HID & LED

Iâ??m in the planning stages of a DWC. It looks like itâ??s going to be 6 buckets. The grow room is 5 feet wide by 2 ½ feet deep.
Iâ??m contemplating a 250W HID in the center with 1 GrowPanel 45 at each end. Hereâ??s a link for the LEDâ??s led grow lights -Sunshine Systems : The GlowPanel 45 LED Grow Light
I need some heat as I live at altitude and the winters get quite cold and Iâ??m not really interested in supplying supplemental heat just for itâ??s sake alone. And the summers get above 90 degrees from time to time, so too much heat isn't so good either.
If the LEDâ??s perform anywhere close to as advertised there should be lots of light that can get pretty close.
And opinions as to how the LEDâ??s might perform during veg is also of interest.
Oldmac has just posted a grow using both combined Iâ??ll definitely want his opinion as well as all opinions as to the viability.
:(

Hello Horsemanrocks,

First I looked at your link, I have not seen those panels so it is hard to say much about them. With panels like that, obviously man in China, I would like to know some more specs on the diodes they are using. As to thier claims of equal to 250w hps from 45w, I doubt it. Same goes for claims that UFO's at 90 watts equal 600hps. That is why so many say bad things about LEDs.

You have a rather narrow and long area to deal with, you need to come up with something to get and even distribution of light.

Remember that LEDs don't have the light penetration of HPS, thier effective light drops off faster as distance increase. Sorta why I'm trying to hybred them to T5s, they don't penetrate far either. Sounds strange I know, but really perfect to grow single cola style plants.

Let's see if anybody else has some ideas (HEY WEEZARD), I need to sleep on it.

oldmac Iâ??m quite happy to get your inputâ?¦WeeZard too if heâ??s interested.
The reason to question the viability is that the 45watt LED equaling the 250W HID seemed a little bit much for me to believe too. 5 feet wide by 2 ½â?? deep is 12 ½ sq feet. A 250W HID in the center with a questionable 250W LED at each end would be a theoretical 750W overall divided by 12.5 sq feet = 60W per sq foot. But then what would it be really, something less I imagine.
The whole thing could be resolved with (2) 250W HIDâ??s side x side, but Iâ??d like the heat and energy savings by combining the twoâ?¦.(HID & LED). After seeing the pictures that you posted of using the two in the same grow I thought that you might have a better idea of what Iâ??d really end up with.
As far as lack of penetrationâ?¦I figured to SCROG it so that penetration wouldnâ??t be so much of an issue. And the Jorge Cervantes book leads me to think that the lowered heat values would allow for getting the light closer to the tops.

Yo Horseman,

One of the biggest problems with LEDs is the exaggerated claims made by many who are only looking to make money, and don't really care about what they make.

SCROG is a great indoor growing technique, lots of colas packed in to give a good continous canopy. Plus fewer plants total, which could be a good thing in some legal situations.

Now to your situation;
I like the combination of HPS and LEDs, they should compliment each other well. My first choice would be to combine your 250w HPS with a Procyon 100. I would bolt them close together and mount them on a light rail. This will spread out your light to cover the 5' length easily, plus it spreads the heat of the 250hps around some. Light penertration is so much better since the "angle of attack" of the light to the plant changes constantly, allowing light to hit ares that normally would be shaded with a fixed light. (it's also fun to watch!)
Intial price of the Procyon is higher then some lights (china made) but you're getting proven excellent LEDs (Cree Xlamps).

A less expensive deal would be cheap knockoffs...........
speaking of cheap knockoffs, I'll see if Weezard has 2 cents to spend here.

Yeah, if I want to stay legal Iâ??m limited to 6 (mature) plants.

I guess that what attracted me to my proposed idea was that the two LEDâ??s @ $140 ea would only amount to $280. The Procyon 100 is listed @ $599.

I probably could look further, but even the 4â?? light mover from Hydrofarm demands a 1â?? clearance on either end netting a 6â?? overall spaceâ?¦mine is 5 feet. Iâ??m beginning to imagine that shorter light movers arenâ??t around because who wants to move light such a small distance. Iâ??m thinking that a spread of fixed lighting may be my only solution.

Procyon 50â??s are listed @ $199 ea. With the 250W HID in the center flanked by a pair of Procyon 50â??s. The sad thing is that they each draw 4.2 amps. That doesnâ??t sound like what Iâ??m trying to accomplish.

The Cervantes book gives me the idea that a 250W Hid would cover a spread of 3â?? x 3â??. If it was closer yet it would only need to cover 2 ½â?? x 2 ½â?? ( the depth of the flower room) that leaves a 2 ½â?? spread (width) to be covered by the 2 LED panels. Thatâ??s 15â?� X 30â?� for ea LED (theyâ??re more directional, so that may be tough to do) I guess that Iâ??d hoped that even the GrowPanel 45 might pull that off.

Iâ??m fully aware that Iâ??m a cheap bastardâ?¦.and to compound that Iâ??m also a do it right the first time kind of guy. On top of everything the idea of dumping excess heat is hard for me to swallow. The American way is to want quality, want it cheap, and to have it right now. Woe is me, woe is me!

I thank you again for taking the time to help me think this through.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Horsemanrocks

...
Procyon 50â??s are listed @ $199 ea. With the 250W HID in the center flanked by a pair of Procyon 50â??s. The sad thing is that they each draw 4.2 amps. That doesnâ??t sound like what Iâ??m trying to accomplish.

The Cervantes book gives me the idea that a 250W Hid would cover a spread of 3â?? x 3â??. If it was closer yet it would only need to cover 2 ½â?? x 2 ½â?? ( the depth of the flower room) that leaves a 2 ½â?? spread (width) to be covered by the 2 LED panels. Thatâ??s 15â?� X 30â?� for ea LED (theyâ??re more directional, so that may be tough to do) I guess that Iâ??d hoped that even the GrowPanel 45 might pull that off.

Iâ??m fully aware that Iâ??m a cheap bastardâ?¦.and to compound that Iâ??m also a do it right the first time kind of guy. On top of everything the idea of dumping excess heat is hard for me to swallow. The American way is to want quality, want it cheap, and to have it right now. Woe is me, woe is me!

I thank you again for taking the time to help me think this through.

---

<Poof>
Someone holler for a tiny gecko's opinion up in here?

Aloha from another cheap bastard HMR.:D
I'm un-impressed by the growpanels, and with that website.
It's all hyperbole heaven over dere.

Here's a couple pennies.
I think you will do much better with a UFO or so.
They are all over e-bay. 'cause there a chinese company making them to order.
They offer samples for $135.
So, there are some decent ones to be had for about $200 USD.

Addem to a 250W HPS and ya got synergy.
The HPS will provide a little slow fading far red in the evening which, (I think), is all that Leds lack.
That said, be careful. there are some pretty dodgy folks on da bay sellin' "UFO-like" excrement.
Ask them about actual current draw.
You want to hear over 750ma.
They evade, you bail.

Gotta run, but a I have a few more opinions if you are interested.

Aloha,
Wee Zard

Horseman, the HGL site hasn't been updated in months. If you attempt to order any products directly through that site, you will see either an "out of stock" or "discontinued" notice. Been like that since before I started building my own light. I know this because I was gonna build a couple of 50 watt kits myself, so I started watching to see when I could order. (This was, again, months ago.) Finally got tired of waiting and built from scratch.

Of course I want your opinion/opinionsâ?¦â?¦all of them. Iâ??m not out here asking because I already know the answers. Iâ??ll also take opinions as to a more optimal setup if thatâ??s what you have in mindâ?¦.Iâ??m only dealing with what I could imagine.

Iâ??m not exactly sure why a watt +/- per led is important, but after reading some of your posts in the past, Iâ??m satisfied that I wouldnâ??t exactly understand the explanation. Maybe I never was that goodâ?¦..but my electronics training was when I was a muuccch younger man. But then almost everything (that I can remember) was when I was a much younger man. No need to explainâ?¦.Iâ??ll simply take your word.

With a 90W LED on either endâ?¦.it looks like â??my futureâ??s so bright, I gotta wear shadesâ?� Timbuk3

Lots of options on ebay, thereâ??s even one with the red, blue, and warm white Whoa
It looks like a number of them advertise 1W per. Theyâ??re running about $185. Although I do see the value over paying $140 on something useless. Damn that oldmac for making me pay for quality
I will even take a particular sellers name (ebay) if youâ??re willing to assist in the qualifing.

With 90W of current draw, is the heat comparable. Iâ??d always imagined that it was considerably lessâ?¦.but those cooling vents on the top of the UFO look pretty serious! My electronics background reminds that watts have to equal heat somehow. Si o No

Is there enough blue in a UFO to put up a respectable veg?

Aloha,
Haole Horseman

"I will even take a particular sellers name (ebay) if youâ??re willing to assist in the qualifing.

Might seem like pimpin'.
They frown on that around here.;)
But, I'll root about and see what I find.


With 90W of current draw, is the heat comparable. Iâ??d always imagined that it was considerably lessâ?¦.but those cooling vents on the top of the UFO look pretty serious! My electronics background reminds that watts have to equal heat somehow. Si o No

They look serious but they're just 3 small, cheap, muffin fans.
Leds don't radiate heat like incandescent lights or HPS/MH.
That's why we can have the lights right down on the canopy.
LEDs produce heat at the diode junction.
So we have to suck the heat out the back and dispose of it.


Is there enough blue in a UFO to put up a respectable veg?"

There is in the one I have.

[attachment=o218241]

I'm quite pleased with it and I have several homebrewed lights to compare it to. Of course vegging is easy, I've vegged under 14 Watts of R n B

Lemme get this disclaimer out of the way.
Notice:
This lizard is not an expert at anything but loafing.
I don't have "the one true way" . I'm just an old fart who has plenty of time to think about things and a budget that mothers my need to cobble together my own lights.


Got to thinking about HPS vs LED budwise, the other day.

Read some feller posit that what was missing from bi-color leds was that useless spike of yellow that sodium generates, so they started adding amber leds.:wtf::silly:


Hmm, I got a different take on it.
First.
400 Watts of LEDs will produce as much or more bud than 400 Watts of HPS.
Why bother, yah?
My goal is the same yeild with less than half the power consumed.

I don't think adding an amber or warm white emitter here and there will do very much good. (don't shoot, just my opinion)
The other difference from leds is how the lights turn on and off.
The HPS come up gradually, and when they fade to black, they radiate quite a bit of far red light.
Will adding far red at lights out produce fatter, tighter buds?
Ah dunno. But I have a small experiment going to find out.

Meanwhile we are testing some high output 660 nm. led arrays.
So far, I'm impressed.


(How 'bout your light DH?
Had enought time to compare it to your HPS grow yet?)


I used DWC for the last couple of mothers, but have started using coco for the bloomery now that I'll be SOGing many small clones instead of 2 or 3 beeg girls.
I don't have a lot of experience with either method but will offer help where I can.


I like your plan and will pull up a chair.:cool:

Weezard

Might seem like pimpin'.
They frown on that around here.
But, I'll root about and see what I find.
When I ask for your directionâ?¦..It ainâ??t pimpinâ??. Iâ??m just thinking that your experienced eye might not overlook something that Iâ??m totally unaware of. Besides thatâ?¦.a couple of old guys with â??growsâ?� have more important things to be concerned with.

They look serious but they're just 3 small, cheap, muffin fans.
Leds don't radiate heat like incandescent lights or HPS/MH.
That's why we can have the lights right down on the canopy.
LEDs produce heat at the diode junction.
So we have to suck the heat out the back and dispose of it
Ok, the heat is dissipated out the back and not towards the growâ?¦that part I like. But the heat is still created and still needs to be removed. (I never quitâ?¦.do I). Donâ??t get me wrongâ?¦You be daâ?? man. If the UFOâ??s are even close to equal to 600W Hidâ??s , then I donâ??t really need that much light. 600 X 2 + 250 1450 watts in 12 ½ sq ft. Thatâ??s only 116 watts per sq ft. You can see that I havenâ??t completely given up on smaller flanking Ledâ??s. If there was a quality Led in the 50W range (at a reasonable price) Iâ??d still be considering that option.
Can you have too much light?

Lemme get this disclaimer out of the way.
Notice:
This lizard is not an expert at anything but loafing.
I don't have "the one true way" . I'm just an old fart who has plenty of time to think about things and a budget that mothers my need to cobble together my own lights.
Are you beginning to think that I have too much time to think also ;)

Will adding far red at lights out produce fatter, tighter buds?
Ah dunno. But I have a small experiment going to find out.
Always interested in the results of a good experiment. I kinda feel that thatâ??s what Iâ??m doing now as the Hid/Led combo doesnâ??t look much like a popular experiment.

(How 'bout your light DH?
Had enought time to compare it to your HPS grow yet?)
DHâ?¦..huh?
Havenâ??t grown anything beyond garden vegetables yetâ?¦..and screwing around with all this minutia I probably never will. LOL

I like your plan and will pull up a chair.
Donâ??t sit on the edge of your seatâ?¦.I live rather rurally (kind of like living on the big island) and the accumulation process is oh so slow and painful. But then slow as I am, I am one persistent S.O.B.

Mahalo nui loa
Aloha
Haole Horseman

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DreadedHermie

Horseman, the HGL site hasn't been updated in months. If you attempt to order any products directly through that site, you will see either an "out of stock" or "discontinued" notice. Been like that since before I started building my own light. I know this because I was gonna build a couple of 50 watt kits myself, so I started watching to see when I could order. (This was, again, months ago.) Finally got tired of waiting and built from scratch.

---

Hermie,

Thanks for updating me on that, I knew Ryan was getting out of the 5mm business and concnetrating on the hi power Cree's. Did not realize the 50watters where not available yet.

NOTE: The amp draw given for the 50w is a typo, it probably should be .42!

Hey Horseman,

There's nothing wrong with being a cheap bastard, especially in this day and age. I myself have gotten very frugal, since I went broke. The only reason you see me playing with some expensive lights is I bought them when times where much better for me. In fact I had a couple of Porcyons up till a few months ago when a opportunity arose to sell them. Back to a 400w MH for my mom room, which the Procyons did for 1/2 the wattage.

Thought the UFOs might be less expensive. Looking at Ebay I noticed the same prices as Weez, plus with the HPS you don't need to worry about those "tri-bands" one which seem to cost more. Noticed also alot of them now are using 660 reds, and that's a good thing.

"(How 'bout your light DH?
Had enought time to compare it to your HPS grow yet?)
DHâ?¦..huh?"

Sorry, that was an aside to DH, (DreadedHermie).
He built an array of 6. 15 W. 660nm. and 2. 15W blue Ledengin emitters and replaced his HPS with it.
It's been in service longer than my new array has.

"But the heat is still created and still needs to be removed. (I never quitâ?¦.do I). Donâ??t get me wrongâ?¦You be daâ?? man.

Denied! I be da t90 'zard.
Bein' "da man" is too much like work.:D

If the UFOâ??s are even close to equal to 600W Hidâ??s , then I donâ??t really need that much light. 600 X 2 + 250 1450 watts in 12 ½ sq ft.

Apples n Oranges, brah.

Thatâ??s only 116 watts per sq ft. You can see that I havenâ??t completely given up on smaller flanking Ledâ??s. If there was a quality Led in the 50W range (at a reasonable price) Iâ??d still be considering that option.

You can DIY a 65W. light from off-the-shelf parts if you wish.
It is easier than it looks.

Can you have too much light?"

Yes!
Noon sun in Hawaii exceeds 91k lux.
At about 91k., (solar spectrum of cuss), photosynthesis stops and plants stop growing.
Kick it up a notch and leaves will "bleach" and reject/reflect all light.
From 2" away the 15W. emitters will give ya white polka-dots on yer top leaves

Now, I'll go rummage about on "da bay", for an honest UFO dealer.
Where'd I put that Diagones lamp? Aha! Here 'tis.

Be back wiki wiki, (with any luck).
Weeze.

Here's the folks that I ordered from.
http://cgi.ebay.com/New-90W-LED-UFO-Hydroponic-Lamp-Grow-Light-Free-Post_W0QQitemZ220355104480QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_De faultDomain_2?hash=item334e300ee0&_trksid=p3286.c0 .m14&_trkparms=72%3A1205%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C39%3 A1%7C240%3A1307%7C301%3A1%7C293%3A1%7C294%3A50
Call themselves tinybearshop.
Shipped fast and no shipping charges.
It's a decent copy of the original UFO.
625nm. red but it does veg very well.

Enjoy.
Weeze

Alright Iâ??m back
Damn, someone at the doorâ?¦..back in a flash.
��������
Whew, it was only the IRS claiming that I owed them lots of money. I was afraid it might have been the â??pimpinâ?? copsâ?�â?¦..You DONâ??T want the pimpinâ?? cops at your door. Donâ??t worry though WeeZard, I would never rat you out. Your secret is safe with me, but Iâ??m not so sure about oldmac and that dreaded Hermie guyâ?¦.keep a close eye on those two.:)

I very much appreciate you looking out for me. Iâ??ll go take a look!

Mahalo nui loa
Aloha
Haole Horseman

Gave me a chuckle dere, paniolo guy.:lol5:

Mahalo nui,
Wee Zard

Quote:

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NOTE: The amp draw given for the 50w is a typo, it probably should be .42!

---

But I think he meant it. I just looked at the specs closer, and this is just a populated 12V led harness with no power supply. Ryan was recommending a computer ATX to power the unit. Doesn't say whether any kind of current control is integral in this offering, or whether you have to figger that out fer yerself, or what. :wtf:

Anyway, if you power it with 4.2 amps at 12 volts, that comes out to 50.4W. Pretty sure that's what he meant.

I've got 4.7A powering 4 x 15W reds @ 10.6V. (calculates) = 49.82 watts. In the ball park, anyway....

But, again, it's a moot point. Ya can't get this item, and I would expect his next offering, if there is one, to use higher powered leds. And if it's a DIY kit, some kinda current control. If you hafta figure that out for yourself you don't need no stinkin' kit!

Quote:

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(How 'bout your light DH?
Had enought time to compare it to your HPS grow yet?)

---

Looks okay so far. My bagseed grow flourished with the speed of a stalagmite under HPS, so I can only expect the same from leds.

[attachment=o218313]

[attachment=o218314]

[attachment=o218315]

[attachment=o218316]

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DreadedHermie

Looks okay so far. My bagseed grow flourished with the speed of a stalagmite under HPS, so I can only expect the same from leds.

[attachment=o218313]

[attachment=o218314]

[attachment=o218315]

[attachment=o218316]

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Gorgeous!:greenthumb::greenthumb::greenthumb:

No amber leds, no UVb, no supermonsterbudliquidlightbatshitthrivearoonie?
Just a splash of blue light, a metric shitload of deep red and some attention, yah?

Gee golly whiz, Mr. science. Can I try this at home?:tin foil hat:
Can I , huh?:cool:

Impressive!
Weeze

Hermieâ?¦..my local dump has a separate section for electronics. Computer power supplies move through there all the time. I wouldnâ??t be surprised if it wouldnâ??t be possible to spirit some away or at worst pay a very small price for them. If youâ??re interested Iâ??ll look into it.:cool:

Hey Hermie,

Thanks for correcting me, again ( I really I'm confused easily) about the 50w mini-pro. When I read the 4.2 amps, I just put 50w against 120v (in my head) and got .42 amps, forgot that it was sans power supply or there's more then one way to get to 50watts.

Really nice pics! Looks like the making of something good.

Yeah Weez,

That's what I need to get also "a metric shitload of far red". (but knowing me I'd want to add some other spectrums)

Quote:

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No amber leds, no UVb, no supermonsterbudliquidlightbatshitthrivearoonie?
Just a splash of blue light, a metric shitload of deep red and some attention, yah?

---

What looks like a third fan on my lamp is a can of tuna. (It's ballast, moving it around fine-tunes the aim of the light.)

Amber, UV, IR, who needs it??

[attachment=o218338]

Yikes! Did a little preliminary smoke-test on the items depicted in post #18, resulting in the post above (which seemed to make sense at the time). :stoned:

This strain will meet my medical needs fine. This bud is far more potent than the bag it came from. Like by a factor of 10-20x stronger, subjectively. Wife and I were bouncing off the walls, :yippee::giggity::dance::rastabanna: and ate everything in the refrigerator. My little snack consisted of canned tuna, yogurt, grape nuts, beer, wine, and an omelette. And I'm pretty sure I broke whatever "rules" there may be regarding what kinda stuff can be used as omelette ingredients, too. :eat::glugglug: And, some poker chips seem to be missing. :wtf:


Point is, these plants were started under combination 400W HPS and a Procyon 100. When it started getting too hot I replaced the HPS with a home-brewed led light.

So Horseman, I think your plan is sound. My grow space is similar to yours, and a 400W HPS was just too much heat for that small a closet. A 250 should be just right to pound the plants at fairly close range.

If it's chilly and you can open the room up, the HPS will help heat your living area with a cheery glow. When it's warmer, you may have better results decommissioning the HPS in favor of all-LEDs. Depends on your ability to dispose of waste heat.

I also considered light movers, for my long, narrow space. Definitely worth consideration, but for the expense and installation hassle of a mover, I can build an extra light and get direct, full time coverage. If you can acquire a couple good UFO's to flank your 250, you'd be in good shape. Perhaps a third UFO or a Procyon to substitute for the HPS when weather demands it. You could also substitute CFL's or T-5's for the HPS, but even those approaches created too much heat for me in summer.

So as time passes I'm maturing girls that are closer and closer to "All led grown." And they're getting very potent, more so than I was able to do with the HPS, just because of the heat.

And Horseman, thanks for the kind thought, but I've got a backup power supply or two layin' around somewhere. No need to ship that stuff. It's more "green" to acquire electronics surplus locally. :thumbsup:

Looks like Tinybearshopsâ?? computer is downâ?¦..must beâ?¦as they have a problem with answering email. There is another seller with the same UFO with only 3 feedback, 2 of which were purchases, and one was from tinybearshop. Life is longâ?¦Iâ??ll work it out.

This whole thing is making me very paranoid. Every time a Ford Fiesta pulls up behind me I have to ditch emâ??. (Thatâ??s what the pimpinâ?? cops drive in SoCal) With all those radios and Helicopter gunship support and such it takes some hard driving to get clear. I had to drive until dark, ditch the truck and run the last 5 miles through seas of poison ivy and sticker bushes.

Tinybearshop did return an email so I bid on a ufo @ $175â?¦.could save $5 who knows. Found a 250W Lumatek advertised, electronic ballast, bulbs, & hood for $150 (he hasnâ??t returned my call yet)

Itâ??s beginning to warm up in SoCal and I canâ??t seem to get my grow room over 71 degrees. It draws fresh air from under the house (cooler in summer, warmer in winter) so Iâ??m beginning to feel like this Turkey is gonna fly.

Canâ??t easily get the humidity above 25% so a small humidifier is in the near future.

Yeah Hermie excess heat is the game. I have an 80 cfm fan in, and yesterday I put in a â??futureâ?� 4â?� vent so that itâ??ll be there if and when needed. Canâ??t really decide whether Iâ??ll end up needing a vented hood or notâ?¦..whatâ??s your opinion?

Iâ??m wondering what the effects would be if the Hid cycled on and off and left the Led,s on throughout the 12 hr cycle. A little heat managementâ?¦..but then who knows, Iâ??ll know more as things get going whether I have a heat problem or not.

Aloha,
Paniolo Guy

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DreadedHermie

What looks like a third fan on my lamp is a can of tuna. (It's ballast, moving it around fine-tunes the aim of the light.)

Amber, UV, IR, who needs it??

---

Marketing, that's who.
Whataya, tryin' ta do hoit de ecomony?!

Now you've done it lad!

Betta buy stock in odor sock!
When da U Foe floggers see dis
an start addin' da missing wavelength to warm lights...
We gonna be bazillionaires, brah!:dance:

Yer killin' me wit wit,

Weeze

Hey Horse,

I tried to warn you, if Weez came over here to help you.....

we'd all start to hang out on your porch.

He's only right ya know.
We're an un-ruly lot.

Aloha.
Weeze

Lemme get this disclaimer out of the way.
Notice:
This lizard is not an expert at anything but loafing.
I don't have "the one true way" . I'm just an old fart who has plenty of time to think about things and a budget that mothers my need to cobble together my own lights.

Betta buy stock in odor sock!
When da U Foe floggers see dis
an start addin' da missing wavelength to warm lights...
We gonna be bazillionaires, brah!

Maybe it would be easier to simply move to South America, that way at least you could become a Brazilionaire.

This whole home grow thing is taking a lot of time in educating myself in so many aspects and accumulating things that simply arenâ??t available easily. I have assembled a PC board or two in the past. Maybe when the learning curve falls off and I have more time (and the 3 of you are willing) you can guide me through a supplemental panel to add the missing spectrum/s to the ufoâ??s that Iâ??m starting with.

Adios,
Paniolo Guy

The three of you are welcome on my porch anytimeâ?¦..and by the way, SoCal was a typo I really meant South Carolina.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Horsemanrocks

Lemme get this disclaimer out of the way.
Notice:
This lizard is not an expert at anything but loafing.
I don't have "the one true way" . I'm just an old fart who has plenty of time to think about things and a budget that mothers my need to cobble together my own lights.

Albacore!?

Betta buy stock in odor sock!
When da U Foe floggers see dis
an start addin' da missing wavelength to warm lights...
We gonna be bazillionaires, brah!

Maybe it would be easier to simply move to South America, that way at least you could become a Brazilionaire.

LOL

This whole home grow thing is taking a lot of time in educating myself in so many aspects and accumulating things that simply arenâ??t available easily. I have assembled a PC board or two in the past. Maybe when the learning curve falls off and I have more time (and the 3 of you are willing) you can guide me through a supplemental panel to add the missing spectrum/s to the ufoâ??s that Iâ??m starting with.

If ya do it right da first time, you only got one missing wavelength.

An you can get Albacore at da grocery store, yah, brah?:D

W.

Adios,
Paniolo Guy

---

Happy trails podner.
Da 'zard

IMO, FWIW, messing around with low-power panels, even with an eye to modify them, is gonna lock you into obsolescence. The "infrastructure" of the devices won't support more effective components. You're gonna wind up replacing the entire thing, one system at a time.

Led light only got three parts:
1. leds
2. framework / heatsink / place to mount the leds (generally needs a small fan)
3. driver (power supply + current control or variation of that theme)

Better to get a honkin' big chunka heatsink and attach good leds to it, either with thermal epoxy or paste and screws. I'm thinking 1W leds on stars/MCPCB's minimum. That way, if something better comes out, you wanna add more emitters or extra colors, jes' stick 'em on dere.

And for anyone with heat issues, having the led drivers separate from the lamp itself keeps some heat outta the grow area. That's a considerable advantage to an all-in-one unit like a Procyon or UFO.

The advantage of buying a cheapy UFO is: dem guys buy their parts in quantities of bazzionlots so get the deep discount. Cost us double to build.

So if you can make a pre-built UFO work well for you as it comes outta the box, go for it! We can't build 'em that cheap. But as soon as ya start tryin' to soup 'em up, you're gonna wish you had started with beefy, chunky, 1950's America-style quality! :s4:

I'd hold off on a humidifier. Remember, there is an energy cost to the change of state from liquid to gas. (This is why fat girls feel more comfortable when they sweat.):icon220: Fortunately, You can pay that cost in unwanted heat energy. :D A simple and dangerous way to do this would be to just set a pan of water on a heat sink. (Don't do it that way, though.)

But think about your setup. There's a humidifier lurking there somewhere. Evaporation from the soil and transpiration of the plants is gonna contribute as well. Depending on your rate of air exchange, you may hafta humidify lotsa air for it to make a real difference.

Vented hoods work well. The glass does filter some light; some have removeable glass for use as a simple reflector as well. There are some folks who've done variable ducting so they can divert heated air to cold living areas in winter, or just dump it outside in the summer. Big topic there. Depends on lotsa specifics. And lotsa variables. Importance of proper ventilation / circulation is hard to over-emphasize.

Contractors!!!!!!!

The contractor just left. But after a lot of measuring, head scratching, and some language that I canâ??t repeatâ?¦..I think maybe he was Slovakianâ?¦â?¦he informed me that there was room on the porch for three of us OR one Hawaiian. To make the porch big enough for three of us AND one Hawaiian would run about $12,000 plus another 2 grand for plans, permits, and engineering. I of coarse said â??What the hell, letâ??s do itâ?�
He said that he would start in the morning and could probably complete the project by May 2012. I think I got a good deal, I expected it to run $15,000 minimum.
The good news is that I saved $10 on the ufoâ??s.

I started some indica seed from a 1000 plant grow that would have been big local news, but then, they never got caught. The seed has been in a freezer for 25 yearsâ?¦..36 hrs in a paper towel and Viola 100% germ and crackâ?¦.amazing!
So in about 90 days I have to figure out how to use them (ufo's)â?¦..anybody interested in schooling a Newb?

I was just thinking about the spectrum not supplied by the ufo that I bought, itâ??s red is completely 630nm. I imagined that the missing spectrum that the WeeZard mentioned was probably the 660nm red and that could be added with a bulb from HidHut. And no Hermie if I understood you I had no intention of altering the ufoâ??s, I was simply thinking about playing with a totally separate home built panel adding the 660nm andâ?¦â?¦.??? If youâ??re willing to go into more detail about all that blue that youâ??re usingâ?¦â?¦You would find me a willing listener.

Adios,
Paniolo guy.

Get that porch expanded, homie. Me 'n' the "boys" are headed over!

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Letâ??s see.... 3 plus the WeeZard plus the Village people. I better call that contractor back and renegotiate for an even bigger porch.

I know that the three of you are Led guys. I can tell by sooo many indicators that youâ??re pretty bright guys. (Iâ??ve followed some of your other blogs) Many times pretty bright guys are interested as long as the learning curve is high and interest begins to wane with the whole host of Newb questions arise. I hope that youâ??ll stay with me for a while longer, even though Iâ??m a Newbâ?¦ I would still honor your input.

Hermie, Iâ??ve followed some of your other stuff and itâ??s quite apparent to me that without more time and a concentrated effort that thereâ??s no way in hell that I could â??keep upâ?�â?¦..maybe in the winter. WeeZard you too and Oldmac

Another thing that I learned is that if I ask too many questions at a time, then some get overlooked. So hereâ??s todayâ??s one.
Itâ??s a Scrog DWC. If I imagine a 2 week veg and an 8 week flower how high would I expect the grow to end up (soil to tip). I ask this because I wouldnâ??t imagine it to get too high. If so I could start it higher off the floor to make it easier to work under the screen.

Thanks, Village people!

it all depends on your enviromental factors. lighting, nutes, strain etc, etc. why not grow a plant in your setup and see what it does in those two weeks. keep in mind that it will double to triple in size during flower.


-shake

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keep in mind that it will double to triple in size during flower.

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Shake, during the last 2-3 weeks 'Zard and I have been learning how to contol this.

WhiskeyTango noted, early on, that putting his Procyon too close to the plant would make it seem to stop growing.

I've got separate control for red and blue on my homemade light, so I figgered out to slam the plants with blue when you first flip them to 12 / 12. Stopped them in their tracks, stretch-wise. (This is prolly what WT experienced, I'd replicated it with a Procyon after he observed it.)

Thing was, the blue emitters on my homebrew light also made flowers pop like crazy, usually in 5 days. The closer to the emitter, the more pronounced the effect. This'd certainly be helpful if yer trying to determine sex. No big deal to me, jes' got some girlclones so no mystery there.

So, I'm not ready to drop my pants and shoot off rockets over early flower; I'm not sure how that relates to the many other changes the girl's gotta undergo to produce proper meds. But there is definitely a ton of control to be had when you're just manipulating these two spectra.

Weezard then figured out to also reduce red at this point to control.....well, I don't know what he's figured out yet. I'm such a heathen it would never have occurred to me to hit the plants with less than full power at at least one spectrum. But during early flower, individual red and blue control (sometimes not running "full power") lets you really manipulate things like stretch (and rate (and location!) of floral development).

One thing we both seemed to notice (W., correct me if I'm misstating this) was that once you've got enough blue, for whatever developmental stage you're in, additional blue is ignored (sort of). So why waste watts / heat?

Well, I'm rambling a bit here, but I'm comfortable claiming I can hold down stretch to 25% pretty easily. 20" veg plant in, 25" buds out--in that range. At least with this strain, WTF it is. :cool:

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interest begins to wane with the whole host of Newb questions arise. I hope that youâ??ll stay with me for a while

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Horseman, we're all noobs at some aspect of this. I can't answer your DWC question very well, because I am just now getting meters and stuff to try it for the first time. Maybe you can help me out when the time comes. I'll try and get back to pick up your earlier questions, there are good ones. :thumbsup: Sometimes the board moves fast, and the real world occupies me sometimes, too. :( Don't mean to ignore ya. :o

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how high would I expect the grow to end up

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Possibly a better way to approach this question is to ask yourself at what height you would like to finish your plants. You can have a degree of control over this. :thumbsup:

The screen's certainly gonna set the upper limit, unless you're counting horizontal growth along it. Maybe (again) I'm missing something. I mean, your plants will grow as high as the screen, right?....is this a trick question? :stoned:

thanks for the info dreaded. good stuff! i have been following along with you guys but must have missed that info that you just gave me (if it was posted somehwere). i've only been delved into this hobby since last october so i'm a noob still. yes i have come a long way but i still have infinite knowledge to gain.

and this LED talk makes my head hurt sometimes. lol. i do appreciate you guys and all that you do and share. and i do my best to share what i know and what experience that i have gained. one day i hope to be on the cutting edge like you guys. i've got a few ideas up my sleeve. thanks again.

that's exaclty what i was thinking about the screen too. worst case scenario you can make an adjustable one so you won't get stuck on a predetermined height?

horseman, don't let the noob thing stand in your way. there is only one way to not be a noob anymore (although like dreaded said we are all noobs at some aspect of this).

all of you guys rock!


-shake

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Itâ??s beginning to warm up in SoCal and I canâ??t seem to get my grow room over 71 degrees. It draws fresh air from under the house....

Jes' be careful what else (gnat eggs, mold spores, underweight grounghogs, etc.) your intake is pulling into your grow. Filtration may be wise. A closed system may be wiser, if you can manage it.

Iâ??m wondering what the effects would be if the Hid cycled on and off and left the Led,s on throughout the 12 hr cycle. A little heat managementâ?¦..but then who knows, Iâ??ll know more as things get going whether I have a heat problem or not.

Now that's interesting. The most effective application may be counter-intuitive, though.

Kicking yer HID on "mid-day" creates a thermal profile familiar to us: most intense light and heat at mid-day.

But the plants may like to start and end their day with the enhanced red /IR your HID may provide, a radiation wavelength profile that they're familiar with. That'd be interesting to play with, especially from a "martian nights" perspective.

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searching for more ????'s....:smokin:

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I like the combination of HPS and LEDs, they should compliment each other well. My first choice would be to combine your 250w HPS with a Procyon 100. I would bolt them close together and mount them on a light rail. This will spread out your light to cover the 5' length easily, plus it spreads the heat of the 250hps around some. Light penertration is so much better since the "angle of attack" of the light to the plant changes constantly, allowing light to hit ares that normally would be shaded with a fixed light. (it's also fun to watch!)

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Oldmac's suggestion above is not to be discounted. I wouldn't worry too much about not being able to sweep the entire length of the grow as the good rails have a timer for how long your lights dwell at the end of each pass. A huge advantage to this scheme which I forgot to mention is: less lights = less heat, less $$, less electrical usage.