The monster called self-importance
Why does people makes war, steal, lie, kill, betray, etc? If you were to point one reason that explained all the evils of mankind, what it would be?
For me, it seems this reason is called self-importance. That feeling that we, our wishes, desires and needs are more important that everybodys else.
Take the wars, for example. The usual reasons for war is when two (or more) nations wants the same thing (like oil, or land, or ideological/religious supremacy, etc). Then each nation thinks that it is more important that the other one(s), and that their own wishes are enough to justify to kill everyone who doesnt agree with it. Each nation thinks that they are the only important one, and the only one who needs oil, or land, or whatever, and they make war. And, what was the reason for the war? Self-importance.
The same thing goes to people who steals. They think that they need the thing they stealed more than its owner, so they steal. It also goes for people who kills, or lies, etc. All this evils can be tracked down to the self-importance.
Today the world is suffering from pollution, and climate changes... why people would destroy the very place they live upon? Cause they think its worth. They think earth was made for their own use (and abuse), and that they have the right to exploit it recklessly, only for the satisfying of their consumist/capitalist egoist desires. What is only other name for self-importance.
And its not only in this "great" matters that we can see the self-importance in action. Even here in this forums its a pretty usual thing. From times to times we see some people engaged in flame wars, pissfests, or trolls trolling around... why they act this way? Because they think only their own opinion is the right one, and everybodys else is crap. They think they are the only important ones, and that everybody else should agree with them.
Why people feels ofended? Because they feel they are so important that they cant afford to be disagreed, or called names, or whatever. Feeling ofended is only possible when one feels very important.
I dont remember where, but once i read that the most spoken word in english is "I"... i think it has something to say about how important we usually feel...
And this list could go on and on... almost every evil, every problem, every bad thing about persons or the makind can be tracked down to the self-importance. Its the mankinds and also every persons downfall.
Also, being self-important makes us vulnerable, predictable and weak. Why does flattery works so well? Why does telling some choosen words (that dont need to be true) usually ensures that almost every person will agree or be more favourable to us? Because flattery feeds the self-importance. So, whenever you want to control someone, to make someone bend down to your own wishes, flattering it usually works. In other words, most people can be controlled by flattery, or anything else which feed their own self importance. So we can easily see as having self-importance weakens one, and makes it more vulnerable.
One of the most striking example of it is women who likes rich or powerful or famous men. This men will do anything to be seem together with a beautiful woman, including giving her everything she want (sometimes this women can bring down a rich man to poverty) only for the pleasure of being seen with her, because it boosts his self-importance.
Also, self-importance makes us predictable. When we want to know how any people will act, we only need to think what they would do to maximize their own gains. As most people thinks this way, its very easy to predict how anyone will act. And being predictable is not strategically good, cause it makes us easier to be controlled.
And it makes us controlable. When we are bound to do anything to feed our self-importance, its easy to control us.
Who haves not self-importance is not vulnerable to such things. Self-importance is like a weight that makes us pinned down to the ground.
So, if someone wants to be free, to be over this things, one must lose its self-importance. One must realize that we are only one person among 6 billion of persons, and that we are not better than anyone. One must also realize that all of us will die, and so everything we are will some day turn to nothing. How many kings and emperors (who surely felt very important) lived, and now we dont even know it? They could think they were even gods, but now they are only dust. So what was the advantage in being so self-important?
The real wisdom only can be reached when we realize that we all are one, and nobody is more important that anybody else. When we realize this, we learn that cooperation is always better than competition, and that being unselfish is better than being selfish. The most wise and enlightened ones were also the most humble ones, cause they knew this. The real saints were the ones who were ready to die but incapable to kill. And thats why they were saints.
Self-importance is a monster that controls most of us, and decieves us in such ways that we think we are in control and we are only being proud or honoured or righteous. But we are in fact only being controlled by it. When we think we are feeding our ego, we are only feeding this monster, that takes greater control over our lifes.
Losing self-importance and thus being really free is very hard, but it is one of the greatest acomplisments a person can do. But as its hard most people just gives up and lives chained by this until their death comes, and then death, with its merciless touch, takes us and all our self-importance, and then we go back to the dust, that is where we are from, that is what we are, and that is what we will turn to when our time were up.
The monster called self-importance
The monster called self-importance
Waaaaiiit a minute Coelho, are you Buddha? :D
But in all seriousness, I think what you're talking about is ego-death, or at least ego-deflation. I couldn't agree with your post more, and it's a damn excellent one! :thumbsup:
I referrence Buddha because this is essentially what he was saying too; that the attainment of enilghtenment results in the "extinction of self" (ego), and it will result in infinite compassion for all life. "Life is suffering" doesn't mean it should be suffering, or that it inevitably will be suffering; but simply that suffering is the defining characteristic of all living beings, the universal factor that we all have to deal with no matter how hard we try to avoid it.
Why do I bring this up? Because suffering (and on the inverse, having everything given to you) is the food for the ego. It is experienced more directly and more intimately within yourself than anybody else, and thus so long as your ego remains strong, deep down you'll believe that your suffering is the only true real suffering. For this reason, I think empathy is the most important aspect of the human condition for the benefit of the overall human species. It's an utterly remarkable psycho-ability, almost like a primitive form of psychic power. Really, just think about it; everything we feel and experience gives feedback as to our own suffering and pleasures. Empathy is the only internal feeling that allows us to experience the external feelings.
So it would rightly follow that when one achieves the extinction of the ego-self, ones empathy would go through the roof and we would be able to experience and grasp other's suffering as much as our own. Could you imagine a world where we all had such developed minds? Suddenly wars, thievery, murder, and just schoolyard bullying wouldn't be so casually done. Actually I'm not sure any of these things would happen at all. We might actually understand how and why the other person is where they are.
I'm not sure how you can teach the whole of humanity, or at least a whole lot more of it, how to develop a keen sense of empathy though. Lately the opposite seems to be happening, and IMO the prime example is how disrespectful and downright nasty kids are getting these days. My younger brother is only 5 years my junior, and already I can see how much more terrible kids of his generation are than kids of my generation. And my generation was freakin' horrible! News stories abound about this issue as we've seen a rise in a total bullying pandemic (wait, would that be an "epidemic" considering the lack of known cause?). I know there's wars, there's murders, there's genocides all more terrible than this, but somehow bullying seems like the core of the issue. It's how all these non-empathetic human beings start out; torturing other students and getting a kick out of it. Little bastards will tease, beat, and humiliate the weaker ones 'till total nervous breakdown, and actually get a kick out of their reactions! Then when one of 'em finally snaps and shoots the place up, or kills themselves, it's all their fault.
And you know, I don't think we'd need half the drugs any of us are on, if we all lived in an empathetic society. When I was in grades 6 and 7 I got bullied horribly. My grades were all F's and D's, and the docs thought I needed to be put on Ritalin to help me concentrate. Helped, but just barely. Then halfway through grade seven my parents transferred me to a Christian school where the kids actually helped and supported each other. The ciriculum was WAY more intensive, yet I literally jumped to strait-A's in every course. This to me says that a supportive environment, not a competetive and agressive one, is far more conductive to success. If we could somehow apply such an environment to work, government, foreign policy, and anything else, we'd all be a lot better off. (no I don't mean to sound like a total "just love each other" hippie, I know there are many evil folk out there beyond redemption who just need a good ass-kickin').
The monster called self-importance
Good Posts Above ! Its nice to see that the Budhist way of thinking making it into these forums sometimes :)
I have been trying to live these Ideals for many years. It can be quite a challenge to not become frustrated with the deeds of people sometimes ;)
But as soon as you open your eyes wider, and look just a little deeper, maybe you can understand what makes them 'tick', what their pain might be, ... just a subtle yet deeper understanding of WHY things are the way they are.
Some people have a longer way to go is all. You end up feeling bad for others pains, but you all so need to accept that you cant 'Fix' everyone, thats not why you're there. Just try and show compassion, as much as you can..which is hard when you have some A**hole yelling at you
...thats where , hopefully, the THC can take over, and get you through those times that are challenging to the soul ;)
peace
JJ
The monster called self-importance
Empathy... yes, that is a great thing. It's one of the few good qualities I've been able to develop. Still haven't perfected it, but at least I am pointed in the wrong direction...
Sympathy, on the other hand, is what you'll find more of in the world. I view it as the evil twin of empathy. Empathy is totally understanding how someone feels, but sympathy is trying to assimilate the feeling from the one who is suffering. Sympathy feeds the ego. Another person's suffering can not be taken or copied to become your own suffering - that would fall into the category of coveting. Each person's suffering is unique, even if the same event causes their sufferings, total sympathy is not even possible.... it is a path to the dark side.
Cooperation instead of competition. Hell yeah!
But what's to stop people from saying "I bet I can cooperate better than YOU can!" Competitive drive will weed it's way into any situation.... that damn instinctive survival of the fittest crap.... the internal competition between higher and lower cognitive brain functions. Maybe we should feed our ego's equally with positive cooperative input to force the good frontal lobe to override the desire for competition? We're still a stone's throw away from living in caves, we gotta do something to ensure the dominiance of our higher brain or else we'll be fighting forever with each other.
The monster called self-importance
I cant focus long enough to read all this but im def. bookmarking it and checkin it later, I know you guys'll have great points
The monster called self-importance
Another thing that bugs me about people's obsession with self-importance: death rituals.
Too many people have an unhealthy obsession dealing with dead bodies... pumping it full of chemicals, adding makeup, dressing them up nice, putting them on display, burying them in a box that costs thousands of dollars, and erecting a tombstone to serve as a mini-monument to the deceased.
Am I the only one that finds that to be extremely psychotic and disturbing?
People will argue that the funeral ceremony is for grieving... what a joke! Sure, people will grieve AT a funeral but all that crap isn't necessary for healthy grieving. Or, it's to honor their memory... why not do that while they're still alive; honoring a rotting corpse is freaky.
Organ donation should be made mandatory. Helping others in need is more important than any self-righteous religious/cultural doctrines that say we can't dismember a corpse. If the extremists still won't budge, let them have their preserved bodies while the rest of humanity evolves.
Cremation is a decent way to go.
Natural burial's better, it gives back to the earth, keeping the soil rich.
Cannibalism isn't a bad thing as long as you don't eat nervous tissue - why can't people get over their insane self-importance trip to legalize consumption of healthy flesh from the recently deceased?
How about killing 3 birds with one stoner: donate organs, use healthy flesh for food, use what's left over for compost.
The monster called self-importance
Ha I breezed over this title and I thought it said
"The Monster That Is Self - Impotence"!!!!
:S2:
Ha wow, I apologize
The monster called self-importance
ai coelho blz,manda aquela resceita de brigadeiro em portugues,valeu.
The monster called self-importance
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coelho
Each nation thinks that they are the only important one, and the only one who needs oil, or land, or whatever, and they make war. And, what was the reason for the war? Self-importance.
Well when it comes down to it, if any nation thought some other nation's needs were more important than their nation's needs, that wouldnt be a very strong nation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coelho
The same thing goes to people who steals. They think that they need the thing they stealed more than its owner, so they steal. It also goes for people who kills, or lies, etc. All this evils can be tracked down to the self-importance.
In some cases I believe there are scenarios when a thief may need something more than their victim. Morality aside, the beggar probably needs a wallet full of money more than the guy who gets wasted at his country club every night.
I was going to respond to more of your post, but eh. The point I just wanted to make is that maybe this natural urge of self importance is part of our nature. Your idea that self importance could be the cause of evils in the world is an interesting one, but that is just like saying humans are the cause of evils in the world. That is most likely true, because we are pretty much the only species with a sense of morality strong enough to label some acts or thoughts as evil and others as good.
The monster called self-importance
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coelho
Why people feels ofended? Because they feel they are so important that they cant afford to be disagreed, or called names, or whatever. Feeling ofended is only possible when one feels very important.
While I am guilty of self-importance I do feel offended by being disagreed with sometimes but I am working on it. I also think though that some people may be offended not because they think they're better and their ego is taking a beating.. but maybe because they feel de-humanized and less important then everyone else? They feel offended because they know everyone is equal but the person who is calling them names is making them feel less equal or inadequit (sp?)
Other then that little tidbit I definatly know what your talking about and I totally agree. It's time we all took a step off our 'high horse' and realize we're all walking on the same ground so-to-speek, no ones floating above anyone else or wearing a golden halo. We're all the same.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GreenDestiny
How about killing 3 birds with one stoner: donate organs, use healthy flesh for food, use what's left over for compost.
Hmm.. this could change a lot of things in the world. Although it may take time for people to mentally accept that they are eating other people but why not? We are definatly a large supply/food source that doesn't look to be decreasing any time soon. Not to mention (well okay you already did) all those healthy extra organs that can be given to those in need. And what evers left.. grow some vegtables in it or something.. we decompose back into the earth anyways.. im sure the left over nutrients must be able to help plants grow.
anyways good suggestions:thumbsup:
The monster called self-importance
:)
Quote:
Originally Posted by GreenDestiny
Another thing that bugs me about people's obsession with self-importance: death rituals.
Too many people have an unhealthy obsession dealing with dead bodies... pumping it full of chemicals, adding makeup, dressing them up nice, putting them on display, burying them in a box that costs thousands of dollars, and erecting a tombstone to serve as a mini-monument to the deceased.
Am I the only one that finds that to be extremely psychotic and disturbing?
People will argue that the funeral ceremony is for grieving... what a joke! Sure, people will grieve AT a funeral but all that crap isn't necessary for healthy grieving. Or, it's to honor their memory... why not do that while they're still alive; honoring a rotting corpse is freaky.
Organ donation should be made mandatory. Helping others in need is more important than any self-righteous religious/cultural doctrines that say we can't dismember a corpse. If the extremists still won't budge, let them have their preserved bodies while the rest of humanity evolves.
Cremation is a decent way to go.
Natural burial's better, it gives back to the earth, keeping the soil rich.
Cannibalism isn't a bad thing as long as you don't eat nervous tissue - why can't people get over their insane self-importance trip to legalize consumption of healthy flesh from the recently deceased?
How about killing 3 birds with one stoner: donate organs, use healthy flesh for food, use what's left over for compost.
That's a modest proposal
The monster called self-importance
Quote:
Originally Posted by GreenDestiny
Sympathy, on the other hand, is what you'll find more of in the world. I view it as the evil twin of empathy. Empathy is totally understanding how someone feels, but sympathy is trying to assimilate the feeling from the one who is suffering. Sympathy feeds the ego. Another person's suffering can not be taken or copied to become your own suffering - that would fall into the category of coveting. Each person's suffering is unique, even if the same event causes their sufferings, total sympathy is not even possible.... it is a path to the dark side.
This is one of the wisest observations I have ever seen posted here.
And the concept of pity falls into this as well. By pitying someone, you hold yourself above them; the act of charity due to pity implies a feeling or knowledge that one has power over the well-being of another, and I feel it is profoundly insulting to the person being pitied.
And your noting that cooperation can itself become corrupted into competition- that, my dear Destiny, explains the wholesale failure of so many communal living experiments.
The monster called self-importance
So you are basically saying we shouldn't help anyone out? How can you give to someone if you don't think they need it(sympathy)?
The monster called self-importance
Re-read. Not saying that at all. One can help out others from empathy instead, which is understanding the situation and doing what's right.
The monster called self-importance
Empathy is kinda the same in that you make a clear distinction that you are better off then someone else and are giving to them because you feel that they need it more then you. No matter if you understand the situation or not, giving to someone is basically the same as saying you are better off then them. In not such direct words of course.
The monster called self-importance
I'd make the distinction that empathy is an acknowledgement that where one person is better off, so is the community- that your struggle IS my struggle.
The monster called self-importance
Quote:
Originally Posted by GreenDestiny
Sympathy, on the other hand, is what you'll find more of in the world. I view it as the evil twin of empathy. Empathy is totally understanding how someone feels, but sympathy is trying to assimilate the feeling from the one who is suffering. Sympathy feeds the ego. Another person's suffering can not be taken or copied to become your own suffering - that would fall into the category of coveting. Each person's suffering is unique, even if the same event causes their sufferings, total sympathy is not even possible.... it is a path to the dark side.
really? You think sympathy is the path to the dark side? Sympathy is what leads to action. While I agree that empathy is really important and a great skill to cultivate, I don't think you can really say that sympathy is evil. When you feel sympathetic for someone, that is because their situation causes you to have negative feelings for yourself. You will than do what you can to relieve your own negative feelings by either leaving the situation or helping the person you feel sympathetic towards, because if you help them it will help you.
When you feel empathetic towards someone, you are (like you said) really understanding how they feel. You are "putting yourself in their shoes". You are feeling what they feel. Depending on your view of the world, empathy may lead to action (if you believe people are capable of doing something for other strictly for altruistic reasons) or empathy plus sympathy will to action (if you believe all of an individuals actions serve to bring some sort of benefit to the individual).
Quote:
Originally Posted by GreenDestiny
We're still a stone's throw away from living in caves, we gotta do something to ensure the dominiance of our higher brain or else we'll be fighting forever with each other.
Might as well start combat training now.
The monster called self-importance
Quote:
Originally Posted by 40oz
really? You think sympathy is the path to the dark side? Sympathy is what leads to action. While I agree that empathy is really important and a great skill to cultivate, I don't think you can really say that sympathy is evil. When you feel sympathetic for someone, that is because their situation causes you to have negative feelings for yourself. You will than do what you can to relieve your own negative feelings by either leaving the situation or helping the person you feel sympathetic towards, because if you help them it will help you.
When you feel empathetic towards someone, you are (like you said) really understanding how they feel. You are "putting yourself in their shoes". You are feeling what they feel. Depending on your view of the world, empathy may lead to action (if you believe people are capable of doing something for other strictly for altruistic reasons) or empathy plus sympathy will to action (if you believe all of an individuals actions serve to bring some sort of benefit to the individual).
Might as well start combat training now.
While sympathy is not evil (in my opinion) I do believe that it is not genuine; which I believe is what is meant when the term "evil" is used. Because any actions you take due to sympathy are just to satisfy yourself. Even if someone else benefits from it, you're initial step to action was because you felt bad for someone first, not because you genuinely wanted to help them first.
Sympathy can be said to be related to selfishness.. even if good does come out of it, it was only initiated because of selfishness even if they are seemingly innocent.
The monster called self-importance
Quote:
Originally Posted by daihashi
Sympathy can be said to be related to selfishness.. even if good does come out of it, it was only initiated because of selfishness even if they are seemingly innocent.
Please tell me you've read The Fountainhead!
The monster called self-importance
Quote:
Originally Posted by daihashi
Even if someone else benefits from it, you're initial step to action was because you felt bad for someone first, not because you genuinely wanted to help them first.
Sympathy can be said to be related to selfishness.. even if good does come out of it, it was only initiated because of selfishness even if they are seemingly innocent.
I could argue that all actions are preformed in some way for selfish reasons. If doing something for yourself is evil, than every person in the world is a demon. Think of everything you do in a day, can you say you did something that gave you no benefit whatsoever? Everything you do, even altruistic actions feed the ego somehow, so why bother calling sympathy evil or not genuine?
The monster called self-importance
Quote:
Originally Posted by 40oz
I could argue that all actions are preformed in some way for selfish reasons. If doing something for yourself is evil, than every person in the world is a demon. Think of everything you do in a day, can you say you did something that gave you no benefit whatsoever? Everything you do, even altruistic actions feed the ego somehow, so why bother calling sympathy evil or not genuine?
I admit I do tend to throw around the word "evil" a bit too much. Not genuine would be better. Or non harmonious. But yeah since it does start with how you yourself feels, and any pity you feel (thanks Stinky for chiming in with the extra bit about pity) it becomes a selfish act to remedy the feeling of sympathy followed by a feeling of accomplishment for what you've done (pride!)
Yes, I think we're all guilty of doing things for our own benefit. Maybe there's no escaping it, and competition is the fundamental basis of all life. We're each competing with ourself, trying to improve on imperfections, satisfying desires, etc.
But if we didn't take care of ourselves FIRST, not much would ever get done. We'd totally fail as a species and another form of life will become dominant. What's that cliche saying, something like "if you can't love yourself first, how can you love someone else?"
I can argue almost anything from both sides too, damn the Libra in me lol, it all boils down to efficiency, balance, order. Harmony. I've given advice to many people telling them to be more selfish, they seemed to be spreading themselves too thin trying to please everyone around them and forgetting about their own happiness. Self-importance may be the reason why any of us are here today.
The monster called self-importance
Quote:
Originally Posted by GreenDestiny
...it becomes a selfish act to remedy the feeling of sympathy followed by a feeling of accomplishment for what you've done (pride!)...
EXACTLY!!! This is what ultimately destroys Catherine Toohey at teh end of The Fountianhead- she's given no more than a quick mention in the Wiki writeup of the novel, but I feel that she is a very important character. Read up on the Ellsworth Toohey character, who uses the pity/guilt-action-pride chain of events over and over manipulateively throughout the novel. The Fountainhead - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Quote:
Originally Posted by GreenDestiny
I can argue almost anything from both sides too, damn the Libra in me lol, it all boils down to efficiency, balance, order. Harmony.
As you should be able to in order to maintain a balance in your own life! It is a gift that not everyone enjoys.
