Should I get a Nutramist fogger?

I've always wanted to try fogging, since it is the absolute best way to give your roots oxygen. The results are supposed to surpass common aeroponics and NFT. I'm ready to re-do my spray system, since that's not really aeroponics, and it gets plugged up. Upon researching pump sizes and what all is required for true misting, I'm better off buying a fogger. I guess the new thing is to combine fogging with NFT, but due to power outages I'm considering combining it with a shallow res for the last 2 inches roots.

Has anyone compared the cheapo ultrasonic foggers to the Nutramist foggers? Do they get plugged up, are they hard to clean, do they need special "non-chunky" nutrients? Any comments regarding true fogging for a method of feeding would be much appreciated. There doesn't seem to be a lot of info about it.

Nutramist Ultrasonic Foggers For Hydroponics, Horticulture, Propagation, Foliar Feeding, Greenhouse And Grow Room Humidification An Pesticide Application:

thanks

http://www.hhydro.com/nutramist_fogger_instructions.pdf

Wow, talk about the popularity of the fog feed technique. The boards and this thread are going crazy.

Well even if I'm the only one, I'm about ready to take the plunge dad gummit. I've been saying for years that the key to huge healthy plants is plenty of oxygen in the rhizome. You'll see, you'll all be sorry. No wait, I didn't mean that. Please somebody stop me. I'm just about to order a single head fog module and get serious about this. I've found that the cheapo ones for fountain effects and stuff do not do the job as well. The whole point of FFT AKA Fog Feed Technique is to make a dry fog, which is water droplets under 5 micron. The bigger the droplet the less readily it is uptook (uptaken?) and larger droplets are really just like spraying. The cheapo ones make droplets from 10-50 micron, and are not designed to shatter nutrients.

NUTRAMIST Single Head Fog Module @ FUTUREGARDEN.COM

I love talking to myself.

http://www.hhydro.com/nutramist_garden_instructions.pdf

I'm still watchin Opie .
Crispi :jointsmile:

Keep the dream alive and stuff. More coming soon hopefully. Maybe a fogging log.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Opie Yutts

Keep the dream alive and stuff. More coming soon hopefully. Maybe a fogging log.

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That'd be awesome, I've never seen a grow log for that method.... yet

Hey Opie;

I checked out the Nutramist Fogger,and was not too impressed once I saw it in person. It is based on a pond fogger, and you could build a better one yourself, and a lot cheaper.

I'm currently building a frankenfogger machine called "Fogfognugen" because it will use two types of fog. 1) dry ultra-sonic fog produced by a Frapaplas Fogger and 2) a wet fog produced using impengment mister nozzles and a 150psi pump.

You can check out my build and see other experimenters of fog at:
Fogponics Online.

Check out page 58 of the new High Times, named Fogponics and the Dominaero machine they make, the best new growing technique.

PS: I also have a picture of the TI Smartlamp over there.

that link you posted said the nutramist fogger is $25. why go for the cheepo version? how much cheaper do they get? or how much can they cost.

if this has applications in cloning, that might be interesting (or atleast a good way to get off the ground.)

hey. if you dont do this, i might give it a shot.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by joedirte

hey. if you dont do this, i might give it a shot.

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Oh I'm doing it. The fog generators are supposed to be here in 2 days, and I lay awake all night thinking about design.

I've been doing some reading that these fog generators add a bunch of heat to the reservoir. My initial plan was to have 2 reservoirs, and the fogger in the one with the plants. Now I may actually build a small unit like the $300 nutramist models, thinking that the separate reservoir like they have might solve the heat issue. I don't think the fog will remain hot once it travels through the hose up to the plants, but if anyone has input on this I would certainly appreciate it. It would be much easier to simply put the fogger in with the roots.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by oldmac

I'm currently building a frankenfogger machine called "Fogfognugen" because it will use two types of fog. 1) dry ultra-sonic fog produced by a Frapaplas Fogger and 2) a wet fog produced using impengment mister nozzles and a 150psi pump.

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Thanks for dropping by.

Perhaps you could help me on the 2 types of fog though. How often are you planning on running the nozzles? It kinda seems like they would wash down the roots, thus defeating the purpose of the dry fog. I would expect no real improvement in the amount of fine root hairs you would normally get with dry fog, and I thought wet fogs produced roughly the same results as spraying. The whole point of fogging is to produce 5 micron droplets so that the roots get loads of air with their food and drink.

Also my understanding about misting and pumps is that for a true mist (something like 50 micron droplets) you'll need a 1000 psi, not 150. That and clogging is why I gave it up.

I'm new to fog research, so please correct me where I'm wrong.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by oldmac

You can check out my build and see other experimenters of fog at:
Fogponics Online.

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Well I'd love to see it, but even after finding your thread and signing up so I can see the pictures, they won't let me see them. After thanking me for logging in, I get taken to a page that tells me I'm not logged in.

Any chance you could post some photos here? Or even links to photos?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by oldmac

Fogponics Online.
Check out page 58 of the new High Times, named Fogponics and the Dominaero machine they make, the best new growing technique.

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I feel like an idiot today, but I can't figure out how to work the High Times site. Even after searching and getting a link to the article you talk about, it just takes me to the list of this year's issues.

Or were you talking about a physical copy of High Times? The nearest one is 2 hours of driving at 13 mpg, and mail is out of the question.

Dad gummit, we need those photos, STAT!

Here's some darn nice rooting using fogponics:

Picasa Web Albums - Jesse - root progress...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Opie Yutts

Here's some darn nice rooting using fogponics:

Picasa Web Albums - Jesse - root progress...

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I wonder how fast -n- hairy cuttings / clones get compared to these seed sprouts ? A homemade fog cloner might be in our near future here .
Crispi :stoned:

Not sure but that guy said it was a tomato seed. I learned in medical marijuana class that if you have talk about conditions for plants but don't want to say the M word, then talk about tomatoes, since they have very similar needs and desires.

I'm thinking I might just drop a unit in my cheapo aero cloner, but not turn it on until some roots begin to show. Still worried about heat though. I'm not going to spend $450 on an aquarium chiller for my cheapo cloner, which already works pretty well.

OPie, im still waiting on your log. come on bro. im so excited to see this

That's no shit Opie ,
I never thought of the heat involved . :stoned:
I have a lil cloner like yours BTW , Reaper pirated your design , and I stole it from him . Works good even for popin seeds . :thumbsup:
Crispi :jointsmile:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Opie Yutts

Wow, talk about the popularity of the fog feed technique. The boards and this thread are going crazy.

Well even if I'm the only one, I'm about ready to take the plunge dad gummit. I've been saying for years that the key to huge healthy plants is plenty of oxygen in the rhizome. You'll see, you'll all be sorry. No wait, I didn't mean that. Please somebody stop me. I'm just about to order a single head fog module and get serious about this. I've found that the cheapo ones for fountain effects and stuff do not do the job as well. The whole point of FFT AKA Fog Feed Technique is to make a dry fog, which is water droplets under 5 micron. The bigger the droplet the less readily it is uptook (uptaken?) and larger droplets are really just like spraying. The cheapo ones make droplets from 10-50 micron, and are not designed to shatter nutrients.

NUTRAMIST Single Head Fog Module @ FUTUREGARDEN.COM

I love talking to myself.

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5 microns, 'ey?
Who knew?
I was just about to yank a fogger from my koi pond.
You just saved me time and trouble.

You jus' keep talkin to yourself, brah.
Good t'ings comin' from dat!:)

A hi ha,
Weezard

Opie;

Sorry to hear abt the trouble gettting into fogponics, I'll post some pics here for you and others. Give the other a try again tho, I'll let John the webmaster know.
BTW the pics above you show in blackstar collars labeled Jesse, is JesseJames who owns Fogponics. (NebulaWest)

Most of the inexpensive foggers are based on "pond foggers" which is fine. Just make sure you get the bouy with it; it is designed to take the ultra-sonic head and float in water. It is the easiest way to keep the water level correct for the head. Also you really need to go to 3-head or more to fill most good size grow chambers, unless you go individual 1-head unit per single plant grow bucket.

Let me introduce you to a frankenfogger machine known as "Fogfognugen"

Uses two types of fog:

1)ultra-sonic dry fog from a Frapaplas Fogger from Plastique Frapa inc
cost is $629 canadian, duty free NAFTA, be prepared to give fed ID # or personnel SS#, you lucky americans.

2)Bete Nozzles PJ-12 impingement nozzle with .012 orifice beatin against a pin size obstruction

I calculate the Frapa running abt 10mins every 1/2 hr, and the pressure misters 3-5 seconds (depending on system pressurization time) every 1/2 hr.

Here are a few pics.

Here's some pics of the plastic.
2- 4'X4' grow trays and lids. 138 plant site each side 276 Total.

Mister nozzles are plumbed in the lid, fog thru large pvc pipe.
note the cool "root gurards" for fog inlet....oldmac's root spa!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Opie Yutts

Thanks for dropping by.

Perhaps you could help me on the 2 types of fog though. How often are you planning on running the nozzles? It kinda seems like they would wash down the roots, thus defeating the purpose of the dry fog. I would expect no real improvement in the amount of fine root hairs you would normally get with dry fog, and I thought wet fogs produced roughly the same results as spraying. The whole point of fogging is to produce 5 micron droplets so that the roots get loads of air with their food and drink.

Also my understanding about misting and pumps is that for a true mist (something like 50 micron droplets) you'll need a 1000 psi, not 150. That and clogging is why I gave it up.

I'm new to fog research, so please correct me where I'm wrong.

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Just realized I did not cover this all.
The reason for two systems is redundancy. High value crop, why take chances? Either system will keep plants going, so if one system goes tits up, no panic.
I've seen, in person, demonstrations of both sytems before. The original Frapa fogger was designed in Isreal (where I saw It) and was later made under parternship with Canadian plastics mfg. It's a true 5micron or less fog.
Ain't cheap.
Mister Nozzle's like Bete, produce "some" sub-5 micron, but the majority of the fog or mist is 5-50 micron. Natural fog is said to be abt 30 (your micron's my vary)

You said it above Opie: The fine delicate roots love oxygenated moisture (and even co2) but there are also larger/longer tap roots that like drinking water. Figure give them a drink of wet fog.

As to clogs, first if you use a pond fogger, change the transducers right away. Second be very carefull with what you use.(no olivia's!)
I'm pushing things with the nozzles I'm using, orifice is just .012. Key here is good filtration before pump...I'm using a 5 micron sediment filter. BTW, these brass nozzle's are probably overkill, they cost 13.50 each in a lot of 36. I'm using 8per tray, 16per fogfognugen, and I will be building two. Also, I'll be running very light nutrient solutions, abt 20% and I plan to utilize more foliar feeding (for various reasons).

The proposed schedule is Frapa fogger 10 mins on (@10min after the hour and 1/2 hr) every 30 mins. 24 hrs a day, don't want roots to dry out during dark period, even if they are not feeding.
Mister nozzles 3-5 seconds every half hour(on the hour and 1/2 hr) on photocell=only when lights are on. Photocell in cycle timer syncs with other timer, when lights come on.

So for example start at 7:00pm lights come on, first event is mister pump for 3-5sec. !0 mins later Frapa starts, runs 10mins and stops. 7:30 mister pump, 10 mins later etc etc.

Here's a place with various size foggers, maybe give you some ideas. Those small size room humidifer's are not too expensive and could hold promise. Plus they have pond foggers up the wazoo. Mainland Mart factory outlet and wholesale supplier

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Opie Yutts

Wow, talk about the popularity of the fog feed technique. The boards and this thread are going crazy.

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Wow Opie you are right. Everyone jumping in at the same time. hehe

I love talking to myself.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, and you got me doing it now.

You know, maybe you should have started it in "Advance Tech".....

........I know I would have seen it sooner.

Yeah, let's keep the good ideas alive.

Wow!

Dude!

Wow!

Weeze

They say your not crazy if you talk to yourself; it's when you start answering back when you need to start to worry... lol... I guess I need to start to worry cuz I'm always answering my own rambles..

I too am interested in fogponics Haven't lost sleep over it like you Opie but I know what you mean ... My brain is always running about projects I'd love to get goin in the CULTIVATION STATION.. I'll definitly be subscribing to this thread...

Thanx for your posts too Opie, I've learned alot by lurking as you and the usual suspects help others in their adventures in this great hobby... After being a dirty boi I think h20 is the way 2 gro, indoors at least...although I'd like to try hydro outdoor from seed some day go for size..
But fogponics is definitly the future, And I'd love to bear witness to the revolution...

Later D:S5:

Thanks very much to everyone who's stopping by. I'm glad to see others are interested in fog. And oldmac, wow, thank you for taking the time to share your knowledge and photos. I'm going to read that more carefully when I'm more awake, but for now I've got to get this posted and get to bed.

The fog units came today and Iâ??m doing a little testing. I planned on putting one in a veg res and one in a bud res, but I have doubts that one singe-head unit will be enough. Iâ??m hoping to get away with putting a unit or two in the chamber with the roots instead of building a little pumping machine like the $300 Nutramist thing. As I mentioned though, Iâ??m worried about temperature, and I think a separate pumping machine would solve the heat issue.

So some things Iâ??m testing are:
1) Will it make fog rise 14 inches above it an a largish container.
2) Will it fill up a container enough to make fog spill out an opening in the top.
3) Amount of time needed to fill up a container.
4) Temperature swing in reservoir.

I made a float for it from some packing that came with my T-5 fixture. The fogger is sitting in a 3â?� net pot. I had to cut a lip in the circle to get the fogger low enough for the proper amount of liquid to cover the sensor. The sensor is supposed to be 1-2 cm below the surface which is roughly 3/8-3/4 inch. The unit shuts off if the water gets too low.

The first thing I tested was fog output at various water levels above the sensor. I assumed that the closer the surface was to the sensor the greater the fog output would be, but I was wrong. I wasnâ??t being scientific or anything. Iâ??m just going by what I perceived, and it seems like thereâ??s a little more fog when the water level is closer to 2 cm rather than 1 cm or less.

I didnâ??t realize it would splash so much. You could put a couple of these in a small cheapo aerocloner and you wouldnâ??t have to use air stones for the bubbles. Iâ??m seriously thinking about trying this. Iâ??ve read several places that fogging alone is not really good for rooting cuttings until they show some roots. The dry fog just doesnâ??t keep em moist enough. If I recall correctly though, the people that have been saying this have been pumping their fog into the chamber instead of leaving a unit splashing in the res. If I did this, once the clones take root I would like a way to lower the res level or stop the splashing on the roots somehow. Seems like the splashing would defeat the purpose of a dry fog.

Iâ??m testing in an 8 gallon container with about 1.5 gal of water, but the ones I plan on using in the grow are more than 3 times that size. Does this mean that it will take more than 3 times as long to fill up the bigger containers with fog, or does it mean Iâ??m kinda silly for not just testing in the final container? For now Iâ??m going to play dumb and assume the bigger container will eventually fill up.

One thing I found out pretty quick is that you donâ??t want to have the cord positioned directly above the transducer (the water smasher disk-shaped thingee). I know, duh, but it just didnâ??t dawn on me until I noticed that not much fog was coming out for some reason. The instant I moved it I noticed an increase in fog production.

Iâ??ve been running this thing now for 1 1/2 hr and Iâ??m done for tonight. By the time I get this posted it will be my birthday. Iâ??m a bit surprised and pleased about the temperature. The res was 84 degrees at the start and only went up to 86. Not too shabby, maybe we can handle it, especially since the res will be recalculating and the test was not. I wonder if it would be safe to assume that for each head added to a situation like this you could expect an increase of 2 degrees. One thing I had not thought about before was the fact that the transformer will add heat to the grow as well. A 3 head unit may have an advantage in this department. I can probably keep it outside of at least the flowering area, but at the end the transformer was 121 degrees. Hmmm, do you think I could wire one transformer to run 2 or more units?

These photos are a time lapse from ignition to one minute.

These photos are at 8, 15, 30, 60 and 90 minutes. I never really noticed much of a change after one hour. Will it fill up a 29 gallon tub in 3 hours? The good news is the container appears to be mostly filled up. I never really saw fog coming from the lid that was closed except for a tiny crack. Once the lid was open though the fog rolled out a bit.

I know, wow, a lid. Well these photos show the progression and they are also taken at 8, 15, 30, 60 and 90 minutes.

Comments please. Goodnight.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Opie Yutts

maybe we can handle it, especially since the res will be recalculating and the test was not.

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Uh, recirculating that is.

Opie said;
"Hmmm, do you think I could wire one transformer to run 2 or more units?"

Probably, they use standard wallwarts.
And they may be shippng the same one that they ship with the fountain foggers which also support an LED display.
But if it's running that hot...
Just look on the mandatory label for the max current rating and divide by two. ;)
Then check the modules appetite.

Doubt that a small voltage drop would cause 'em to drop out of oscillation.
Don't know enough about how they work, yet, to guess if it would affect droplet size.
If so, it's a "feature". Makes 'em tunable.
Love the float.:thumbsup: Gonna steal it.

Regards
Weeze

Hey oldmac, I was wondering about those root guards. Are those the round things in the photo that look like smoke detectors? I was thinking about this problem too. Do those do a good job of keeping roots out? Also you may know about something else I was wondering, does the transducer kill roots if they get too close? And if so, how close is too close?

Maybe I missed it, but did you say how often the misting nozzles would be on? Did you get a chance to think about my question regarding them washing down the roots? I was wondering if this would defeat the effects of dry fog, or maybe lessen the effects, since the roots would be getting less air.

I understand the redundancy idea. Along those lines I was thinking about frequent power outages (something about being at the end of the line), and of course I can't have my roots sitting in nothing but air for 8 hours. To solve that and other issues I thought of being able to adjust the level of the reservoir that the roots are in. I would keep only the bottom inch or 2 of roots in water at all times. There is another reservoir so that the root res can recirculate, oh I don't know, maybe for 2 minutes out of every 15. Of course there would be air stones in both, and probably a powerhead in the 2nd res. So what do you think of that redundancy idea? The large tap roots have all the nutrients they want, yet the others never get washed down and should grow to be very fine and hairy.

What did you think of my test. The container filled up pretty well, but maybe I should use 2 units in my veg res and a 3-head unit in my flower res. It would be great though if I could get away with 1 unit in veg and 2 in flower.

Anyways, I certainly appreciate you stopping by. Anything you choose to answer or talk about would be wonderful.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Weezard

Doubt that a small voltage drop would cause 'em to drop out of oscillation.
Don't know enough about how they work, yet, to guess if it would affect droplet size.

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Thanks Weeze, maybe I see another test coming.

De nada.
I owe ya for my education.

About burning the roots.
I have a fogger in my koi pond.
When the Lilly pads float across the emitter it burns track in them.
Here's a snap of a lilly pad that got in it's way.:(
Sliced it like a laser.

Does not seem to bother the guppies.:)
Bet the little stoners are suckin' on the blue lotus rootlets.:D

Mebee try a bold experiment.
Finger dat fogger!
If you finger no like, roots no like.

Keep talkin' to yo'sef.
Lotta lurkers listnin'.:)

Regards

WZ

Thanks for that photo, and wow, I didn't realize the damage it could do. Maybe I'm a sissy but I've been reluctant to stick my finger near the transducer. People say it hurts, but what is pain anyway? Is it real? It's just electrical impulses. That can't be real horrible. Besides, pain is such a rush. It let's you know you're alive. I was certainly alive when I slid the throttle cable under my thumbnail. OK, so back to work on the weed guard for my fogger.

mmmm, Blue Lotis. Have you consumed that perfectly legal plant?

Opie;

Really nice experiment! For only a single head unit you got pretty good output. You could have saved your self some "rube goldberg" building of a float if you bought a bouy. Consider it when you go to a three head unit, get it with the bouy, it gives you automatic water depth for the transducer. Which you should change to the teflon coated ones, they do not clog up so easy.

Most builders of pond foggers, that use a resevoir, say that the fog tends "lay" on the water and most use some sort of fan to push or pull the fog to the top of the lid. I considered the use of plastic tube hooked to a vacum pump to raise it.

As to my system, and the possible wash down issue, we need to looked at what others have come up with. The Dominaero as a grow machine uses both aeroponic spiners and 3 head pond fogger for ultra-sonic fog. The Ultra Mist applied to their grow system is an Ebb & Flow with a three head ultra-sonic fog pumped in separately. No one is really using ultra-sonic fog on it's own.
I simply made my reduntant system one notch down the evolution chain to aeroponics (pressure mister system).

The pressure mister system on my machine is calculated to run 3-6 seconds (every 1/2hr). The actual time is dependent on the time it takes to pressurize the sytem after turn on. Most of these systems are set-up as "pressurized" systems and the flow to the nozzles is controlled by soleniod, where I'm using the "turn the pump on" method.

The root guards are "inlet suction spa covers" and I used them because I'm inroducing fog towards the bottom of the grow tray, plus they looked so cool.

Hey WZ,

I can't believe what the pond fogger can do to the water lillies!

Even better idea on how to test the temp of that sucka'.
That is really an issue I had not considered with pond foggers.

Those nutramist foggers are crap, I bought one for some house plants, and it worked great, till the water ran low, It has a sensor that is supposed to shut it off when this happens. However it did not and it burnt out. I boaught the cheap ones off of ebay for 15 bucks each and those still work. The nutramist was like 45 dollars and it broke ina week or so and they didnt wana exchange it or nuthin. I would say go with the cheaper versions that have replacement parts and stuff. Ebay hass em for realy cheap.....


And the foggers ocilate at sub sonic speeds that is what does the dsamage not temperature, do not stick your finger in the disk, it is irratating then hurts then painfull. Basicaly you are demoliculizing your finger so dont do it, I know some one who held his finger in ther for a long time, now he has no feeling in that finger forever..

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MadSativa

Those nutramist foggers are crap, I bought one for some house plants, and it worked great, till the water ran low, It has a sensor that is supposed to shut it off when this happens. However it did not and it burnt out. I boaught the cheap ones off of ebay for 15 bucks each and those still work. The nutramist was like 45 dollars and it broke ina week or so and they didnt wana exchange it or nuthin. I would say go with the cheaper versions that have replacement parts and stuff. Ebay hass em for realy cheap.....


And the foggers ocilate at sub sonic speeds that is what does the dsamage not temperature, do not stick your finger in the disk, it is irratating then hurts then painfull. Basicaly you are demoliculizing your finger so dont do it, I know some one who held his finger in ther for a long time, now he has no feeling in that finger forever..

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I'm sure you meant to type supersonic.
And, the "Poke 'em witta finger", was a joke of course.
Dat sucker would emulsify your manual digit!

Was about to buy one till I read your post.
$45?! :wtf:!

But, as he said earlier. The El-cheapos droplet size exceeds 5 microns.
Above 5 microns I'd save some dough and use a mister instead.
They clog on occasion, but they don't fry.:)

For me, this is all still theory.
In practice, I just drop in 2 airstones and a small, submarine, water pump in a wastebasket.
Don't even use a mister with the Bubbaponics units.
Just jam the 1/4" water hoses in the sides of the net-pot and let 'er drip.
Works well, so far...
When I get a few jars of meds ahead, I'll work on points for style.;)

Thanks for the input, made me think.

Weezard

"In theory, theory and practice are the same.
In practice, they are not!"