Do You Think John McCain Represents â??Changeâ?�?

In an election where a vast majority of people think the country is on the wrong track, itâ??s to be expected that politicians will try to present themselves as representing â??change.â?� Barack Obama has presented himself as representing â??change you can believe in.â?� John McCain is in a more difficult position because he is in the incumbent party, but he has countered that he represents the right kind of change.

Some think that John McCain will be a much more bipartisan president than this current administration. Some think that he will be much more moderate as well. Some think he will be a lot more focused and competent in the way he conducts the Iraq war. Some think he will abolish the torture and other abuses of suspected terrorist detainees that have occurred during this administration. Some think he will be more fiscally responsible than the current administration. Some point to a record of campaign finance reform and lobbyist reform and think he will bring greater accountability to our election system.

Others have called just an attempt to jump on the â??changeâ?� bandwagon. Some think John McCain will just continue the same exact polices that the current administration has followed --- some call it George Bushâ??s third term. Some think that all politicians answer to the same masters and nothing ever changes. They donâ??t think a McCain presidency will change anything.

And others have agreed that McCain represents change, but change in the wrong direction. Some believe he is too moderate and represents a change away from conservative principles that they admire in the current administration. Some think his pro-life commitments are not strong enough. Some think his campaign finance and lobbyist reforms go too far. Some question his commitment to a policy of low taxes.

So what do you think? Does John McCain represent change? Also be sure to answer the same question about Barack Obama in the Obama thread. http://boards.cannabis.com/politics/...ts-change.html

..."There is a large body of medical opinion that says there is plenty of other medications that are more effective and better and less damaging to one's health to use to relieve pain." â?? April 25, 2007, at Veteran's Park in Manchester, New Hampshire.

"Every medical expert I know of, including the AMA, says that there are much more effective and much better treatment for pain then medical marijuana." â?? September 30, 2007, Deery, New Hampshire.

He creeps me out

Firstly I think people should be looking at far more reasons than MMJ to vote or not vote for someone. There is much more going on in the world than marijuana. While I don't agree with his stance I feel it's important to develop a stronger dollar. Something I believe Obama is not capable of doing. Even if it is done it will be another bubble just like during the Clinton Administration.

McCain has historically clashed with other republicans due to his moderate views. He is not a typical conservative as everyone would have you believe.

Take a look at his history and voting record. He has been known to show bipartisan support and it is only recently, which if people look beyond what's infront of them then this will be obvious, that he has starting taking more conservative stances.

Of course he's going to change his alignment.. he is trying to win his party over. As it stands right now many of the staunch conservatives do not like McCain. To suggest that he's another George W. Bush when he has decades upon decades showing otherwise is ridiculous.

While I don't think McCain is going to be a great president I have to say I feel he will probably be a stronger President than Obama.

Obama is naive and idealistic. While ideals are great, they only work if you can back them up through experience and hard work; which Obama has displayed that he lacks both (short career and the guy doesn't even show up to vote.)

I think John McCain represents a change for the better, but mostly because the Bush admnistration has been SO BAD.

I think McCain would be more bipartisan than Bush in his approach to the opposition party.

I think he would be far more fiscally responsible than Bush, who has nearly bankrupted this country.

I think he would be more competent in conducting the war, even though he doesn't really represent any change in policy on the war. Instead of this half-committed, let-it-bleed Bush appraoch, I think McCain would either go all out, or he would get out.

I prefer McCain's more moderate kind of Republican style over Bush's ultra-conservative style. I think he wouldn't be as beholden to the religious right as Bush was.

I think he would end the torture of suspected terrorists.

At this point I am going to vote for Obama, but I think McCain would represent a positive change away from some of the things I have hated most about the Bush adminstration. He would not be a complete disaster like Bush was.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dragonrider

I think John McCain represents a change for the better, but mostly because the Bush admnistration has been SO BAD.

I think McCain would be more bipartisan than Bush in his approach to the opposition party.

I think he would be far more fiscally responsible than Bush, who has nearly bankrupted this country.

I think he would be more competent in conducting the war, even though he doesn't really represent any change in policy on the war. Instead of this half-committed, let-it-bleed Bush appraoch, I think McCain would either go all out, or he would get out.

I prefer McCain's more moderate kind of Republican style over Bush's ultra-conservative style. I think he wouldn't be as beholden to the religious right as Bush was.

I think he would end the torture of suspected terrorists.

At this point I am going to vote for Obama, but I think McCain would represent a positive change away from some of the things I have hated most about the Bush adminstration. He would not be a complete disaster like Bush was.

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Agreed, but you have to admit it does feel like both candidates are pretty weak :(

I wish I could've lived in the days when Republicans actually stood for what the Republican party meant and when Democrats did the same.

United we stand? What ever happened to that saying that we stamp on our monetary and is in our pledge of allegiance.

We've strayed so far in such a short time.

I put a sticky on your poll for ya.....it'll be lifted either at your request or if 30 days have past with no response.

By the way, great thead!:thumbsup: Should generate some good debate.....:D

Have a good one!:jointsmile:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dragonrider

I think John McCain represents a change for the better, but mostly because the Bush admnistration has been SO BAD.

I think McCain would be more bipartisan than Bush in his approach to the opposition party.

I think he would be far more fiscally responsible than Bush, who has nearly bankrupted this country.

I think he would be more competent in conducting the war, even though he doesn't really represent any change in policy on the war. Instead of this half-committed, let-it-bleed Bush appraoch, I think McCain would either go all out, or he would get out.

I prefer McCain's more moderate kind of Republican style over Bush's ultra-conservative style. I think he wouldn't be as beholden to the religious right as Bush was.

I think he would end the torture of suspected terrorists.

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We agree? I'll be back after I check my pulse...:lol5:

Have a good one!:s4:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Psycho4Bud

I put a sticky on your poll for ya.....it'll be lifted either at your request or if 30 days have past with no response.

By the way, great thead!:thumbsup: Should generate some good debate.....:D

Have a good one!:jointsmile:

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Thanks! I think we'll get some good discussion out of these.

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Originally Posted by Psycho4Bud

We agree? I'll be back after I check my pulse...:lol5:

Have a good one!:s4:

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Ha ha! I hope you recover from your heart attack! Remember, Barack Obama has a plan to be sure you have the health insurance you need!

Seriously though, I'm pretty middle-of-the-road on a lot of issues, and McCain is more moderate than he will protray himself for the election. I can respect him and see his good sides. But I'm supporting Obama, so that's probably the last time you'll hear me say anything like that until after McCain concedes in November!

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Originally Posted by dragonrider

Ha ha! I hope you recover from your heart attack! Remember, Barack Obama has a plan to be sure you have the health insurance you need!

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Just got back from the E.R.....seems I'll live.:D

He may have a plan but I'm sure $9.00/gal. gas is in that plan; the way it is in other countries that pay to play.

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Originally Posted by dragonrider

Seriously though, I'm pretty middle-of-the-road on a lot of issues, and McCain is more moderate than he will protray himself for the election. I can respect him and see his good sides. But I'm supporting Obama, so that's probably the last time you'll hear me say anything like that until after McCain concedes in November!

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Believe it or not I'm in a similar position: I'm for abortion, legalizing ALL recreational drugs, pro-gay marriage, pro-med. m.j., pro-Gitmo, and torture when it could be vital. Not very "McCainish" but my other views, which I feel are more important at the time, are FAR from Obama.

ONCE AGAIN we are in a situation of not who we're voting for but who we're voting against.

Have a good one!:s4:

McCain represents no change at all.

I absolutely cannot stand him. Right now the only reason I am voting for him is that I hate Obama more.

He's poked Republicans in the eye every chance he has got. He had some good social views that I could agree with but then when he was elected he changed them all so that people would vote for him. It's fucked up. I do agree with some of his stuff though, like no socialised healthcare, guns, the border, and the war.

We need a Libertarian in there.

I need change. John McCain will keep me suffering. Nothing would change.

I need change.

He doesn't represent change at all, he claims he does. He should retire and save some of his money, he wouldn't want to get ill and pay a billion dollars for healthcare.

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Originally Posted by Reefer Rogue

He doesn't represent change at all, he claims he does. He should retire and save some of his money, he wouldn't want to get ill and pay a billion dollars for healthcare.

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Here in America most employers.. MOST... will pay for your health insurance. You might have to pay some small fee $20-$100 monthly for an individual, but at least we're not being taxed 50% or more unlike other Socialized governments where yes, everyone has medical care, but it takes forever to see a doctor.

I have canadian friends that travel into the United States to recieve healthcare.

Now if we're talking about pharmaceutical companies then I would have to agree. They are overpriced and seem to find new ways to undermine the American people to steal their money.

I find it funny how many people talk so much crap about America and the Social programs or lack there of that we have; yet when someone needs military help they welcome us with open arms.. then proceed to continue to talk crap when it's over.

I am not a fan of socialized services. I don't believe I should be punished for someone elses inability to get health insurance. In addition we have government funded programs such as Medicaid and Medicare (which I am familiar with as my brother, being handicapped, recieves government health care)... and in Texas I believe we even have a state funded program in addition to that. They are not the best but to be honest I bet they're at least on par with other socialized forms of healthcare in other countries.

If everyone is equal then who get's to ever see a doctor.. and if everyone is getting this service free of charge then who is paying for it?

Socialized programs have their own issues that you must acknowledge.

We actually have alot of programs here in America; most of which we've made sure my brother has gotten or is eligible for. I feel most of the complaint of the American people is out of laziness. It took time to get all these programs for my brother but we did get them, and we don't pay anything for his healthcare.

Sorry that we don't hand out services, we do require some effort on the people's part which I feel deters alot of people who don't truely need it and are capable of providing for themselves.

Remember when you point your finger at someone there are 3 more that are pointed right back at you :P.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by daihashi

Here in America most employers.. MOST... will pay for your health insurance. You might have to pay some small fee $20-$100 monthly for an individual, but at least we're not being taxed 50% or more unlike other Socialized governments where yes, everyone has medical care, but it takes forever to see a doctor.

I have canadian friends that travel into the United States to recieve healthcare.

Now if we're talking about pharmaceutical companies then I would have to agree. They are overpriced and seem to find new ways to undermine the American people to steal their money.

I find it funny how many people talk so much crap about America and the Social programs or lack there of that we have; yet when someone needs military help they welcome us with open arms.. then proceed to continue to talk crap when it's over.

I am not a fan of socialized services. I don't believe I should be punished for someone elses inability to get health insurance. In addition we have government funded programs such as Medicaid and Medicare (which I am familiar with as my brother, being handicapped, recieves government health care)... and in Texas I believe we even have a state funded program in addition to that. They are not the best but to be honest I bet they're at least on par with other socialized forms of healthcare in other countries.

If everyone is equal then who get's to ever see a doctor.. and if everyone is getting this service free of charge then who is paying for it?

Socialized programs have their own issues that you must acknowledge.

We actually have alot of programs here in America; most of which we've made sure my brother has gotten or is eligible for. I feel most of the complaint of the American people is out of laziness. It took time to get all these programs for my brother but we did get them, and we don't pay anything for his healthcare.

Sorry that we don't hand out services, we do require some effort on the people's part which I feel deters alot of people who don't truely need it and are capable of providing for themselves.

Remember when you point your finger at someone there are 3 more that are pointed right back at you :P.

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America has social programs for health care, but not enough for them. The danger for Americans are not the ones who are eligible for coverage, it's the ones who aren't. Once that Certificate of Coverage expired you are basically dead as a dog on the street if you have a terminal illness. Medicaid or Medicare won't pay for chemotherapy, won't pay for the necessary clean-up surgeries. They'll pay enough to keep you comfortible unti death even if it's a treatable form of cancer.

I can see what you are saying that there is a laziness factor, but for the most part people are denied procedures based on their medical history and cost-saving measures. I'm not saying the solution is universal health care, but such a system where the government plays more of a role covering procedures health insurance companies won't cover. Have the government subsidize medical deductions to pay for the best health care for those that don't make alot of money. Allow people coverage for all life-saving procedures regardless if they have a job or not. No one should be denied treatment based on a pre-existing condition. A dual system could off-set costs while allowing medical companies to profit with more oversight and ethics. Might pay a bit more in tax, but with less being deducted from your paycheck for insurance, you wouldn't lose anything.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by daihashi

Here in America most employers.. MOST... will pay for your health insurance. You might have to pay some small fee $20-$100 monthly for an individual, but at least we're not being taxed 50% or more unlike other Socialized governments where yes, everyone has medical care, but it takes forever to see a doctor.

I have canadian friends that travel into the United States to recieve healthcare.

Now if we're talking about pharmaceutical companies then I would have to agree. They are overpriced and seem to find new ways to undermine the American people to steal their money.

I find it funny how many people talk so much crap about America and the Social programs or lack there of that we have; yet when someone needs military help they welcome us with open arms.. then proceed to continue to talk crap when it's over.

I am not a fan of socialized services. I don't believe I should be punished for someone elses inability to get health insurance. In addition we have government funded programs such as Medicaid and Medicare (which I am familiar with as my brother, being handicapped, recieves government health care)... and in Texas I believe we even have a state funded program in addition to that. They are not the best but to be honest I bet they're at least on par with other socialized forms of healthcare in other countries.

If everyone is equal then who get's to ever see a doctor.. and if everyone is getting this service free of charge then who is paying for it?

Socialized programs have their own issues that you must acknowledge.

We actually have alot of programs here in America; most of which we've made sure my brother has gotten or is eligible for. I feel most of the complaint of the American people is out of laziness. It took time to get all these programs for my brother but we did get them, and we don't pay anything for his healthcare.

Sorry that we don't hand out services, we do require some effort on the people's part which I feel deters alot of people who don't truely need it and are capable of providing for themselves.

Remember when you point your finger at someone there are 3 more that are pointed right back at you :P.

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What happens when your employer drops you because you got sick or hurt and you have to pay for the health care plan yourself. Its a pain in the##$ is what it is. I know its happening to me. What does Mccain have to offer to me nothing. I had to change everything in my whole life style because of him and all the republicans and Bush. They offer nothing to me only the rich.:rasta::rastasmoke::pimp:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BigWeed

What happens when your employer drops you because you got sick or hurt and you have to pay for the health care plan yourself. Its a pain in the##$ is what it is. I know its happening to me.

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Yes, this is quite common. A person may have fine health insurance, then lose their job due to illness, and be completely screwed. My brother-in-law is going through that right now. His disabilty insurance will only last awhile longer and even while he has it, it's not enough to even pay his rent let alone pay his health insurance premiums. There are some operations that might restore enough mobility to his screwed up joints to allow him to return to work, but there is no way he can pay for them. There is no governemnt agency that will pay for them either. He's not a lazy person who doesn't want to work. He's a disabled worker who can't get the medical care to return to work.

Education and health care are not determined by the president. They are determined by the Rothchilds. Follow the money and you will surly find out who leads this country.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BigWeed

What happens when your employer drops you because you got sick or hurt and you have to pay for the health care plan yourself. Its a pain in the##$ is what it is. I know its happening to me. What does Mccain have to offer to me nothing. I had to change everything in my whole life style because of him and all the republicans and Bush. They offer nothing to me only the rich.:rasta::rastasmoke::pimp:

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So the needs of the few outweight the needs of the many?

I'm not trying to sound callous but there are government programs available to help you in such situations. And yes while it is usually an ordeal and a hassle to get approved for these programs you will get through eventually. It took my brother 6 months to get full benefits from the government. Including getting about 2k a month for being handicapped for his own personal needs.

You ask what does McCain have to offer you? Well you may be right, but what does Obama have to offer you?

Has he actually explained what he has planned and HOW he plans to achieve these goals and HOW these plans are going to impact other parts of your life? Things are not free my friend. The money has to come from somewhere and I'm willing to bet it will be coming out of your paycheck.

This is the third post where you've ranted just making empty statements. Do you actually know anything about Barack Obama?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dragonrider

There is no governemnt agency that will pay for them either. He's not a lazy person who doesn't want to work. He's a disabled worker who can't get the medical care to return to work.

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There is.. tell him to contact his congressman. It did not take that much time in the grand scheme of things to get my brother his benefits. We contacted my brothers congressman and things started happening.

It's like the American people don't realize they are allowed to contact their Congressmen. :thumbsup:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by daihashi

So the needs of the few outweight the needs of the many?

I'm not trying to sound callous but there are government programs available to help you in such situations. And yes while it is usually an ordeal and a hassle to get approved for these programs you will get through eventually. It took my brother 6 months to get full benefits from the government. Including getting about 2k a month for being handicapped for his own personal needs.

You ask what does McCain have to offer you? Well you may be right, but what does Obama have to offer you?

Has he actually explained what he has planned and HOW he plans to achieve these goals and HOW these plans are going to impact other parts of your life? Things are not free my friend. The money has to come from somewhere and I'm willing to bet it will be coming out of your paycheck.

This is the third post where you've ranted just making empty statements. Do you actually know anything about Barack Obama?

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I have gone back to work to early because I had to. As for those Government programs I dont Qualify I still make to much money to Qualify I just had to reararange my life style and my wife went back to work. All Im saying dont punish me because Im injured and cut me and make me pay higher permiums. Do you know anthing about John Mccain and what he plans to do for health care putting more money in my pockets putting my kids through school and giving them a future.:rasta::rastasmoke::pimp:

I thinK McCain answered a lot today when he expressed his views of Gitmo! Obviously, Rebgirl is right, no change at all! Voting the lesser of 2 evils for her.

Change, I think not! Obama, change will be of color, I guees!

This is not the first time we have had little to choose from. Who can honestly say we have experienced real change with anyone, except when we went to war with absolutely no diplomacy! Or when Nixon took us out of Viet Nam, as we requested and we were allowed to be, slightly a public nuisance to do it!:hippy:

Initially, we will continue to change for the worse, to blame that on either candidate would be unfair. It takes awhile to stop a snowball from going downhill, once you take over the ideology! Even if it is the same! So, at what point would you expect to see a change?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BigWeed

I have gone back to work to early because I had to. As for those Government programs I dont Qualify I still make to much money to Qualify I just had to reararange my life style and my wife went back to work. All Im saying dont punish me because Im injured and cut me and make me pay higher permiums. Do you know anthing about John Mccain and what he plans to do for health care putting more money in my pockets putting my kids through school and giving them a future.:rasta::rastasmoke::pimp:

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First let's see some of the things he's done in the past to try to help with healthcare:

Voted for 350 billion dollars for prescription drugs for poor Seniors in May of 2002:

Supported Tax credits for those without employee Health Insruance in May of 2002

Voted No on blocking medical savings accounts (where you get to take money out pretax and set it aside for medical needs for the year.. thus saving you some money) April 1996

Voted Yes for increasing Tobacco Restrictions June 1998

Voted Yes on funding for GOP version of Medicare prescription Drug benefit. April 2001

Voted yes for allowing patients to sue HMO's and collect punitive Damages. June 2001

Voted YES on increasing Medicaid rebate for producing generics. (Nov 2005)

Voted YES on negotiating bulk purchases for Medicare prescription drug. (Mar 2005)



That's some of his past voting record on healthcare.. Not bad, but at the same time not really that impressive. However Most of his voting record is in the positive direction.

Here is an excerpt from a speech he gave recently on what he has planned for healthcare in America.

The key to real reform is to restore control over our health-care system to the patients themselves. Right now, even those with access to health care often have no assurance that it is appropriate care. Too much of the system is built on getting paid just for providing services, regardless of whether those services are necessary or produce quality care and outcomes. American families should only pay for getting the right care: care that is intended to improve and safeguard their health.

When families are informed about medical choices, they are more capable of making their own decisions, less likely to choose the most expensive and often unnecessary options, and are more satisfied with their choices. We took an important step in this direction with the creation of Health Savings Accounts, tax-preferred accounts that are used to pay insurance premiums and other health costs. These accounts put the family in charge of what they pay for. And, as president, I would seek to encourage and expand the benefits of these accounts to more American families.

Americans need new choices beyond those offered in employment-based coverage. Americans want a system built so that wherever you go and wherever you work, your health plan is goes with you. And there is a very straightforward way to achieve this.

Under current law, the federal government gives a tax benefit when employers provide health-insurance coverage to American workers and their families. This benefit doesn't cover the total cost of the health plan, and in reality each worker and family absorbs the rest of the cost in lower wages and diminished benefits. But it provides essential support for insurance coverage. Many workers are perfectly content with this arrangement, and under my reform plan they would be able to keep that coverage. Their employer-provided health plans would be largely untouched and unchanged.

But for every American who wanted it, another option would be available: Every year, they would receive a tax credit directly, with the same cash value of the credits for employees in big companies, in a small business, or self-employed. You simply choose the insurance provider that suits you best. By mail or online, you would then inform the government of your selection. And the money to help pay for your health care would be sent straight to that insurance provider. The health plan you chose would be as good as any that an employer could choose for you. It would be yours and your family's health-care plan, and yours to keep.

The value of that credit -- 2,500 dollars for individuals, 5,000 dollars for families -- would also be enhanced by the greater competition this reform would help create among insurance companies. Millions of Americans would be making their own health-care choices again. Insurance companies could no longer take your business for granted, offering narrow plans with escalating costs. It would help change the whole dynamic of the current system, putting individuals and families back in charge, and forcing companies to respond with better service at lower cost.

It would help extend the advantages of staying with doctors and providers of your choice. When Americans speak of "our doctor," it will mean something again, because they won't have to change from one doctor or one network to the next every time they change employers. They'll have a medical "home" again, dealing with doctors who know and care about them.

These reforms will take time, and critics argue that when my proposed tax credit becomes available it would encourage people to purchase health insurance on the current individual market, while significant weaknesses in the market remain. They worry that Americans with pre-existing conditions could still be denied insurance. Congress took the important step of providing some protection against the exclusion of pre-existing conditions in the Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act in 1996. I supported that legislation, and nothing in my reforms will change the fact that if you remain employed and insured you will build protection against the cost of treating any pre-existing condition.

Even so, those without prior group coverage and those with pre-existing conditions do have the most difficulty on the individual market, and we need to make sure they get the high-quality coverage they need. I will work tirelessly to address the problem. But I won't create another entitlement program that Washington will let get out of control. Nor will I saddle states with another unfunded mandate. The states have been very active in experimenting with ways to cover the "uninsurables." The State of North Carolina, for example, has an agreement with Blue Cross to act as insurer of "last resort." Over thirty states have some form of "high-risk" pool, and over twenty states have plans that limit premiums charged to people suffering an illness and who have been denied insurance.

As President, I will meet with the governors to solicit their ideas about a best practice model that states can follow -- a Guaranteed Access Plan or GAP that would reflect the best experience of the states. I will work with Congress, the governors, and industry to make sure that it is funded adequately and has the right incentives to reduce costs such as disease management, individual case management, and health and wellness programs. These programs reach out to people who are at risk for different diseases and chronic conditions and provide them with nurse care managers to make sure they receive the proper care and avoid unnecessary treatments and emergency room visits. The details of a Guaranteed Access Plan will be worked out with the collaboration and consent of the states. But, conceptually, federal assistance could be provided to a nonprofit GAP that operated under the direction of a board that i ncluded all stakeholders groups -- legislators, insurers, business and medical community representatives, and, most importantly, patients. The board would contract with insurers to cover patients who have been denied insurance and could join with other state plans to enlarge pools and lower overhead costs. There would be reasonable limits on premiums, and assistance would be available for Americans below a certain income level.

I feel that's very reasonable and smart. We aren't going to have a miracle overnight. It's going to take some work and initiative to get everything worked out. He's told you what his ideas are for a new health care option and for the things he was unsure about he as least mentions how he plans to work with states who have existing plans to help people that have been denied health care or are suffering a pre-existing condition and try to adapt this to his plan.

He doesn't plan to tax the American people but rather take back some of the Tax Credit that would normally be going to the employers and giving it to the people.

No taxes, and no cuts.. he's simply redistributing the money.

Now tell me what is Obama's plan for healthcare and how does he plan on funding it? :wtf:

You still haven't answered what Obama has to offer you or what do you know about Obama?

I've answered your questions on McCain with actual substance. Your turn. :jointsmile:



edit: Just so you know, I am sorry to hear about your situation. I am for more healthcare... just not a socialized form of it and I don't want to be taxed more to get it. Which is why I think John McCain has the right idea.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by daihashi

edit: Just so you know, I am sorry to hear about your situation. I am for more healthcare... just not a socialized form of it and I don't want to be taxed more to get it. Which is why I think John McCain has the right idea.

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I should change this because I think my wording is poor. Saying the "right idea" would insinuate I believe his way is the proper way to address the problem.

I was using "the right idea" in comparison to Obama's plan. But Honestly I think both plans are pretty poor.

The man scares the shit out of me..Plain and simple. I absolutely wish he doesn't get elected...It's sad that he's the one the media chose for us..I just wish every candidate from day one would get equal time on television..

there is no such thing as change. politics are politics, independence goes to the highest bidder.

it always has, and always will, until we are WILLING to fight for our independence.

Time for a benchmark on these threads. I am going to do the same summary for both the Obama Change thread and the McCain Change thread.

The Obama poll seems to indicate a pretty much even split between those who think Obama is a change for the better and those who think Obama is a change for the worse. There are 47 reponses so far. By a very narrow margin of one vote, 20 think he is a change for the better (42%), versus 19 who think he is a change for the worse (40%). One thing is sure, whether you think he is for better or for worse, most people think he represesnts "change" --- only 8 think he represents no change (19%).

The McCain poll is lese evenly stacked, and weighted more to the neutral and negative. There are a total of 42 responses. The largerst number, 19, think he represents no change (45%). The next largest number, 14, think he represents a change for the worse (33%). And 9 think he represents a change for the better (21%).

Tighter than I thought it would be on a predominate left wing forum.:thumbsup:

I'll keep these polls running for as long as you want.

Have a good one!:s4:

Originally Posted by daihashi
Here in America most employers.. MOST... will pay for your health insurance.

you're pulling this broad stroked generalization out of thin air, as I'm sure you will be doing in the rest of this post. This is flat out FALSE.

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but at least we're not being taxed 50% or more unlike other Socialized governments where yes, everyone has medical care, but it takes forever to see a doctor.

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This is another completely unfounded generalization that capitalists love to claim, you have NO CLUE how the healthcare system actually works in places like canada. Germany spends about 1/5th of what america spends on health care and yes EVERYONE gets covered.

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I have canadian friends that travel into the United States to recieve healthcare.

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I'm sure you do.

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Now if we're talking about pharmaceutical companies then I would have to agree. They are overpriced and seem to find new ways to undermine the American people to steal their money.

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and they only exist because we have our wonderful flawless insurance companies to pay for the over priced unsafe drugs

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I find it funny how many people talk so much crap about America and the Social programs or lack there of that we have; yet when someone needs military help they welcome us with open arms.. then proceed to continue to talk crap when it's over.

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uh reality check dude, when's the last time someone actually wanted us in their country and we came to their rescue? I do believe africa is still swimming in genocide.

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I am not a fan of socialized services. I don't believe I should be punished for someone elses inability to get health insurance

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I work for a small struggling company that pays me half what I could get anywhere else in the industry I work in. They cant afford to pay me what based on my skills and experience, and I cant afford private insurance. I guess I just deserve to suffer.

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I believe we even have a state funded program in addition to that. They are not the best but to be honest I bet they're at least on par with other socialized forms of healthcare in other countries.

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dude. NO WE DONT. I Live in texas.

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If everyone is equal then who get's to ever see a doctor.. and if everyone is getting this service free of charge then who is paying for it?

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sick people. this part still works the same. healthcare budget. You know there are a lot of "public" positions in america that aren't paid for by "consumers" but rather citizens.

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We actually have alot of programs here in America; most of which we've made sure my brother has gotten or is eligible for. I feel most of the complaint of the American people is out of laziness.

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yeah because people who are sick and in need of medical attention but cant afford it are just lazy parasites. I know.

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Sorry that we don't hand out services, we do require some effort on the people's part which I feel deters alot of people who don't truely need it and are capable of providing for themselves.

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I'm really at a loss that there are people out there who still think this way.

yeesh.

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Originally Posted by greengoddess420

Originally Posted by daihashi
Here in America most employers.. MOST... will pay for your health insurance.

you're pulling this broad stroked generalization out of thin air, as I'm sure you will be doing in the rest of this post. This is flat out FALSE.

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And I see that you isolated me; if you've read any of my posts yo uknow I generally source all my information. So Please, attack my posts. I will be ready.

BTW.. here are some insurance stats from NCHC | Facts About Healthcare - Health Insurance Coverage
:)

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The percentage of people (workers and dependents) with employment-based health insurance has dropped from 70 percent in 1987 to 59 percent in 2006. This is the lowest level of employment-based insurance coverage in more than a decade.4, 5

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I posted a source in another thread that stated that employment based health insurance rose something like 2.1% in 2007. It was from the new york times I believe. I'll search through other threads and see if I can find the link but the last time I checked 61% is a most/majority... hell even 59% is the most/majority.

There is a drop of 9% over the last 21 years. This would indicate that there is a problem that needs to be fixed.. not that we need to socialize our health care.

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This is another completely unfounded generalization that capitalists love to claim, you have NO CLUE how the healthcare system actually works in places like canada. Germany spends about 1/5th of what america spends on health care and yes EVERYONE gets covered.

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Really?

Germany Tax Laws Tax System Germany. - WorldWide-Tax.com

I see some pretty hefty tax brackets there as well as some SERIOUS taxing of corporations.. which often results in mediocre pay. A company can't pay it's employees what it has to pay in taxes...

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I'm sure you do.

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Why thank you for questioning where some of my friends live, but I assure you I have friends in Canada. If you choose to not believe me then that is your problem and not mine and probably does not need to be commented on.

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and they only exist because we have our wonderful flawless insurance companies to pay for the over priced unsafe drugs

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We have one of the most strenuous drug testing processes worldwide. While there are errors you can't expect a perfect system.

While I agree drugs are overpriced I would have to say this is no fault of the insurance companies. If you've worked for any company that invests heavily in research and development then you would know that the cost to develop a new product is extremely high. While I agree the cost of medicine should be lower.. you honestly can't expect it to be extremely cheap either.

If these pharmaceutical companies do not make profit and keep their investors happy then they will not have the capital necessary to budget research for new drugs that help extend and improve our lives.

It's sad that this is the reality of things.. but we do not have socialized medicine and socialization of medicine would be the only way to force the cost to what people deem 'reasonable'.

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uh reality check dude, when's the last time someone actually wanted us in their country and we came to their rescue? I do believe africa is still swimming in genocide.

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We do more militarily than go into other countries. We do supply countries with weapons you know as does China and Russia. You're so quick to jump to assumptions. So eager to angrily slam me down.

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I work for a small struggling company that pays me half what I could get anywhere else in the industry I work in. They cant afford to pay me what based on my skills and experience, and I cant afford private insurance. I guess I just deserve to suffer.

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Yes... you do. You know the situation you're in. It's not like I haven't been in a similar situation but I didn't put my healthcare responsibility onto someone else. Texas is a right to work state. Meaning you are not obligated to stay at your current company. If you have a problem with your benefits then you are free to find a job with a company that will give you full benefits.

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dude. NO WE DONT. I Live in texas.

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That's pretty amazing to hear because pretty much all states have local medical programs. This does not necessarily mean insurance coverage or prescriptions necessarily but rather services that you would normally have to go to a doctor for but instead go to a government program for instead.

Texas Department of State Health Services

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sick people. this part still works the same. healthcare budget. You know there are a lot of "public" positions in america that aren't paid for by "consumers" but rather citizens.

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And you don't see this being rather costly by people who would abuse the system by going to the doctor when they have a case of mild diarreah? Or is your faith in human honesty so great that you think this will never happen? When people abuse the system it becomes enormously costly. A perfect example would be for you to review your cities annual cost to support 9/11 in comparison of the true emergencies vs non emergencies.

A non emergency call costs alot of money. Paramedics or Firemen or police have to be dispatched. You have the cost of the vehicle they drive.. the cost of maintenance, insurance, the cost of the salary of the employees responding to the call, the cost of the call center person who picked up the phone, and any other overhead that goes along with that.

People abusing a public service really racks up the cost FAST!

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yeah because people who are sick and in need of medical attention but cant afford it are just lazy parasites. I know.

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I did not mean being lazy due to being sick. My brother is mentally retarded, cannot walk, talk, speak. He has severe motor function impairment among other things. I would hardly call him lazy. I love how you instantly jumped at the chance to judge me here.

What I meant by laziness are that people are too lazy to get off their ass and WORK at making sure they get these programs. It takes effort. The government isn't going to just HAND over anything. They want to make sure they aren't getting ripped off (ironic eh?). It took quite some time and effort to get my brother his benefits. Years, but now he has them and it's just about impossible to take them from him now.

You say you make low pay and don't get benefits, have you gotten up and seen if you can qualify for medical benefits through government assistance? I'm going to assume that you havent but if I'm wrong here then I apologize.

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I'm really at a loss that there are people out there who still think this way.

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I'm really at a loss at your audacity to make false assumptions about me being that you are a new user to these forums. It's really too bad that your arguments don't hold any water.

I'm done with the b.s. in here. From here on out if the only means of debate you have is to call someones opinion or the member ignorant, that person will be on a LONG vacation!:mad:

Have a good one!:thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by dragonrider

I think John McCain represents a change for the better, but mostly because the Bush admnistration has been SO BAD.

I think McCain would be more bipartisan than Bush in his approach to the opposition party.

I think he would be far more fiscally responsible than Bush, who has nearly bankrupted this country.

I think he would be more competent in conducting the war, even though he doesn't really represent any change in policy on the war. Instead of this half-committed, let-it-bleed Bush appraoch, I think McCain would either go all out, or he would get out.

I prefer McCain's more moderate kind of Republican style over Bush's ultra-conservative style. I think he wouldn't be as beholden to the religious right as Bush was.

I think he would end the torture of suspected terrorists.

At this point I am going to vote for Obama, but I think McCain would represent a positive change away from some of the things I have hated most about the Bush adminstration. He would not be a complete disaster like Bush was.

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Pretty much my thoughts exactly.

i think mccain would be a better president than george bush, but he would be the same kind of jingoist, trickle down, simplistic, joe sixpack president as george bush so he's not the right man to work on reversing the problems caused by george bush




"The issue of economics is not something I've understood as well as I should ... (but) I've got Greenspan's book."
- John McCain, December 2007


more scary john mccain quotes:

"The fact is we had four years of failed policy. We were losing. We were losing the war in Iraq. The consequences of failure and defeat of the United States of America in the first major conflict since 9/11 would have had devastating impacts throughout the region and the world." --forgetting the war in Afghanistan, which was launched in October 2001, CBS News interview, July 21, 2008

"We have a lot of work to do. It's a very hard struggle, particularly given the situation on the Iraq-Pakistan border." --referring to a border that does not exist, ABC News interview, July 21, 2008 (Watch video clip)

"I was concerned about a couple of steps that the Russian government took in the last several days. One was reducing the energy supplies to Czechoslovakia." --referring to a country that no longer exists, Phoenix, Arizona, July 14, 2008

"I am learning to get online myself, and I will have that down fairly soon, getting on myself. I don't expect to be a great communicator, I don't expect to set up my own blog, but I am becoming computer literate to the point where I can get the information that I need." --New York Times interview, July 13, 2008

"Maybe that's a way of killing them." --responding to a report that $158 million in cigarettes have been shipped to Iran during Bush's presidency despite restrictions on U.S. exports to that country, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, July 8, 2008

"Americans have got to understand that we are paying present-day retirees with the taxes paid by young workers in America today. And that's a disgrace. It's an absolute disgrace and it's got to be fixed." --on Social Security, Denver, Colorado, July 7, 2008

"That's not too important. What's important is the casualties." --on when U.S. troops will return from Iraq, "Today," NBC, June 11, 2008

"I will veto every single beer, um, bill with earmarks." --speaking at the National Small Business Summit, Washington, D.C., June 10, 2008 (Watch video clip)

"Well, basically, it's a Google." --on how he's conducting his VP search, Richmond, Virginia, June 9, 2008

"We should be able to deliver bottled hot water to dehydrated babies." --Kenner, Louisiana, June 3, 2008 (Watch video clip)

"Make it a hundred...That would be fine with me." -to a questioner who asked if he supported President Bush's vision for keeping U.S. troops in Iraq for 50 years

"I'm going to be honest: I know a lot less about economics than I do about military and foreign policy issues. I still need to be educated."

re: canadians friends going to america for health care

i live in canada and we have private medical clinics and public hospitals that cater to americans who come up here to access cheap medical, dental, and eye care...there are a few private medical clinics in my city that have been serving americans for years...we also had busloads of american senior citizens coming across the border to fill their prescriptions...providing medical care to americans is big business up here, and the economic crisis is probably going to drive more americans north to save money


cambie surgical clinic:
Cambie Surgery Centre - Vancouver, BC, Canada

false creek surgical clinic:
False Creek Surgical Centre - Vancouver Surgery


Ontario MDs to launch medical tourism firm

LISA PRIEST

September 30, 2008

Ailing Americans will soon be able to buy surgery at bargain prices in Canadian hospitals through a new medical tourism company founded by two physicians.

Markham-based anesthetist Shehbaz Butt says he can provide international patients quality choices through his company, Canadian Healthcare International Corp., at rates drastically lower than those in the United States.

"We realized that we can help the international patients while indirectly helping our local patients by creating additional revenue for Canadian hospitals," Dr. Butt wrote in an e-mail. He said the procedures would not interfere with care provided to patients here.

I think McCain is for change after all! He changes what he says every day!:wtf:


:jointsmile:

Depends on what kind of change you like.

War: Not much gonna change there, except for more casualties. Victory? Don't even START on that bullshit.

Economics: Not raise ANYONES taxes? Well, I guess we're stuck with the rich getting richer and poor getting poorer. Spending freeze? Gimme a fucking break, that will last for a week before he realizes "Oh, shit, when we don't spend money NOTHING GETS DONE." Spending money makes the world go round, whether you like it or not.

Social Issues: What is there to say? He's a conservative republican, social freedom is the LAST thing this guy cares about, unless it's "infanticide" once that egg leaves the wall.

Honestly, I see no positive change whatsoever if he gets elected. He didnt even start using the change message until he saw how effective it was with Obama. Talk about reading the other teams playbook.

I believe if McCain is elected the only change we will see will be in our pockets, and will will call it a paycheck!!!

mccain is proposing a spending freeze AFTER the largest increase in federal spending in history...the US gov't finances are in bankruptcy territory and mccain sez "ZAP! you're frozen!" (except for military spending which he plans to increase)...how does that solve anything?

i don't see any sensible solutions from obama on the deficits either