Clinton Joins McCain on Gas-Tax Holiday; Obama Opposes

Policy differences between Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton have been far and few, but a new one emerged on Monday over a proposed gas tax holiday. Obama says heâ??s against while Clinton says sheâ??s in favor, putting her on the same side as John McCain, who proposed such a holiday last week.

Gas prices could hit $4 this summer, raising the ire of voters and putting pressure on presidential candidates to promise immediate action.

Speaking on Larry King Live on Monday night, Clinton outlined a series of steps to address the issue at the beginning of the show, reflecting the growing importance of pocketbook concerns among voters. â??I would also consider a gas tax holiday, if we could make up the lost revenues from the Highway Trust Fund,â?� she said, without specifying how to make up those lost revenues.

Earlier Monday at a community college in the Philadelphia suburbs, Obama rejected a tax holiday as bad economic policy. â??Iâ??ve said I think John McCainâ??s proposal for a three-month tax holiday is a bad idea,â?� Obama said, warning consumers that any price cut would be short lived before costs spike back.
Washington Wire - WSJ.com : Clinton Joins McCain on Gas-Tax Holiday; Obama Opposes

NO REASON to give the tax payers temporary relief on gas prices? Obama....the picture says it all.

Have a good one!:s4:

3 months? That's pointless

It really makes no difference. Do all that work, maybe get gas down to $3 dollars a gallon, and then it'll shoot back up. Every oil carrier in the world knows how dependant we are on oil (especially foreign oil) and they use it to their advantage. Make as many holidays as you want, it won't make the slightest difference. Until we reduce or eliminate our need for foreign oil, or find some sort of replacement, gasoline will only continue to get more expensive, because we're lazy enough and stupid enough that we'll pay any price. Either that, or we'll kill you for it. Whichever comes first.

instead of a tax break for afew months totaling maybe $200. ohhh what help to the average american. rape the average american then give a tinny cut for afew months. if you agree thats snobish
why dont the congress/senate do something about all the large profits the oil companys make. they have already made more profit this quarter this year than all of last year. theres something wrong with that.

Look at the truckers that have to fill up two 200 gallon tanks, that's about $75 dollars saved.

Oil companies make the same percentage of profit no matter what the price of oil is. Granted, they are making more but who actually is reaping the rewards? The same people that the left love to protect....Iran and Venezualla!

Report: Iran's president says oil prices too low

President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad told an oil and gas exhibition in Tehran on Friday that he thought the commodity still had to "discover its real value," according to the Web site of Iran's state-run television.
The Associated Press: Report: Iran's president says oil prices too low

NOW lets pull out of Iraq and let the supply of oil be cut by 3 million barrels/day. That should help out the prices.

Have a good one!:s4:

Instead of this ploy for votes, more money and research needs to be put into research for other alternatives like hydrogen power.
Oil is gonna eventually run out in a few decades so we might as well get the ball rolling and stop procrastinating

In this case, I agree with Obama. You are essentially trading lower gas for less maintenance of roads.

There's plenty of other taxes that should be cut rather than gas or allocate some federal highway funds from other taxes.

It's quite sickening for me to think back to when the oil companies had such a spike in profits and the government said they were going to force the companies to use the excessive profits to improve refineries so that the cost of gasoline would go down...Seems that they instead gave the companies a high five and joined teams with them after discovering just how much money could be made...Sounds like the American way of government to me.

I dont understand why yours or my government dont just say ok car companies you want to sell cars in north america then they have to be plug in electric cars.The technology is there we do have plug in electric cars that work just fine.So instead of giving our money to the arabs we could keep our money in our own country and help ourselves.CAN you imagine the shock on our arab friends when we say sorry no more oil for us go shove it..Im paying 5$ a gallon up here in canada its fucking ridiculouse...its got to stop

This summer Im thinking of buying an old diesel and converting it to run on free french fry oil. Best investment ever

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Originally Posted by zeitgeist

This summer Im thinking of buying an old diesel and converting it to run on free french fry oil. Best investment ever

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I've been looking at the same thing. Just like with growing, this needs alot of research. Here's a link I've been checking out:
Make your own biodiesel: Journey to Forever

Have a good one!:s4:

Thanks! Added to my favorites

Ill have sooo much weed money!!!! HAHAhA:thumbsup:

yeah, throw a crack addict a rock that always helps...not.

Here in Indiana we went from paying around 33 to 37 cents per gallon in the 70's and I can remember still getting gas for under a dollar in 99. The price jump in gas from 2000 to 08 is insane! Screw their gas holiday! I want prices to drop or get us off this modern day motor. We can put a man into space, but we can't get off this modern day oil consuming engine?:wtf: Something just doesn't make sense.

So I found out a guy already invented an engine that runs off of water. He was convieniently poisened and all his work confiscated though

Quote:

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Originally Posted by zeitgeist

Instead of this ploy for votes, more money and research needs to be put into research for other alternatives like hydrogen power.
Oil is gonna eventually run out in a few decades so we might as well get the ball rolling and stop procrastinating

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guess how hydorgen is made... ill give you a hint
its made using oil

Quote:

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Originally Posted by fishman3811

I dont understand why yours or my government dont just say ok car companies you want to sell cars in north america then they have to be plug in electric cars.The technology is there we do have plug in electric cars that work just fine.So instead of giving our money to the arabs we could keep our money in our own country and help ourselves.CAN you imagine the shock on our arab friends when we say sorry no more oil for us go shove it..Im paying 5$ a gallon up here in canada its fucking ridiculouse...its got to stop

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smells like socialism to me. and FUCK THAT.


how about we start drilling our own land.
the problem with alot of americans is that they dont give a fuck where the oil comes from, as long as it doesnt come from us. that would be bad for the caribou.
were ok with drilling the balls out of the desert half a world away, but not anwar.(the oil would make the snow look icky)

we need to drill in alaska and anywhere else we can (within reason)

and in the meantime, work or increasing the fuel effeciency of our cars( oil would last ALOT longer if we were rocking 125 mpg) and realistic alternative energies.

it seems like people are way over focused on just their car.

what about the house?
solar and wind turbine technology is becoming alot more accessible.
imagine if, through a combination of solar panels and wind turbines you could be completely off the energy grid.
or even get a monthly check from the energy company b/c you produced more energy than you consumed

THEN buying an electric car would be a good option, b/c it would run for free off your own energy source

i think people forget how much energy is used by things BESIDES cars.
lets have a lil broader view of this instead of trying to do everything at once.
we cant just change the way we get fuel from the same source

early morning stoned rant... but thats my :twocents:

and that picture of Obama is fucking HILARIOUS Psycho.
very awesome, might become my background on my computer

We're in the middle of a 3 trillion dollar war. That's $3,000,000,000,000 ... Now is not the time to be cutting any taxes at all, it's just plain fiscal irresponsibility. Besides, this is simply a game. Taxes will be cut on gas over the summer, only to be raised on something else... or worse, more money will be borrowed. The money WILL be collected regardless of how much McCain panders to people trying to get something for nothing... i.e. Republicans that want a 3 trillion dollar war and less taxes. How about McCain be a REAL Republican and insist that the government stop subsidizing oil? McCain is nothing but another corporate welfare moron.

I didn't vote for Bush, and he's got the worst approval rate since polling was invented, but we're all in this together. We can't keep pulling out the credit card and borrowing more money than we already do currently.

Name me one other time in history when we cut taxes during a war. The concept is insane. In fact, the income tax was started BECAUSE of war: the Civil War. The federal government attempted to start the income tax earlier but was defeated... during the War of 1812.

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Originally Posted by hanayama

guess how hydorgen is made... ill give you a hint
its made using oil

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There's multiple ways of producing hydrogen. The technology for making hydrogen from solar power (or any other type of renewable energy) has been around for decades. You could literally manufacture your own hydrogen in your house and power everything in your house, including your car. I really value my independence, so I really like this idea.

GM has mobilized half of it's fuel cell research staff to begin production for fuel cell cars. Once they're being mass produced, price will drop drastically. We're talking the next few years.

And what would be better than good ol' Made in the USA energy?

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Originally Posted by jamesia

There's multiple ways of producing hydrogen. The technology for making hydrogen from solar power (or any other type of renewable energy) has been around for decades. You could literally manufacture your own hydrogen in your house and power everything in your house, including your car. I really value my independence, so I really like this idea.

GM has mobilized half of it's fuel cell research staff to begin production for fuel cell cars. Once they're being mass produced, price will drop drastically. We're talking the next few years.

And what would be better than good ol' Made in the USA energy?

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did not know that
i just remember reading somewhere that the most effective way to make hydrogen right now is by using oil.

im not saying that hydrogen wont work.
................pause for joint rolling........................

i just think its too early to "put all our eggs in one basket"
i think we need to greatly increase our fuel efficiency and then see what works best.

we have enough oil to last us a couple more decades at least, im not saying we wait until were out, i just think that time alone will tell what our future is. time spent researching and debating and experimenting.
not time spent having governments tell me what kind of car to drive. Forcing a decision on all of us.
Capitalism....let the market/people decide. this shit works, i swear!

i will say tho, that hydrogen looks rather nice, considering the only emissions are water...i like that

The only actual 'flaw" in hydrogen is the lack of distribution infrastructure (hydrogen stations) and the potentially dangerous storage under pressure.

I don't think the gov has much actual control over the gas prices (aside from juggling taxes). TO say that the oil companies are still making the same profit as a percentage is just ludacris. As someone stated Q1 rofits this year are already way above last years.

A point no one has touched on is the other effects of having such a petrol driven world. In the US ~30% of kid now suffer from asthma and other respiratory problems are getting worse and worse. The environmental impact is not one to be taken lightly. Even if we have 25-50 years of oil left, do we have 25-50 years of healthly living left following the current trend?

Another excellent point is that far too many people are crusading about cars, where houses and businesses get most of their power from hydrocarbon fueled power plants. Having an electric car, while better than direct pertrol based, still uses hydrocarbon based fuels to provide the electricity.

The real solution lies in sources of energy that are cheap and lentiful. Solar and wind could be used to reduce the footprint of hydrocarbon based fuels, reduce building based enerygy costs (greatly) thus stimulating the ecomomy as well as creating a job market for solar/wind installers/consultants/etc.

My quick calculations could produce a solar/wind powered US (as far as homes and businesses) for at most 2 trillion dollars. THis number is conservativly high and takes no gov incentives/rebates into account. This sounds like a lot of money, but it does not need to all be paid at once, like the Iraq occupation (stopping being a war a looong time ago) we can slolwy pay into this project to complete it over the next 5 or so years.

Using grid tie systems to make sure few power plant workers lose their jobs as the power plant will still function to distribute the power as usual, but now the power will be generated off site from the plant itself. The plant can be fired as needed to fill in gaps of energy should they occur.

Ok, we would get a three month tax free period. Then what? We're back to paying prices even higher then before. Then what they raised taxes on to compensate will stay higher just because now that they did it it's easier to leave it higher and make the extra money. People that can afford it wont really notice, and the people that are getting the brunt of the high price effect wont have the means of actually doing anything about it except complain.

There is way too much money going to oil providers. There is no reason for them to be making more money then you could spend in a lifetime.

So instead of a short term relief only to be followed by financial hardship because of the end of the relief. How about we just figure something out that will be a much more long term solution.

It is impossible to just say, "hey, start making hybrids and cars that only run on electricity". Car companies do not have good enough technology yet for that. They are making their way, but it will take time. Also, you need oil to produce the energy to charge the vehicles. Yeah, not as much but we would still need it. How about we start by only using synthetic oils in our cars, that would cut down tremendously on the use of crude oil.

It's all about finding a solution, not a gimmick.

Instead of removing the gas tax for 3 months(thats what pays to pave and repair the roads), and tax the oil companies for that money up front, how about this...

As a small business owner, I pay over 30% in just federal taxes on my *NET PROFIT*....maybe the oil companies should be taxed the same?? If you take a 3rd of theyre *NET PROFIT* in taxes, they would "only" be making 30 BILLION DOLLARS profit per oil company per quarter(dial 1-900-waahhh). Tax on their net profits can't be passed on to the end user in higher prices, because its on their net profits, not gross reciepts. If they tried to pass it on, they will pay more taxes on the higher prices. If they drop the prices, they won't have to pay so much in taxes. Is everybody confused now??

I figure its pretty simple... the more profit they make, the more money they pay in taxes. As I said before, with me being a small business owner, it sucks when I have to take everything I have save up to use for replacing worn out tools and/or equipment, of another service truck to grow my business, I end up having to send that money to the feds in taxes. Lets give a little of that tax liability to the oil companies.

Mississipi Steve good bloody point i too am sick of these oil companies not paying there fair share of taxes and yet reap record profits fuck that shit.The tax burden then goes down to the little guy because the wealthy dont pay their fair share.....

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Originally Posted by JaySin

It is impossible to just say, "hey, start making hybrids and cars that only run on electricity". Car companies do not have good enough technology yet for that. They are making their way, but it will take time. Also, you need oil to produce the energy to charge the vehicles. Yeah, not as much but we would still need it. How about we start by only using synthetic oils in our cars, that would cut down tremendously on the use of crude oil.

It's all about finding a solution, not a gimmick.

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While I agree that the oil companies make too much money, your idea of finding a solution is so far from off it isn't even funny. I don't want to come off sounding like a flame, but we have had the technology for an electric car since the 70s. We also have had thermal-solar energy implemented in a power plant outside of LA that produces a fair amount of energy.

This idea that we need some sort of new invention to solve this problem is getting on my nerves. We HAVE the tech to make cars that run perfectly well either solely on electricity, or as a hybrid. We can create the electricity without hydrocarbon based fuels NOW.

If you want to know where the real problem lies you have too look back at what those oil companies are making so much of, money. The ONLY reason to not move forward with the "new" 30 year old technologies is that oil companies don't want you to. They lobby the car industry just as much as the government. When a car company is getting kickbacks for producing hydrocarbon fueled cars from the big oil companies, what incentive do they have to mass produce an electric car?

The kicker? Wind, solar, thermal-solar, and many other renewable resource sources of energy would end up being CHEAPER than what you pay now. For example, most of the US pays an average of 15 cents per kilowatt hour of electricity. A home can be outfitted with a renewable photo voltaic (solar) array for about 30,000 dollars upfront cost that would produce 100% of the required energy for that home. The government (state and federal) off rebates that can get over 50%. This would then let you pay basically 0 cents per kilowatt hour (a small grid hookup fee is still applicable, roughly 5 dollars).

The payback period on this should be about 8-12 years. That is the point when you would have spent the same amount on your electricity bill. After that you will be saving money. PV arrays are rated at 90% efficiency for the first 20 years, and then about 80% over the next 20 years.

Yes there IS an upfront cost in both commercial and residential switching to renewable energy sources, but in the long run it is not only more environmentally sound, it is also flat out more economical.

I've said it a million times before, but all that tax rebate money and the money being hemorrhaged in the middle east could have easily paid for a HUGE conversion of the US from hydrocarbon based to renewable energy. But the war is just an artificial way to stimulate the price of gas, and make people OK with the hikes. IF we are all driving electric cars and producing our own energy, how does Exxon continue making billions of dollars? Answer: they don't.

I'm not looking for new technology. I probably follow the automotive industry closer then anyone I know. Although, everything I have read about vehicle technology has said that electric car technology just isn't ready. The batteries would be too costly and weigh too much. I've read it many times before, so if the technology does exist, please point me to where I can read about it. I'm not saying you are wrong at all, I just want you to prove me wrong. I would love to know about this technology so I could further my knowledge on how far automotive technology has come.

I do agree with you that we have the technology to generate power without fossil fuels. I live in a state that has the potential to generate massive amounts of wind power. I also agree that the only reason we are slaves to the oil companies is because of all the money the greedy bastards are making. As long as we have people that are money hungry I really don't see us making the progress that is possible. Not unless we put someone in power that realizes these are the right things to do, instead of just the profitable things to do.

There are so many things we could use mismanaged money for that our country could probably be completely dependent by now if we wouldn't have spent billions of dollars on wars that don't even make sense. The only thing the government is doing with their wars is pissing off other countries along with its own people.

Instead of paying for a war on drugs, we could provide the nation with free schooling instead of making people figure out how to pay for college. Most of the people I know have either just not gone to school or dropped out because they could not afford it. Even with federal funding and grants. Yet we are wasting money on a war that puts innocent citizens of our own country behind bars, sometimes leaving their families to fend for themselves and making things worse then before.

I've wandered off-topic, but it really does disgust me where this country has gone. I realize you are not trying to flame me and I hope you realize I'm not trying to flame you. It's just that people like us need to somehow get together to change how things have been running. This is something I believe in to the point that I am very sure that someday I will be one of the front runners in a group of activists that will hopefully change this country for the better.

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Originally Posted by eggrole1

I've said it a million times before, but all that tax rebate money and the money being hemorrhaged in the middle east could have easily paid for a HUGE conversion of the US from hydrocarbon based to renewable energy. But the war is just an artificial way to stimulate the price of gas, and make people OK with the hikes. IF we are all driving electric cars and producing our own energy, how does Exxon continue making billions of dollars? Answer: they don't.

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Dude, the electric car would be lucky to make 30 MPH, let alone drive on a highway. The technology could be used in urban areas. It's still limited technology.

None the less, you are right, some of the funds from defense and health and human services should be allocated research and implementation of renewable energy sources. The funds in those two sectors are excessive and dragging down America.

Say what you want about oil companies but they do provide a shitload of high paying jobs for Americans. I think that's a great thing.

thcbongman dude there is an electric car that is faster than a brand new Porshe.Its a company in America or France i cant remember but this car is all electric and its fast.

Yups gas is over $4 here.

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Originally Posted by fishman3811

thcbongman dude there is an electric car that is faster than a brand new Porshe.Its a company in America or France i cant remember but this car is all electric and its fast.

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True, but the batteries are laptop batteries and they even said they would be very expensive to replace. It also only lasts 200 miles if you don't get on it a lot. They are hoping that by the time they batteries need to be replaced that it will be cheaper to manufacture them.

This is the car that is based off the Lotus Elise. You might be talking of a different one, cause I don't think this one is made in America or France. I could look in the magazine I have but I don't know where it is at the moment.

The car you guysa re talking about is the Tzero it is quite old actually tzero - Efficiency

It is fast and efficient, with a stated range of 300 miles on a charge. Really who needs to go more than 300 miles a day? My commute is a little long and I go 50 miles a day total. There is reference to busses in Nepal that are 100% electric and run continuously all day except they are stopped to recharge twice a day for 3 hours. The argument of range is really a nonissue unless you are a long range driver/delivery/etc.

Who Misrepresented the Facts About the Electric Car?
There are some really good points here and it references the documentary "Who Killed The Electric Car?" which is pretty good from what I can remember, but it has been a while since I saw it.

I don't think it is going to get any better any time soon. Hard for us now on fixed retirement incomes. But I see where Congress just voted to quit putting 70,000 barrels a day in the Gulf Coast Salt Domes for reserves. And there is a move to get employers to pay for gas to work....

I have mixed emotions about the oil companies because one of them owe me a pension when I turn 65. So in a way I am glad they are making money and my pension is secure..... But most people I know "working people" are struggling these days.

And I just inhereted a part of a pumping oil well in Texas....so I Hope my inheritance from oil....will pay my higher petro cost....so I don't have to give up weed..LOL! WEED OR PETRO is my question. I guess I will walk and ride the bus before I give up my MMJ! :hippy:

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Originally Posted by kassidy

I don't think it is going to get any better any time soon. Hard for us now on fixed retirement incomes. But I see where Congress just voted to quit putting 70,000 barrels a day in the Gulf Coast Salt Domes for reserves.

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The Strategic Petroleum Reserve (SPR) is an emergency petroleum store maintained by the United States Department of Energy.
Strategic Petroleum Reserve - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I'm hoping that Bush hits the big ol' veto button on this one. This reserve is for emergencies. People state that the relief on the gas tax is a waste of time...what good is another 70,000 barrels/day going to be if we have no way of refining it within' our borders?

Let shit hit the roof with one of our major suppliers and we'll find out in a hurry how critical this reserve is.

Have a good one!:s4:

Yeah 70,000 per day will do jackshit ...The electric batteries in cars are basicly the same as whats in your computer but larger,litiuaniun batteries (bad spelling) but they only last soo many years before they have to replaced and my guess is that it would be expensive to replace.From what i know about hybrid cars the batteries in them have to be replaced every 5 years at a cost of $4000.00.So the money you save in gas youll have to put into batteries which is a crock of shit and the hybrid cars only get slightly better gas milage i think 40-50 mpg where my car gets 35 mpg

Your lucky to have the luxury of driving a fuel efficient car, I have to drive either a truck or a big van to carry tools, equipment and parts to my customers. I did try to get the most fuel efficient truck I could when I bought my Tundra 3 years ago (6 cyl with manual trans). I need to buy another vehicle for personal use, but with the high price of fuel, poor economy, and the rediculous ammount of taxes I have to pay (33%), I just can't afford to buy one. I figure the oil companies have 2 more price increases coming before Memorial Day to bring the price over $4.00/gal for regular.

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Originally Posted by eggrole1

The car you guysa re talking about is the Tzero it is quite old actually tzero - Efficiency

It is fast and efficient, with a stated range of 300 miles on a charge. Really who needs to go more than 300 miles a day? My commute is a little long and I go 50 miles a day total. There is reference to busses in Nepal that are 100% electric and run continuously all day except they are stopped to recharge twice a day for 3 hours. The argument of range is really a nonissue unless you are a long range driver/delivery/etc.

Who Misrepresented the Facts About the Electric Car?
There are some really good points here and it references the documentary "Who Killed The Electric Car?" which is pretty good from what I can remember, but it has been a while since I saw it.

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The car I was talking is going to be produced for sales but is not out yet. That looks more like a project someone built. Damn, I wish I could remember the name of it...

K, it's a Tesla Roadster.

YouTube - Tesla Roadster Test Drive - 2007 Future in Review Conference

The gas tax holiday is a gimmick and wouldn't make much difference --- the government does not need to add more to our national debt to bring us this gimmick just so they can look like they are "doing something." I felt the same way about the "stimulous" tax rebate gimmick. The government borrows money from other governments (mostly the Chinese) so that they can give us cash --- it will come back to us in the form if higher taxes later to pay back the loan plus interest.

Long term, I don't think the oil companies need the subsidies and tax breaks they get. They are making plenty of money without taxpayers adding to their profits. If we are going to sudsidize energy production, it should be in a from that adds to our long-term energy independence and sustainability. Things like solar energy, wind, geothermal, etc. These systems where you pay for the equipment once and then it just makes energy for the cost of maintenance, without any fuels added, are the way to go.

I also like a lot of the technologies that recover fuel from waste, like methane recovery from landfills --- the local garbage company is soon going to add a liquification facility to our local landfill to liquify methane and use it to fuel their fleet of garbage trucks. Waste Mgmt. Plans Landfill Gas-to-Fuel Plant in California | GreenBiz.com And there are methane digesters that take organic waste and ferment it into methane in a controlled way too, rather than just piping it out of the landfill.

There is a company that has a prcess that can turn just about anything organic into oil --- garbage, tires, sewage, slaughterhouse waste. Their pilot program concentrated mostly on slaughterhouse waste, because it has a lot of fat that is already halfway to oil. Here's the Discover magazine articel where i heard about it: Anything Into Oil | Alternative Energy | DISCOVER Magazine Here is the company's website: Changing World Technologies, Inc.

I also like the cars that run on used vegetable oil, or on biodeisel from waste oil. But I'm not as much in favor of the biofuel craze --- grwing agricultural crops for use as biodeisel or ethanol. In the future those might become more benign with technologies to break down cellulose into ethanol, but right now they are not a good environemental tradeoff.

Garbage is a problem, chciken guts are a problem, old used fryer oil is a problem. These technologioes that turn waste into fuels are amazing to me. They solve two problems at once. Now with fossil fuel getting so expensive, these other technologies can finally be economically viable.

The technology is already out there! You just have to look at who controls the market when it comes to being energy independent.

YouTube - water powered car

YouTube - Stanley Meyer's Water Powered Car - Part 1 of 2

YouTube - Stanley Meyer's Water Powered Car - Part 2 of 2

There are tons of information on this, and yes it is very possible.

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Originally Posted by fishman3811

thcbongman dude there is an electric car that is faster than a brand new Porshe.Its a company in America or France i cant remember but this car is all electric and its fast.

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I stand corrected.

Business 2.0: A car that could save the planetâ??fast - May. 5, 2006

thcbong yeah brother thats the car,bloody amazing also in the story i saw he was going into production sometime in the near future and making a roadster muscle car that you can drive on any street.But the price was around $80.000 but that will come down in the future as sales go up he said.Way too expensive for me though....