First time, having problems

Here is my situation:

Closet setup, am using a HID florescent ballast for the growth phase then will switch to a HPS bulb for flowering.

I have been running the florescent setup 24/7 for a little more than a month now. Plants are beginning to reach a foot tall.

Started the seeds directly in standard "kegger" red cups which i cut holes in the bottom for drainage. I will be transplanting to a 6" pot once the plants start to show gender. (will also switch to HPS 12/12 at this point)

I have used no fertilizer in the plants as of yet, as this is my first grow and I want to make the situation as simple as possible before I learn to "tweak" mother nature.

Problem:

My middle and lower leafs are starting to curl together (imagine holding your hand out, palm up, and touching your pinkie to your thumb) and are starting to turn yellow and brown and now have become brittle and are breaking off when touched. Tops of the plants are a heathy looking dark green and are still growing well (other than some tip burning when I don't move the lights often enough or reset them to close to the plants) secondary leafs/shoots were fine at first, but now are beginning to brown at the tips.

Is this a nutrient deficiency? (Which one, whats a good product to use to fix)

Should I get larger pots and transplant now? If not when?

Anything else that is/could be causing this?

What is the soil? Have you given any nutes?

You can't run a HPS bulp in a flourescent ballast. The bulb and ballast MUST match. Otherwise it is at best going to kill the bulb or shorten ballast life, and at worst, start a fire.

I am using basic top soil that I bought at Home Depot. I have not used any nutrients, just basic tap water that I have allowed to sit out 2-3 days before using.

I have separate ballasts for the florescent and HPS bulbs.

Can't tell you anything about lighting (except I hope you don't burn your house down) but good luck to you in trying to grow foot sized plants in a beer cup.......or even a six inch container.

Sounds like you have a fair amount of studying to do. At this point at a foot high you should be putting them in two gallon pots.

Thank you for the advise on the pots, Weedhound.

Do you think that the amount of space for the roots is what is causing the issues with my lower leaves? Do you believe that is the only issue based on the information I have provided? Other than changing the pots what advise would you have for me at this state?

Plants are now between 10 and 12 inches tall (From top of soil) is this a good time to kill the lights for a day and force them to show their sex? What height/characteristics should I look for to know when to switch to my HPS set up?

I'm currently studying to be an electrical engineer so burning down the house by using the wrong wiring/lights/ballasts is not a concern of mine.

Well not burning your house down is a basic rule in growing.

Stinky is the soil wizard here.....she's the one that taught me that you should have a gallon of soil per foot of stem......and yes I do think that this your problem and a transplant into larger containers will help.....if not solve....the issue.

Plants need root room.......and if your roots aint happy your plant aint happy......it's easy to forget them since they aren't what you look at in a plant but believe me they are the MOST important of all.

Treat them nicely. ;)

http://boards.cannabis.com/basic-gro...ency-baby.html


I love this thread and since following it I've been having pretty darn good success in soil these days......(I usually grow hydro)

I currently have 6 plants started and was going to wait until sexing them to switch them to 5 gallon buckets and only have 2 at that point.

Is a foot tall a good time to force flower the plants or should I just switch them to larger pots and let them vegetate longer?

They will double and triple in size during flowering.......got a good tall ceiling right?

That thread of Stinky's should help you decide......I've had MUCH BETTER success with Stinky's method of transplanting several times vs once and would DEFINITELY recommend several transplants for yours.

My plants grew better, faster, healther roots, and just plain became bigger, larger, and healthier plants imo with transplanting into several containers vs just one.

Awesome, thanks for the help.

I'm going to go get some new pots now and will switch them today. I think ill let them vegetate for another couple weeks (or 2 feet tall which ever is first) I have an 8 foot ceiling where I will do the flowering, so I would think that a 6 foot plant would be good.

right and make sure you have room between the plants and the light so they don't burn at the tips from being too close......otherwise good to go.

Do consider what size footprint your HPS will give off......with six foot plants you'll need about 1000 watts to penetrate down and reach the bottom of your plants. That's a lot of depth for your light to get through.

Lose the 'top soil'. It generally contains far too much clay for indoor use, and will suffocate your roots with its heaviness and water retention.
Try promix, compost with perlite, or even MG Organic with extra perlite. You need that soil LIGHT LIGHT LIGHT! And re-pot into SLIGHTLY larger pots every ~6 weeks or so to stay ahead of potential soil problems.

Ok - Heres the update.

Got 6 2.5 Gallon pots, filled the bottom with about an inch of gravel to help with drainage, then got some extra soil (which thankfully to the advise of stinky) which was very light and fluffy. Got the pots filled with a little less than 2 gallons of dirt (loosely packed) this was defiantly a (hopefully the) problem, as the roots were actually formed into a root ball which I broke while transplanting so they could start growing out again.

When I looked at the spacing with the new larger pots, I didnt think that my florescent setup would be strong enough (4 T-5 bulbs, about 100 watts total) so I switched over the HPS and will just run it 24/7 for a month or till 2 feet tall.

Here are my new set of questions:

My HPS set up is 600 Watts, will this be enough for vegetative growth for the 6 plants? Keep in mind, I only plan on flowering 2 of them fully.

How far should I keep the HPS light from the tops of the plants? I have read a lot of things on the internet but much prefer the expertise I am finding here.

Previously I had been watering the plants till I saw water come out of the cup bottoms. How much water is good for these now? (please answer in per day or week measurements)

Any other advise that you would recommend?

Actually, I advise switching to flower sooner. Here's why.
Your HPS600 is going to penetrate the canopy in only a limited way; once you pass that, you are putting on wood unnecessarily. If you want to veg longer, I strongly suggest training your plants so that they grow rather flat and low, and the light penetration is to MORE of the overall mass of the plant.

Gravel in the pot is not necessary. Info for next time. Light soil with perlite, and large drain holes, are all you really need.

Light distance- totally depends on a lot of things; bring the light as close as you can before you hand held palm-down at the canopy level feels warm but not uncomfortably so. Or if you see the edges of the higher leaves curling subtly but sharply upwards, raise the light. And remember that air movement is very important!

I can't give you # of gallons per week either; totally depends on your plants, conditions, soil, humidity, all that junk. To runoff is totally fine as long as you are giving ample food and letting the pots dry out a bit between waterings.

Um.. that's it I think? If I missed anything... post up!:D

Edit: What do you have against tan? It's an overlooked little function, with a low self-esteem, and offended that you left it out!

How long would you recommend letting vegetative go for?

originally this screen name was to look like:

d/dx sin(x) = cos(x)dx

Using tan, I would have had to involve secant.... try explaining secant to someone who knows nothing about trig.

Yea, im a math dork.....

You're in the best hands with the Stinkster. :thumbsup:

Good luck.

Yea, I'm noticing from reading some of her previous posts/threads she has this down to as close of a science as it can be.

Don't worry though, Weedhound, Ill be barking up your tree once I make the change to hydroponic.

I'll let you both know in the next couple of days how the plants are responding.

Should I expect to see a slow in growth over the next few days while the plants grow the root systems to catch up to the size of the plant?

Immediately after a transplant you MIGHT see slightly slower growth while the roots figure out HEY! WE HAVE MORE ROOM! WOOT WOOT. and then BAM! off they go.

You should expect to veg until:
a) the plant is 1/3 the size at which you would like it to finish flowering
b) it is sexually mature, indicated by alternating, rather than opposite, node placement

...ya dork! (I'm a lab geek; I feel your pain!)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ddxsinxcosxdx

Awesome, thanks for the help.

I'm going to go get some new pots now and will switch them today. I think ill let them vegetate for another couple weeks (or 2 feet tall which ever is first) I have an 8 foot ceiling where I will do the flowering, so I would think that a 6 foot plant would be good.

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A couple of theing to keep in mind:
...the effective light from the 600 will only extend down a few (3 or 4) feet from the source. Undergrowth will die-off a bit.
...sativa dominant strains generally stretch more than indica doms.

When trying to determine how tall you ultimately want your ladies, don't forget to add the size (height) of your growlight, (a foot or so) the 'buffer zone' between lights and canopy top, (another foot or two) and a foot or so for the pot.

That's 4ft. of vertical space needed, not counting the plants. In an eight foot tall room, that leaves room enough for about a 4 foot plant. Any taller, and you'll quickly run out of headroom.

Good news - Not getting any more leafs turning yellow/brown

At this point should I prune off the dead leafs to allow light to better penetrate?

I was thinking about topping my plants, whats a good time to do that?

Ok, things are looking good (at least to me) for the most part... However I have 2 plants that are showing some signs of distress...

One is drooping and the other looks like it has some type of burn.... I dont think its light related since there are other plants that are closer to the light and are not having this problem. Here are a few pics.

The first 2 are the same plant that I think has the nutrient problem the third is the drooping one.

A good rule to remember is NOT to prune things......plants USE all the stored nutes, minerals etc in those ugly leaves so if you yank them you do two things.....

1. You set the plant back by forcing it to now concentrate on healing from all those leaves you just yanked instead of growing so it's wastes both time and the plant's energy in an unnecessary way....not to mention stressing it's immune system as well.

2. The moment you yank them the plant will immediately start pulling nutes from the next set of nice green leaves since whatever problem it has is still there and you'll be in exactly the same boat......with less plant as well.

Have you checked the ph of your water and your soil runoff?

Haven't checked the water going in or coming out...

Will the basic pool testers work?

yes (liquid test?) or aquarium ph testers you can buy at your local pet store. I'm not at all sure if this is the issue or not.......hydro growers love ph and we cherish knowing it.

Things like underwatering, overwatering, heat stress, too many nutes and root disease issues can all cause a plant to wilt badly so it's pretty hard to say.

Ps....DONT use pool OR pet ph ADJUSTERS to change ph......fish ph up and down is too high in salts and I would seriously doubt anything you'd put in your pool would be something you'd want to use in growing.

You can use distilled white vinegar to lower ph and baking soda to raise it.....in an emergency only. You want ph between 6.2-6.8, going both in and out.

I'm asking about ph because of what appears to de a def in the one plant.....with the yellow edges.......but could be the wilted plant's problem as well.....although I have a feelng that the two issues are seperate.

Good luck.

PH was 8.4 according to the freshwater fish take test strips I got.

This is water that I have had sit out for 2-3 days roughly and I use old (rinsed out) 2 Liter pop bottles to let it sit in.

I assume 8.4 is a bit of a problem. How much of what should I add to it to make it the right range?

I didnt test drain water since I figure this will be an issue.

Yes, you're right it's a bit of a problem, but is this the same water you have been using all along? Perhaps sittiing out lowers your ph (although it really shouldn't have too much effect on ph itself) or the soil you've been using has good ph buffers in it. Or....or ...or.....

You really need Stinky here.......you're getting out of my knowledge range in soil in a hurry. I would go ahead and check runoff ph......see if your soil is buffering things at all or not.....and Stinky should be back in the morning to help you. I'd hate to give advice I'm not sure of because I think you recently DID transplant to fresh soil didn't you? i really don't want to make things worse here.

I had the same thought (about water sitting out and changing the PH) so I tested the tap water as fresh as I can get it.

I transplanted about 5 days ago. I will water and test runoff for the "issue" plants now.

Thanks again.

Runoff water came in at 6.8

I would guess that means the PH of my soil is in like the 5.2 range.... way to low.... how do I get it up?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Weedhound

Yes, you're right it's a bit of a problem, but is this the same water you have been using all along? Perhaps sittiing out lowers your ph (although it really shouldn't have too much effect on ph itself) or the soil you've been using has good ph buffers in it. Or....or ...or.....

You really need Stinky here.......you're getting out of my knowledge range in soil in a hurry. I would go ahead and check runoff ph......see if your soil is buffering things at all or not.....and Stinky should be back in the morning to help you. I'd hate to give advice I'm not sure of because I think you recently DID transplant to fresh soil didn't you? i really don't want to make things worse here.

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Aloha, Math guy

WH Knows of whence he speaks. If he says wait for Stinky, pull up a chair.
You are in good hands here.

Two little t'ings though. :twocents:
Checkin' da PH onna way in is a good idea:),
so, while you're checkin' ,check da runoff too.

I'm guessin' you store da water to let Chlorine dissapate?
Dependin' where you live, most water suppliers now use chloramine. Chlorine dissapates, chloramine does not and will kill fish.
Was not sure if the stuff they sell for fish tanks was good for da girls, so, scrounged a 55 gal drum and put him under my downspout.
Now use only rainwater for aeroponics
Catchment rainwater is low PH here, (SO2 from Volcano), but after it runs off a stone roof, it's about 7.4.
I mix nutes, then add a few drops of Lemon juice.
Tried white vinegar but every time I did, even in small amounts.
I got a weird slimy black mold in the res.
Switched to Lemon juice. problem went away.
Could be co-inkydink, or the fact that I was using tap water at the time which is also High PH here.
(I t'ink da water guys overmedicate.)
But, that's Hawaii.
State motto? Half-assed is more than good enough.
Dats OK, state attitude is "Maximum pleasure, minimum effort."
But I digress.:)
Where was I?
Oh.
Also, lettin' da water sit allows it to go flat.
I figure, if flat water in a tub drowns roots...

I always half fill a container wit fresh mixed nutes and shake da heck outta it just before I geevum to my dirty girls. (Still got 4 in pots).

Best of luck with your grow, brah.

The Zard who is wee

The ZARD :D is correct about the lemon juice :thumbsup: And quite seriously I think areation can NOT be overdone .....but there are generally things in quality soil that buffer the water so I wouldn't say necessarily your soil is low or TOO low or......might be buffers or.....I just am not soil knowledgable really and Stinky'll be able to whip off the right answer asap.

I use Fox Farm Oceans Forest but only because I'm told to by my hydro man......couldn't even tell you why....just that he said to use this so.....

Do you use a zyme product of any type (for roots?)

How long has the one plant been wilting?

Zard....you are too kind. :giveflower:

Started to wilt before my transplant, so I figured it (dunno yet on that one, so far 2 for 2 on the ones that are showing) was rootbound. Its slowly got worse looking.

I havent used anything on these plants except good old H2O. I want to have a base knowledge of whats going to happen with the plant before I go adding to them. I know its not the best way to get the best stuff for this one, but seeing it grow naturally will help me learn.

Next grow, ill do everything to the "best idea" which will more than likely be what you (weedhound) and Stinky tell me.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ddxsinxcosxdx

Runoff water came in at 6.8

I would guess that means the PH of my soil is in like the 5.2 range.... way to low.... how do I get it up?

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Isn't THAT the perennial question!
You'll want to start watering with nute solution that is slightly elevated. I would not go above about 7.2, and definitely check your runoff numbers again in a couple waterings.
Most people growing plants will never have to woory about chloramine/chlorine; use it right out of the tap and it is fine. If you are concerned, google 'chloramine removal'. It requires activated charcoal, and can actually be done using a largish fish tank filter of the sort that you pack yourself with carbon and polyfill, and hang over the edge of your tank (bucket in this case) and run for a couple days to remove contaminants.

For pH up, use ONLY pH up designed for plants! The pool type is NOT safe for your green friends! Potassium hydroxide works; you don't need much at all.

Thanks stinky. Are you thinking the PH level is whats making my plants wilt and discolor? (pictures on previous page)

I just saw that you are watering at pH 8+. If the runoff os 6.8, your problem may be something else, because that runoff number is correct.
I think your soil is not drying enough, and it's 'top soil' not 'potting soil'. That means it is heavy, and the roots are not getting enough oxygen. You can re-pot, using potting soil that has lots of perlite in it. Try gently chipping a bit of the old soil out- not much, just a bit- before re-planting, and set the root ball in a pot that has potting soil with at least 30% perlite in it to improve drainage. If you put the plants back in the same pots (looks like they are too deep in the pot now so you can do that), knock out the pots really well, and if they have drain trays built in, remove the trays. Get all the old crud out of there.

Just looked at the bag that I used for soil. Its Sta-green potting soil, so I think i'm good there. (I used top soil when I started in cups but got potting soil when I transplanted) It does have fertilizer, .14-.09-.05.

I thought drainage might be a problem, so last night I took the drain pans off and drilled holes in the pots. I drilled holes where the drain pain were and about 1/4 inch above that. I have the plants sitting in collapsible baking pans now, and about a half hour after I watered last night I went and emptied those so there was no extra water sitting around.

Im getting some bricks for the pots to sit on so they dont sit in their run off water anymore (and so I dont have to keep emptying the baking pans)

Any thoughts?

Mine are to wait a longer before watering again, and maybe get an air pump to get the oxygen level of the water up.

Thank you for your wisdom and experience Stinky.

Btw, is there a donation part for this site? I feel like I should contribute back to the community for all the help and knowledge I have gained here. I would offer to send to you and WeedHound directly, but from what I have read, I have a feeling you wouldnt want me to. (let alone giving up your personal information)

Donate your own wisdom when the time comes. It's a never-ending chain of helping!

I think an air pump may be overkill, but if you let your water sit out anyway, and airstone isn't all that bad an idea. MAke sure you check the pH after adding your nutes and before use, and never pre-mix fert solutions.
Good, stagnant water is bad bad bad and the source of a gazillion problems that plague growers.

Got a shopping list of nutes I should have on hand?

Also, is my logic below right....


Right now my water PH is 8.4 and my soil PH is probably somewhere in the low 5 range. The combination of the two is resulting in run off water of 6.8.

As I add more water at 8.4 it will leave some of its alkali properties in the soil, resulting in a higher PH of the soil. The higher soil PH will result in a higher runoff PH.


As this happens, should I be lowering the PH of my water so that I continue to get 6.8 on the runoff?

Oh good Stinskter found this.......I'll follow along just to pick up any info I can myself. SOIL!!!! AGGGGGGG!!! :eek:

New issue..... Fungus... Mushrooms to be specific, not growing on cow poo either :( .

Growing from soil, near the plant but not on it or touching it.

I pulled them, and just threw them away..... Any advise? Are they even a real problem? Is there a chemical to use to get rid of them?

Growing in a basement bathroom. House AC is set at 75 have the bathroom fan on all the time and a fan blowing just above the plants (just so the tops move a little) to circulate air. Bathroom cleaned before starting in there. Cleaned very well.

Likely there's mushroom compost in your soil. I get 'em once in a while, too. It's not unusual. Just pull 'em out, and toss. :thumbsup: