Clark: McCain a hero, but lacks command experience

WASHINGTON (AP) â?? Retired Gen. Wesley Clark, a former Democratic presidential candidate now supporting Barack Obama, said Sunday John McCain's military service does not automatically qualify him to be commander in chief.

Underscoring during a national television appearance a position he has been expressing for several weeks, Clark said performing heroic military service is not a substitute for gaining command experience.

"In the matters of national security policy making, it's a matter of understanding risk," he said on CBS' "Face the Nation." "It's a matter of gauging your opponents and it's a matter of being held accountable. John McCain's never done any of that in his official positions. I certainly honor his service as a prisoner of war. He was a hero to me and to hundreds of thousands and millions of others in the armed forces, as a prisoner of war.

"He has been a voice on the Senate Armed Services Committee and he has traveled all over the world, but he hasn't held executive responsibility," Clark said. "That large squadron in the Navy that he commanded â?? that wasn't a wartime squadron."

Moderator Bob Schieffer, who raised the issue by citing similar remarks Clark has made previously, noted that Obama hadn't had those experiences nor had he ridden in a fighter plane and been shot down. "Well, I don't think riding in a fighter plane and getting shot down is a qualification to be president," Clark replied.

In a March conference call with reporters while he was still backing Hillary Rodham Clinton, Clark said: "Everybody admires John McCain's service as a fighter pilot, his courage as a prisoner of war. There's no issue there. He's a great man and an honorable man. But having served as a fighter pilot â?? and I know my experience as a company commander in Vietnam â?? that doesn't prepare you to be commander in chief in terms of dealing with the national strategic issues that are involved. It may give you a feeling for what the troops are going through in the process, but it doesn't give you the experience first hand of the national strategic issues."

He reiterated that position last week in an article on The Huffington Post Web site.

"If Barack Obama's campaign wants to question John McCain's military service, that's their right," McCain spokesman Brian Rogers said after Clark's appearance Sunday. "But let's please drop the pretense that Barack Obama stands for a new type of politics. The reality is he's proving to be a typical politician who is willing to say anything to get elected, including allowing his campaign surrogates to demean and attack John McCain's military service record."
The Associated Press: Clark: McCain a hero, but lacks command experience

What would be worse than going after McCains age? That's right, his military record! Might be in Obama's best interest to tell Clark to STFU!!

Have a good one!:s4:

wheres the queston of military service. it seems they are giving him prays. their just saying because he was military doesnt make him right for president.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Psycho4Bud

WASHINGTON (AP) â?? Retired Gen. Wesley Clark, a former Democratic presidential candidate now supporting Barack Obama, said Sunday John McCain's military service does not automatically qualify him to be commander in chief.

Underscoring during a national television appearance a position he has been expressing for several weeks, Clark said performing heroic military service is not a substitute for gaining command experience.

"In the matters of national security policy making, it's a matter of understanding risk," he said on CBS' "Face the Nation." "It's a matter of gauging your opponents and it's a matter of being held accountable. John McCain's never done any of that in his official positions. I certainly honor his service as a prisoner of war. He was a hero to me and to hundreds of thousands and millions of others in the armed forces, as a prisoner of war.

"He has been a voice on the Senate Armed Services Committee and he has traveled all over the world, but he hasn't held executive responsibility," Clark said. "That large squadron in the Navy that he commanded â?? that wasn't a wartime squadron."

Moderator Bob Schieffer, who raised the issue by citing similar remarks Clark has made previously, noted that Obama hadn't had those experiences nor had he ridden in a fighter plane and been shot down. "Well, I don't think riding in a fighter plane and getting shot down is a qualification to be president," Clark replied.

In a March conference call with reporters while he was still backing Hillary Rodham Clinton, Clark said: "Everybody admires John McCain's service as a fighter pilot, his courage as a prisoner of war. There's no issue there. He's a great man and an honorable man. But having served as a fighter pilot â?? and I know my experience as a company commander in Vietnam â?? that doesn't prepare you to be commander in chief in terms of dealing with the national strategic issues that are involved. It may give you a feeling for what the troops are going through in the process, but it doesn't give you the experience first hand of the national strategic issues."

He reiterated that position last week in an article on The Huffington Post Web site.

"If Barack Obama's campaign wants to question John McCain's military service, that's their right," McCain spokesman Brian Rogers said after Clark's appearance Sunday. "But let's please drop the pretense that Barack Obama stands for a new type of politics. The reality is he's proving to be a typical politician who is willing to say anything to get elected, including allowing his campaign surrogates to demean and attack John McCain's military service record."
The Associated Press: Clark: McCain a hero, but lacks command experience

What would be worse than going after McCains age? That's right, his military record! Might be in Obama's best interest to tell Clark to STFU!!

Have a good one!:s4:

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I agree. Leave Mccains war record out of this he cant win that way. I respect Mccain and what he gave for this country. His war record should be left alone.:rasta::rastasmoke::pimp:

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Originally Posted by BigWeed

I agree. Leave Mccains war record out of this he cant win that way.

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DAMN BigWeed....this is becoming more of trend as of late.:D

Have a good one!:s4:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Psycho4Bud

What would be worse than going after McCains age? That's right, his military record!

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by BigWeed

I agree. Leave Mccains war record out of this he cant win that way. I respect Mccain and what he gave for this country. His war record should be left alone.:rasta::rastasmoke::pimp:

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How do you guys see this as an attack on McCain's war record? I didn't see where Clark attacked McCain's war record at all. This is what he said about McCain's war record:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Psycho4Bud

"I certainly honor his service as a prisoner of war. He was a hero to me and to hundreds of thousands and millions of others in the armed forces, as a prisoner of war."

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And this:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Psycho4Bud

"Everybody admires John McCain's service as a fighter pilot, his courage as a prisoner of war. There's no issue there. He's a great man and an honorable man."

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Sounds to me like he was praising McCain's war record but questioning how it qualified him to be President, which is a vaild question. I don't see this as a very strong point that Clark was raising, but it's definitely no attack on McCain's war record.

Maybe you saw something I didn't. What in that article did you see as an attack on McCain's war record?

"Well, I don't think riding in a fighter plane and getting shot down is a qualification to be president," Clark replied.

That was a VERY condensending remark about his service to his country. Here's another example on how the left wing is shooting Obama in the foot:

"Getting shot down, tortured and then doing propaganda for the enemy is not command experience," Aravosis wrote in the blog post, titled "Honestly, besides being tortured, what did McCain do to excel in the military?"
Some on left target McCain's war record - Yahoo! News
This is something that the GOP will be licking their chops on for months to come....put down a man that went through hell the way McCain did. So much for that vet vote.

Have a good one!:s4:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Psycho4Bud

"Well, I don't think riding in a fighter plane and getting shot down is a qualification to be president," Clark replied.

That was a VERY condensending remark about his service to his country. Here's another example on how the left wing is shooting Obama in the foot:

"Getting shot down, tortured and then doing propaganda for the enemy is not command experience," Aravosis wrote in the blog post, titled "Honestly, besides being tortured, what did McCain do to excel in the military?"
Some on left target McCain's war record - Yahoo! News
This is something that the GOP will be licking their chops on for months to come....put down a man that went through hell the way McCain did. So much for that vet vote.

Have a good one!:s4:

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as stated clark praised mccain for being a vet

so where is it stated that mccain was attacked

just because he was a war vet doesnt mean hes fit for president. infact both mccain and obama arnt fit for president. their both corrupt ignorant retarted assclowns


and about the vet vote, its funny that ron paul got more military votes than any other candidate even mccain

With this post i really do not wish to offend anyone it is not my intention, But living in the UK i don't rely understand America, what is it with military service, patriotism and such like when the wars America has started are just evil and unnessecerry, your country your goverment locks you up for smoking herb. I really can't see how anyone is proud of america, maybe when it was first formed but not now. And all this land of the free stuff??? the US has the highest incarceration rate in the devoloped world. how is the country free.

I feel nothing for my country i feel no pride nor patriotism, I hate what my country stands for and could happily shit on the union jack. I rely could not careless for patriotism or national pride i don't feel proud when I hear my national anthem Infact i loathe it, it sickens me the queen the old fashioned traditional crap I hate this country and what goes with it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Psycho4Bud

"Well, I don't think riding in a fighter plane and getting shot down is a qualification to be president," Clark replied.

That was a VERY condensending remark about his service to his country.

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Well, I suppose McCain can take it personally if he wants to, but I don't see it as an attack on his war record.

The fact is that the McCain campaign promotes his war service as a reason for him to be president, so they open up the issue. It would not be right to attack his war record, and I do not see that happening in this article. But if his campaign wants to tout his war record as a reason why he is fit for the presidency, then they need to be open to having that reasoning challenged without getting pissy and whiney about it.

The same was true for John Kerry. If someone wanted to question why his war experience made him any more fit for the presidency, then that would have been acceptable. But to question his actual wartime experience was low. Clark is not pulling a Swift Boat-style attack on McCain like what was done to Kerry --- he is questioning why McCain's war experience makes him a better president, which is a fair question.

It's not an attack on his war record nor a condescending comment. Not by a long shot. It was questioning his quals, which is valid and fair in an election year. I think Clark must be lobbying hard for a tap as veep--or trying.

John McCain is said to have one of the most well-developed super-egos on the planet, an assessment repeatedly given to him by military psychiatrists over the years who've followed him for PTSD after the prisoner of war period and which he himself has talked about on frequent occasions.

With that level of overconfidence and the fact that he lacks command experience, which he does, I think his qualifications are a valid concern. To be fair, it's a concern anyone who reads would have on both sides of this election, dems and repubs alike. I want a person who's wise enough to listen to his people at Defense and to the counsel of the joint chiefs and the branch commanders.

we need a president with some Mangerines, or Pouch Potato's

Boy, this is going to be a long election if this is the type of non important stuff they're grabbing at. :beatdeadhorse:
Scotty... beam me up! :abduct:

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Originally Posted by dragonrider

Well, I suppose McCain can take it personally if he wants to, but I don't see it as an attack on his war record.

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Separately, in a statement, Obama spokesman Bill Burton said, "As he's said many times before, Sen. Obama honors and respects Senator McCain's service, and of course he rejects yesterday's statement by Gen. Clark."
Obama rejects Clark comments on McCain and questions about anyone's patriotism - International Herald Tribune

LMAO!! I guess the Obama camp feels a bit differently about the comment than his backers.

Have a good one!:s4:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Psycho4Bud

Separately, in a statement, Obama spokesman Bill Burton said, "As he's said many times before, Sen. Obama honors and respects Senator McCain's service, and of course he rejects yesterday's statement by Gen. Clark."
Obama rejects Clark comments on McCain and questions about anyone's patriotism - International Herald Tribune

LMAO!! I guess the Obama camp feels a bit differently about the comment than his backers.

Have a good one!:s4:

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Looks like Obama is being more polite and defferential than he needs to be.

I still see nothing wrong with Clark saying McCain's extraordinary war record does not necessarily qualify him to be president. Maybe Clark would have run into less "Jeopardy" if he had phrased it in the form of a question: "Everyone admires McCain's war record, but what is it in McCain's war record that qualifies him to be president?"

So what is it?

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Originally Posted by dragonrider

Looks like Obama is being more polite and defferential than he needs to be.

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LOL...what a guy huh? Straight talker and doesn't waiver from what could be an unpopular opinion. The sign of a true leader.

My father had an old saying he liked to use about some people at his old place of employment; if this guy were to shit in the middle of the floor the foreman would look down and say what nice roses that will make. I guess that Clark is a hell of a gardner.

'THE GUY WHO ALMOST STARTED WORLD WAR III'

In Waging Modern War, General Clark wrote about his fury upon learning that Russian peacekeepers had entered the airport at Pristina, Kosovo, before British or American forces. In the article "The guy who almost started World War III," (Aug. 3, 1999), The Guardian (U.K.) wrote, "No sooner are we told by Britain's top generals that the Russians played a crucial role in ending the West's war against Yugoslavia than we learn that if NATO's supreme commander, the American General Wesley Clark, had had his way, British paratroopers would have stormed Pristina airport, threatening to unleash the most frightening crisis with Moscow since the end of the Cold War."

"I'm not going to start the third world war for you," General Sir Mike Jackson, commander of the international KFOR peacekeeping force, is reported to have told Gen. Clark when he refused to accept an order to send assault troops to prevent Russian troops from taking over the airfield of Kosovo's provincial capital. The Times of London reported on 23 May 2001 in an article titled, "Kosovo clash of allied generals," that "General Sir Michael Jackson [was] told that he would have to resign if he refused to obey an order by the American commander of Nato's forces during the Kosovo war to stop the Russians from seizing control of Pristina airport in June 1999."

If General Clark had had his way, we might have gone to war with Russia, or at least resurrected vestiges of the Cold War and we certainly would have had hundreds if not thousands of casualties in an ill-conceived ground war
Wesley Clark: The Guy Who Almost Started World War III, by Stella Jatras

That Gen. Clark....he's like the crazy ol' uncle that we all have.:D

Have a good one!:s4:

Ha ha! Now McCain has formed a "Truth Squad" to fight back against these so-called "attacks" on his record, and one of the guys in the Truth Squad is Bud Day, from the Swift Boat smear against Kerry! Way to stick by those principles, McCain!

Didn't McCain DENOUNCE that sleazy Swift Boat smear when it happened? Now he is complaining about someone criticising his own war record, as though HE is a victim of a Swift Baot slam, when that's not even what is going on, and then he HIRES that slimey dirtball that was involved in the opriginal Kerry Swift Boat smear. What a hypocrite!

Why does he think hiring one of these Swift Boat assclowns is going to help him take the high road?

And still a legitimate question: What is it in McCain's war record that qualifies him to be president?

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Originally Posted by dragonrider

And still a legitimate question: What is it in McCain's war record that qualifies him to be president?

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Well lets see:

-Unlike Obama he actually served and did that beyond the point of what most could handle. When offered to leave a POW camp he refused due to principle. Shows love of country instead of sitting in a church service learning about the U.S. of KKK A.

-He's been on the Senate Armed Services Committee for years and unlike Obama who chairs a foreign relations subcommittee covering European matters, he has actually had meetings.

Have a good one!:s4:

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That Gen. Clark....he's like the crazy ol' uncle that we all have.

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Clark knew who he was dealing with....:smokin:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dragonrider

And still a legitimate question: What is it in McCain's war record that qualifies him to be president?

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Psycho4Bud

Well lets see:

-Unlike Obama he actually served and did that beyond the point of what most could handle. When offered to leave a POW camp he refused due to principle. Shows love of country instead of sitting in a church service learning about the U.S. of KKK A.

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The point of the thread was that somehow Clark was wrong for questioning why McCain's war record qualified him to be the president. So I want to look at this answer from that point of view.

So he "actually served and did that beyond the point of what most could handle" --- that does not necessarily qualify him to be president. There are millions of people who served and many who served far above and beyond what is to be expected of anyone, but it does not necessarily qualify them to be president. Their achievments are admirable but it does not necessarily qualify them.

"When offered to leave a POW camp he refused due to principle" --- that does not necessarily qualify him to be president. In some ways it seems admirable, but in other ways it seems foolhardy. I don't even know what military policy is on this --- does anyone else? If you are in a POW camp, and offered a chance to leave, are you supposed to stay? The president is going to make decisions for all of us, and we have to think about how we want those descisions to be made. Purely on principle? Or other considerations too? If we were all in the POW camp together, would we want McCain to decide that we all were going to stay based on principle? Or would we rather leave and come back fighting? No one can question his bravery or dedication, but I think you could argue the judgement question either way. This particular anecdote is often promoted as showing what kind of man McCain is, but it could really go either way if you think about it.

"Shows love of country" --- that does not necessarily qualify him to be president. Having a love of your country is definitely a REQUIREMENT for being the president, but it is not a QUALIFICATION. Millions of people love this country, and they are not all qualified to be president.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Psycho4Bud

-He's been on the Senate Armed Services Committee for years and unlike Obama who chairs a foreign relations subcommittee covering European matters, he has actually had meetings.

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Being on the Senate Armed Services committee is not part of McCain's war record. It may serve as one of McCain many legitimate qualifications to be president, but the point of the thread was that Clark was wrong for questioning why McCain's war record qualified him to be the president. And I don't think this has anything to do with that.

If this is how McCain's war record qualifies him to be president, then I think it was legitimate of Clark to question how important it is. McCain is admirable and brave, and he loves his country as shown by his war record, but those good qualities are not necessarily enough. And I personally think there are legitimate questions about judgement in the POW story --- it shows an adherence to principle above all else, but maybe a flawed judgement. Of course, the Obama campaign would be insane to question it, given how rabid people can get around these issues, but I'm not part of the campaign, so I can question it.

I recall when I did outside sales for a Fluid Power distributor our CEO brought in a "partner" to help out with the company. This man had no knowledge of the industry, components we sold, etc... Well things went to hell in a hurry.

We are currently in a state of war and I think that his war record does have alot to consider with this election. He's been there, done that and knows what the troops need in many aspects. A VERY good point would be Obama's plan on leaving a skeleton force behind to protect 100,000 civilian workers, diplomats, Iraqi's that were loyal to us, and our embassy. McCain knows full well how this would develope due to his time in service, training, etc...

"but the point of the thread was that Clark was wrong for questioning why McCain's war record qualified him to be the president."

It was wrong. This is just a part of the presidential puzzle.
What have you done?
Who are your associates?
Do you practice what you preach? I.E. earmarks is a good example
Where has your voting stance been while in office?

The President is the official head of the U.S. military. All the dems know that this issue is BIG considering that we are at war and to belittle his past isn't going to fly well with the voters. I judge this issue as McCain 1....Obama 0. For ANYONE from the DNC to challenge this is a losing proposition.

Have a good one!:s4:

I'm curious, if our current state of war is the reason we "must" elect McCain, what does it say about him that he plans for us to be in Iraq for the next hundred years?

Why not elect the person that, while not overly knowledgable about war, wants to stop that war.
Bush doesn't know jack about war, but people have been following him for 8 long years. Why follow someone that is just going to be continuing those flawed policies.

As for McCains war record, while nice, war experiences have never been a requirment for presidency, and no matter how brave, it doesn't mean jack when it comes to his ability lead a country.

I think that the thing I objected to most in this thread and in some of the news coverage is the idea that Clark was wrong for even asking about the relevance of McCain's war experience and stating his judgement that it was not very relevant. The criticism twisted that into an attack on McCain's war record, which it was not. If McCain and his people want to point to his war record and say that it is a relevant piece of the presidential puzzle, then they have to be willing to defend that idea. Why is it relevant? They do not have a sacred issue just because it is a war record.

I don't personally like Clark very much, and as I stated before, I don't think he made a very storng point with this. But as far as I can tell, no one has made a very strong argumment for why it IS relevant --- the response is mostly in the form of, "You can't ask why it's relevant ---- It's a WAR RECORD for Christ's sake! You are only allowed to talk about it in positive terms! Otherwise it's blasphemy!" That's just weak.

If you want to make a case that his experience in Vietnam gave him some practical understanding that can be applied in Iraq, then that is a reasonable way to go about the debate. And people can argue whether that is true or not. But mostly McCain's record is not argued in those terms --- mostly they point to the POW experience to show how princlipled and devoted he is. But apparently if you try to question the relevance of that experience, you get treated like you just pissed on the cross. It's OK to bring up the POW experience, but only if you are going to say nice things about it.

I've never heard anyone ask this before, probably because of the sacred cow problem, but was McCain's decision to stay in the POW camp really a good decision? He was offered a chance to leave, but he stayed out of principle because the other prisoners were not offered a chance to leave. That's certainly brave and principled, but was it a good choice? If you are going to say that his experience in Vietnam qualifies him best for how he will handle Iraq, then how does his decision to stay in the camp reflect how he will conduct the war in Iraq? Maybe that's where his "100 years" thing comes from --- it's not practical, but it's a matter of principle. It seems to me that the most practical thing to have done would have been to leave the POW camp and come back dropping 1000 pound bombs. It makes more sense to me to leave and get back in the fight, and then maybe there'd be a chance to get everyone else out too eventually. What good does it do to stay except to give moral support to the others? I don't really know what would have been best, but it seems like if McCain's supporters want to bring it up, there are a few ways to look at it, if you can do it without getting your head bit off.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dragonrider

I think that the thing I objected to most in this thread and in some of the news coverage is the idea that Clark was wrong for even asking about the relevance of McCain's war experience and stating his judgement that it was not very relevant. The criticism twisted that into an attack on McCain's war record, which it was not.

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Separately, in a statement, Obama spokesman Bill Burton said, "As he's said many times before, Sen. Obama honors and respects Senator McCain's service, and of course he rejects yesterday's statement by Gen. Clark."

I guess I'll just have to agree with your candidate, Obama.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dragonrider

He was offered a chance to leave, but he stayed out of principle because the other prisoners were not offered a chance to leave. That's certainly brave and principled.

What good does it do to stay except to give moral support to the others?

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He was offered a chance because of his dads position in the military. Kind of shoots that ol' saying about the privilaged ones when he denied the release.

I'm sure that a few of his fellow soldiers appreciated what he did; and I'm also sure that his captors didn't.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dragonrider

but it seems like if McCain's supporters want to bring it up, there are a few ways to look at it, if you can do it without getting your head bit off.

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Hey, it wasn't McCain supporters that brought this issue up...it was an Obama supporter. Now if the Obama supporters want to try to belittle his time in Nam, why can't the McCain supporters defend his actions?

Have a good one!:s4:

Go after obama not his supporters...

and there are so many texans here that just praise McCain in the coffee shop every morning that can't have any more mis-information.... should i make 10 threads a day about that? no cause its not news and neither is this....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Psycho4Bud

Might be in Obama's best interest to tell Clark to STFU!!

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:D sounds like thats pretty much exactly what he did :D too bad for the General but its gotta give Bill Richardson a bit more of an edge now at that vp slot :pimp: