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WTF was mccain talking about when he said that canada's response to obama's nafta policy was "we'll sell our oil to china"? i live in canada and i never heard anything remotely like that from any canadian in politics or coffee shops
i think obama took that debate but he was weak in his counter-offence to mccain...i think he was trying to take the high road...obama would have done a better job of that by apologizing to mccain for taking the low road on negative campaigning
That debate left a bad taste in my mouth. The word...dirty, comes to mind.
I gotta give it up to McCain though, in my opinion he came out looking much more like a leader. Maybe it was an off night for Obama? Though I think Obama nailed him in the past 2 debates.
W.e, I still don't think it's going to change much, I'm pretty damn sure the debate changed no one's minds, maybe only a few undecided voters here and there. I think Obama has this election in the bag.
This person exposed Obama's tax plan for what it really is and probably cost him this election. Way to go Joe!:thumbsup:
Have a good one!:s4:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Psycho4Bud
yeah, that's much better than 'let them eat cake'
1st Debate: Obama bulldozed McCain.. Obama Victory
2nd Debate: WTF was this.. both sides sucked and the moderator was lame. It's like he didn't care to be there.
3rd Debate: McCain seriously laid down a can of whoop ass.. In addition to this he explained why Obama's plans wouldn't work.. compared them to his own; brought up Obama's record or lack there of.. compared it to his own. Got in some jabs in the process. I have to admit McCain was really on fire last night and Obama seemed to be off his game.
Quite a few times Obama looked like he was at a loss for words.
I don't know though if it was enough to turn the tide of the election. Currently it's a 3-5 point race. Which is VERY close.. I think over the course of the next few days it will really start to sink into people the things that were brought up.
In addition if McCain can keep this going for the next 3 weeks then he definitely stands a chance. This is the platform and aggressiveness he should've used after Obama won the Democratic Nomination.
Although I would've liked to see Bill Ayers brought up more.. through the use of a repetitive question to really drive the point home. I would've liked to seen infanticide brought up a little bit more aggressively, there were a few things I would've liked to seen on McCains side, but all in all I thought it was a good debate for him.
I liked the fact that he pointed out that Obama doesn't actually say or commit to anything in his words.. that they are just elegant and well spoken.
Also I felt that the Moderator this round asked some serious questions and wasn't as much of a pansey/pushover like the previous 2.
ps: Did anyone else think that McCain looked like he took some happy pills? LOL. He just looked so cheery and sassy. like a little school boy.
I think, overall, Obama came off better than McCain in the debate. It was still a bit of a disappointment though. McCain needed a decisive win to regain some ground, whereas Obama needed to be cautious and well reasoned in order to maintain the lead that he has without taking any real risks. Obama did just that, but no more - he was being cautious, too cautious for his supporters who watched in annoyance as he made no move for the jugular. It did seem obvious that Obama was debating McCain, whereas McCain time and again was debating a straw man - not actually responding to his opponent but arguing against his campaign's mischaracterizations of Obama's platform and positions. That came across in the debate pretty clearly, a CBS poll of undecided voters had Obama as the winner at 53% compared to McCain at 22%. CNN's poll was also for Obama at 58% to 31%. There was, however, no clear knockout moment. This leaves the McCain campaign with a couple weeks to try to swiftboat Obama - throw out charges and accusations hoping that there won't be enough time to debunk or answer the charges and hoping that they will be sensational enough to get significant coverage in the media - this is why we are seeing things like the silly Acorn tactic being used now. Their hope is that there won't be time for people to figure out who Acorn is, what Obama's involvement with them was, and what exactly they are accused of. Anyone remember Dukakis being slammed for being a "Card Carrying Member of the ACLU"?
I guess most people don't know how to read body language. As an avid poker player who makes a decent amount of money yearly on the game.. Obama appeared very frustrated throughout most of the debate.
A very frequently used quote...it's a myth though, she never said that. Or did not mean it in that sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherbozo
Anyway, though the debate did not tide well for Obama, I don't think it cost him the election as suggested...I think it was a big loss on his part, the most important debate as well. It may be more close now, but I still think Obama will pull ahead...we shall see though.
Agreed.. I don't think it lost him the election; but it put him into a position to where he *could* lose the election. Something that previously was a guaranteed win.Quote:
Originally Posted by bobthenuker
It will be tight/close from here on out. The truth is no one will know until election day.
Phoned in polls really don't mean much as the demographic sampling is uncontrolled.Quote:
Originally Posted by maladroit
:thumbsup:
Wait for the Rasmussen and Zogby polls that will reflect this debate in a few days.
Unfortunately i only caught the last 35 minutes of the debate. I saw no clear winner in that time. I definitely saw how my bias shaped the way i perceived things. Here's a few examples.
McCain was smirking the whole time. Big difference between a beady eyed smirk, and a smile of disbelief. He looked unhinged on a few occasions. especially during the abortion question, at one point he was visibly about to blow his top...that is scary to ME.
As far as Obama he seemed overly careful and unsure of himself. As if he was not certain what tactic to take. He also seemed to get stuck on his thoughts at times. Though he showed a calmness much more desirable for in a president, at least for this fan of ANTI WAR policy.
the CBS poll was solid and i think the CNN poll was too:
This CBS News poll was conducted online by Knowledge Networks among a nationwide random sample of 638 uncommitted voters - voters who donā??t yet know who they will vote for, or who have chosen a candidate but may still change their minds - who have agreed to watch the debate. Knowledge Networks, a market and public policy research firm based in Menlo Park, CA, conducted the web poll among a sample of adult members of its panel, who are provided web access if they don't already have it. More technical information is available at Additional Information about KN for Reviewers.
This is a scientifically representative poll of uncommitted votersā?? reaction to the presidential debate. The margin of sampling error could be plus or minus 4 percentage points for results based on the entire sample.
mccain has anger management issues (not the right temperment for control of nuclear weapons)
McClatchy Washington Bureau | 09/07/2008 | McCain's history of hot temper raises concerns
I agree, it seemed McCain was a bit more on point, more aggresive this time around. But then, I barely remember it because I was taking bong rips the whole time with my buddy, and then we said "Fuck the debate" at 10 because new South Park was on. Woo!
Clean-up in aisle 3.....all the garbage is gone.:thumbsup:
Have a good one!:jointsmile:
Hmmm... Looks like "Joe the Plumber" is getting more attention than he wished.
Joseph Wurzelbacher - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The guys story is falling apart.
Not that I really feel sorry for a plumber that makes a $ 250,000.00 a year when teachers make less than 1/4 that, but hey.... I'm just sayin'
Say it isn't so Joe!! **WINK** **WINK**Quote:
Originally Posted by happiestmferoutthere
Sorry...... I couldn't resist!;)
I don't read body language well. What does it mean when Pokerface McCain's eyebrows shoot up, down, up, down, up, down in rapid succession, then he blink, blink, blink, blink, blinks, then his eyes dart left and right, he takes a huge breath and puffs out his cheeks, grimaces and laughs. What the hell does it mean? He has the wierdest facial contortions of anyone I have ever seen!Quote:
Originally Posted by daihashi
And what does this mean? Is this a poker tell of some kind?:
Didn't McCain say something about how he was gonna "Lick Obama in the dabate?"
Remember when Bush snuck up on German Chancellor Merkel and freaked her out by massaging her back? What if McCain did this to her? We'd probably go to War with Germany! Is that what we want? Can we risk it?
Joe the plumber only represents 5% of Americans who would be taxed and they make 250,000 a year anyway, no sympathy from me, they're trying to make it appear Obama is 'crushing the american dream' absolute garbage. Obama will cut taxes for 95% of Americans, who are middle and lower class, the people who make more can afford to pay more. Oil companies it's time to use your land or lose your land. I think Obama won that debate and every debate because i think his policies are superior. Why hasn't Mccain talked more about helping people in to college? Because he called these people 'interest groups' they are the future! His health plan is flawed, the average health insurance bill is 12,000 Obama said, well how is that 5000 gonna help, it's a deficit of 7,000. About Obamas record and voting present, he explained that well in the roe v wade section which i won't repeat. Mcangry got pissed about being like Bush, but it's his record, 4 out of 5 of the last economic policies voted for and foreign policies he supported bush. I'm very optimistic for the future of America if Obama wins. Vote Obama 08 :D
Why should small business get a break? Who do you think is going to absorb the final cost of tax increases to the oil companies and the rest of businesses that would take this tax hit? THE CONSUMER that's who!Quote:
Originally Posted by Reefer Rogue
Hey small business making lets say $300,000; your taxes will increase and after that you'll be required to get into this socialist health care system for all employees. NOW create some jobs after the hit. Makes perfect sense to me.
Under Obama's "college plan" he'll give a kick for education but these people have to do a certain amount of time in a national service program after graduation. VERY NICE, we get to pay for ANOTHER government agency to moderate and enforce this.
You want big government? Don't bitch when Uncle Sam wants to play daddy and dictate what you can or cannot do with your life.
Have a good one!:s4:
Where have YOU been the last 8 years? Big government is preeeeeeetty standard after 9/11, and we practically BEGGED for it in the name of national security.Quote:
Originally Posted by Psycho4Bud
Quote:
Originally Posted by Psycho4Bud
first off oil companies have made more money in 1 quarter than over many many years. so they deserve to pay higher taxes, hell oil is trading around low 70's a barrel and were still paying $3 a gallon, but when oil is 150 a barrel its $4 a barrel, those profits are fraudulent gains
as for healthcare, bush and the republicans have made it harder to get healthcare, and prices have rised. and on top of that mccain wants to put an extra 5000 TAX ON YOU, and that tax on healthcare has never been there,
as far as your big government comment, look at your beloved party that has illegally stepped around the constitution and put illegal laws in place
i think its funny how there are so many attacks against politics from both sides, but 1 side in paticular attacks and complains and just runs back to the republicans and theres abunch attacking both sides and being labeled as democrats. its complete nonsense on how blind people are
and by the way
IM NOT VOTING FOR A DEM OR REP BECAUSE THEY ARE THE PROBLEM WITH POLITICS IN AMERICA
By Andrea Hopkins
CINCINNATI (Reuters) - After Republican John McCain and Democrat Barack Obama made him into the most famous plumber in America, it turns out Joe Wurzelbacher isn't a licensed plumber after all. Oh, and his real name is Sam.
The morning after he emerged as the unexpected star of Wednesday evening's U.S. presidential debate, Samuel "Joe" Wurzelbacher of Holland, Ohio, found himself at the center of a media frenzy, with reporters camped out on his front lawn and his phone ringing off the hook.
But it wasn't long before the Association of Plumbers, Steamfitters and Service Mechanics revealed that Wurzelbacher was not a licensed member of their trade.
"That means that he has not completed the training program necessary for him to sit for a license test," said Tony Herrera, market recovery specialist for Plumbers and Steamfitters Local 50 in Toledo, Ohio.
"It's a shame that this guy has ended up in this situation because it seems like he's misrepresented himself -- and for that matter the plumbing and pipefitting industry."
Without a license, Wurzelbacher cannot practice in the city of Toledo but can work for someone with a master's license or in outlying areas that do not require a license, Herrera said.
Wurzelbacher, 34, listed in the phone directory as Samuel, did not answer his phone and his voicemail box appeared to be full. Reporters at his home said he had driven away.
Wurzelbacher has become a darling of conservatives for attacking Obama's tax policies but he has declined to say who he will vote for in the November 4 election.
Honestly the articles attacking Joe the Plumber are pretty dumb. Regardless of his licensing status.. it does not change the validity of the question that was posed. Which was the TRUE importance that Joe the Plumber played.Quote:
Originally Posted by chongman420
With that said.. Go get a valid license Joe and his boss! :thumbsup:
He also owes $1182.98 in back taxes to the state of Ohio.
And as far as buying the business that he works for?
Nope, "Joe" is broke - he isnt' buying any business, but if he did - he still wouldn't see a tax increase because the business doesn't see a NET PROFIT of anywhere near 250k a year. So good news, Joe, your taxes will go down just like the rest of us non-Bently driving slobs.
But let's entertain Joe's fantasy for a moment - maybe Joe will win the lottery and use it to buy the business, and maybe now that he's a celeberity business will pick up and actually see $250k profit per year.... want to guess how much President Obama's tax plan is going to cost Joe? Between $0 and $900.00....
That's right, the huge burdon of extra taxes that is going to hold Joe back and keep him from buying the business will be at worst $900.... which aparently will just cripple poor Joe who is trying to scrape by on a meer $250,000.00 per year....
Aparently McCamp vetted Joe just about as well as they did Palin :-) Thanks, Joe!
The big winner in all of this (Other than Obama, of course): Joe the Plumber - an actual business that may or may not be owned by an actual Joe that has gotten a lot of free advertisement out of the deal.
Again.. does this change the validity of the question that Joe Posed that is now on the minds of small business owners across America.Quote:
Originally Posted by IAmKowalski
Everyone who is jumping on this guy is missing the point of the question he asked. Yes Joe doesn't have a valid license.. yes joe owes back taxes... but it doesn't change the question that Joe asked.
Focus on something other than what the media is spoon feeding us.
and show me where you got the $0 - $900 figure; I'm interested in seeing that because I don't buy that for a second.
Ummm.. that would be a yes. If Joe claims that he will be unable to buy the business because his taxes will go up too much, (which is exactly the claim that first he, and then McCain made) then yes it obviously blows their argument to hell when you find out that the most he will be cost is $900.00 a year.
Combine that with the fact that there is no way that the business actually brings in anywhere near enough to NET $250,000 which means that if anything the business will see LOWER taxes, then yes it very clearly does sink any validity that his question and McCain's argument had.
Last I checked Obama plans a 3% tax increase over the current tax rate.. 33%.
33% on 250k = 82k in taxes
36% on 250k = 90k in taxes.
That's a pretty decent tax increase.. doesn't look like 900 to me
Again.. you are missing the point of the question posed.. which was the importance of Joe the Plumber. People are singling him out when his question applies to a number of other small business owners.Quote:
Originally Posted by IAmKowalski
Look at the question and not Joe. Even if Joe owes 100k in back taxes it does not change the validity of the question asked.. which is what is important in relation to Joe..
Joe himself is just some guy on the street I could care less about, but the question he asked is applicable to many other people who are small business owners.
Again you miss the point and are fixated on a person who's honestly irrelevant in this election; what was relevant was the question he asked Obama.
ps: Joe never said it made 250k.. he said he would like to grow it to 250k or more and wanted to know how that would effect him. To which Obama said he would "spread the wealth".
You don't understand: It's a higher rate (3% higher) on income above $250,000.00 not a higher rate on every dollar earned by people earning over $250,000.00/year... get it?
------------------------
While this income would put Mr. Wurzelbacher above the threshold where he could expect to pay higher taxes under Senator Obama's tax plan, the increase in his tax bill would be relatively modest. Under Senator Obama's plan, the tax on income above $250,000 would increase by 3 percentage points from 33 percent to 36 percent. This means that Mr. Wurzelbacher could expect to see his tax bill rise by between $0-$900, assuming that this plumbing business would be his entire taxable income. If he has additional taxable income, then he would see a larger increase in his taxes.
Joe did say 250k, actually he said it made as much as $280k. The video is online if you want to check.
Fine.. let's use your equation for someone who makes slightly more than 250k.. we'll use 300k as this is a reasonable number (keep in mind some small businesses make millions and employee a handful of people with high salaries).Quote:
Originally Posted by IAmKowalski
so 250k * 33% = 82500
50k * 36% = 18000
for a grand total of 100,500
under current tax rates that's a 1,500 difference.
Now in reality; your local corner store probably makes about 250k if it's in a busy area.. and you see this is not a very large business.
However another example of a small business that actually employs a number of people would be a small construction company.. which may have a revenue of 1 million..
so
250k * 33% = 82,500
750k * 36% = 270,000
Grand total of 352,500
vs
330k under current tax plans.
Keep in mind that it is very expensive to run a business. If you've ever run one then you can attest to how rapidly the costs add up; in addition you need a money buffer in case of emergencies. Enough to be able to last you through at least 1 year of business.
There are certain write offs; but fact is that the amount of tax goes up exponentially. Believe it or not a LARGE portion of small businesses make beyond the 250k mark.
Touche.. just watched it and you're right.Quote:
Originally Posted by IAmKowalski
Still doesn't change the validity of his question.
Good, now we're getting closer - now remember that it is not gross income which is taxed, it is net profit. So does it still really bothers you that 5% of the public who earn more than $250,000 a year might see a small hike in their taxes? And what about the other 95% who have more money to spend at places like that corner store you mentioned? How do you think that effects the bottom line over the course of a year?
Well yea... the question has already been found invalid. And you're right, whether Joe claimed $250k or not doesn't make it valid :-)Quote:
Originally Posted by daihashi
Also... examples of small businesses people may not think of when they think of small business
Private Doctor
Independant Lawyer
Dentist
Construction Companies
Apartment Owners
Used Car dealers
Independant Grocery Stores (there are some large ones out there as big as the retail stores).
A/C & Heat repair (big business where I live)
Bars (very big business and the overhead is not as much as you'd like to think)
Resturants
Landscaping services (also a lot of money in this industry)
etc etc
I get the sense when people think of small business they think of the laundry mat; or your local corner store, or dollar store.
Small business generates a LOT of money; and helps employ a great deal of people.