It seems as if the nation's attitude towards the economy has a pretty direct relationship to their attitude towards politics, so I'm wondering...what do you guys think? Please be honest.
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It seems as if the nation's attitude towards the economy has a pretty direct relationship to their attitude towards politics, so I'm wondering...what do you guys think? Please be honest.
I believe we will bounce back, wont be over night or over 6 months, but this time next year we will be much better. I think the reason everyone is scared about the economy is becuase it a election year. BOTH!! the canidites try an scare everyone by saying how bad we are and how much we need then or we are going to have a "great depression" Soon as EITHER of the canidites are elected the economy will be better(not back to normal but better)
I started really listening to the candidates because of the economy...it scares the shit out of me and pisses me off at the same time.Quote:
Originally Posted by stoned88911
i never would have thought it would get this bad, and it's going to get worse...if the usa bounces back in a year or two, it will still be facing an economic apocalypse due to the national debt, trade deficit, and the unfunded liabilities in social security and medicare...the total monetary value of those debts makes the burst real estate bubble look like a bad fart...now the us gov't is in crisis management so dealing with those debts is being put off AGAIN
You're right, Mal. I'm just worried if things get to a great depression level, whoever's in charge will probably declare martial law to keep the people from rioting everywhere...
I honestly did not think "We're Completely Screwed" would be the number one answer.
This whole mess was created by the media starting about a year and a half ago.... About the time the presidential election started.... The media created the uneasy feeling and people stopped spending so much money... Plus, Election years are ALWAYS scary times for businesses...
The media wants a Liberal in command, kind of ironic how their agendas will eventually kill "Freedom of the Press." Stupid.....
Bottom line.... The media created this consumer confidence mess....The media wants Obama elected (for those who don't watch TV)....Obama has the most to gain from a failing economy... String some things together between why things are failing and the Democrat's/MSM's agenda and you'll see why everyone is being scared to death watching the news.
It may take a year, but the economy will recover.... Just let capitalism do its thing.
Things were much worse in the early 1980's. Many people here, including myself were not around then, but the situations were similar.
Credit was very hard to come by, except that was the goal of then Federal Reserve chairman Paul Volker as inflation was was in double digits.
The fact of the matter is, things will get better. But.... It is you and i who will have to push for those gradual changes that will bring forth both a more free nation, and an actual free economy. Truthfully, change of this nature will not be quick. As RebGirl stated in another thread, begin taking action and interest locally. That is how you will garner the quickest change for the better. Do not lose hope, the political hustlers prey on it so that they can promise you something that requires you to change, not the other way around:jointsmile:
Pink i think we are on the same page.
maybe we should define better!?! Yeah, even after the great depression things got better...then worse...then better...then worse. I was too young to remember the 80's, and Ill take your word for it. But didnt the 90's have a dot.com bust, the now the real estate bust. Maybe better wouldnt be repeating the same greedy mistakes. Unfortunately I think things will get better (i think you mean more buying power from the dollar) but I would bet in my lifetime we see a complete collapse of the dollar. But that doesnt mean we'll all starve. Just have a new beginning with some other fiat money! history will repeat itself! we are just along for the ride!Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenBoy812
Business cycles have always existed in post mercantilist economies. Even PME's had very trying times, although the rich were rarely ever effected (pre revolutionary France is a good reference).Quote:
Originally Posted by theforthdrive
Our current situations are due to the imperfections of humanity. If we or any algorithmic program had clairvoyance, everything would be perfect. This is not a perfect world, and humans as a whole do not always make the best decisions even if it involves their very well being.
The fact remains that capitalism, with both its goods and bads has improved the living conditions of the societies that has embraced it.
capitalism isn't improving the lives of many people in poorer countries...it serves the rich first...the blind profit seeking behaviour of capitalism makes errectile dysfunction of a few million rich people a bigger priority than water borne diseases of a few billion poor people
Bill Gates Issues Call For Kinder Capitalism - WSJ.com
Bill Gates Issues Call
For Kinder Capitalism
Famously Competitive,
Billionaire Now Urges
Business to Aid the Poor
By ROBERT A. GUTH
January 24, 2008
Free enterprise has been good to Bill Gates. But today, the Microsoft Corp. chairman will call for a revision of capitalism.
In a speech at the World Economic Forum in Davos, Switzerland, the software tycoon plans to call for a "creative capitalism" that uses market forces to address poor-country needs that he feels are being ignored.
"We have to find a way to make the aspects of capitalism that serve wealthier people serve poorer people as well," Mr. Gates will tell world leaders at the forum, according to a copy of the speech seen by The Wall Street Journal.
Mr. Gates isn't abandoning his belief in capitalism as the best economic system. But in an interview with the Journal last week at his Microsoft office in Redmond, Wash., Mr. Gates said that he has grown impatient with the shortcomings of capitalism. He said he has seen those failings first-hand on trips for Microsoft to places like the South African slum of Soweto, and discussed them with dozens of experts on disease and poverty. He has voraciously read about those failings in books that propose new approaches to narrowing the gap between rich and poor.
In particular, he said, he's troubled that advances in technology, health care and education tend to help the rich and bypass the poor. "The rate of improvement for the third that is better off is pretty rapid," he said. "The part that's unsatisfactory is for the bottom third -- two billion of six billion."
*snip*
I knew that one of the replies would be from you containing that tone.
The main distinction of the global south from the north is government stability. I shall strike down straw man fallacies with great wrath!
you didn't say anything about stability when you said "The fact remains that capitalism, with both its goods and bads has improved the living conditions of the societies that has embraced it."
LAY ON MCSTRAWMANDUFF!! And damn'd be him that first cries, 'Hold, enough'!
Of course i did not, that is because i was not referring to the global south. It might have been a good idea to understand the basis of your rebuttals before you present them, that way i would not have to waste time explaining basic concepts to you. If you want to present anti American propaganda, at least do so in a proper manner. It would make for a more lively debate, as well as give me something of substance to contemplate.Quote:
Originally Posted by maladroit
Answer me this... Why would i have to refer to the stability of political systems in the global south, when i was in fact describing the global north? It is you who should have been keen enough to cover your tracks, since you were the one to bring it up. Either that, or refrain from barking up the wrong tree.
It will bounce back. It always does. The market is just fixing itself.
I hope people learn from this mess and make stricter laws and rules about who gets loans and mortgages. Right now they are giving them to every Joe Schmoe that walks through the door. It's part predaztor lending but it's mostly the fact that Liberals have been making sure these matters are "equal oppurtunity" or "fair lending". Which REALLY means "taking money even though you know you can't afford it" or "I just glimpsed over the small print instead of reading it through".
What ever happened to saving up and working hard to support your family, house, car, etc.? Now everyone thinks they are entitled to this shit (just like healthcare).
This is the proverbial fuel to the fire, with respects to the current economic crisis. Yes investment firms were over leveraged, but there was a spike in sub prime debt to encourage this trend.Quote:
Originally Posted by rebgirl420
I wonder the same thing.Quote:
What ever happened to saving up and working hard to support your family, house, car, etc.? Now everyone thinks they are entitled to this shit (just like healthcare).
That is why you cannot try to provide equal rules to everyone. By doing so, you are hoping that everyone will do the right thing, or at least try to do so. When this fails to materialize, margins are called and the people who are debating me cry foul when they are the ones calling for equal opportunity.
"The fact remains that capitalism, with both its goods and bads has improved the living conditions of the societies that has embraced it."
This "Fact" is completely subjective. For some having the creature comforts, so called 'basic sanitation', capitalist goods and services, is an improvement. Not for all. There are people who grow there own foods, make their own clothes, shit in the woods, and drink water from the streams. All the while smiling as much if not more than Joe the robot watching the television.
And there are villagers the world over attempting to embrace capitalism only to have factories pull out of their towns, leaving them with televisions they cannot afford to plug into a wall.
Yes capitalism has advanced and improved life for SOME people in the societies that have embraced it. I do not think the same can be said for the whole of the societies.
Just as the herb has improved many lives it has touched, but not all...:(
but definitely mine:thumbsup:
My mistake, I could have sworn health care IS a right, ya know.....the RIGHT to be able to see a doctor when you're sick or injured instead of having to stay home and suck it up? Maybe? It could be just me. People aren't entitled to much, but having your physical well being maintained is DEFINITELY a right, especially when it's threatened by something that's not your fault.Quote:
Originally Posted by rebgirl420
But then, the government has never been a fan of health care in general. Kinda like how veterans often get the total dick when they come home, because they can't afford health care and the government won't do shit to help them.
Capitalism, as I've said before, is outdated and needs to be completely overhauled.
Just because it's the best thing we've had, it doesn't mean it's the best we can ever hope to achieve.
No matter what, everything that exists in our universe is a product of it, and will constantly be revised and improved or even replaced by something better.
400 or so years is a good run, but it's time to find something better.
Happiness does not equate to standard of living.Quote:
Originally Posted by allrollsin21
The societies you site as example have not truly embraced capitalism. Care to give some specific examples?Quote:
And there are villagers the world over attempting to embrace capitalism only to have factories pull out of their towns, leaving them with televisions they cannot afford to plug into a wall.
Yes, but have yet to state with detail why it should.Quote:
Originally Posted by JakeMartinez
Social democracy is what you seek. It will have a tough time in regards to competition with capitalism. Capitalism is based solely on competition, you will find it hard to replace a system such as this without global totalitarian order...Quote:
Just because it's the best thing we've had, it doesn't mean it's the best we can ever hope to achieve.
No matter what, everything that exists in our universe is a product of it, and will constantly be revised and improved or even replaced by something better.
400 or so years is a good run, but it's time to find something better.
What makes health care a right? All that you state above is a plea to pity.Quote:
Originally Posted by DaBudhaStank
Practically all of western europe view health care as a right. They view their citizens as resources that has the potential to earn capital. A healthy and educated country has proven to be successful time and time again. I observed between all these arguments, it's either for capitalism or against. This makes zero sense to me considering a country like Switzerland, one of the most capitalist countries in the world, has a socialized health care system. With combination of efforts from the private health care, as well as the government providing more medicare, I cannot see why there isn't viable solution.Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenBoy812
I'd rather pay for someones health care than a few soldiers "vacations" to be posted in Germany for a few years. Or their living expenses. Or tax benefits. The only money soldiers are bring in is government spending for defense contracts. Otherwise they are the same type of burden as citizens would when it comes to health care.
This is a good point, and i am glad you brought it up. Most of western Europe does have care such as this, as does a large part of eastern Europe. Yet think of the history of government in Europe, who for a rather long time depended on monarchy to govern. Our (American) culture as a whole was developed with less of a dependence on government in its conception, which is why such measures of Universal Health Care have met harsh critics.Quote:
Originally Posted by thcbongman
I support the idea of a resource based economy and society.
And, the only way that can happen is if Capitalism fails.
You're right, trying to compete with Capitalism is like taking on a formidable opponent on his home turf. You still have a chance of winning, but it's about the size of a grain of sand.
Trickle Down Economics have never worked.
You give the rich a Tax Break and they outsource.
But we can bail them out, they get the profits, we pay the debit!!!
Capitolism and Free Enterprise at it's finest!
or is that Socialism?
In the poll, I said I thought we were in a deep recession that could last a long time. I am certain we are entering at least a normal recession that is part of what I think is a normal business cycle. Ordinarily that would not last very long on its own. But that is not all that is going on. We are also having this credit crisis that is not part of a normal business cycle --- it is an abnormal problem added to the normal recession. The deflation of the housing bubble, the resulting credit crisis, the cyclical recession, the stock market crash, and the huge national debt may all begin to reinforce eachother in bad ways and create a worse economic crisis. I don't think we are headed for another Great Depression (but it is possible). More likely the crisis will not technicaly be a Depression, but it could be severe and could last a long time --- maybe something like the "Lost Decade" in Japan during the 90's.
See, it's the synergy of all these problems (cyclical recession, housing bubble burst, subprime mortgage crisis, stock market volatility, credit crunch, rising unemployment, rising energy costs followed by a "crash" in crude oil prices, increased inflation/decreased buying power of the dollar vs. world markets, and the way the Fed is HEMORRHAGING new money to bail out the lenders) that make me think we're in for some very rough times. Oh I forgot to mention that consumer sentiment is down the drain, too. I mean, look at this poll. The number one answer is "We're completely screwed." Consumer confidence plays a huge role in the economy.Quote:
Originally Posted by dragonrider
EDIT: I forgot to add one to the list...Credit Card lenders are about to take a shit. That's what I've been reading, lately. Like the economy needs ANOTHER major nail in its coffin.
Universal Declaration of Human Rights
Article 25
(1) Everyone has the right to a standard of living
adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of
his family, including food, clothing, housing and
MEDICAL CARE and necessary social services, and the right
to security in the event of unemployment, sickness,
disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of
livelihood in circumstances beyond his control.
Lets be honest, its waaaaaaaaaay too optimistic to expect countries to uphold every part of the UN Declaration. Its something they signed on to, and aspire to...the 'rosey' picture, so to speak. yet there are always violations...even in the G8 countries. It is simply talk at the UN...all damn day. Nothing gets done. And they don't have the means to make people abide by such declarations.
A better example might be the right to life. Mentioned in the US Constitution, not to mention many around the world. I'm sorry but some people need to step out of this god-fearing view of anything socialized...health care is a necessity, and if not affordable, it should be provided. Everyone has the right to live.
the current downturn is the result of the US moving from an economy based on production to one based on consumption.
With consumption it is possible to earn money and lots of it very rapidly, but it's risky. Handing out loans to consumers, and then collateralize that debt as a commodity is next to impossible to reliably mangae and even more difficult to predict it's risk of failure.
With a production based system, you have to invest significantly in your workforce, their training, health, and standard of living, without immediate returns. However this debt is consolidated and more easily managed, with more predictable risks.
Historically the US was strongest, economically, politically and militarily when money was earned by making and selling a physical product. Now however the majority of what we consume is imported, incidentally the jobs which used to be our bread and butter, have been marginalized. Income has grown, but cost of living has increased more. This is because the jobs which are now our mainstay are retail, and service sector jobs, jobs that don't require much training, come with fewer benefits, and pay less.
if the government gets out of the way, recovery will come quicker, but i don't see them getting out of the way.
Although a couple more legs down are to be expected in the coming months, there is strong possibility we have already reached the bottom in the equity and credit markets.
Further lows in both residential and commercial real estate could be on the horizon, as the total amount of jobless claims continues to rise six figures a month.
Polls like this should be repeated periodically, like 6 months or yearly, to see changes in people's opinion on a subject over time.
How geeky did that sound? Sounds interesting.
I agree with you, Jake on having an outdated system thats oppressive and manipulative in the interests of an "elite" few...Im afraid, in my opinion, that we're seeing smoke and mirrors and later on the rubber will REALLY hit the road, they must realize not all of us are subservient sheep...and they will.
Speaking from here in Houston Galveston area, things never were too bad. I knew one other family who were foreclosed on but they were financially illiterate and wasteful spenders. Neither had amazing jobs and they both drove 50 thousand dollar cars so they got what they deserved. My wife works for a subcontractor of Nasa in Clear Lake and they laid of a few but most got new jobs.
Unemployment nationwide during the actual Great Depression was around 30% nationwide. We barely brushed 10% this time.
I am very concerned, the jobs situation is ugly and not looking good long term. This country thrives on small business, the hairdresser,contractor, small restaurant owner making and spending money, This admin. is putting terrible pressure on small biz and it's going to get worse when we have to pay for this healthcare boondogle. Many millions had their retirement and only real savings tied up in their houses, now they are upside down and making mortgage payments just too keep a roof over their heads.
Economically, the worlds rush to gold (and away from the dollar) make our paychecks worth even less when we purchase comodities. I'm afraid I am very bearish on this economy, we are in for a rough ride I am afraid.
run out and buy more chinese crap on credit
LOLQuote:
Originally Posted by Dutch Pimp
Let's put things in to perspective.
Since the day I was born, someday in 1983...
Prices a.k.a inflation, have always risen steadily over time. Same with fuel prices, etc. Keeping these important factors in mind, lets talk about how often you get a raise at work, and compare that to inflation.
Slowly but surely, you eventually won't be able to take care of yourself, people will need to start shacking up just to pay rent and get by.
Now let's think about the last time gas prices, or prices on anything has gone down... I don't believe it ever has... maybe a few cents down one day, then 5 up a few days later.
No matter what, they will find more innovative ways to get more money out of you, and in the end all your left with is empty pockets. This whole world has gone to shit because everyone want's the same thing, more money. Money = power, those with Money = those with power. And we all know what people with power want, more power. Eventually there won't be anything left for anyone, then what will happen? Chaos.