military was given orders to NOT do those things. they could give iraqis ropes and stuff, but could not be involved directly. i'm not saying that it possibly didn't happen, but that doesn't mean that the group that acted had consent from or spoke for the united states government or it's people.......i mean, what about the soldiers killing people for no reason. do those people speak for you? didn't think so.

and it's because of our military that you have the ability to sit behind a keyboard and post your OPINION!

so next time you want to tell someone that they are wrong perhaps your should check your facts!

also, the president can make ware for 180 days without congressional approval.


by the way, welcome to the boards.


-shake