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Thanks Herb this is why you shouldnt torture anyone,i dont care if he is johnny fucking jihad you shouldnt torture anyone.......
Cheers for that..Its was pretty intresting..
The US sure do know how to get people to hate them. Another Inocent person locked up and tortured over some BS.. Fuck that shit.. Hope they wankers who are in control of this mess die a painful death.. :mad:
I personally think these pricks who do this shit to these people should be stoned to death..
don't forget the ex inmate from GITMO who got out and was later involved in a suicide bombing in Iraq. I don't think he was exactly an innocent victim....hardly.
No guys you don't understand. In theory Gitmo is probably effective. The problem is in practice if failed but that was because of government neglect. I still support torture but only with people who are actually proven to be the bad guys rather than just someone who could be the bad guy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dream of the iris
How do you know who a bad guy is and who isnt? For all we know that guy who got out of Gitmo and did the suicide bombing was a peaceful man until America tortured him to high hell and stuffed him into a hole in the wall.
Yea i can see torturing someone who they pulled out of the cockpit of a plane but someone who they pulled off a bus is ludicrous. I wonder if he got the cock-meat sandwich.(Sorry just saw H&K2 thanks to smokey)Quote:
Originally Posted by Dream of the iris
Quote:
Originally Posted by smok3y
I don't know... personally I think that form of execution should be bestowed upon respectable stoners like you and I. :S5: :smokebong:
That's horrible.. Makes me sad that the US would do this to anyone.
Well that's it! That's the flaw that I was talking about. The change that needs to be done to a system that could work. Obviously they used little or no effort to find out if this person was really a terrorist. It was just a matter or neglect and responsibility. If the right people were in charge and did it the correct way then I guarentee the U.S can easily find evidence that would infer that he was a terrorist. Another thing that must be changed is the not having any rights in court. I mean why even bother having a court system at Gitmo if they aren't even allowed a fair trial? These are things that need to be changed and its not just changes in systems like Gitmo but also with our other systems like the tax system, FDA, CIA, DEA. Just simply getting rid of things rather then fixing them is stoner Ron Paul talk.
The easiest way to make an enemy is to abuse an innocent.Quote:
Originally Posted by 40oz
America should be ashamed of the tactics it's goverment uses, put a person under enough pressure and they will admit to anything just to stop the torture.
It sickens me that the US tries to justify torture whilst condeming other regimes for thier use of it, the height of hypocrisy if you ask me.
Inference of guilt is not proof , it makes a joke of the supposed democratic practice of assuming innocence till PROVEN guilty.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dream of the iris
You could do about 10 seconds worth of research and find out that this story IS NOT OPEN AND SHUT. This thread should be moved to the conspiracy section. There is a wealth of information available on this innocent little schoolgirl.
P.S.
For some bizarre reason, Germany had at one point sent people to Gitmo to participate in interrogations with this turd. This is not something that is normal for Germany, they are not allowed to assist in any other countries legal activities if they use the death penalty. So they must be dillusional too? Or maybe they just let him go to follow him. Whatever happened, I do not buy the premise of this article, but hey, at least it gives people a chance to post hateful things about the U.S. !!! After all it is a cannabis site huh?:mad:
The German BKA Dossier on Murat Kurnaz
John Rosenthal | Bio | 21 Jun 2007
WPR Blog
As of 2002, Germany's Federal Office of Criminal Investigations (BKA) classified former Guantanamo inmate and current German media star, Murat Kurnaz, as a security risk. (On Kurnaz in the German media, see the accompanying article "Guantanamo Tales.") This classification was based on a series of police findings linking Kurnaz to Islamic extremist milieus in Germany: including to persons who are linked in turn to the "Hamburg Cell" that planned the 9/11 terrorist attacks. The relevant facts were presented by BKA Deputy Director Bernhard Falk in March, during hearings held before a German parliamentary committee investigating the Kurnaz case. They have been summarized in a March 22 press release issued by committee member Thomas Oppermann of the Social Democratic Party.
Despite their being made public, these facts have had astonishingly little impact on the coverage of Kurnaz's case in the German media and, in particular, on the customary depiction of Kurnaz as an "innocent" victim who, in the words of Luzia Braun of German public television ZDF, "had nothing to do with terrorism." Perhaps more astonishingly still, they have been entirely ignored by the American news media. In order to rectify the latter situation, World Politics Review here presents a complete English translation of Thomas Oppermann's summary of the contents of the BKA file on Murat Kurnaz:
The classification of Murat Kurnaz as a security risk was based on the following findings, among others:
- On October 3, 2001 - three weeks after the September 11 terrorist attacks - Kurnaz set off to Pakistan with his friend Selcuk Bilgin, without saying goodbye to his family or informing his school. He broke off his course of studies in midstream. According to his mother, he purchased heavy boots and two pairs of binoculars immediately prior to his departure.
- Kurnaz's and Bilgin's airplane tickets were paid for by Sofyen Ben Amor. In a telephone conversation with the Bremen-based preacher of hate Ali Miri that was wiretapped by the police, Ben Amor described himself as a "Taliban."
- According to his mother, in the weeks prior to his departure, Kurnaz "was brainwashed" by Ali Miri at the Abu-Bakr Mosque in Bremen. The Bremen police continue to assume still today that Kurnaz was radicalized by Ali Miri. Also according to the assessment of both [the German foreign intelligence service] the BND and [the German domestic intelligence service] the BfV, Kurnaz's biography follows a typical path of radicalization and "awakening."
- Independently of one another, two direct witnesses have declared to the Bremen police that Kurnaz approved of the September 11 terrorist attacks, describing them as "God's will."
- On October 3, 2001, the brother of Selcuk Bilgin notified the Federal Police [which is responsible for border security in Germany] that Selcuk "is following a friend to Afghanistan, in order to fight." His later attempts to relativize this declaration have been dismissed as not credible by the police. The wife of Bilgin, moreover, has confirmed to Kurnaz's mother that Bilgin and Kurnaz wanted to go to Afghanistan.
- Bilgin was arrested at the airport and thus prevented from embarking on his voyage with Kurnaz. Later, in 2003, the police determined that he was continuing to try to recruit young, inexperienced Muslims for Jihad at the Abu-Bakr Mosque. Thus Ali T., who on April 25, 2003 hijacked a bus in Bremen, stated to the police that Bilgin had awakened in him the desire to become a Mujahideen through conversations and prayers and by showing him propaganda videos. According to Ali T., Bilgin promised that he would have him trained as a fighter in Pakistan or Afghanistan, just as he had done in the past with Murat Kurnaz. The training, Bilgin is reported to have said, would be financed by Al Qaida. The Bremen police thus assumed that after his failed attempt to travel with Kurnaz, Bilgin had been promoted from a prospective fighter to a "Recruiter/Logistics Specialist."
- According to police investigations, there are numerous links between the Taliban Sofyen Ben Amor, who purchased Kurnaz's plane tickets, and the "Hamburg Cell" [which planned the 9/11 attacks]. Thus, for example, Ben Amor's telephone number was found in an address book that was seized during a Hamburg raid carried out as part of the Federal District Attorney's investigation against, among others, Ramzi Bin Al-Shibh in connection with the attacks of September 11, 2001.
The police have determined, moreover, that up until September 11, 2001, Sofyen Ben Amor frequently withdrew money in the vicinity of the Al-Quds Mosque in Hamburg. It was at this mosque that the "Hamburg Cell" formed around Mohammad Atta.
Finally, there are also numerous pieces of evidence in the file that indicate that Ben Amor, Bilgin, and Kurnaz have links to Mohammad Haydar Zammar, one of the most important recruiters of the "Hamburg Cell."
So, this "innocent little school girl" might not have been so innocent after all. The fact that anyone would take his word for it is flat out stupid. He should still be layed out getting a nice drink. Fuck'em.
Torturing people in order to get them to confess is a despicable practice by any so called civilised country so please explain to me why America should be allowed to do something they condemn others for ?
It's pretty hard to take the moral highground when it's so obvious that you are as bad or worse than those you criticise wouldn't you say?
Talk about double standards. :wtf:
As for the reliability of security forces information I can say only one thing ,does anyone even remember WMD ?
The propoganda machine drones on.
I sometimes get the feeling I'm living George Orwells nightmare.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 8182KSKUSH
The behaviour of the US goverment gives people reason to challenge the US .
Quote:
Originally Posted by psychocat
I love it when you challenge an idea with actual facts and information, and the only response is a flowery worded anti-America rant, that has nothing to do with or addressing any of the SPECIFICS OF WHAT WAS BEING DISCUSSED. At least it's appealing to the sheeple that subscribe to the "I hate America" ideology! I am sure none of them will notice that you basically just repeated the same rubbish over again while not acknowledging anything that could put into question the premise of this thread. Just pretend there is nothing to the contrary, and repeat, "It's all Bush's fault. WMD's, Katrina, Blah blah blah blah blah."Quote:
Originally Posted by psychocat
Psycho this is not directed at you personally, it is a characterization of how liberals tend to carry on debate in general, it just so happens you provided a real time example.:D
Rhetoric and nothing more.
If you gave even one answer to what I asked I wouldn't feel the need to repeat myself.
As I asked (and you failed to answer) how can America call itself civilised when it advocates torture?
How is it possible to take a moral stand when your (your being the US gov) methods are no better than those you denounce?
Why should America be allowed to torture ?
Are you trying to say that all the inmates of GB are guilty until proven innocent ?
And if that's the case doesn't it go against the normal practice of innocent until PROVEN guilty?
Rights for all is Americas stand isn't it?
What about the rights of those detained?
You say plenty but fail to adress what are very valid points.
If you would be so kind as to make an attempt to answer at least one thing :
I do not hate America , I do however hate hypocrisy and blatant misuse of power. the "you hate America" card whenever someone questions thier practices is growing extremely old BTW
Gauntanamo Bay is an atrocity and those who support it's methods are no better than the people they are supposed to oppose.
As I already stated I have no faith in anything the security forces have to say as they have already proven how inept they are. They remind me of the Ministry of Misinformation from 1984.
Liberal is something anyone who knows me would never use to describe me :D
Do I understand correctly that you are in Europe? How do they use the terms, Liberal and Conservative there? Do they have the same meaning? Anyways, this very first statement where you dismiss out of hand anything that is said that contradicts what you believe, and label it as "rhetoric" is fairly common here in the U.S. among what are called "Democrats/Liberals". I have seen people from all political beliefs do it, but it seems to be a mainstay of the "Liberal Playbook". Really I mean no personal offense to you. It does seem like you want me to address what you said point by point so I will, please don't take it personally though.:jointsmile:Quote:
Originally Posted by psychocat
I am confused, you didn't repeat any questions? Just statements? I thought your question were rhetorical, they are legit questions, but have been debated up and down forever now. What I was getting at was the fact that there is a large post with quite a bit of contrary information, or info that is nicely left out of the first post here, that may alter some perception of the premise that "America Kidnapped and Tortured an Innocent Man". As soon as I provide any idea to the contrary, and point out it took about 10 seconds worth of reading to figure out that this story is not at all the whole story, the immediate response had no more than 3 sentences before ranting off about "remember WMD's".:wtf:Quote:
Originally Posted by psychocat
Wow, remember what I posted a couple of hours ago? No. Yeah you may have to read it first huh? Fact of the matter is, this guy was very likely not at all innocent, and likely is one lucky s.o.b. (Maybe) Fact is, you have to believe without question everything that he says about what "supposedly" happen to him. Fact is, liberals tend to be the first people to jump on the band wagon anytime an excuse to have "anti-America Rants" presents itself. Why bother checking to see the merits of the story? Supports my world belief!! I will not question it!!! Rant Rant, Remember WMD's" Do you see what I was getting at?:D
As for your direct question, I do not believe that "America advocates torture" which is I believe, a subjective statement that you are propping up as fact to support your own opinion. Of course you can believe whatever you want more power to you, I just think you are dead wrong. So I don't believe we advocate torture, and we are civilized obviously. Start a whole new thread just on "Is America a civilized Nation" if you want, I am sure it would be active.:D
Wow, well buddy, these are all 3 basically the same as the first question I just answered. You are restating that you believe "America advocates torture" multiple times. Again this is common practice of liberals in America when they do not want to actually have a real conversation. In this instance, you are using this tactic, whilst avoiding saying anything about the counter article that I posted here? Which is why I implied earlier that you didn't read it. That was just a joke, I am sure you did read it, and I am sure that you purposefully have failed to directly address it with regard to what this post is about, and have instead to pull out your "America advocates torture", "Remember WMD's" , blah, blah, on and on. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by psychocat
Yeah, I am good with that, fuck'em!:thumbsup:Quote:
Originally Posted by psychocat
You are correct, that is how OUR legal system works in America for Americans. As much as I know you wish for it, unfortunately America can't guarantee rights for Americans to everyone else in the world. Especially people that are AT WAR AGAINST US!@! So again, I say, fuck'em!:thumbsup:Quote:
Originally Posted by psychocat
Um....right, but this douche bag is actually German, not American. Remember, (again, common liberal tactic of moving on to a whole different debate once challenged with reality)!:thumbsup:Quote:
Originally Posted by psychocat
Again, FUCK'EM!!!! :jointsmile:Quote:
Originally Posted by psychocat
Really, honestly, I just addressed everything you asked me to, as respectfully as possible for me.:thumbsup: Now I hope that you are kind enough to do likewise, read the original counter post, and ADDRESS THAT, INSTEAD OF WHAT YOU DID!:DQuote:
Originally Posted by psychocat
Enough said, whether or not you hate America is for you to know, I don't care if you do or not to be honest. I hate Europe it sucks, but it's just an opinion. I wouldn't exactly rant on and on about my personal OPINIONS that may or may not have anything relevant with the discussion. You basically just made alot of very broad, non specific, un-related to this post statements of your personal opinion. I am sorry I called you a liberal, you are what you are I guess, if you say you aren't great whatever the fuck, I don't care. I was just characterizing what you were saying, if you aren't what we here would call a "liberal" then you sure do repeat alot of their rhetoric and propaganda, which I can now fairly say about your posts, since I actually addressed every point you made point by point. Then I can actually support that statement that you are repeating the liberal political dogma!:DQuote:
Originally Posted by psychocat
Cheers Mate
If that's your idea of respect then you really need to look up the definition of the word.
As I said you are using double standards , it isn't okay for others to use torture but it is okay for America.
Are you denying it happens ?
Dispatches: Kidnap and Torture American Style from Channel4.com
Waterboarding is torture regardless of your beliefs.
Are you trying to tell me that only Americans should be assumed innocent until proven guilty ?
If that is the case I find it simply unnaceptable. Ever heard the saying "practice what you preach" ?
America proclaims that everyone (not just Americans) has basic human rights such as presumed innocent till proven guilty and yet you seem to believe that isn't so. Why?
You even go so far as to say MIGHT not be so innocent, that in itself allows for the idea that they MIGHT not be so guilty as you believe.
Again it comes back to one set of rules for America and another for non Americans , surely that goes against the American idea of equality for all.
How about kidnapping of "suspects" ?
Statewatch News Online: Shannon used as kidnap operation stop-over - two men abducted from Sweden to Egypt
I'm sure if someone tried to kidnap an American citizen suspected of terrorism abroad the US goverment would be extremely pissed off.
Your logic is seriously deficient IMO. :D
A country cannot say "we promote the idea of equality for all" and then not actualy afford it . That's called hypocrisy.
It also reminds me of yet another Orwell book.
Animal Farm
"All animals are equal but some animals are more equal than others." - :wtf:
Sound familiar ?
So I am right? You are going to continue to rant on and you are not going to comment on the article I posted, and you are going to continue to try and make the discussion about anything but what is was specifically about? Good to know, I won't be holding my breath waiting for you to say anything new or insightful, or comment directly on the article that I posted.:D Thanks for re-inforcing my beliefs though!:jointsmile:
:DBe sure that in the future when you ask someone to do something you are willing to do the same.
Cherrio
I read this and couldn't agree with you more!:DQuote:
Originally Posted by psychocat
So if this guy is guilty of being a terrorist or having links to terrorism why is he free.Come on KUSH tell me why.He was brought infront of a kangaroo court and let go lol why???You say your country doesnt advocate torture thats B.S and you know it.Your country has kidnapped and tortured innocent canadians and europeans and for you to say we dont advocate torture is unbelievable.No wonder the rest of the world has such high regards for America
All I know is, thankfully, the United States has not been attacked since 9/11. I live less than 10 miles from Ground Zero, was in very close proximity when the attacks of 1993 and 2001 occurred, and have no sympathy for the people who wish to engage in more such actions against our society.Quote:
Originally Posted by fishman3811
Rather than engage them, I'd rather boycott the entire Muslim world until they stop these threats themselves, but apparently nobody in the West wants us to do this - so there will be dangerous people hunted down and sometimes treated rough. I do not think that they deserve to benefit from the rights stipulated in the Geneva convention because they have no intention of ever adhering to ethics that are in accordance with it. They do not recognize it, or anything resembling a similar agreement, so we must do the best we can under the circumstances.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fishman3811
Who knows? I don't? Maybe zeee Germans had something to do wis it. :) I dunno but really, there is obviously more to the story than the initial article would have you believe, and that means that the author is either ignorant, or agenda driven. IMO Yark yark! I think it is the second option, and it's pretty obvious. IMHO yark yark!:D
The individual stories of people that are vacationing at Gitmo are likely all very intresting though.
I wish them all.....
FUCK'EM!:jointsmile:
BREUKEN how can you boycott the middle east??We get most of our oil from the middle east soo that will never happen......
Actually the U.S. imports most of it's oil from Canada eh?!
hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm interesting indeed!
I adressed your post by drawing your attention to the fact that innocent until proven guilty is an American idea, you seem to be an anomoly in that you believe the opposite to be the case unless the suspect is American.Quote:
Originally Posted by 8182KSKUSH
I get the distinct feeling you are xenophobic to the extreme.
If (as you believe) the person in question is so guilty then why was he released , lack of actual evidence perhaps ?
Guilt by association is hardly proof either , if that was the case then Bush and his family would be guilty of being associated with terrorists wouldn't they.
BTW this thread is as much about GB as it is about the one person in the OP, that is why my comments adress the whole issue rather than just one case.
This issue is bigger than just the mistreatment of one man.
I bet i could get anyone of you guys to plead guilty to anything. Say raping babies. Give me a month or two with you and needle nose pliers and you'll be confessing.
Well saidQuote:
Originally Posted by DropDeadFred
I have a nasty streak a mile wide and have extensive knowledge in hurting people and everyone has thier breaking point.
I wonder how many of those advocating the use of torture as an interrogation technique would still say it's okay if it were themselves or a member of thier family on the recieving end of such treatment.
Kush i know you guys get alot of oil from us and thanks btw but its only a small fraction of what you consume.Canada supplys around 18% of your oil imports......
It's only proving psychocats point. If you look at it with objectivity, you would realize the evidence against Murat Kurnaz is circumstancial at best. It's enough to warrant investigation and putting him a watch list based on the evidence. It's not beyond doubt. You should answer his question, innocent before proven guilty, or guilty before proving innocent?Quote:
Originally Posted by 8182KSKUSH
I'm not saying that they had to right to hold him, but being sent to GITMO based on flimsy evidence? Ridiculous.