Iraq war shows limits of US power

By John Simpson
World affairs editor, BBC News


Since the invasion of Iraq in 2003 I have spent almost a year of my life here, reporting on the conflict.

An increase in US troop numbers has helped contain violence
I have witnessed a disturbing amount of death and injury, and several of my friends have lost their lives. Others have become refugees and asylum-seekers.

It has lasted almost as long as World War II and cost almost as much.

Only one of its original aims, the overthrow of Saddam Hussein, has been achieved.

Of the other aims, one was unobtainable because Iraq had no weapons of mass destruction to be destroyed, and the other - bringing democracy to the Middle East - has been indefinitely postponed.

Nothing new in any of this, of course. Anti-war commentators have repeated it all again and again, while pro-war commentators mostly avoid mentioning any of it.

More importantly, the war has shown the limits of American power. It is clear the United States can only manage to fight two small wars at a time.

Iraq and Afghanistan have stretched the US armed forces almost to breaking point. America after the invasion of Iraq is no longer the superpower it was before.

Rearguard action

Yet American resilience and inventive power seem to have turned the corner here, at least in military terms. Tactics which were losing the war have been abandoned, and new, more intelligent tactics have taken their place.

Now, the American forces are engaged in fighting a rearguard action, winning time during which the long-term decisions can be taken about withdrawal or some form of continuing presence here.

We have seen how hard it is for the Americans to deal with a few thousand lightly-armed volunteers


Some people - for instance Senator John McCain, the Republican candidate for the White House - will no doubt call this rearguard action a success. He may even be tempted to call it a victory.

Yet at present it is hard to think of it as particularly successful.

On Monday, Vice-President Dick Cheney came to Baghdad and talked about "the phenomenal improvement in security". That day more than 60 Iraqis were killed in bomb attacks.

He had to travel with unprecedented numbers of bodyguards, even though he never left the heavily defended Green Zone. Two mortar rounds hit the Zone while he was there.

None of this feels like a phenomenal improvement in security.

Elementary errors

Still, ever since the start of 2007, when Gen David Petraeus started introducing radically new tactics, the war has entered a different phase.

The various elements in the insurgency have been divided, the Mehdi Army has been persuaded to keep its head down, and the American and Iraqi forces have gone on the offensive, denying their enemy the chance to dig in and control territory.


Dick Cheney has vowed the US mission in Iraq will be completed
Before Gen Petraeus took over, American military tactics were negative, and sometimes seemed almost defeatist.

The insurgents were able to operate at will along the main roads in Baghdad. They took over entire suburbs and towns.

At the same time there was a breathtaking lack of political understanding.

In the first year after the invasion, Iraqi politicians found the American proconsul, Paul Bremer, both arrogant and silly. He made a number of elementary errors which have caused lasting damage.

Nowadays, by contrast, the face of American policy here is Ryan Crocker, the US ambassador to Iraq. He speaks good Arabic and has a sympathetic understanding of the country and its people.

Altogether, the American military and diplomatic presence here has much more professionalism and intellectual seriousness to it.

Long-term danger

Iraqi friends of mine who once hated the fact that the Americans were here now praise them for driving the militants from the streets. That is a real success.


Violence is down, but Iraqis continue to be killed
But it is small compared with the damage which the war has done to America's reputation. The US state department finds it much harder nowadays to be taken seriously when it criticises other countries for their use of torture and arbitrary arrest.

People the world over have been repelled by things that have been done here: things that are now associated with place-names like Abu Ghraib, Haditha, and Falluja.

Above all, we have seen how hard it is for the Americans to deal with a few thousand lightly armed volunteers.

Germany's 19th-Century Chancellor, Otto von Bismarck, said that great powers had to be very careful when they put their military strength to the test. Unless they are overwhelmingly successful, he meant, the perception will be that they have been defeated.

In spite of the new successes on the ground here, that is the long-term danger America faces.

Well it seems that at least Gen. Petreasus seems to know how to handle the situation unlike the assclowns before him.He has a long hard fight ahead of him and i hope one day peace will come to Iraq.

This doesn't show the limits of US power. The US has the most high tech army in the world. We could turn the Middle East into glass if we wanted too. But were not fighting this war like that. Were not trying to destroy buildings and kill everyone. Only a select group of people. Were trying to win "the hearts and mind" of the people. This is where we went wrong. The terrorists were fighting fight like pussies. NOT like soldiers.

Were not fighting a war like WW2. In WW2 Patton made sure we won. And thats what we need now, another Patton.

Give us a REAL war (Iraq isn't a real war, we are not fighting the Iraqi people, were fighting a select few. Were trying to help these people build a new nation for christs sake). Like if China or Ruassia go at us. They'll be counting bodies like you couldn't imagine. We'd definately win. It's not even a question.

Using the Iraq war to gauge how well the United States military is would be a foolish thing to do.

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Originally Posted by rebgirl420

Give us a REAL war (Iraq isn't a real war, we are not fighting the Iraqi people, were fighting a select few. Were trying to help these people build a new nation for christs sake). Like if China or Ruassia go at us. They'll be counting bodies like you couldn't imagine. We'd definately win. It's not even a question.

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Grant you we shouldn't be looking for war...right?

Of course. War should be the last option. But sometimes it needs to be done.

And when that time comes, the U.S. knows it's ready.

Wars are the second greatest evil that human societies can perpetrate. The first is dictatorship, the enslavement of their own citizens, which is the cause of wars.

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Originally Posted by rebgirl420

This doesn't show the limits of US power. The US has the most high tech army in the world. We could turn the Middle East into glass if we wanted too.

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Jihadists mistake compassion for "limits" or weakness. Like you stated, we could bring a permanent peace into that region within an hour if desired.

Have a good one!:s4:

just nothing but copy/paste form prisonplanet.com

1 of the most ridiculous and stupid websites on the web.

why must this be a daily America bashing from the alex jones crew?

personally, I think they belong in a special bus with drool cups. I really get sick of this America hatred, if its so bad, go to Canada, or England, shit go to any of the middle east countries and compare your freedom and liberties.



bahhhhhh

And tell me (1) thing ANYBODY here has been hurt by this so called Patriot Act? I cant think of 1.

Jet fuel, blowing up Bldg 7, ya ya the list goes on.... reminds me of the world is flat. But then again the same crew believes the moon landings never happened, why look at the shadows PROOF POSOTIVE it was in a hanger in hollywood, didnt you read Capricorn69?

the IQ sometimes of this politics board just gives me a headache and keeps me away from cann.com but hey its a FREE society and websource, something you couldnt find in a totalatarian govt as claimed.

get a life.

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Originally Posted by Psycho4Bud

Jihadists mistake compassion for "limits" or weakness. Like you stated, we could bring a permanent peace into that region within an hour if desired.

Have a good one!:s4:

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my 2 cents, is keep the press out of the area, keep the special interest politicians out, and let the Generals and military do their job. This whole Iraq thing can be mopped up in 3 mos if we let the military do what they are trained for.

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Originally Posted by Humboldt215

my 2 cents, is keep the press out of the area, keep the special interest politicians out, and let the Generals and military do their job. This whole Iraq thing can be mopped up in 3 mos if we let the military do what they are trained for.

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Thank You!

This is what I mean! Come on people, have faith in your men and women in uniform.

The United States is the best country in the world BECAUSE of our military.

True RG, but it isnt politically correct anymore to do protect yourself (assuming your a US soldier/citizen) you must 'passify' the enemy, make friends of them and gain their trust to get information on future terrorist acts (assuming you believe there IS such a thing as terrorists) You have to be nice and subserviant to the people who want to kill you and allow many months of time to win them to the your side.

Bahh.. I really wanna go off on this topic and say how I feel but I will be bann'd in 2 sec I think.

I support the USA, every 1 of our troops and am grateful for the job they do.

Waterboarding, torture, I say DO IT! These SoB'z have proven many times they are just animals and will cut the heads off the 'infidels' in the name of Allah for their richteous cause.

If their cause is so richteous and the western world can accept it as the way of the middle-east, then why cant they accept our heavy handed sword? Or preferrably a fleet of B-52's doing carpet bombing.

Again I am so sick and tired of fighting a war with 1 hand tied behind our back, did this happen in ww1, or ww2? NO! Did it happen in Vietnham, yes.. and Look at the fiasco it was.

Same thing happening here the press and public are running the war. NOT the military.

INSANITY.

Vietnam proved we forgot how to fight a war. And the same thing is happening here.

And if Hillary or Obama get in there and pull out of Iraq then your going to see a result like Vietnam. Where people were slaughtered by the millions.

We can't just leave. What about those brave Iraqi police and military. These guys want freedom. They crave Democracy. And so do most of the citizens. Women and young girls can go to school now and vote. This is because of the United States. Sadam was using mustard gas against kurds and his own people!

now,now RG

Somebody might think you actually support your country or are NOT part of the kool-aid drinking liberal left.

for shame, you actually respect and honor your country, how can YOU possibly believe that the press does NOT tell you everything, that the Generals and top level world leaders have information not privvy to the public, why that is just INSANITY.


I am with you 100% g/f.

Well if I'm a crazy Libertarian/Republican then so be it.

I've never been a liberal at any point of my life.

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Originally Posted by rebgirl420

Women and young girls can go to school now and vote.

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Women had the complete right to vote during Saddam's rule as well as girls were allowed to attend schools. If anything it is more difficult for people to vote or attend school with the current instability

The point of the article is that military power has limited value in the kind of situation we face in Iraq. Our military rolled over Saddam's military with no problem, but it is bogged down in this guerilla-style war for the last five years. Millitary against millitary, we can't be matched, but a guerilla war like Iraq shows the limits of US military power. I don't see anything wrong with that conclusion by the author. Rebgirl, you disagreed with the article, but then you said exactly the same thing.

Raw military power doesn't help much in this kind of war. Yeah, we could bomb the shit out of the place, or round up and shoot everyone of military age. No doubt we have the military power to do it. But it would never get us what we want. The more heavy-handed the tactics, the more recruits you get for the insurgency. You need to do your fighting in a way that doesn't just dig you deeper into the hole.

This is Vietnam over again, and Vietnam did not show that we forgot how to fight a war. Vietnam showed that raw military power has limited value against an insurgency. The Russians found that out in Afghanistan. The British learned that lesson how many times in how many places? (They probably learned it first in America where it was us who "fought like pussies, not like soldiers." The fine line between "freedom fighter" and "pussy coward terrorist" depends on which side you are on I guess. But now I'm getting off track.)

The biggest blunder (out of many) in Iraq was to allow the insurgency to develop in the first place. By disbanding the Iraqi government and army, Bremmer created the insurgency. Instead of keeping a power structure that our military could dominate and control, he created a chaos and vacume that led to an insurgency that our military power has little ability to control, and we've been paying for that blunder for the past 5 years.

this one time, at band camp...

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I've never been a liberal at any point of my life.

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your more of a liberal than you want to admit. a true liberal not the crazy left wing type.

and now a word from the liberal point of veiw.
i vehematly hate the far left they are a bunch of pussies. they are as bad maybe even worse thatn the bible thumping far right. it makes me almost physicaly ill everytime i see a peice of "news" from them. i get almost embarresed by these people of wich most are so far from being liberal its almost laughable at them claiming to be liberal.
i am a liberal i hate war, i love my fellow man and especially the women, i do not judge people by their race, sex, or creed. and guess what else i support our troops, i may be against this war but i do understand that the worst thing possible is for us to just cut and run. we should not have invaded iraq but that dont change the fact that we did. and now we have to figure out how to get out of there in a RESPONSIBLE manner.

but please people quit using liberal like its a bad word because there are many liberals who do not agree with the far left loons. this is like using conservative as a bad word because a few of them blew up abortion clinics.

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Originally Posted by yokinazu

this one time, at band camp...



your more of a liberal than you want to admit. a true liberal not the crazy left wing type.

and now a word from the liberal point of veiw.
i vehematly hate the far left they are a bunch of pussies. they are as bad maybe even worse thatn the bible thumping far right. it makes me almost physicaly ill everytime i see a peice of "news" from them. i get almost embarresed by these people of wich most are so far from being liberal its almost laughable at them claiming to be liberal.
i am a liberal i hate war, i love my fellow man and especially the women, i do not judge people by their race, sex, or creed. and guess what else i support our troops, i may be against this war but i do understand that the worst thing possible is for us to just cut and run. we should not have invaded iraq but that dont change the fact that we did. and now we have to figure out how to get out of there in a RESPONSIBLE manner.

but please people quit using liberal like its a bad word because there are many liberals who do not agree with the far left loons. this is like using conservative as a bad word because a few of them blew up abortion clinics.

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This is pretty much right on. Most people are more to the center, not extreme left or right, but they get lumped in with the crazies in their wing.

You want to ban abortion!
Well, you want gay people to get married!
Well, you're a warmonger!
Well, your a pussy coward cut-n-runner!
Well, you want to poison the planet!
Well, you care more about a fly than you do a human being!
Well, you want to give tax breaks to the rich!
Well, you just want to tax and spend!
Well, you want to teach my kid the Bible in science class!
Well, you want to ban my kid from saying "God" in the pledge of the allegiance!
Well, you want to throw out the Constitution and start a police state!
Well, you want criminals and terrorists to have more rights than law-abiding citizens!
Well, you want any criminal on the street to be able to have a gun!
Well, you want to ban my right to defend myself!
Well, you're an ass!
Well, you suck!
Suck THIS!
Screw you!
Smack!
Pop!
Biff!
Pow!
BLAM! BLAM! BLAM!
KABOOOOOM!
AAAAAAaaaaaahhhhhh!!!!!
UUUuuuuuuuuuhhhhhh!!!!!
...gasp....
...choke...
...die...
...die...

These simple-minded stereotypes are stupid. But it's the far extreme true believers on each side that are the ones who do the work for each party, while the vast majority are more in the center and don't care so much about extreme positions on either side. But the parties pander to those who will raise the money and do the work, so they stake out these extreme poistions, and the rest of us get taken along for a ride. Honestly, half the stuff the extreme wings fight about are not even things that would even occur to the average person to worry about. But once the parties start shouting about it, everyone feels like they have to take a side. We get distracted away from the issues that really do matter to most people, and nothing ever gets done.

This is where we went wrong. The terrorists were fighting fight like pussies. NOT like soldiers.

And just how would you fight a superpower with attack helicopters, tanks and cluster bombs, F-16s etc. Run out in the open and give them the finger? ~LOL~. Rediculous.

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Originally Posted by medicinal

This is where we went wrong. The terrorists were fighting fight like pussies. NOT like soldiers.

And just how would you fight a superpower with attack helicopters, tanks and cluster bombs, F-16s etc. Run out in the open and give them the finger? ~LOL~. Rediculous.

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Those pussies won't face our attack helicopters, tanks, cluster bombs, cruise missiles, jet fighters, strategic bombers, artillery, aircraft carriers, submarines, and laser-guided ordnance like soldiers! If they had any spine, they'd let us kill them like men! Pussies won't fight fair! Wah!

I agree, it's totally ridiculous to point out on one hand that we have an unbeatable military force that can roll over anyone who stands against it face-to-face, and then say on the other hand that the enemy should try to stand against it face-to-face! Just becasue they are an enemy does not make them a bunch of morons who will oblige us by fighting on our terms!

HUMBOLT first of all i didnt get that article from prison planet.com.It was taken from BBC worldnews.com not every story that blasts the occupation comes from the far left media.There are alot of people and media outlets in this world who are not far left nuts that actually see what this war is about....

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Originally Posted by fishman3811

There are alot of people and media outlets in this world who are not far left nuts that actually see what this war is about....

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Don't even try to claim that its about OIL thats absurd, especially since Canadian companies have much more to gain financially in this alleged OIL WAR than we do...And honestly I wish we would take over the entire region and nationalize the oil fields I'm sick of paying $3.20/gallon but I bet that u think George Bush is the reason gas prices are high not OPEC.........:stoned:

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Originally Posted by ldg420

Don't even try to claim that its about OIL thats absurd, especially since Canadian companies have much more to gain financially in this alleged OIL WAR than we do... And honestly I wish we would take over the entire region and nationalize the oil fields I'm sick of paying $3.20/gallon but I bet that u think George Bush is the reason gas prices are high not OPEC.........:stoned:

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Are you talking about the Middle East or Canada? Because if you are talking about Canada, then I am all for it. We should take over Canada, and steal all of their oil! And while we are at it, we should get some of their maple syrup too. Maple syrup costs more than gas, and that isn't right! Freakin' Canadians, screwing us with their high-priced maple syrup!

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Originally Posted by valtrip

Women had the complete right to vote during Saddam's rule as well as girls were allowed to attend schools. If anything it is more difficult for people to vote or attend school with the current instability

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Yeah, he let women vote. He let men vote, too...a few times. Believable results? I think not.
CNN.com - Saddam gets perfect poll result - Oct. 16, 2002
Last I heard, our military was building schools, hospitals and infrastructure. Saddam built shrines to honor himself.

This war is about making money plain and simple its not meant to be won its a war to be waged indefinitly so the elite can squeeze as much money out of the American tax payers as they can.If Anyone doesnt think that the elite is not making money then youve got your head in the sand.Do i think that Bush is the reason oil prices are so high well before the war oil was 38-40 a barrel now its 100-110 dollars a barrel so u tell me if its his fault.It doesnt take a rocket scientist to figure that one out

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Originally Posted by fishman3811

This war is about making money plain and simple its not meant to be won its a war to be waged indefinitly so the elite can squeeze as much money out of the American tax payers as they can.If Anyone doesnt think that the elite is not making money then youve got your head in the sand.Do i think that Bush is the reason oil prices are so high well before the war oil was 38-40 a barrel now its 100-110 dollars a barrel so u tell me if its his fault.It doesnt take a rocket scientist to figure that one out

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LMAO...and it's the vultures in Canada that have the present oil contracts in Iraq.

Have a good one!:s4:

YEAH but not as much as American oil companies.we have our own oil btw and American companies are the ones reaping the rewards not so much Canadian companies.

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Originally Posted by fishman3811

YEAH but not as much as American oil companies.we have our own oil btw and American companies are the ones reaping the rewards not so much Canadian companies.

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I think the point he is trying to make is that oil companies benefit from the high price of oil regardless of where the oil comes from. If you think in terms of conspiracies, then invading Iraq may not be about getting the oil in Iraq --- it may be about DISRUPTING the oil from Iraq in order to drive up the price of oil that you get from somewhere else. Whether you believe it is intentional or not, US oil companies are making record profits on the high price of oil, and the reason is the disruption of oil production in Iraq. Knock out one source of supply, and if the demand stays the same (and it does), then the price goes up (and it did, about triple).

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Originally Posted by fishman3811

YEAH but not as much as American oil companies.we have our own oil btw and American companies are the ones reaping the rewards not so much Canadian companies.

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There have been NO contracts with U.S. oil companies as of yet. If you feel different, show me some links.....good luck!

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Originally Posted by dragonrider

I think the point he is trying to make is that oil companies benefit from the high price of oil regardless of where the oil comes from.

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No I'm not! The U.S. and other countries have been involved in the "dirty work" from the start while countries like Canada did NOTHING because the war was wrong. BUT like Vultures, their oil company went into the Kurdish area and signed contracts that bipassed the central government of Iraq.

Seems damn funny to me that someone that lives in a country that won't fight but stands first in line to reap the rewards would post so much anti-U.S. b.s. in here. :twocents:

Have a good one!:s4:

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Originally Posted by fishman3811

YEAH but not as much as American oil companies.we have our own oil btw and American companies are the ones reaping the rewards not so much Canadian companies.

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Originally Posted by dragonrider

I think the point he is trying to make is that oil companies benefit from the high price of oil regardless of where the oil comes from.

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Originally Posted by Psycho4Bud

No I'm not! The U.S. and other countries have been involved in the "dirty work" from the start while countries like Canada did NOTHING because the war was wrong. BUT like Vultures, their oil company went into the Kurdish area and signed contracts that bipassed the central government of Iraq.

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I wasn't saying YOU were making that point P4B --- I was talking about fishman (but maybe he wasn't making that point either). Anyway, I guess I'LL be the one to take ownership of this point: American oil companies (along with all other countries' oil companies) are making huge profits on the increase in the price of oil as a result of the war. That said, I don't think that was the intent of the war --- just an added bonus for Bush and Cheney and their oil-industry cronies.

Come on P4B Canada is fighting the Taliban in Afghanistan btw,Canada along with many other countries did not choose to fight in Iraq.Now if a few oil companies in Canada want to do buisness in Iraq then that is their choice not mine.

So selective Canadian business can reap oil profits from the war, yet every US company is evil and operated by BushCo?


bahhhh

I never said U.S companies are evil and operated by bushco.Thats not the point anyway if Canadian oil companies or american oil companies want to do buisness in Iraq the point is America started this war of aggression and anybody who thinks America is right in starting this illegal war reminds me of the german people who thought that germany was attacking poland in self defense..........have a good one

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Originally Posted by dragonrider

I wasn't saying YOU were making that point P4B --- I was talking about fishman (but maybe he wasn't making that point either). Anyway, I guess I'LL be the one to take ownership of this point: American oil companies (along with all other countries' oil companies) are making huge profits on the increase in the price of oil as a result of the war. That said, I don't think that was the intent of the war --- just an added bonus for Bush and Cheney and their oil-industry cronies.

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Usual oil contracts between oil companies and the countries in question give the companies 15% of gross profit....who's making the big cash? The ones that usually rattle the sabers and drive oil prices up are Iran or Venezuela. Oil pricing is based on speculation.....

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Originally Posted by fishman3811

Now if a few oil companies in Canada want to do buisness in Iraq then that is their choice not mine.

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So you feel it's just to bitch about the U.S. and how it destroyed Iraq for the oil but state this? LMAO...HEY POT, don't call this kettle black!

Have a good one!:s4:

lol P4B Canada didnt invade a defensless country....

Truth be told, I'd rather be safe than sorry. We had opportunities in the past to prevent the attacks on our country, but failed to act. Perhaps we got trigger-happy, but fuck if we didn't remove one sick tyrannical bitch. I guess you could say, at least we found one weapon of mass distraction in Saddam. Either way, bitching about gas is a waste of breath. Europeans shell out way more than we do. We live in a world where we pay out of the ass for consumer products every day and don't even realize it. Hell, maple syrup does cost more a gallon. So does bottled water, bottled water! Everyone's just pissed because oil is so necessary to the world and those companies know it. Are you going to argue against capitalism, or continue to cling to your 'war for oil' conspiracy some more?

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Originally Posted by fishman3811

lol P4B Canada didnt invade a defensless country....

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Vultures are good at feeding on the scraps of dead carcasses.

Have a good one!:s4:

Very funny P4B im sure the vultures in Afghanistan like dead carcasses...well at least dead taliban anyway

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Originally Posted by fishman3811

This war is about making money plain and simple its not meant to be won its a war to be waged indefinitly so the elite can squeeze as much money out of the American tax payers as they can.If Anyone doesnt think that the elite is not making money then youve got your head in the sand.Do i think that Bush is the reason oil prices are so high well before the war oil was 38-40 a barrel now its 100-110 dollars a barrel so u tell me if its his fault.It doesnt take a rocket scientist to figure that one out

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if this was a real American war for oil don't you think that we would be able to secure reasonable oil prices?????? i forgot in your Canadian altered reality George Bush is the one profiting from the Iraq war, while us Americans sit back and pay $3 and up a gallon so he can get rich, come on get real with yourselves if the Iraq was had anything to do with oil than the price of crude oil would not be at a record high rather an all-time low...........:stoned:

Blood for oil, been said, and it's true. Lots of blood and a little oil, For Now. When the oil contracts are forced on the Iraqis, (US companies get about 85% of the oil), then the oil barons can control the second largest oil reserves on the planet and trickle out the oil to the tune of 100, 200, 300, 400, bucks a barrel and up. The price of oil is never going down, and Hydrogen won't be allowed untill they figure out a way to make money off of water.

The reason the Iraqi government wont do anything is the oil contracts, they only get 15%n of the oil revenues untill the cost of development is recovered, and who is to say when that is, right, the same guys that are stealing the oil in the first place, Chevron, Exxon, Shell, etc.. That's why the Iraqis refuse to complete the paperwork to form the government. The US is demanding they sign those atrocious oil contracts and they are refusing, rightly so, so the Blood for oil fighting continues. If it wasn't Blood for oil, Or blood for contractors, we'd leave in a heartbeat and say fuck those Iraqis. :D:D:D:D:D:D:D Mr. Green