Bush pushes for NATO expansion

BUCHAREST, Romania - President Bush renewed urgent calls Wednesday for NATO nations to allow Ukraine and Georgia to start the admission process over Russian objections and to counter Osama bin Laden's latest threats to Europe by stepping up their efforts in Afghanistan.

Hoping to set the stage for a summit of leaders from the trans-Atlantic alliance here this week, Bush also said that he remained committed to building a U.S. missile defense system in Europe fiercely opposed by Moscow and that the United States would not endanger Iraq with precipitous U.S. troop withdrawals.

On the eve of his last NATO summit and anticipating a tense showdown over NATO expansion, Bush lobbied fellow leaders.

He argued that the alliance should be open to all European democracies, for now the former Soviet republics Ukraine and Georgia but also others in the future. Arguing against the misgivings from France and Germany that opening the process to Ukraine and Georgia could overly harm relations with Moscow, a needed energy supplier, Bush said a larger NATO is not a threat to Russia.

"We must make clear that NATO welcomes the aspirations of Georgia and Ukraine for membership in NATO and offers them a clear path forward toward that goal," the president said. "NATO membership must remain open to all of Europe's democracies that seek it, and are ready to share in the responsibilities of NATO membership."

But Russia is vehemently against extending NATO closer to its borders and has threatened to target Ukraine and Georgia with missiles if the plans go ahead. With nine ex-Soviet bloc countries already in the alliance, Moscow is sensitive to any further loss of influence in the former Soviet sphere, especially in places like Ukraine and Georgia that were at the heart of the one-time superpower.

Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov responded colorfully to Bush's address, calling the proposed expansion "artificial â?? and completely unnecessary" to today's anti-terror battles.

"What's happening will not (go) unanswered, I assure you," he said before the State Duma in Moscow. But we will respond to this pragmatically, not like a small child in school, who is offended by someone and slams the door and runs crying from the classroom."
Bush pushes for NATO expansion - Yahoo! News

Must be hard for the Russian leader see old pieces of the empire go to NATO. Considering their past relations with the Ukraine....I'd imagine this is VERY tough to swallow.

Have a good one!:s4:

Yes, this is going to piss the Russians off quite a bit. Ukraine and Georgia were actually part of the Soviet Union, right? Not just part of the Soviet bloc? When the article menitions other Soviet bloc countries, I think it is talking about countries like Poland and Czechoslovakia that were part of the Soviet bloc, but not IN the USSR. This would be a whole different level I think. Does anyone know if there are any other NATO members who were actually part of the USSR at one time?

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Does anyone know if there are any other NATO members who were actually part of the USSR at one time?

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yes there are. latvia and estonia

i still wonder how long its goin to be before we finally go to war with russia. i can see it looming on the horizon

President for life Putin has reason to be upset and so he should be.As far as a war with Russia whether it be in the distant future i hope would be improbable.But my money would be on Russia ( sorry Americans im not trying to be little you guys)but look at what they did against the Nazi war machine a far superior fighting force and the Russians kicked ass the Russians had the Nazis defeated long before America entered the war.By august 1944 Russia was attacking warsaw.The end was in sight for germany.

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Originally Posted by fishman3811

( sorry Americans im not trying to be little you guys)

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Our country may be small, at least when compared to Russia, but make no mistake that they don't want a one-on-one war with the U.S. Nobody does, except extremist nutbags. Anyway, I highly doubt it would be much of a ground war, but more like a nuclear pissing contest. The Soviets were afraid of us during the Cold War, and the Russians are afraid now. Remember the old saying "mutually assured destruction"? It still applies today. Honestly, the only way I ever see Russia getting the brass balls to declare war on us is if China, N. Korea, Iran, and a bunch of other Islamic countries all join in with them. Then we'd prepare to find out if WW4 really will eventually be fought with sticks and stones.

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Originally Posted by fishman3811

President for life Putin has reason to be upset and so he should be.As far as a war with Russia whether it be in the distant future i hope would be improbable.But my money would be on Russia ( sorry Americans im not trying to be little you guys)but look at what they did against the Nazi war machine a far superior fighting force and the Russians kicked ass the Russians had the Nazis defeated long before America entered the war.By august 1944 Russia was attacking warsaw.The end was in sight for germany.

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You gotta be kidding? Do you actually believe that? Stalin was moving all his war machine to Siberia and sacrificing his people to delay the onslaught of the Nazi's, and a MASS amount of his armor came from USA (tanks, planes, munitions, supplies) It is well. documented that he was teetering on the edge of surrender and it was only the ALLIES that kept him safe.

Do you not know how to read history other than HATE USA?

And dont think for 1 second Canada doesnt lick the liberties and spoils from the United States of America and enjoy its liberties because of our accomplishments.

Sure you can post infowars.com or prisonplanet.com, which seem (to me) do nothing but start out each article with questions and 'what ifs' then dive into the subject with the writers own views, why I can copy/paste TONS of stuff that is equally pro-usa - does that give it validity? NO.

I cant believe what I read here sometimes.

What are u dillusional Stalin was moving his factories to Siberia so that they could continue its fight against Germany and Siberia was out of the reach of Nazi bombers.I dont know where you get this mass amount of armor came from the states which is bullshit it wasnt the sherman tank that defeated the germans it was the superior T-34 TANK.Do u even know how many tanks and planes the British and Americans sent to germany?Well i do and it was a fraction of what the Riussians produced for instance in 1942 the Russians produced 12527 T-34 tanks in 1943 they produced 15821 T-34 and in 1944 they produced 14648 T-34 tanks.In comparision the Americans sent 4200 M4A2 TANKS to Russia.Now lets talk about facts 80% of German forces was destroyed fighting the Russians the other 20% that the Allies destroyed consisted mostly of Hitler-Jugend and local militia.If you check the list of German casualties on the western front you wont find any elite corps their.The Africa operation is different but in Africa Hitler used obsolete equipment because he had little abilities to reinforce them.So in conclusion yes the Allies did send equipment and lots of it but it was the Russian soldier and the Russian tank that defeated the best army in the world.By 1943 the Germans were retreating and the Russians where not stopping until they reached Berlin.

I dont post things by prison planet or info wars BTW

"I would be happy to be proved wrong but I do not expect MAP for Georgia and Ukraine," said NATO spokesman James Appathurai, referring to the Membership Action Plan sought by the two former-Soviet republics.

All 26 allies must agree for the expansion plan to move forward and talks over dinner Wednesday failed to find a breakthrough.
The Associated Press: NATO Divided on Georgia, Ukraine

And a big sigh of relief was heard coming out of Russia.....

Have a good one!:s4:

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Originally Posted by Humboldt215

Do you not know how to read history other than HATE USA?

And dont think for 1 second Canada doesnt lick the liberties and spoils from the United States of America and enjoy its liberties because of our accomplishments.



I cant believe what I read here sometimes.

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That makes two of us.
First of all...we have our own country, and our own freedoms, and we fought just as hard as any American in BOTH world wars. We don't owe our freedoms to you at all. In fact, if we have our freedoms because of you..how come you lost them and we still adhere to them?

And as for the 'hate America' history...do you ever read anything that isn't pro-America?? Not much, most likely.
There was no need to respond like that, and tell him to check his info, because it would appear you could use a little of your own advice.

uhm yeah

stalin was moving his factorys and forces into siberia. trying to do the same thing to the germans that they did to napoleon. trap him in the russian winter. but western rusia was on the verge of collapsing under the nazi forces, hitler did lose a massive amount of troops fighting in russia but lets not forget that by this time hitler was fightin on 2 fronts. he made his mistake ofcomiting troops to russia prematuraly. france and spain had already fallen and england was on there knees getting ready to surrender when low and behold the japanese jumped the gun and bombed pearl harbour. this brung america into the war. hitler DID NOT want america in it so soon. by americans arriving in europe it strenghtened the forces of england and the french underground to the point that hitler had to start falling back. and he had to go on the defense. thereby reducing the number of troops he could comit to the russian campaign. when he retreated from russia it was not because it was un winnable but because he was facing defeat on the western front. so he had to enforce his front. oh and one other thing during WW II the german tiger tank was th most advanced and sophisticated main battle tank in the world. the russia t-34 and the american sherman tanks COULD NOT penatrate the armour. the russian have always been known for producing mass amounts of junk equipment. when the sherman was outfitted in late 43 with an 80 mm (i beleive it was 80) to replace the 72 mm main gun that was when they became a threat to german armour. the only 2 peices of equipment the russians evermade worth a crap was the mig fighter and the ak-47.

for a truly unbiased perspective of nazi germany and hitler read the book "the rise and fall of the 3rd reich"

one other tidbit when hitler took czechlosovakia he did so with out firing a shot just the threat of attack was enough. when his own generals inspect the czech fortifications they all agreed that hed they held out the nazis would have been defeated right there.

Since when did this become a ww2 forum well anyway ill have to really disagree with you on the fact that the T-34s were junk.Yes they were hurriedly built and poorly finished by western standards but the T-34/76 was nevertheless a superb fighting machine.In 1943 the existing panzers couldnt adequately oppose against the T-34/76,the germans were forced to develop a new tank the panther.Also the T-34 was regarded as the worlds best tank at the time so it wasnt "junk".As far as Germany beig on the defensive in Russia due to the buildup of the American army in England is false.Hitler was on the defensive because Russia was kicking his ass most troops that were defending the western front were militia and hitler youth.The famed 12th SS panzer division that defended the western front was a Hitler youth division.The Sherman tank had a 75mm gun btw.In fact to destroy a german tiger tank the shermans had to hit it from the side or behind and yes the Tiger was the best tank of its day but soo few were actually produced.Any way it was the Allies that defeated Germany not one country alone defeated GermANY.Unless of course you grew up in America were you were taught otherwise

first off there was no t-34/76. i was in the military on a tank and i had to know the history of armour of every country. the t-34 was refitted and called a t-34-85 in 1944 after abandoning plans for the t-44.. in 1955 the russian built the t-54 and t-55 tank, wivh was replaced in 1962 by the t-62 and this was replaced by the t-64 and evntually the t-72. wich was then replaced by the t-80, built in 1976 and is the only one not to follow the dating pattern

the tiger 1 deisigned after the t-34, was built to stand up to and defeat the t-34. was in use from 1942 to 1945. many german tank division exceeded a 10:1 kill ratio some even as high as a 17:1 kill ratio. the germans in WW II are still regarded as the absulte best the world ahs ever seen when it comes to tank warfare. rommels stratagies are still used to this day by almost every country in the world.

many people beleive that the m-1 abrams is the best in world today but the israeli merkava way outclasses it.

also my apologies i see t-34/76 was refering to its gun size. but it was called just t-34 they did not redesignate till the main gun was refitted

also hitler did lose th russian front because of the americans once his troops were tied up on the western front he could not snd the needed reinforcments to russia. and no it was not 1 country that defeated hitler but the supply of troops that america sent gave a huge boost to the european forces and turned the tied.

^ y'all seem to have forgot one fact. this is not 1942.

those old conflicts were wars between Democracy and dictatorship. we won.

thanks for posting this ModFather, i hadn't even thought about Georgia and Ukraine helping us in Afganistan and Pakistan, or Bin Ladastan . . . :stoned:

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Originally Posted by fishman3811

President for life Putin has reason to be upset and so he should be.As far as a war with Russia whether it be in the distant future i hope would be improbable.But my money would be on Russia ( sorry Americans im not trying to be little you guys)but look at what they did against the Nazi war machine a far superior fighting force and the Russians kicked ass the Russians had the Nazis defeated long before America entered the war.By august 1944 Russia was attacking warsaw.The end was in sight for germany.

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The only reason the Russians were able to turn back the Germans was their winter. If Russia didn't have such a harsh winter the Germans would of steam rolled over them like they did the months before Winter. We (Americans) sent massive amounts of supplies to Russia to help them continue their offensive. Without it they probably still would of been able to stop the Germans (with the help of their winter of course) but, not continue to advance to Germany it self and ultimately Berlin. On the other hand without the Russians to tie up millions of troops on the eastern front Hitler would have been able to fortify the French coast into a impregnable fortress even more so then it already was. So it was a mix of all allies that helped to put an end to the Nazi regime.

Also Fishman we are not taught in America that we won the war alone. To say so would be ignorant. But, you can't deny the great contributions that we made in terms of supplies before we even officially entered the war. It is the same thing as with the Brits. It's not that they didn't have the skill or courage to fight the Nazi's , because they had plenty of that. But, without fuel and food Britain would of eventually been either starved to death or been invaded because they didn't have the fuel necessary to stop the Nazi war machine. But, without them fighting and holding off the Germans their never would of been a D-day at least not the same one we know today. So who knows what would of happened if we didn't all do our part to stop such a evil regime.

Apocolips yes you are right about America supplying the other allies with weapons,oil,food without such help we might be speaking German right now.Also my mistake about saying that you were taught that America won the war it was an assumption i shouldnt of made. The T34/76 the 76 is the gun size and your right about the skill of the German tank commanders they were the best of that time but couldnt overcome the superior numbers of tanks that the allies had -American and Russian.Yokinazu does the American Abrams have A/C in them just curious?

A/C lol. not no but hell no. they do however have a recirculating system for NBC attacks that blows air thru it. kinda fan but the air is the same temp as outside air. it does help tho when you stick the end of the hose into you shirt or pants and turn it on. the hose conects to the canister on the protective mask to help cool you down. but as far as bein refrigirated no. the heaters are also junk.

well they should have a/c in them.i always thought that the abrams were the best tank of today.but i dont know much about the merkava tank.

NATO = fail.