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Why I, an ultra-liberal, oppose abortion
I oppose it because I see no difference between it and stabbing your two-year-old you decide you don't want anymore. For me, a fetus is a living thing that deserves rights.
And I'm familiar with the argument that women should be allowed to do whatever they like with their bodies. I couldn't agree more--except that when you have a life growing inside you, it isn't just you that's concerned anymore. As a libertarian-leaner, I think you should have the right to bulldoze down your own house---but not if your children are inside it.
Also, what about the fathers? I'd be seriously pissed if somebody killed my child without consulting me.
I'm liberal on the vast majority of issues, but I see no reason why self-proclaimed liberals would declare their unequivocal support for pre-emptive infanticide.
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Why I, an ultra-liberal, oppose abortion
i don't like abortion either and i don't know anyone who does...it's disgusting
but i don't support an outright ban on abortion
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Why I, an ultra-liberal, oppose abortion
Quote:
Originally Posted by maladroit
i don't like abortion either and i don't know anyone who does...it's disgusting
but i don't support an outright ban on abortion
Agreed...I think if the mother's life is threatened, or if the kid's going to be born without a brain, or if there was rape involved, then yeah.
But other than that, you get knocked up, you made your bed, so to speak.
And yes, in a way we've gone morally downhill since the Middle Ages....back then, they wouldn't hang a pregnant woman because they thought killing the innocent child would be immoral. Funny; we seem to have no such scruples today.
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Why I, an ultra-liberal, oppose abortion
if there was no legal access to abortion, young women would be killing their fetii and often themselves anyway with unsafe illegal abortions...our health care system should put resources into reducing abortion
the majority of abortions are done before the 10th week when the embryo (it's not a fetus yet) is less than five grams and 3cm long, and one third of abortions are performed before the 7th week when the embryo doesn't have a brain and looks like this:
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Why I, an ultra-liberal, oppose abortion
A fetus is a parasitic entity feeding off it's host, and the host has the right to eject that freeloading parasite from her womb at any time.
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Why I, an ultra-liberal, oppose abortion
Quote:
Originally Posted by overgrowthegovt
Agreed...I think if the mother's life is threatened, or if the kid's going to be born without a brain, or if there was rape involved, then yeah.
But other than that, you get knocked up, you made your bed, so to speak.
And yes, in a way we've gone morally downhill since the Middle Ages....back then, they wouldn't hang a pregnant woman because they thought killing the innocent child would be immoral. Funny; we seem to have no such scruples today.
Yeah, but it was socially acceptable for men to have mistresses, fuck everything that walked, and mercilessly kill each other for the sake of "honor".
That's only the beginning of how fucked up we were in the middle ages.
And, honestly, I believe that we're in danger of overpopulating the world at the rate we're tearing through natural resources, so I could care less if someone gets an abortion.
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Why I, an ultra-liberal, oppose abortion
In early America it was up to each state. Most states banned abortion but had exceptions for life of the mother, etc. Roe v Wade changed that and is why many Americans would like to see RvW repealed. Few states would have outright bans, most would have some exceptions based on the will of the people.
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Why I, an ultra-liberal, oppose abortion
wow...things haven't changed much since the middle ages
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Why I, an ultra-liberal, oppose abortion
Quote:
Originally Posted by maladroit
wow...things haven't changed much since the middle ages
Plenty has changed... :D
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Why I, an ultra-liberal, oppose abortion
Quote:
Originally Posted by Breukelen advocaat
A fetus is a parasitic entity feeding off it's host, and the host has the right to eject that freeloading parasite from her womb at any time.
Again, you could say the same about anyone under 18, really.
And yeah, I agree with it being legal, because we can't stop it and we can at least make sure they're safe, but I'd just rather they didn't, you know?
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Why I, an ultra-liberal, oppose abortion
Quote:
Originally Posted by JakeMartinez
Yeah, but it was socially acceptable for men to have mistresses, fuck everything that walked, and mercilessly kill each other for the sake of "honor".
That's only the beginning of how fucked up we were in the middle ages.
And, honestly, I believe that we're in danger of overpopulating the world at the rate we're tearing through natural resources, so I could care less if someone gets an abortion.
In places like Africa and India populations are soaring, but there's no reason for Canadians to abort their kids, since we actually shrink without immigration. The wealthier people are, the less they tend to breed, so the end of global poverty will greatly slow population growth. But alas, the West has an agenda, of course.
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Why I, an ultra-liberal, oppose abortion
In a free market society, someone has to be poor and foot the bill for the people who are rich. You can't end poverty with something that generates poverty.
And, we're rapidly turning in to a globalized world, where even if the United States is the richest country in the world and our population keeps booming and booming, our citizens are depleting resources SOMEWHERE, if not here.
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Why I, an ultra-liberal, oppose abortion
abortion: it's no different than beef.
To start off, allow me to explain how the spirit of the hunt is correlated with abortions.
The spirit of the hunt is to honor the hunted, and treat them as if they were direct family members. you would not let a family member's body go to waste, when you needed to eat their flesh.
the idea is that if stem cells can still benefit humanity, than an aborted fetus is a buffalo and we MUST use all parts of the buffalo for the community. an aborted human child, i would think, would be stressed even more greatly that we do not let their life go to waste.
Stem cells could assist cancer patients, quadriplegics, diabetics, osteoporosis patients, AIDS patients, and who knows what else!
For all we KNOW, they could assist sex change patients in their transition.
I am pro choice, but anti-anti-stem cell research.
NO: we cannot simply sacrifice fetuses for the sake of research, HOWEVER we CAN NOT just throw those who ARE aborted, in the trash! THAT IS A DISRESPECT FOR LIFE ITSELF!
Abortions are going to happen weather it's legal or not, either by intent, or by accident. throwing away the aborted child is only an added insult to injury.
Research stem cells, allow women the choice of child bearing, and those who choose to abort their pregnancy should be allowed, so long as their aborted fetus is used for medicine and not just discarded and put to waste.
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Why I, an ultra-liberal, oppose abortion
Where would we be as a people if the mothers of Jesus, Budah or any other great spiritual leader went and got an abortion?
What if we inadvertantly killed the zygoat that was ment to reawaken the human mind or cure cancer or aids?
You play with fire you get burnt. There are many childless couples that would love to raise a child ( like myself and my wife) and get sick when we hear of abortion.
Abortion is the rape of a humans potential greatness.
Who knows maybe someone could have grown up to creat the next super duper skunk strain. but oh well he/she is fertilizer in the land fill.
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Why I, an ultra-liberal, oppose abortion
Given a choice between a woman having an abortion or bringing an unwanted and often resented child into this world then I have to be for abortion.
The rule should be that if a woman has two abortions in her lifetime (discounting abortions on the grounds of health or rape) then she should be sterilised. The same should apply to blokes who get women pregnant without regard for the consequences.
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Why I, an ultra-liberal, oppose abortion
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatekeeper777
Where would we be as a people if the mothers of Jesus, Budah or any other great spiritual leader went and got an abortion?
What if we inadvertantly killed the zygoat that was ment to reawaken the human mind or cure cancer or aids? You play with fire you get burnt. There are many childless couples that would love to raise a child ( like myself and my wife) and get sick when we hear of abortion. Abortion is the rape of a humans potential greatness. Who knows maybe someone could have grown up to creat the next super duper skunk strain. but oh well he/she is fertilizer in the land fill.
There is a much greater chance that an unwanted child will turn out to be a mass murderer, than a great leader, scientist, or teacher.
Nobody should be forced to carry a fetus to term if they do not want to bear children. If the fetus' that became Hitler and Stalin had been flushed down the toilet, the world would have avoided much misery.
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Why I, an ultra-liberal, oppose abortion
forced sterilization seems a tad extreme...that's like forcing nosepickers to get their fingers amputated
how about first abortion $300, second abortion $3,000, third abortion $30,000?
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Why I, an ultra-liberal, oppose abortion
Quote:
Originally Posted by maladroit
forced sterilization seems a tad extreme...that's like forcing nosepickers to get their fingers amputated
how about first abortion $300, second abortion $3,000, third abortion $30,000?
Tax payers would have to foot the bill...
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Why I, an ultra-liberal, oppose abortion
My ex ol'lady was forced sterilized. she lost her two kids to their fathers and one died due to lack of medical care, so when she was havig her last one C section the doc tied her tubes and told her when she woke up. YOUR DONE!
HO!
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Why I, an ultra-liberal, oppose abortion
Quote:
Originally Posted by maladroit
forced sterilization seems a tad extreme...that's like forcing nosepickers to get their fingers amputated
how about first abortion $300, second abortion $3,000, third abortion $30,000?
It would certainly make some women and men take contraception a bit more seriously.
And nosepicking. :p
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Why I, an ultra-liberal, oppose abortion
Quote:
Originally Posted by Breukelen advocaat
There is a much greater chance that an unwanted child will turn out to be a mass murderer, than a great leader, scientist, or teacher.
Really? says who? you? is there any data that proves this?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Breukelen advocaat
Nobody should be forced to carry a fetus to term if they do not want to bear children. If the fetus' that became Hitler and Stalin had been flushed down the toilet, the world would have avoided much misery.
On the other hand we've probably already flushed the cures for cancer and hiv down the toilet
And no one is "forced" to carry a fetus, the person chose to take part in the act that creates the fetus most likely knowing the possible outcomes....rape possibly a different story
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Why I, an ultra-liberal, oppose abortion
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Originally Posted by psychocat
It would certainly make some women and men take contraception a bit more seriously.
And nosepicking. :p
Only if tax payers don't have to "pick" up the bill. There'd be less people against abortion if tax payers didn't have to fund it...
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Why I, an ultra-liberal, oppose abortion
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Originally Posted by BeefsMyFav
Really? says who? you? is there any data that proves this?
No "data" is even necessary. The world already has many more idiots, than really great people. To think that we'll be better off with more unhappiness does not make sense.
On the other hand we've probably already flushed the cures for cancer and hiv down the toilet
Do you really think that having a more crowded world would result in advancement of the sciences, and less medical problems? I believe that the opposite is true.
And no one is "forced" to carry a fetus, the person chose to take part in the act that creates the fetus most likely knowing the possible outcomes....rape possibly a different story
If birth control fails, then abortion is the next logical step. Additionally, people's situations change: Loss of job, divorce, illness, and many other factors contribute to the reasons that people decide to terminate a pregnancy.
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Why I, an ultra-liberal, oppose abortion
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatekeeper777
Where would we be as a people if the mothers of Jesus, Budah or any other great spiritual leader went and got an abortion?
What if we inadvertantly killed the zygoat that was ment to reawaken the human mind or cure cancer or aids?
You play with fire you get burnt. There are many childless couples that would love to raise a child ( like myself and my wife) and get sick when we hear of abortion.
Abortion is the rape of a humans potential greatness.
Who knows maybe someone could have grown up to creat the next super duper skunk strain. but oh well he/she is fertilizer in the land fill.
No offense is intended in this statement, however, sticking spirituality into physical laws is arrogant sir.
Jesus, Buddha, Gandhi, whoever have you, was a spirit, not a fucking embryo. ANY body will do for the spiritual goals!
the spirit destined to save humanity is humanity itself. we are responsible for only our selves, and to think that we can be saved by another outside influence is not only weak, but the only reason we might ever need an outside influence to save us!
given than detrimental logic, there will be no outside force to save ourselves. we must save ourselves, BY ourselves, by HELPING EACH OTHER.
no amount of abortions can prevent a particular soul from entering into life, if that particular soul is truly intended to exist.
the only rape of the human potential is what the individual chooses to ignore in the individual's own life.
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Why I, an ultra-liberal, oppose abortion
Being the classical liberal that i am, i tend to support the option for a woman to have an abortion. Yet...
Being the republican that i am, states rights are very important to me. This is why i believe Roe vs. Wade should be overturned.
Its not that i believe in circumstances, but more so that a person should not have an issue as sensitive as abortion thrown down their throat if you are an American citizen. Here we as citizens of this great country have the opportunnity to move a thousand miles in another direction if we please, therefore if yo do not believe in the laws of your state, move to one that suits your beliefs.
Democracy begins and ends with the states. What better way is there to bring more dilligence to the electoral college. I mean, they have robbed you of your vice president and senate, this just evens things up...
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Why I, an ultra-liberal, oppose abortion
You know, the argument that "She knew what she was getting in to when she was having sex" is essentially a way of punishing women for not being able to say no to sex, or a guy saying "Come on, honey, can't we go bareback just this once?". That's great. I know anecdotal evidence doesn't amount to shit for most people, but most of the women I know have been forced into sex multiple times by their boyfriends.
Just because she didn't say "no" and didn't close her legs doesn't mean that she's a whore or that she was a willing participant. Many women don't know how to say no to a man in the bedroom, ESPECIALLY rape victims (odd paradox, isn't it?).
Anyway, the point of that is that I believe it's a woman's right to choose whether or not to abort a pregnancy.
The child has just as much a chance of growing up to be a "bad" person as it does to grow up and be a "good" person, so that's a dead argument.
And, personally, I don't believe life begins until brain activity starts...anyone know when that happens during a pregnancy?
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Why I, an ultra-liberal, oppose abortion
hey GB
what is the highest priority: state rights or individual rights?
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Why I, an ultra-liberal, oppose abortion
Well well, I'm glad to see everyone's doing well here! haha!
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Why I, an ultra-liberal, oppose abortion
All pretty solid arguments, people, but I think we can all probably agree on a stance against late-term or partial-birth abortions....I had an EXTREMELY heated argument with my roommate on this one, since he says there's nothing wrong with having an abortion the day before it's due.
Now, try and defend THAT one, please. Perhaps life doesn't begin as soon as the sperm hits the eggs, but it definitely begins somewhere in the womb.
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Why I, an ultra-liberal, oppose abortion
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Originally Posted by overgrowthegovt
All pretty solid arguments, people, but I think we can all probably agree on a stance against late-term or partial-birth abortions....I had an EXTREMELY heated argument with my roommate on this one, since he says there's nothing wrong with having an abortion the day before it's due.
Now, try and defend THAT one, please. Perhaps life doesn't begin as soon as the sperm hits the eggs, but it definitely begins somewhere in the womb.
True that mate. I'm pro-choice but god DAMN, if someone really wants to cut a 6 pound body out of themselves, they really need help. Jesus, even getting thrown down the stairs halfway through is better than THAT, and that's sad. But then, I'm all for contraception. Don't want a baby? Pretty easy to avoid it; use a rubber or get on birth control (just make sure you take it right, nothing worse than fucking a girl and having her say "Did I take my pill today? .....yeah, probably.")
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Why I, an ultra-liberal, oppose abortion
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Originally Posted by DaBudhaStank
True that mate. I'm pro-choice but god DAMN, if someone really wants to cut a 6 pound body out of themselves, they really need help. Jesus, even getting thrown down the stairs halfway through is better than THAT, and that's sad. But then, I'm all for contraception. Don't want a baby? Pretty easy to avoid it; use a rubber or get on birth control (just make sure you take it right, nothing worse than fucking a girl and having her say "Did I take my pill today? .....yeah, probably.")
Oh yeah, I'm all for contraception, of course...nothing would be better for Africa or India than several million air-dropped rubbers.
I feel very strange being pro-life when I despise basically every single other conservative viewpoint....that's why I had to specify in the thread title, so as not to be assumed to be an ultra-Christian gun-collector or anything like that.
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Why I, an ultra-liberal, oppose abortion
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Originally Posted by overgrowthegovt
...nothing would be better for Africa or India than several million air-dropped rubbers.
hahahahahahah. Don't forget China bro, they like to get rid of little girls since they aren't as effective on the rice paddies as boys. Now they have a serious population problem because their men outnumber their women by 30 million. Some fucked up shit.
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Why I, an ultra-liberal, oppose abortion
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaBudhaStank
hahahahahahah. Don't forget China bro, they like to get rid of little girls since they aren't as effective on the rice paddies as boys. Now they have a serious population problem because their men outnumber their women by 30 million. Some fucked up shit.
Seems like free love is the only answer to that one...can't give 30 million guys going without some tail; need to share the available supply.
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Why I, an ultra-liberal, oppose abortion
Wow. am I the only one who finds the hypocrisy of this issue to be ironic?
We (Cannabis enthusiasts) have been punished, prosecuted, persecuted and oppressed for many years because of our CONSENT to partake in an activity. However, certain other people feel this activity is "bad" and "harmful" and that it can hurt us. These people feel the need to tell us that WE, the consenting individuals can no longer smoke our herb because THEY feel it is bad.
now to abortion. I am not particularly fond of it and would avoid having one at all costs. However, do I feel that I need to shove my values down someone else's throat? no, because I'm not a hypocritical douche.
moral of the story: don't try to push your values on other people, regardless of how important you think your values are. We as a community cannot legally smoke because other people think it is bad. Is this fair? no, so dont perpetuate the problem by forcing your shitty values on other people.
if you think abortion is bad, thats fine; don't have one and everything will be fine.
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Why I, an ultra-liberal, oppose abortion
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Originally Posted by Breukelen advocaat
A fetus is a parasitic entity feeding off it's host, and the host has the right to eject that freeloading parasite from her womb at any time.
With that logic lets go ahead and kill every crippled or mentally disabled person.
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Why I, an ultra-liberal, oppose abortion
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Originally Posted by apocolips31
With that logic lets go ahead and kill every crippled or mentally disabled person.
Once we get socialized health care it will start.
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Why I, an ultra-liberal, oppose abortion
I feel very strange being pro-life when I despise basically every single other conservative viewpoint....that's why I had to specify in the thread title, so as not to be assumed to be an ultra-Christian gun-collector or anything like that.[/QUOTE]
Why do you have a problem with freedom loving gun collectors?
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Why I, an ultra-liberal, oppose abortion
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Originally Posted by FeedmeWeed
Wow. am I the only one who finds the hypocrisy of this issue to be ironic?
We (Cannabis enthusiasts) have been punished, prosecuted, persecuted and oppressed for many years because of our CONSENT to partake in an activity. However, certain other people feel this activity is "bad" and "harmful" and that it can hurt us. These people feel the need to tell us that WE, the consenting individuals can no longer smoke our herb because THEY feel it is bad.
now to abortion. I am not particularly fond of it and would avoid having one at all costs. However, do I feel that I need to shove my values down someone else's throat? no, because I'm not a hypocritical douche.
moral of the story: don't try to push your values on other people, regardless of how important you think your values are. We as a community cannot legally smoke because other people think it is bad. Is this fair? no, so dont perpetuate the problem by forcing your shitty values on other people.
if you think abortion is bad, thats fine; don't have one and everything will be fine.
Well said. :thumbsup:
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Why I, an ultra-liberal, oppose abortion
Quote:
Originally Posted by FeedmeWeed
Wow. am I the only one who finds the hypocrisy of this issue to be ironic?
We (Cannabis enthusiasts) have been punished, prosecuted, persecuted and oppressed for many years because of our CONSENT to partake in an activity. However, certain other people feel this activity is "bad" and "harmful" and that it can hurt us. These people feel the need to tell us that WE, the consenting individuals can no longer smoke our herb because THEY feel it is bad.
now to abortion. I am not particularly fond of it and would avoid having one at all costs. However, do I feel that I need to shove my values down someone else's throat? no, because I'm not a hypocritical douche.
moral of the story: don't try to push your values on other people, regardless of how important you think your values are. We as a community cannot legally smoke because other people think it is bad. Is this fair? no, so dont perpetuate the problem by forcing your shitty values on other people.
if you think abortion is bad, thats fine; don't have one and everything will be fine.
But see, it's wrong for people to force their values on others if it pertains to something that harms nobody else....drug use, prostitution, and other victimless crimes should not be prohibited because that is, as you say, an unjust imposition of values. However, if the action in question does harm to somebody else, it is and should be criminal....we should be allowed to hurt ourselves, but not to go out and shoot somebody. Fetuses are not given the respect they deserve as a living human being that ought to be protected from arbitrary murder. I suppose murder laws are a case of values being unjustly pushed too, eh?
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Why I, an ultra-liberal, oppose abortion
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Originally Posted by overgrowthegovt
But see, it's wrong for people to force their values on others if it pertains to something that harms nobody else....drug use, prostitution, and other victimless crimes should not be prohibited because that is, as you say, an unjust imposition of values. However, if the action in question does harm to somebody else, it is and should be criminal....we should be allowed to hurt ourselves, but not to go out and shoot somebody. Fetuses are not given the respect they deserve as a living human being that ought to be protected from arbitrary murder. I suppose murder laws are a case of values being unjustly pushed too, eh?
I think you will find that the laws covering abortion are very different to those covering murder.
Just because it wouldn't be your choice does not mean you have a right to impose your choices on others.
