Bush: Bad president? Or WORST president EVER?

I may have possibly revealed my own bias in the title of this thread, but YOU get to decide, and to be fair, there are options other than Bad and Worst. You can even select Best if you are crazy (don't let me influence your vote -- select Best if you really want to, you crazy nutjob). Whatever you vote for, please post a reason. If you think he is bad, why? If you think he is good, what are his accomplishments and who do you think has done a worse job?

For example:

I think George W. Bush is among the worst of presidents. He is not the uniter he claimed to be and has been the most divisive president ever. He did not have an easy time considering the 9/11 terrorist attack, but that was one event nearly 7 years ago, and we should be beyond that by now. I feel he used that event to get us into an unnecessary war that has cost us dearly. I think he lied about the reasons for invading Iraq. And when the war started going poorly, he did not do what was necessary to get it back on track. Now it may be too late to salvage that situation. I think he has created more terrorists than he has eliminated. He wasn't willing to pay for the things he wanted --- his tax cuts and this war have driven us into dangerous levels of debt, and now our economy is under threat from the debt load. He worked to weaken important environmental acts such as Clean Air, Clean Water and the Endangered Species act. He worked to PREVENT individual states such as California from tryng to deal with some of these environmental problems. He has failed to act on some of our most important problems such as climate change and other environmental problems, Social Security, Medicare, healthcare costs, national debt, and fair trade issues. He appointed incompetent boobs to very important posts. He worked to weaken our civil rights. He ruined our national image abroad. Energy prices are now through the roof.

After this list of failures, I cannot think of one accomplishment. I must be overlooking something. Can anyone think of one accomplishment?

Please vote in the poll and state what you think are Bush's failures and accomplishments, why you rank him as you do, and who you think has done a better or worse job as president.

I agree Dragonrider, and feel that your points of WHY he is a failure as a president are valid:
-Manipulation of a national tragedy for the gain of his cartel
-Divisive
-Making misleading statements about the causes of high petroleum prices to make us ignore the record profits shown lately by the bog oil companies
-Horrible horrible failure to react appropriately to natural disaster [Katrina stands out]
-Out of touch with the needs of the People, when in a democracy it is the needs of the People that should be his main focus
-Putting the country at large at odds with the rest of the world
-Poor environmental record
-Wasting tax dollars on projects [war and associated] that are not wholly supported by the People
-Unnecessarily endangering the lives of members of our Armed Forces
-Creating and then denying the existence of a national economic crisis
-Allowing the DEA to interfere with the rights of States to define their own medical drug policy

I think it's telling that my neighbor, a pretty hardcore Republican/conservative, said recently, "I'm still a Republican. But my party has failed me and I'm voting independent until they get back in line with what I believe"

He (well, the people with their hand up the puppet's ass anyway) has been a genius at making us as a nation focus on what his handlers would like us to focus on, while ignoring evidence pointing to the true reason we're in a big economic and international-relations disaster right now.

Time to stop charging the red cape, and make a few runs at the Matador.

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Originally Posted by stinkyattic

I agree Dragonrider, and feel that your points of WHY he is a failure as a president are valid:
-Manipulation of a national tragedy for the gain of his cartel
-Divisive
-Making misleading statements about the causes of high petroleum prices to make us ignore the record profits shown lately by the bog oil companies
-Horrible horrible failure to react appropriately to natural disaster [Katrina stands out]
-Out of touch with the needs of the People, when in a democracy it is the needs of the People that should be his main focus
-Putting the country at large at odds with the rest of the world
-Poor environmental record
-Wasting tax dollars on projects [war and associated] that are not wholly supported by the People
-Unnecessarily endangering the lives of members of our Armed Forces
-Creating and then denying the existence of a national economic crisis
-Allowing the DEA to interfere with the rights of States to define their own medical drug policy

I think it's telling that my neighbor, a pretty hardcore Republican/conservative, said recently, "I'm still a Republican. But my party has failed me and I'm voting independent until they get back in line with what I believe"

He (well, the people with their hand up the puppet's ass anyway) has been a genius at making us as a nation focus on what his handlers would like us to focus on, while ignoring evidence pointing to the true reason we're in a big economic and international-relations disaster right now.

Time to stop charging the red cape, and make a few runs at the Matador.

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Good points, Stinky!

I didn't even get into the whole puppet show issue, but I think you are absolutely correct about that. He's been manipulated by much smarter people most of the time. He'll have to bear the blame for where those masters have led him and us.

I hope he will be on trial for all of the following sometime in his life:
- war crimes
- treason
- manslaughter

President or criminal?

I voted for "Bad". It's not logical to vote him the "Worst President of All Time" unless you actually study all the presidents and their doings. All too easy to make a judgement on the president of your lifetime.

I voted for bush the first time, I voted for him the second time. If you judge him on his first term I think he was a great prez, looking at his second term, I would say he lost his swagger and let other people dictate his term too much. he lost his decisive attitude, and then decided to eliminate the notion of NOT SPENDING. bush is suppose to be a republican, yet he created the largest budget in history....sheesh

However, its much too soon to judge bush on his overall effictiveness. 10 years from now I think people will look more favorably on bush. right now there is too much venom in the water for people to think objectively.

How will history remember him? Remember Reagan? Considered at the time of being the worst ever but now is considered one of the greatest by both parties.

Bush has had to contend with another attack on our country but unlike Clinton he reacted like a Commander-in-Chief is suppose to:

Then in February 1993, the first major terrorist attack on American soil took place at the World Trade Centre in New York.

Six people were killed and more than 1,000 - mainly civilians - injured in the blast. The US implicated Egyptian terrorists in the plot to attack targets in the country.

After the New York bomb, terrorist activity against the US returned to Middle East targets.

Seven people were injured - including five Americans - in an explosion in 1995 near a US-run military training centre in Riyadh, the capital of Saudi Arabia.

A year later, a huge explosion killed 19, and injured many others at a military complex housing US troops at Khobar in the east of the country.

The US responded by moving their remaining troops in the region in fear of reprisals.
BBC News | Americas | History of attacks on US personnel

And then acknowledging that Iraq had to be dealt with
Russian President Vladimir Putin said yesterday that his intelligence service had warned the Bush administration before the U.S. invasion of Iraq that Saddam Hussein's government was planning attacks against U.S. targets both inside and outside the country.
Russia Warned U.S. About Iraq, Putin Says (washingtonpost.com)

instead of just a random bombing like Clinton done:
Bombs, Ahoy...Iraq: From Clinton to Bush
Bombs, Ahoy...Iraq: From Clinton to Bush

Then lets not forget about Katrina.......not to many recent Presidents that have had a major city wiped out.

If we're rating Bush....why not congress? Overall performance.......I'll give him a "Good". :D

Have a good one!:s4:

Aw man, I was hoping for an option more like "Everyone in a political position of power needs to be dropped to their knees and executed in a timely and effiecient manner." but no such luck. I agree with Gandalf too, I've only known three presidents in my short life, one of which I didn't actually know, another....well, I actually didn't know ANYTHING about Bush Sr. or Clinton, but that's neither here nor there. From what I've seen, whether or not Bush has actually done ANYTHING right (and so far I'm at a loss to think of something) he has not made America a better place to live. That in and of itself marks one as a failure as a president. Which basically means 90% of presidents are terrible.

I'll be the first to admit that I've flat-out disagreed with a lot of the policies created and enforced by the Bush Admin. And I wasn't too thrilled with the "reconstruction" phase of Iraq, although I've always thought that Saddam was someone who needed to be removed from power. Still, I can't say that I'm one of the nit-pickers who tears every aspect of his life apart just to exploit his flaws. (Unless we're talking about Bushisms. :D I do get a kick out of lots of those.)

But I totally agree with the other posters that if anyone was to rate his presidency, they should also do the same for our former presidents. They've all had pros and cons, good policies and bad policies, etc. Some just had more of one side, and less of the other. And right now, Bush is doing a good job staying off my shit-list and on my good side... I just got finished figuring out my taxes. My wife and I will be in pretty good shape this year, and I might actually get to use that tax relief check to use in the growroom. I can't complain at all about that!

He gets an 'OK' from me. :thumbsup:

I'm young I know, this will be the first presidential election I can vote in, but isn't Bush directly attacking Democracy?

- Florida, Supreme Court case etc.... didn't Kerry win?
- 9/11 Government job. A lot of Americans dead
- Patriot Act..... Habeus Corpus R.I.P. --- I want my Habeus Corpus that's for sure
- War on Iraq: I am glad that Saddam was removed, but it should not have went like this. I'd say it wasn't worth it. It was clearly an illegal war.


And our economy???? I have stocks, follow the news etc.... and the stiuation is VERY BAD. I'd say we have a 90% chance of it getting even worse.


Bush did two things that could be good for the US in the long run. Remove Saddam and turn the US into the bully of the world. I do not agree with how Saddam was removed and I also don't agree in that the US should be the bully of the world.

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Originally Posted by THClord

Florida, Supreme Court case etc.... didn't Kerry win?

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I've heard the whole Diebold argument, and I highly doubt that anything was tampered with. It was a conceptual electronic voting machine, and there may have been a malfunction. Or, it may have been a legitimate election. You can't rule out that possibility.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by THClord

- 9/11 Government job. A lot of Americans dead

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I won't touch this one, I'm trying to be on my best behavior for a little while... but I must say, I disagree.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by THClord

- Patriot Act..... Habeus Corpus R.I.P. --- I want my Habeus Corpus that's for sure

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Most of the provisions under this act don't apply to us, and probably aren't as threatening to our civil liberties as many far-left loons will tell you. Unless you're a terrorist or in cahoots with a terrorist, that is... then you might have something to worry about. And you've got your habeas corpus... when was the last time a black helicopter swooped down in the middle of the night, and dragged you away to Guantanamo?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by THClord

War on Iraq: I am glad that Saddam was removed, but it should not have went like this. I'd say it wasn't worth it. It was clearly an illegal war.

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Care to elaborate? Last I checked, prerequisites were met both nationally and internationally that allowed for the invasion. It was a completely legal invasion, at least in my opinion, just not a popular one.

I also own stock in a few companies and am sitting on several other investments. I've seen a few of them stagnate and even fall, but they're just a small percentage. I have others that are doing well. Making smart, low-risk investments ensure that if the market (or even the economy) takes a tumble... you won't be hung out to dry.

I'd like to think that Dubya is the worst president ever, but not having lived during the terms of Andrew Johnson or Warren G. Harding to name but a couple of awful presidents (according to the history books), I think it's presumptuous for any one of us to state categorically that G.W. Bush is the worst.

I believe, however, that Dubya is the worst president in my lifetime. And I lived during Tricky Dick Nixon's 1.5 terms.

I'd take Tricky Dick back in a nanosecond if that was the devil's bargain that needed to be made to undo all the damage the current occupant of the White House has caused (along with co-president, Darth Cheney).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gandalf_The_Grey

I voted for "Bad". It's not logical to vote him the "Worst President of All Time" unless you actually study all the presidents and their doings. All too easy to make a judgement on the president of your lifetime.

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True, it's hard unless you've studied history to compare him to other presidents. But I don't remember any who truly stand out in a negative way the way I think Bush will. There was Nixon, who was really pretty bad, but even he had some good points: signed the OSHA laws, the Clean Air Act, the Clean Water Act, the Endagered Species Act, the EPA (all things that Bush has worked to weaken). He reached out to China. So he is remembered as a bad president for his corruption, but he had some accomplishments. Bush really doesn't have accomplishments that I can recall. Maybe my mind is too clouded by his glaring failures to see the accomplishments.

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Originally Posted by Psycho4Bud

How will history remember him? Remember Reagan? Considered at the time of being the worst ever but now is considered one of the greatest by both parties.

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I don't think Reagan was considered the worst ever even at the time. There were many people who disagreed strongly with him but there were others who revered him when he was in office. With Bush, there are those who defend him, but no one who reveres him. I think the most he can hope for from history is some softening of the anger, but he'll still need to accomplish something in order to be seen favorably. And if these messes he has created linger long after he is gone, he will bear blame for them.

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Originally Posted by Psycho4Bud

Bush has had to contend with another attack on our country but unlike Clinton he reacted like a Commander-in-Chief is suppose to:

Then in February 1993, the first major terrorist attack on American soil took place at the World Trade Centre in New York.

Six people were killed and more than 1,000 - mainly civilians - injured in the blast. The US implicated Egyptian terrorists in the plot to attack targets in the country.

After the New York bomb, terrorist activity against the US returned to Middle East targets.

Seven people were injured - including five Americans - in an explosion in 1995 near a US-run military training centre in Riyadh, the capital of Saudi Arabia.

A year later, a huge explosion killed 19, and injured many others at a military complex housing US troops at Khobar in the east of the country.

The US responded by moving their remaining troops in the region in fear of reprisals.
BBC News | Americas | History of attacks on US personnel

And then acknowledging that Iraq had to be dealt with
Russian President Vladimir Putin said yesterday that his intelligence service had warned the Bush administration before the U.S. invasion of Iraq that Saddam Hussein's government was planning attacks against U.S. targets both inside and outside the country.
Russia Warned U.S. About Iraq, Putin Says (washingtonpost.com)

instead of just a random bombing like Clinton done:
Bombs, Ahoy...Iraq: From Clinton to Bush
Bombs, Ahoy...Iraq: From Clinton to Bush

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The poll is really about Bush, not Clinton, but it is fair to compare. I take it what you are saying is that Bush has responded better to the threat of terrorism than Clinton did.

I'm not so sure Bush's record on terrorism is as good as he might want us to believe. The biggest terrorist attack in our history occurred during his presidency. I'll concede that he does not bear full responsibility for those 3000 civilian dead. But it did happen when he was president, not someone else. And the administration says that those people killing our soldiers in Iraq are terrorists, so it seems like we have actually lost another 3000 to terrorists in the last 5 years of war. With 6000 dead, by the numbers it doesn't look like a very great record on terrorism.

And as for taking the fight to them, we definitely had to do that in Afghanistan. But I do not think we had to in Iraq. The terrorists were not there --- now they are. Bush used to ask, "Do you think the world would be a better place with Saddam Hussein still in power?" And the answer is, no, of course not. But now you could ask, "Do you think the world is a better place with Al Qaeda in Iraq?" And the answer is, no, of course not. The real question is , "Do you think the world is a better place with Al Qaida in Iraq than it was with Saddam Hussein in power?" Then I'm not so sure. If that's the choice and it's going to cost 3000 dead and a trillion dollars to get Al Qaeda instead of Saddam, I think I'll just stick with Saddam.

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Originally Posted by Psycho4Bud

Then lets not forget about Katrina.......not to many recent Presidents that have had a major city wiped out.

If we're rating Bush....why not congress? Overall performance.......I'll give him a "Good". :D

Have a good one!:s4:

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I'm not sure you want to bring up Katrina as a point in Bush's favor. That situation was, and still is, a disgrace, and the federal government failed misearably. It was actually Heck-of-a-job-Brownie I had in mind when I mentioned the incompetent boobs Bush assigned to important jobs. Brownie is only one of an army of incompetent boobs Bush appointed. Some Republicans seem to have so much disdain for government that they really think it doesn't matter who gets appointed --- turns out it does. And if they think goernment is so useless, why do they always want to be in charge of it?

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Originally Posted by Mr. Clandestine

But I totally agree with the other posters that if anyone was to rate his presidency, they should also do the same for our former presidents. They've all had pros and cons, good policies and bad policies, etc. Some just had more of one side, and less of the other. And right now, Bush is doing a good job staying off my shit-list and on my good side... I just got finished figuring out my taxes. My wife and I will be in pretty good shape this year, and I might actually get to use that tax relief check to use in the growroom. I can't complain at all about that!

He gets an 'OK' from me. :thumbsup:

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My feeling about the rebate check is that it is just another example of Bush's fiscal irresponsibility. It would have been more honest of him to say, "We want you to spend more to prop up the economy --- each one of you get out your credit cards and spend 600 dollars you don't have." Since everyone would have thought that was stupid or crazy, he did it for you. Bush is going to borrow 600 dollars for you to spend, and it will come back to you in the form of future taxes. At some time in the future you or your children will pay back that $600 plus interest in the form of higher taxes, maybe $1200, or $1800, or $2400 depending on how long it takes to pay it off. Bush and the congress are just trying to buy votes with this one by taking a cash advance on your credit card.

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Originally Posted by dragonrider

My feeling about the rebate check is that it is just another example of Bush's fiscal irresponsibility. It would have been more honest of him to say, "We want you to spend more to prop up the economy --- each one of you get out your credit cards and spend 600 dollars you don't have." Since everyone would have thought that was stupid or crazy, he did it for you. Bush is going to borrow 600 dollars for you to spend, and it will come back to you in the form of future taxes. At some time in the future you or your children will pay back that $600 plus interest in the form of higher taxes, maybe $1200, or $1800, or $2400 depending on how long it takes to pay it off. Bush and the congress are just trying to buy votes with this one by taking a cash advance on your credit card.

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Brother, I'm far less worried about incentive checks like this one collecting interest, and much more worried about the toll that the actual Iraq war is costing us. At least with the checks, there's the chance that it'll do precisely what it's supposed to to... which is stimulate the economy a bit. The billions being spent on the war is an entirely different concern, and I'd hate to see that money wasted just because a liberal administration decides to cut & run. I don't favor the Iraq debacle, but I'm certainly not against the global war on terror. We're living in turbulent times, and there's no definitive end in sight. Plus, Bushs' incentive package may help alleviate other pertinent concerns; like a late mortgage payment, or having the money to put fuel in your vehicle to get you to work, or even the money to blow on a CO2 system, or new lights, or something! :jointsmile:

It's kind of hard to put too much of a negative spin on the topic. Most Americans are grateful.

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Originally Posted by Mr. Clandestine

Brother, I'm far less worried about incentive checks like this one collecting interest, and much more worried about the toll that the actual Iraq war is costing us. At least with the checks, there's the chance that it'll do precisely what it's supposed to to... which is stimulate the economy a bit. The billions being spent on the war is an entirely different concern, and I'd hate to see that money wasted just because a liberal administration decides to cut & run. I don't favor the Iraq debacle, but I'm certainly not against the global war on terror. We're living in turbulent times, and there's no definitive end in sight. Plus, Bushs' incentive package may help alleviate other pertinent concerns; like a late mortgage payment, or having the money to put fuel in your vehicle to get you to work, or even the money to blow on a CO2 system, or new lights, or something! :jointsmile:

It's kind of hard to put too much of a negative spin on the topic. Most Americans are grateful.

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Absolutely, the cost of the war is something to be worried about --- some $800 billion so far and projected to run to somewhere between $1.2 trillion and $2.7 triillion depending on the duration and outcome. So if $800 billion were divided among the 130 million people getting a rebate check, your check might be over $6000 per person. Sweet little grow room then. Your share if the war goes to $1.2 trillion will be over $9000. If it goes to $2.7 trillion, your share is over $20,000 --- maybe this is getting costly. Of course the government would never cut you a check like that, but it's an example of how the costs are adding up.

As it is, the rebate checks are a real bargain compared to the war --- it will only cost us $117 billion added to the national debt for each of us to be able to go out and buy some cheap Chinese crap we don't even need. You said most Americans are grateful, but that's not what I hear from people when I talk to them about it. Most people I spoke to about it look forward to getting the money, of course, but think it's stupid. That's how I feel too. I could use it for something, but it's dumb. $600 is not really enough to make much of a difference in your life, but $117 billion seems like a lot for the government to borrow. Bush has already added something like $3 trillion to the debt so far, so I guess this is really just a drop in the bucket for him --- he's used to running up the credit card by now.

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Originally Posted by dragonrider

Most people I spoke to about it look forward to getting the money, of course, but think it's stupid. That's how I feel too. I could use it for something, but it's dumb. $600 is not really enough to make much of a difference in your life, but $117 billion seems like a lot for the government to borrow.

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You're right, for most of us $600 doesn't amount to much. I'm just happy to have broke even this year with my taxes, and getting a check just for the hell of it may not be necessary... but I'll find something to do with it. But, like I mentioned before, to someone who may actually need the money (I know several people who are struggling just to pay the bills), it'll be a welcome sight for them. Truth be told, it could very well have been spent to engineer new B-2's or F-18's for the war campaign... but it isn't. It's going into the hands of American citizens.

Lets not forget that NO OTHER PRESIDENT has had the media coverage that President Bush has had. And, that makes a difference!



b0nger


P.S. Oh shit, bruther AL is on my TV as I type.

Eh' I would say not particularly good and not particularly bad. I feel that if it wasn't for 9/11 he would have been a pretty decent president. Compared to the other recent presidents.

But theres a lot of things I disagree with him with. A lot.

But compared to our other choices I say it could have been MUCH worse.

Bush jr is a puppet.
Bush Sr. has been in charge since his cia buddies rigged the 1980 election.
Including the reagan and clinton years.

Could have been worse.

This is a benchmark to see how things change over time. Right now there are 25 answers to the poll.

Worst: 10
Bad: 7
OK: 2
Good: 5
Best: 1

So, 68% of people responded with an unfavorable rating of Bad or Worst. And 24% responded with a favorable rating of Good or Best. And 8% responded with a nuetral rating of OK.

I'm not exactly sure how polling agencies come up with their "approval ratings," but this 24% rate of favorable repsonses is pretty close to what they report these days, isn't it? I think Bush's approval rating has been around 30% lately, and this is not far off considering the small number of people responding.

You ARE aware, aren't you, that if the actual events of 9-11 had not unfolded quite as they did, the Bush-Cheney Cartel would still have managed to find a way to drag us into another war for oil... it's their gift. A veritable superhero skill. And all I got was the ability to procrastinate effectively... :(

stink this is one place where i disagree with you. sure i don't doubt that we would have gone to war in the short future, 9/11 or not. however, thats not any different that what we have constantly seen throughout history. In WWI the US was illegally supporting the allies w/ weapons and military supplies. we were shipping them on commercial ocean liners, the germans knew it, blew up the lusitania, its our excuse for war.
WWII, some people will argue the us knew about japans 'secret' attack on pearl harbor for days (and there is some good supportive evidence). either way the first american soil bombed on dec 7 was midway island a good several hours before pearl harbor started. yet somehow it was still a complete suprise. end result, secret attack, we go to war.

i guess this all comes to the fact that sometimes people have to fight wars. do you wait for a climatic event like 9/11 or pearl harbor so that your people will rally behind the leaders? or do you take initiative and not wait for a spark.

near as i can tell, people are most upset with 'the way we went to war', false pretenses and whatnot. would they feel better if some republican guards blew up a commuter plane? lets face it nobody can think saddam was a good person. shit the guy would cut out peoples tongues, throw people into woodchippers, and carve X's on peoples foreheads. im glad he's gone.

i do wish things could have gone better, particularly in 2006 and 07. but we are there, and it tooks some big ass balls for the prez to make that decision. i respect him for that.

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Originally Posted by FlyGuyOU

near as i can tell, people are most upset with 'the way we went to war', false pretenses and whatnot. would they feel better if some republican guards blew up a commuter plane? .

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I think you are correct in this statement. It is, indeed, the way we got involved in the war to begin with that upsets me, personally, the most.

The chain of events starting with the September 11 attacks on US soil, then going on what, ultimately, has been largely a wild-goose chase in Afghanistan, to our current presence in Iraq, to what appears to be a new push to bring this war into Iran... to me, there is a failure of logic connecting all these things.

I'm still not convinced fully that the 9-11 attacks were simply the Taliban getting into world affairs on an unprecedented scale. Thus, I look with some skepticism on the stated reasons for being in Afghanistan... the cynic in me reminds me that the Taliban was notorious for refusing to allow construction of an oil pipeline that would connect the rich oil fields of what was once Northwestern Russia to a seaport. With them removed, these pipelines are suddenly a possibility, and who better to construct them than the subsidiaries of companies wholly owned by the country that controls an occupying army?

As for Saddam Hussein and his so-called weapons of mass destruction... of COURSE they could find some unnamed 'intelligence' sources who claimed to have seen them! Think 'stool pigeon' (some of you may be too young to be familiar with that term). I don't argue for one minute that Hussein's regime was one of terror and massive human rights violations, but again, where ARE those pesky WMDs, and why are we suddenly involved now, now that Afghanistan is wrested from the control of a faction opposed to a US/Western presence in their very strategically located country, when here at home we have violence and poverty enough, as highlighted by the tragedy of Katrina?

I view with profound skepticism the timing of all this.

And on another note, I find it difficult to make a comparison between the World Wars, fought for 'Libenstraum' and other manifestations of plain empire-building and control of land masses, while modern US involvement in war seems to have shifted from that, through wars of idealism [Commie prevention], to farily obscene shows of ECONOMIC imperialism.

Just my two cents on the matter.

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Originally Posted by FlyGuyOU

i guess this all comes to the fact that sometimes people have to fight wars. do you wait for a climatic event like 9/11 or pearl harbor so that your people will rally behind the leaders? or do you take initiative and not wait for a spark.

near as i can tell, people are most upset with 'the way we went to war', false pretenses and whatnot. would they feel better if some republican guards blew up a commuter plane? lets face it nobody can think saddam was a good person. shit the guy would cut out peoples tongues, throw people into woodchippers, and carve X's on peoples foreheads. im glad he's gone.

i do wish things could have gone better, particularly in 2006 and 07. but we are there, and it tooks some big ass balls for the prez to make that decision. i respect him for that.

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This is wrong on a lot of different levels.

When you say, "i guess this all comes to the fact that sometimes people have to fight wars," do you mean that people are just warlike and HAVE to fight wars? Or do you mean that there are sometimes good reasons to fight wars? I think there are sometimes good reasons to fight wars. The war in Afghanistan was fought for a good reason. But if there is a good reason, then the good reason should be enough --- the government should not have to lie about the reasons, or bait the other side into attacking us as you suggest they sometimes do. If you have to lie about the reasons, then obviously the real reason is not good enough.

Clearly, no one would, "feel better if some republican guards blew up a commuter plane." It's not about "feeling better" about it. It's about whether there are good reasons or not. If we had been attacked by Iraq, then there would have been good reasons. But they didn't attack us, so that reason is out. If they had been building the nukes, and nerve gas, and germs, then possibly that would have been a reason, but that turns out to be a lie. The fact that Saddam was a ruthless sadistic tyrant was not enough. If Bush had come to us and said, Saddam is a ruthless sadistic tyrant, and we have to get rid of him --- it''ll take a trillion dollars and cost 3000 American lives, and after 5 years we still won't really be sure how it will turn out, and it's going to turn Iraq into a terrorist haven for Al Qaeda, and it's going to kill hundreds of thousands of Iraqi civilians, and create a couple million refugees, and alienate our allies, but believe me, it's gonna be worth it --- if he had done that in 2002, we could have had him locked up for insanity back then and avoided this whole mess.

I don't believe George Bush went after Saddam because he was a tyrant. And I don't think Bush just made an innocent mistake about the WMD either. The WMD were an excuse, and the tyrant thing is just a justification after the fact. He, or his "mentors' had reasons of their own that they have never admitted, and I'm pretty sure it had to do with money and/or oil, not the nation's best interests.

And about this, "it tooks some big ass balls for the prez to make that decision. i respect him for that," yes it took some big-ass balls to lie to the whole country and the world and get us into the biggest foreign-relations and humanitarian disaster we have ever caused, but I do not respect him for that. I despise him for that.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dragonrider

yes it took some big-ass balls to lie to the whole country and the world and get us into the biggest foreign-relations and humanitarian disaster we have ever caused, but I do not respect him for that. I despise him for that.

---

There is courage, and there is arrogance.

If Bush the Second had had any of the former, his own military service record would have been far more appropriate to the commanding officer of the most powerful Armed Forces on the planet...

Sadly, missing muster for unspecified reasons (I've always assumed hangovers were involved) is far from glorious, and would have gotten a less-connected man tossed into the brig to cool his heels.

So we see the early manifestations of the arrogance that our ruling class is taught at a young age- a big FUCK YOU to those of us who actually have to answer for our youthful mistakes.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by stinkyattic

There is courage, and there is arrogance.

If Bush the Second had had any of the former, his own military service record would have been far more appropriate to the commanding officer of the most powerful Armed Forces on the planet...

Sadly, missing muster for unspecified reasons (I've always assumed hangovers were involved) is far from glorious, and would have gotten a less-connected man tossed into the brig to cool his heels.

So we see the early manifestations of the arrogance that our ruling class is taught at a young age- a big FUCK YOU to those of us who actually have to answer for our youthful mistakes.

---

My sense of Dubya as a person is that he is a sort of simple guy who has a strong sense of privilege and likes to be in with an exclusive club. But beyond that, he's not as sinister or as devious as he is sometimes given credit for. He's not smart enough for it. I have this sense of a puppet that doesn't know he is a puppet. Or maybe he does know it, but doesn't know what to do about it. Sometimes he even seems to have an instinct for the right thing, but not the brains or strength to make it happen. He doesn't have the power to go against his "advisers" who are a lot smarter and more determined than he is. He's been carried and coddled all his life, so he has never had to face a consequence, and he might not even know what a consequence is. He's been in way over his head ever since he entered politics.

I'm sure he can't wait to get out of the oval office and back to puttin' around the ranch on his tractor, makin' a whole mess o' barbeque, maybe sneakin' away from Laura and headin' off to the back forty for a couple o' beers with some of the frat buddies from Skull 'n' Bones, watchin 'em put together some coup down Venezuela way. Those guys sure are cool, and it's great to hang out with 'em, givin' 'em all nicknames! "Hey, pass me another rib there, Slim! So what you boys got cookin'? Can I get in on this deal? I got about 10 million I'd like to double in the next year or so, maybe help Jeb go up against Hillary in a few years."

Indeed. There's a big difference between courage and bravado.
In real life, "balls", have only one purpose.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dragonrider

My sense of Dubya as a person is that he is a sort of simple guy who has a strong sense of privilege and likes to be in with an exclusive club...
I have this sense of a puppet that doesn't know he is a puppet...
He doesn't have the power to go against his "advisers" who are a lot smarter and more determined than he is.
He's been carried and coddled all his life, so he has never had to face a consequence, and he might not even know what a consequence is. ...

---

Dragonrider, do you have a fan club? ;)
That's exactly the smell that I get comin' off him too.

I just wanted to say that this thread is jst like every other political argement Ive ran across with bush. The same things always get brought up, his greediness, stupidity, 9/11, and the oh so popular 'there were worse choices'

Still, WHAT in the HELL has that guy done that is actually *good*? Oh, other than sending Clanedestine 600 bucks. Which I coulda made in one weekend waitressing. I seriously do consider him at least one of the worst presidents of all time, because even tho all this 'bad shit' happend 'to' Bush, well he sure hasnt done anything good with it.

And thats all i gotta say abot that. :jointsmile:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dragonrider

Clearly, no one would, "feel better if some republican guards blew up a commuter plane." It's not about "feeling better" about it. It's about whether there are good reasons or not. If we had been attacked by Iraq, then there would have been good reasons. But they didn't attack us, so that reason is out.

---

As stated before, there were reports from Russia that Saddam did have plans to attack us in a 9-11 fashion. Besides that, an attempt to assassinate an ex-President shouldn't be taken lightly.

Ya know; when I was but a wee, wee Psycho sitting on my daddys' knee he used to say, "Son, there's nothing wrong with Bush".:D

Have a good one!:s4:

Would you think a alcoholic, C student, draft jumper turned jesus freak would make a good pres? Of course not. Who voted for this guy anyway?

I wish he was honest about his reasons for going to Iraq.
I guess,"they started using the Euro instead of the dollar for oil trade" sounds like a pretty dam ridiculous reason though.
This is why the dollar has so much power in the world.
No matter who you are, you need US dollars to buy oil from an OPEC nation.
This is a big factor in our economy and why other nations want out money(and why we keep printing more of it with nothing to back it up).
Iran is considering to make the switch to the Euro also, hrmmm, I wonder why all this talk about Iran and nukes all of a sudden. Couldn't just be some more shotty propaganda.

Keep buying those retardedly huge trucks and SUVs and feeding the problem America, after gas hits $5 a gallon you won't be able to give them away,maybe for scrap.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Psycho4Bud

As stated before, there were reports from Russia that Saddam did have plans to attack us in a 9-11 fashion. Besides that, an attempt to assassinate an ex-President shouldn't be taken lightly.

---

I read the Post article, and it did not say whether our attack on Iraq was in response to information about Iraq preparing these aleged terrorist attacks, or if Iraq planning to attack us was in response to us planning to attack them. The timing is important. It became clear we were moving toward war in 2002, so I'm sure Iraq began to plan for all of their options by then.

In addition, plans to not mean intent. We have plans for nuking Russia and China, but it deosn't mean we intend to do it.

And this claim may not even be true. Certainly Bush never said before the war we need to take out Saddam becasue he is planning attacks against us, which would have been a lot more compelling argument than the ones given. At the time the reasoning was that Saddam was making WMD, which he COULD provide to a terrorist group, which MIGHT then use them against us. So it makes it seem like this claim is just more spin after the fact. Maybe Putin gets something out of making this claim. After enough verifiable lies and mistakes about how we went to war, it's hard to believe anything about it at this point.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by carinia

I just wanted to say that this thread is jst like every other political argement Ive ran across with bush. The same things always get brought up, his greediness, stupidity, 9/11, and the oh so popular 'there were worse choices'

Still, WHAT in the HELL has that guy done that is actually *good*? Oh, other than sending Clanedestine 600 bucks. Which I coulda made in one weekend waitressing. I seriously do consider him at least one of the worst presidents of all time, because even tho all this 'bad shit' happend 'to' Bush, well he sure hasnt done anything good with it.

And thats all i gotta say abot that. :jointsmile:

---

He'ne some good stuff. He may not be a great president but he has done some good. Like the fact that he's given MILLIONS and MILLIONS of dollars to Aids research and to Africa. If you ask me thats good. And jujst so you know he's given more to Africa and Aids than ANY other president out there. More than Billy Clinton.

And the fact that he's actually helping us save the second admendment that seems to be trampled on daily.

And the Bush tax cuts helped out countless mid class citezens.

And here's some more from his first 4 years :)

February 2001
President Bush proclaims National Consumer Protection Week
President Bush releases agenda for tax relief
President Bush and President Vicente Fox of Mexico hold joint press conference
President Bush speaks at dedication of Oklahoma City National Memorial
President Bush and Prime Minister Blair hold joint press conference
President Bush address' Joint Session of Congress

March 2001
President Bush speaks at christening ceremony for the USS Ronald Reagan
President Bush speaks at Chicago Mercantile Exchange
President Bush and meets with President Kim Dae-Jung of South Korea
President Bush meets with National Energy Policy Development Group
President and Mrs. Bush Speak to women business leaders
President Bush welcomes Prime Minister Ariel Sharon of Israel
President Bush speaks at La Sociedad Cubana
President Bush welcomes Catholic Leaders to White House
President Bush proclaims Education and Sharing Day, USA
President Bush speaks to Greek Community Leaders
President Bush speaks to high tech leaders
President Bush speaks to African American leaders
President Bush proclaims National Child Abuse Prevention Month.
President Bush speaks to members of the Baseball Hall of Fame
President Bush signs resolution repealing ergonomics regulation that repeals burdensome and broad regulation dealing with ergonomics.

April 2001
A Chinese fighter jet downs a US spy plan causing an international incident. China held the crew for 11 days, until the Bush Administration negotiated their release without admitting responsibility.
President Bush proclaims National Former Prisoner of War Recognition Day.
President Bush congratulates Winners of Horatio Alger Award
President Bush proclaims Jewish Heritage Week
President Bush proclaims National Crime Victims' Rights Week.
U.S. forces participate in apprehension of indicted war criminal
The Mississippi River experienced severe flooding of historic significance - the river rose to its highest level since 1965 affecting residents in 4 states and causing billions in damages.
President Bush declares several Mississippi counties disaster areas
President Bush speaks at Holocaust Museum
President's speaks at the Summit of the Americas - Quebec City, Canada
President Bush recognizes national teachers of the year
President Bush proclaims National Day of Prayer


May 2001
President Bush proclaims Law Day
President Bush announces formation of Social Security Commission
President Bush speaks at National Day of Prayer reception
President Bush proclaims Small Business Week
President Bush welcomes Amir of Bahrain to the White House
President Bush declares disaster exists in Illinois
President Bush speaks with math champs
President Bush speaks at 20th annual Peace Officers Memorial Service
President Bush declares disaster exists in Minnesota, Maine and Nebraska
President Bush signs Medal of Valor Bill
President Bush speaks to national leadership of the Hispanic faith-based organizations
President Bush meets with the Dalai Lama
President Bush speaks at U.S. Naval Academy Commencement
President Bush proclaims Prayer for Peace
President Bush delivers Memorial Day address at Arlington National Cemetery
President Bush announces National Parks Legacy Project.
President Bush Signs World War II Memorial Bill.
President Bush sign Executive Order: Actions Concerning Regulations that Significantly Affect Energy Supply, Distribution, or Use.

June 2001
President declares disaster exists in West Virginia
President Bush proclaims National Child's Day
President Bush Signs wildfire bill into law
June 4, 2001 President Bush speaks at Royal Palm Visitors Center in Everglades National Park
President Bush speaks to Habitat for Humanity Supporters
President Bush speaks at Dedication of National D-Day Memorial
President Bush signs tax cut bill reducing Federal Income Tax Rates and sends a refund to millions of Americans
President Bush speaks at the Fourth National Summit on Fatherhood
President Bush speaks at tax reduction celebration event in Iowa
President Bush holds press conference with President Jose Maria Aznar
President Bush speaks at the opening of NATO meeting in Brussels
President Bush holds press conference with President of the Republic of Poland, Aleksander Kwasniewski - Warsaw, Poland
U.S. and Poland sign Open Skies Agreement
President Bush holds press conference with Russian Federation President Putin
President Bush speaks at Summit on the 21st Century Work Force
President Bush declares disaster exists in Mississippi
President Bush declares disaster exists in Pennsylvania
U.S. and Poland sign comprehensive trade package
President discusses faith-based initiative at Conference of Mayors
President Bush and Prime Minister Sharon meet in Oval Office
President Bush meets with President of South Africa
President Bush meets with Prime Minister Koizumi of Japan - Camp David, Maryland


July 2001
President Bush visits Jefferson Memorial
President orders federal aid for Montana storm recovery
President Bush speaks to participants of America's Promise
President speaks to specialty doctors and patients on Patients' Bill of Rights
President Bush announces Medicare initiative
President participates in roundtable interview with foreign press
President Bush and President Chirac of France speak to the press - Genoa, Italy
President Bush and President Putin hold press conference - Genoa, Italy
President Bush meets with the Pope John Paul II - Rome, Italy
President Bush and Italian Prime Minister Berlusconi hold press conference - Rome, Italy
President Bush speaks to troops in Kosovo
President Bush recognizes 11th anniversary of Americans with Disabilities Act

August 2001
President Bush discusses first six months in office
President Bush signs Agriculture Supplemental Bill
President Bush speaks about character development at YMCA Picnic
Statement by the President about faith-based and community initiatives
President Bush signs Export Controls Executive Order
President to Bush visits workers at Harley Davidson factory
President Bush speaks with students at Crawford Elementary
President Bush announces Chairman of Joint Chiefs of Staff
President Bush gives tour of Crawford Ranch
President Bush speaks at Little League World Series
President Bush discusses defense priorities at American Legion
President and Mrs. Bush unveil new White House Web Site

September 2001
President Discusses economy at Teamsters barbecue in Detroit, Michigan
President Bush meets with President Fox of Mexico
President Bush proclaims National Birmingham Pledge Week
President Bus proclaims National POW/MIA Recognition Day.
Terrorist attack of September 11, 2001 over 3000 innocent Americans are killed.
Anthrax laced letters cause several deaths, closing post offices and delaying the delivery of mail across the US.
President proclaims National Day of Prayer and Remembrance
President Bush salutes heroes in New York at the site of the World Trade Center disaster
President Bush launches online American relief and response effort
President Bush signs Authorization for Use of Military Force Bill
President Bush authorizes additional disaster funding for New York
President Bush addresses a Joint Session of Congress and the American People after the attack on September 11, 2001- The Bush Doctrine on Terror
President Bush released $5.1 billion dollars to assist in the humanitarian, recovery, and security related to 9/11
President Bush signs Airline Transportation Bill to assure the safety and stability of the nation's commercial airlines
President Bush signs executive order freezing the assets of terrorist organizations
President Bush proclaims Family Day
President orders federal disaster aid for Florida
President Bush meets with the King of Jordan

October 2001
President Bush opens Reagan National Airport
President Bush proclaims National Breast Cancer Awareness Month
President Bush unveils back to work plan
President Bush initiates military action in Afghanistan dismantling the Taliban regime and liberating 25 million people
President speaks at 20th annual National Fallen Firefighters Memorial Tribute
President Bush signs Executive Order establishing Office of Homeland Security
Gov. Ridge sworn-in to lead Homeland Security
President Bush meets with Chancellor Schroeder of Germany
President Bush announces new Counter-Terrorism and CyberSpace Security Positions
President Bush unveils "Most Wanted" Terrorists
President Bush Proclaims Child Health Day.
President Bush Proclaims National Domestic Violence Awareness Month.
President Bush announces, "America's Fund for Afghan Children".
President Bush meets with Italian Prime Minister Berlusconi
President Bush rallies troops at Travis Air Force Base
President Bush meets with President Jiang Zemin - Shanghai, People's Republic of China
President Bush holds press conference with Russian President Vladimir - People's Republic of China
President Bush says terrorists won't change American way of life
President Bush announces education partnership with Muslim nations
President Bush signs the Patriot Act.
President Launches Bush "Lessons of Liberty"

November 2001
Airline crashes in Queens New York killing 255 people on board.
President Bush proclaims National Adoption Month.
President Bush proclaims World Freedom Day.
President Bush signs Presidential Records Act Executive Order.
President Bush signs Military Construction Appropriations Bill to improve quality of housing for military personnel.
President Bush signs National Emergency Construction Authority Executive Order
President Bush Acts to make holiday travel safer.
President Bush authorizes transfers from Emergency Response Fund.
President Bush signs Interior Appropriations Bill.
President Bush signs Internet Access Taxation Moratorium so the growth of the Internet is not slowed by taxation.
President Bush issues military order -Detention, Treatment, and Trial of Certain Non-Citizens in the War Against Terrorism

December 2001
Dec. 2, 2001: Enron, files for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection. He is attacked by Democrats wanting to know his involvement and then attacked by Democrats for not getting involved.
President Bush lights National Christmas Tree
President Bush proclaims Human Rights Day & Bill of Rights Week.
President Bush signs Afghan Women and Children Relief Act.
One of the worst winter snowstorms in 100 years leave ice and snow from Texas to New York.
President Bush empowers communities in the fight against illegal drug abuse
President Bush highlights administration's first-year accomplishments
President Bush signs Zimbabwe Democracy and Economic Recovery Act
President Bush establishes the first-ever International Wildlife Refuge
President Bush signs National Museum of African American History Act
President Bush grants permanent trade status to China
President Bush signs Defense Authorization Act - authorizing the funding necessary to defend the United States.
President Bush signs Intelligence Authorization Act authorizing appropriations to fund US intelligence, including activities essential to success in the war against global terrorism.

January 2002
President Bush holds town hall forum on economy in California
President Bush meets with economic advisors and Fed Chairman Greenspan
President Bush signs Landmark Education Bill
President Bush takes action to help restore Everglades
President Bush signs Brownfields Bill.
President Bush proclaims Religious Freedom Day
President Bush meets with labor leaders to discuss energy policy
President Bush honors Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.
President Bush signs Terrorism Relief Act providing tax relief to families of those killed in the attacks on September the 11th, the anthrax attacks and the Oklahoma City bombing.
President Bush increases the budget for border security.
President Bush announces substantial increases in Homeland Security budget.
President Bush meets with Afghan Interim Authority Chairman Hamid Karzai - White House
President Bush delivers State of the Union Address
President Bush signs Executive Order establishing the USA Freedom Corps
President Bus signs Investor & Capital Markets Fee Relief Act.

February 2002
President Bush names Faith-Based & Community Initiatives Director
President Bush proclaims National African American History Month
President Bush, Prime Minister Sharon discuss Middle East
President Bush announces plan to strengthen Peace Corps
President Bush Opens 2002 Olympic Games.
President Bush announces clear skies & global climate change initiatives
President Bush increases funding for Bioterrorism by 319 Percent.
President Bush, Prime Minister Koizumi of Japan hold press conference
President Bush Vvsits Demilitarized Zone
President Bush & President Kim Dae-Jung meet in Seoul
President Bush meets with Chinese President Jiang Zemin
President Bush speaks at Tsinghua University

March 2002
President Bush launches quality teacher initiative
President Bush welcomes President Mubarak to White House
President speaks at Hispanic Chamber of Commerce
Gov. Ridge, Deputy P.M. of Canada discuss smart border plan
President Bush signs Job Creation and Worker Assistance Act of 2002
President Bush proclaims West Point Bicentennial Day
President Bush meets with President Toledo in Peru
President Bush meets with President Flores in El Salvador
President Bush proclaims Greek Independence Day
President Bush signs Campaign Finance Reform Act.
President Bush outlines U.S. plan to help world's poor- proposes $5 billion plan to help developing nations.

April 2002
President Bush proclaims National Child Abuse Prevention Month
President Bush announces early childhood education initiative.
President Bush proclaims National Former Prisoner of War Recognition Day
President Bush promotes Citizen Corps for safer communities
President Bush calls on Senate to back human cloning ban
President Bush calls for Crime Victimsâ?? Rights Amendment
President Bush proclaims National Crime Victims' Rights Week
President Bush proclaims National Organ and Tissue Donor Awareness Week
President Bush meets with Crown Prince of Saudi Arabia
President Bush proclaims National Day of Prayer

May 2002
President Bush presents Congressional Medals of Honor
President Bush proclaims Law Day, U.S.A
President Bush proclaims National Charter Schools Week
President Bush proclaims Loyalty Day
President Bush signs Farm Bill
President Bush meets with Prime Minister Sharon
President Bush signs Border Security and Visa Entry Reform Act.
President Bush proclaims Armed Forces Day
President Bush addresses National Hispanic Prayer Breakfast
President Bush proclaims National Missing Children's Day
President Bush and Russian President Putin Sign Nuclear Arms Treaty
President Bush meets with French President Chirac
President Bush commemorates Memorial Day at Normandy

June 2002
President Bush delivers graduation speech at West Point
President Bush proclaims National Homeownership Month
President Bush proclaims National Child's Day
President Bush commemorates one-year anniversary of tax relief
President Bush meets with Egyptian President Mubarak
President Bush Meets with Prime Minister Sharon
President Bush signs Public Health Security and Bioterrorism Bill
President Bush signs Export-Import Bank Act
President Bush promotes new mother and child HIV prevention initiative
President Bush visits displaced families in Arizona


July 2002
President Bush commemorates Lewis and Clark bicentennial
President Bush orders federal aid for Guam for disaster relief
President awards posthumous Medal of Honor to Vietnam War hero
President Bush, President Kwasniewski of Poland hold joint press conference
President Bush, Mrs. Bush & Bruce Willis announce adoption initiative
President Bush proclaims Parents' Day
President Bush proclaims National Korean War Veterans Armistice Day
President Bush signs Corporate Corruption Bill

August 2002
President Bush, King Abdullah discuss Middle East Peace
President Bush signs Trade Act of 2002.
President Bush tours area damaged by Squires fire
President Bush discusses education with Hispanic leaders
President Bush proclaims Women's Equality Day
West Coast Port workers strike lasts two months and costs the US economy one billion dollars a day.
President Bush signs Born-Alive Infants Protection Act.
President Bush signs executive order prescribing regulations relating to the safeguarding of vessels, harbors, ports, and waterfront facilities of the United States.

September 2002
President Bush proclaims Patriot Day
President Bush proclaims National Alcohol and Drug Addiction Recovery Month
President Bush, Prime Minister Blair discuss keeping the peace
President Bush holds roundtable with Arab- and Muslim-American leaders
President Bush addresses the United Nations General Assembly
President Bush proclaims National Hispanic Heritage Month
President Bush meets with Prime Minister of Italy at Camp David
President Bush introduces history & civic education initiatives
President Bush proclaims National POW/MIA Recognition Day
President Bush proclaims Family Day
President Bush, Colombia President Uribe discuss terrorism
President Bush sends Iraq Resolution to Congress.

October 2002
President Bush proclaims National Domestic Violence Awareness Month
President Bush proclaims Child Health Day
President Bush proclaims German-American Day
President Bush proclaims National School Lunch Week
President Bush condemns attack in Bali
President Bush welcomes Prime Minister Sharon to White House
The Beltway Sniper paralyzes Maryland, Virginia and Washington.
President Bush proclaims National Character Counts Week
President Bush acts to protect pensions and retirement security for all Americans.
President Bush, Chinese President Jiang Zemin discuss Iraq, N. Korea
President Bush signs historic election reform legislation into law- Help America Vote Act.
President Bush proclaims National Alzheimer's Disease Awareness Month
President Bush signs two bills improve health care. The first to increase the number of community health care centers and the second to provide faster access to safe and effective medical devices.

November 2002
President Bush proclaims National Adoption Month
President Bush proclaims National Hospice Month
National Employer Support of the Guard and Reserve Week
President Bush signs Pledge of Allegiance Bill reaffirming one Nation under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance, and "In God we trust" as the National Motto
President Bush proclaims America Recycles Day
President Bush, President Havel of Czech Republic discuss Iraq, NATO
President Bush, P.M. Blair meet in Prague
President Bush proclaims National Family Week
President Bush welcomes Romania to NATO
President Bush signs Homeland Security Act
President Bush signs Terrorism Insurance Act
President Bush signs 911 Commission Bill

December 2002
President Bush signs Executive Order: Equal Protection of the Laws for Faith-based and Community Organizations.
President signs National Defense Authorization Act.
President Bush lights National Christmas Tree
President Bush proclaims National Pearl Harbor Remembrance Day
President Bush signs E-Government Act.
President Bush signs Wetlands Conservation Act
President Bush proclaims Human Rights Day, Bill of Rights Day; Human Rights Week
President Bush implements key elements of his faith-based initiative
President Bush visits D.C. Food Bank
President Bush speaks to the people of Iran


January 2003
President Bush proclaims National Mentoring Month
President Bush rallies troops at Fort Hood
President Bush celebrates first anniversary of No Child Left Behind
President Bush signs National Flood Insurance Act.
President Bush proclaims National Sanctity of Human Life Day
President Bush proclaims Religious Freedom Day
President Bush meets with wounded soldiers at medical center
President Bush honors Martin Luther King, Junior in church service
Tom Ridge sworn in as Secretary of Homeland Security
President Bush delivers "State of the Union"
President Bush meets with Italian Prime Minister Berlusconi
President commemorates 1st Anniversary of Freedom Corps
President Bush meets with Prime Minister Blair

February 2003
The Space Shuttle Columbia breaks up over the United States upon reentry into the atmosphere killing all aboard.
President Bush addresses the nation on Space Shuttle Columbia tragedy
President Bush attends memorial service for Columbia astronauts
President Bush meets with Prime Minister Howard of Australia
President Bush signs executive order transferring certain functions to Homeland Security.
Secretary of State Colin Powell addresses the U.N. Security Council
President Bush meets with Spanish President Jose Maria Aznar
President Bush meets with National Economic Council
President Bush wlcomes employees to Department of Homeland Security

March 2003
President Bush signs executive order establishing the Global War on Terrorism Medals
President Bush welcomes Irish leaders to White House
President Bush signs executive order: Blocking property of persons undermining Democratic processes in Zimbabwe
President Bush rallies troops at MacDill Air Force Base in Tampa
President Bush proclaims National Child Abuse Prevention Month
President Bush says Saddam Hussein must leave Iraq within 48 Hours
Operation Iraqi Freedom. President Bush initiates military with Iraq dismantling the Saddam Hussein regime and liberating 22 million people.

April 2003
President Bush proclaims National Donate Life Month
President to welcome Singapore Prime Minister to White House
President Bush meets with Prime Minister Blair in Northern Ireland
President Bush proclaims National D.A.R.E. Day
President Bush proclaims Loyalty Day
President Bush proclaims National Volunteer Week
President Bush speaks to the people of Iraq
President Bush signs Protect Act- Amber Alert Bill expanding nationwide a rapid-response network to help find kidnapped children.
President Bush proclaims National Day of Prayer

May 2003
President Bush lands on USS Lincoln. It was the first time a sitting president has arrived on the deck of an aircraft carrier by plane
President Bush announces combat operations in Iraq have ended
President Bush signs U.S.-Singapore Free Trade Agreement
President Bush proclaims Peace Officers Memorial Day and Police Week
President Bush welcomes President Arroyo in state arrival ceremony
President Bush meets with Japanese Prime Minister Koizumi
President Bush signs Jobs and Growth Tax Relief Reconciliation Act of 2003.
President Bush signs The United States Leadership Against HIV/AIDS, Tuberculosis, and Malaria Act of 2003.
President Bush signs executive order establishing the Bob Hope American Patriot Award.
President Bush signs executive order protecting the Development Fund for Iraq and other property in which Iraq has an interest
President Bush proclaims National Child's Day

June 2003
President Bush and Russian President Putin sign Treaty of Moscow
President Bush meets with President Mubarak of Egypt
President Bush meets with leaders of Jordan, Israel and Palestinian Authority
President Bush proclaims Flag Day and National Flag Week
President Bush proclaims June 2003 as National Homeownership Month
President Bush welcomes Brazilian President Lula to White House
President Bush signs "Keeping Children Safe Act"
President Bush signs Welfare Reform Extension Act of 2003, which extends the Temporary Assistance for Needy Families block grant program and certain related programs.

July 2003
President Bush names Randall Tobias to be Global AIDS Coordinator
President Bush speaks at Goree Island in Senegal.
President Bush meets with South African President Mbeki
President discusses AIDS Initiative, Iraq in Botswana
President Bush meets with President Obasanjo of Nigeria
President Bush, Prime Minister Blair hold Press Conference on war on terrorism
President Bush highlights health and fitness initiative
President Bush proclaims Captive Nations Week
President Bush, PM Berlusconi discuss Iraq and war on terrorism
Uday and Qusay Hussein are killed during raid in Iraq.
President Bush discusses new initiative to stop illegal logging
President Bush welcomes Prime Minister Abbas to White House
President Bush honors 2003 Presidential Medal of Freedom recipients
President Bush names Randall Tobias to be Global AIDS Coordinator

August 2003
President Bush thanks military remarks by the President to military personnel and families - Miramar, California
President Bush signs executive order blocking removal of Iraqi property from that country by the former Iraqi regime, its senior officials and their family members
President Bush proclaims Women's Equality Day
President Bush proclaims September 22, 2003, as Family Day
President Bush Promotes Healthy Forests in Arizona
President Bush delivers remarks to 85th American Legion Convention

September 2003
President Bush signs Chile, Singapore Free Trade Agreement Bills
President Bush signs Prison Rape Elimination Act of 2003
President Bush proclaims Patriot Day
President Bush commends military in speech at Fort Stewart, Georgia
President Bush unveils Nation's Founding Documents at the National Archives
President Bush proclaims Citizenship Day and Constitution Week
President Bush, King Abdullah of Jordan meet at Camp David
President Bush proclaims National Hispanic Heritage Month
President Bush welcomes Iraqi Ministers to Oval Office
President Bush addresses United Nations General Assembly
President Bush, Chancellor Schroeder meet at United Nations
President Bush meets with Russian President Putin at Camp David
President Bush signs Do Not Call Registry

October 2003
President Bush proclaims Marriage Protection Week.
President Bush proclaims Child Health Day
President Bush proclaims General Pulaski Memorial Day, 2003
President Bush addresses the Philippine Congress
President Bush meets with President Hu Jintao ofChina
President Bush meets with South Korean President Roh
President Bush signs Homeland Security Appropriations Bill
President Bush proclaims October as Domestic Violence Awareness Month
President Bush addresses the Australian Parliament
President Bush proclaims National Character Counts Week

November 2003
President Bush Signs Partial Birth Abortion Ban Act of 2003
President Bush proclaims World Freedom Day
President Bush proclaims November 2003 as National Adoption Month
President Bush Meets with Iraqi women leaders
President Bush Signs the Animal Drug User Fee Act of 2003
President Bush proclaims National Family Week
President Bush signs Military Construction Appropriations Act
President Bush signs the National Defense Authorization Act
President Bush meets with troops in Iraq on Thanksgiving

December 2003
President Bush proclaims World AIDS Day
President Bush signs the Adoption Promotion Act of 2003
President Bush signs Nanotechnology Research and Development Act
President Bush signs Healthy Forest Restoration Act
President Bush signs Fair and Accurate Credit Transactions Act
President Bush signs Medicare Prescription Drug, Improvement and Modernization Act of 2003
Saddam Hussein is captured in Iraq
President Bush signs American Dream Downpayment Act of 2003
Libya pledges to dismantle WMD programs

January 2004
President Bush celebrates 2nd anniversary of No Child Left Behind Act
President Bush proclaims National Mentoring Month
President Bush, President Fox meet with reporters in Mexico
President Bush speaks at Summit of the Americas ceremony
President Bush and President Aznar of Spain Meet- Oval Office
President Bush speaks with faith-based and community leaders
President Bush proclaims National Sanctity of Human Life Day
President Bush proclaims Religious Freedom Day
President Bush delivers the State of the Union Address
President Bush celebrates two-year anniversary of USA Freedom Corps
President Bush meets with the nations top economists

February 2004
President Bush proclaims National Consumer Protection Week
President Bush meets with U.N. Secretary General Kofi Annan
President Bush proclaims National African American History Month
President Bush Announces Formation of Independent Commission to look at American intelligence capabilities
President announces new measures to counter the threat of WMD
President Bush meets with President of Tunisia
President and Mrs. Bush's dog spot passes on
President Bush speaks to the National Governors Association
President Bush signs Executive Order encouraging innovation in manufacturing
President Bush calls for Constitutional Amendment protecting marriage
President Bush welcomes Georgian President Saakashvili to White House
President Bush welcomes German Chancellor Schroeder to White House

March 2004
President Bush marks Homeland Security's accomplishments at year one
President Bush speaks at faith-based and community initiatives conference
President Bush signs Social Security Protection Act of 2004
President Bush proclaims Women's History Month
President Bush and Mexican President Fox meet in Crawford, Texas
President Bush commends recipients of Malcolm Baldridge Awards
President Bush and PM of the Netherlands meet at the White House
President Bush welcomes Prime Minister Ahern of Ireland for St. Patrick's Day
President Bush welcomes seven nations to the NATO Alliance
President Bush announces Dr. Rice to provide public testimony to commission
President Bush welcomes baseball Hall of Famers to White House

April 2004
President Bush signs Unborn Victims of Violence Act of 2004
President Bush proclaims National Child Abuse Prevention Month
308,000 Americans find work in March
President Bush proclaims National Donate Life Month
President Bush and Egyptian President Mubarak meet with reporters
President Bush meets with Israeli Prime Minister Sharon
President Bush proclaims National Crime Victims' Rights Week
President Bush announces wetlands initiative on Earth Day
President Bush presents Environmental Youth Awards
U.S. eases economic embargo against Libya
President Bush unveils Tech initiatives for energy, health care, Internet
President Bush meets with Swedish Prime Minister Persson
President Bush welcomes Canadian Prime Minister Martin to White House
President Bush proclaims Older Americans Month
President Bush proclaims National Charter Schools Week
President Bush proclaims National Day of Prayer

May 2004
President Bush meets with the Commission for Assistance to a Free Cuba
President Bush proclaims Asian/Pacific American Heritage Month
Interview of the President Bush by Al-Ahram International
President Bush meets with King of Jordan
President Bush condemns brutal execution of Nicholas Berg
President Bush speaks at the American Conservative Union 40th Anniversary Gala
President Bush delivers commencement address at Concordia University
President Bush honors the nation's fallen law enforcement officers
President speaks at Brown v Board of Education National Historic Site
President Bush meets with Greek Prime Minister Karamanlis
President Bush delivers commencement address at Louisiana State
President Bush speaks at National World War II Memorial dedication
President Bush observes Memorial Day at Arlington National Cemetery

June 2004
President Bush speaks at Air Force Academy Graduation
President Bush meets with Australian Prime Minister John Howard - White House
President Bush presents Medal of Freedom to Pope - The Vatican, Italy
President Bush remarks on the passing of President Ronald Reagan
President Bush meets with Prime Minister Berlusconi - Rome, Italy
President Bush, President Chirac mark 60th anniversary of D-Day - Normandy, France
President Bush proclaims Great Outdoors Month
President Bush proclaims D-Day National Remembrance Day
President Bush proclaims National Child's Day
President Bush attends the G8 Summit - Sea Island, Georgia
President Bush delivers eulogy at funeral service for President Reagan
President Bush proclaims Flag Day and National Flag Week
President Bush welcomes President Clinton and Senator Clinton for portrait unveiling
President Bush meets with President Karzai of Afghanistan - White House
President Bush salutes the military at Macdill Air Force Base in Tampa
President Bush salutes soldiers in Fort Lewis, Washington
President Bush welcomes Prime Minister of Hungary
President commemorates Black Music Month at White House
President Bush meets with Religious Leaders - Istanbul, Turkey
President Bush discusses democracy, freedom from Turkey - Istanbul, Turkey

July 2004
President Commemorates 40th Anniversary of Civil Rights Act
President Bush announces over 1.5 million jobs created and 10 straight months of job gains
President Bush speaks at 4th of July Celebration West Virginia State Capitol Grounds
President Bush welcomes Iceland Prime Minister to White House
President Bush signs African Growth and Opportunity Act
President Bush signs Identity Theft Penalty Enhancement Act
President Bush announces initiatives to combat human trafficking
President Bush welcomes President Lagos of Chile to White House
President Bush welcomes Malaysian Prime Minister to White House
President Bush signs Project Bioshield Act of 2004
President emphasizes minority entrepreneurship at Urban League
President's speaks to the Athletes of the International Children's Games and Cultural Festival - Cleveland, Ohio

August 2004
President Bush signs Department of Defense Appropriations Act
President Bush Signs U.S.-Australia Free Trade Agreement
President Bush meets with Prime Minister Belka of Poland
President Bush nominates Congressman Porter Goss as Director of CIA
President Bush tours hurricane damage in Florida
President Bush speaks at VFW convention
President Bush declares National Airborne Day, 2004
President Bush signs executive order establishing National Counterterrorism Center
President Bush signs executive order for strengthened management of the intelligence community
President Bush signs executive order strengthening the sharing of terrorism information to protect Americans
President Bush signs executive order establishing the president's board on safeguarding Americans' civil liberties

September 2004
President Bush speaks to the 2004 Republican National Convention
President Bush proposes new "opportunity zones"
President Bush proclaims Minority Enterprise Development Week, 2004
President Bush proclaims Patriot Day
President Bush proclaims National Days of Prayer and Remembrance, 2004
President Bush proclaims National Alcohol and Drug Addiction Recovery Month, 2004
President Bush proclaims National POW/MIA Recognition Day, 2004
President Bush celebrates Hispanic Heritage Month
President Bush proclaims Citizenship Day and Constitution Week, 2004
President Bush meets with first responders in Alabama
President Bush meets with Iraq Prime Minister Allawi
President Bush visits flood area of Pennsylvania
President Bush proclaims National Hunting and Fishing Day, 2004
President Bush proclaims Gold Star Mother's Day, 2004
President Bush tours hurricane damage in Florida

October 2004
President Bush and Senator Kerry hold first 2004 presidential debate
President Bush proclaims National Breast Cancer Awareness Month, 2004
President Signs Working Families Tax Relief Act of 2004
President Bush proclaims United States-Israel Agreement on Trade in Agricultural Products, 2004
President Bush proclaims Child Health Day, 2004
President Bush and Senator Kerry hold second 2004 presidential debate
President Bush proclaims General Pulaski Memorial Day, 2004
President and General Tommy Franks's hold rally in Morrison, Colorado
President Bush and Senator Kerry hold third 2004 presidential debate
President Bush proclaims National Mammography Day, 2004
President Bush congratulates 2004 Olympic and Paralympic teams
President Bush proclaims National Character Counts Week, 2004
President Bush proclaims National Disability Employment Awareness Month, 2004
Service-Disabled Veterans Executive Order By the authority vested in me as President by the Constitution and the laws of the President Bush signs executive order to strengthen opportunities in Federal contracting for service-disabled veteran businesses
President Bush signs Ronald Reagan National Defense Authorization Act, 2005

November 2004
President and Mrs. Bush's Remarks at a RNC pre-election victory 2004 rally at Moody Coliseum at Southern Methodist University
President Bush thanks Americans in acceptance speech after election victory
President Bush proclaims National American Indian Heritage Month, 2004
President Bush proclaims National Family Caregivers Month, 2004
President Bush proclaims National Hospice Month, 2004
Mrs. Bush Officially Reopens Pennsylvania Avenue
President Bush proclaims World Freedom Day, 2004
President Bush nominates judge Al Gonzales as next Attorney General
Millennium Challenge account eligible countries for FY 2005
President Bush honors veterans at Arlington National Cemetery
President and Prime Minister Blair meet to discuss Iraq, Middle East
President Bush nominates Condoleezza Rice as Secretary of State
President Bush nominates Margaret Spellings as Secretary of Education
President Bush speaks at the Clinton Presidential Center
President's speaks at CEO Summit closing session in Chile
President Bush's Thanksgiving Day 2004 Proclamation
President Bush proclaims National Family Week, 2004
President Bush nominates Carlos Gutierrez as Secretary of Commerce
President Bush and Canadaian Prime Minister Martin meet to discuss common goals in Ottowa, Canada

December 2004
President Bush nominates Governor Mike Johanns as Secretary of Agriculture
President Bush proclaims National Drunk and Drugged Driving Prevention Month, 2004
President Bush makes statement in support of Aung San Suu Kyi
President Bush and President Musharraf discuss international relations and commerce at White House
President Bush and Iraqi interim President Al-Yawer discuss Iraq future at White House
President Bush thanks military personnel and families for serving our country at Camp Pendleton, California
President Bush nominates Jim Nicholson as the Secretary of Veterans Affairs
President Bush proclaims Human Rights Day, Bill of Rights Day, and Human Rights Week, 2004
President Bush nominates Sam Bodman as Secretary of Energy
President Bush signs the Veterans Benefits Improvement Act of 2004
President Bush nominates Mike Leavitt as Secretary of HHS
President Bush and Italian Prime Minister discuss Middle East and economy at the White House
President Bush presents Medals of Freedom to George Tenet, General Tommy Franks and Jerry Bremer
President Bush signs Intelligence Reform and Terrorism Prevention Act
President and Mrs. Bush visit with soldiers and their families at Walter Reed Army Medical Center
President Bush signs the Specialty Crops Competitiveness Act, 2004
President Bush proclaims To Take Certain Actions under the African Growth and Opportunity Act
President Bush's Christmas Message, 2004
President Bush signs the Comprehensive Peace in Sudan Act of 2004
President Bush makes statement on Bay of Bengal earthquake and Tsunami
President Bush to send delegation to assess tsunami relief aid
President Bush commits $350 million for tsunami relief efforts

January 2005
President Bush asks former Presidents Bush and Clinton to help raise funds for tsunami relief
President Bush signs Accelerating Income Tax Benefits for Charitable Contributions for Tsunami Victims
President Bush nominates Michael Chertoff as Secretary of Homeland Security
President Bush proclaims National Mentoring Month, 2005
President Bush proclaims National Sanctity of Human Life Day, 2005
President Bush proclaims Religious Freedom Day, 2005
President Bush honors Secretary, Mrs. Powell at 'Let Freedom Ring' event
President Bush thanks Armed Forces at 'Saluting Those Who Serve' event
President Bush thanks military, guests at 'Celebration of Freedom' concert

George Bush Accomplishments - The first four years from Boycottliberalism.com

I can't help but noticing that all the "good" stuff he apparently did quoted by rebgirl420 is in my opinion pretty much all random junk any pres would have done, I can't see anything outstanding. I think the current state of the U.S. speaks greatly about the talent Bush has at governing and don't try saying he was president during a shit storm because he's the one who took a shit on the U.S. with this bogus ass war that I cannot believe I am even paying one cent towards.

He has to be the worst president in my lifetime and hopefully the worst I will ever see but he has not been the worst and there will most likely be worst than that in the future. Because of his horrible ideas, I have to say my opinion about the U.S. has dropped to a record low because I cannot imagine a stupider and more close-minded, regressive bunch of fcuktards than the American republicans (American democrats are perhaps barely better) (I know I generalize, but that's honestly my opinion about the U.S. right now).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rebgirl420

He'ne some good stuff. He may not be a great president but he has done some good. Like the fact that he's given MILLIONS and MILLIONS of dollars to Aids research and to Africa. If you ask me thats good. And jujst so you know he's given more to Africa and Aids than ANY other president out there. More than Billy Clinton.

---

Giving MILLIONS and MILLIONS away....

The Outstanding U.S. National Public Debt as of 11 Mar 2008 at 10:07:47 PM GMT is:
$9,398,439,625,546.57 :thumbsup:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rebgirl420

...the fact that he's actually helping us save the second admendment that seems to be trampled on daily.

---

:what:

Bad Brief - The Bush DOJ shoots at the Second Amendment.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rebgirl420

And the Bush tax cuts helped out countless mid class citezens.

---

:what:

Bush tax-cuts benefited the rich, not "countless mid class citezens"

Year-by-Year Analysis of the Bush Tax Cuts Shows Growing Tilt to the Very Rich

STUDIES SHED NEW LIGHT ON EFFECTS OF ADMINISTRATIONâ??S TAX CUTS

Tax Cuts Offer Most for Very Rich, Study Says

Do you have any sources for those claims? (Other than giving millions away to Africa...that I believe. lol.)

Lmao; look at what that list contains as Bush's "accomplishments":

• May 2003: President Bush lands on USS Lincoln. It was the first time a sitting president has arrived on the deck of an aircraft carrier by plane!
• December 2001: President Bush lights National Christmas Tree!
• May 2001: President Bush speaks with math champs!
• August 2001: President Bush visits workers at Harley Davidson factory!

I won't go on...

:S2:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by norkali

Bush tax-cuts benefited the rich, not "countless mid class citezens"

---

Bush has even said before that his "base" is the elite, the rich. But do you have any idea what kind of taxes his "base" have to pay because of the amount of money they make per year? Take a look at how much in taxes the top 1% of Americans pay every year, even with the 3% tax cut that was given to them. Over-taxing the rich just because they're rich isn't going to do much in the way of making any economy flourish, because the rich have ways of tying up their investments and assets in ways where they legally can't be taxed for much of it. The "Bush Tax Cut" argument isn't even an argument, it's mostly liberal crybabies who are just looking to talk trash about the administration every chance they get. Very few actually look at how the numbers have positively affected our economy:

NCPA | Taxes and Growth

And sadly, this seems to be the end-all answer for many of todays Democrats. Raise taxes on the rich, to lift the burden off the middle class. But the middle class will still end up struggling to pay their taxes, while the ultra wealthy can still afford to buy a new yacht in the summer. Nothing will change, and even the Hillary/Obama duo are backing off their threats of raising taxes on the rich, because now look who's throwing tons of money in their general election, err... I mean direction. There are many ways to stimulate a struggling economy, unfortunate that our most prominent Democrats have no clue what they are.

Hey I never said they were deep people. I'm just trying to prove that indeed he has done SOME things that were positive.

I never claimed he's the best president ever. I'm just saying that you can't go and say he's the worst president or even so incredibly horrible.

The man has had to make some hard decisions. War time presidents are hardly ever popular at the time. Cut him some freaking slack. I bet in 20 years he'll be seen as a decent president.

I mean hell. At least he's no Jimmy Carter! Or Andrew Johnson! Nixon! James Polk, William McKinley, or Lyndon Baines Johnson!

And look at the other options at the time! John Kerry and Al Gore! So I'm assuming you George Bush haters think that they could have done oh so much better.

I severely doubt they would have.

So my conclusion ends at the point that George Bush is no where close to the "best" president. But I assure you he's not the worst. And he has done some decent things.




(and Mr.Clandestine is correct. "Taking from the rich and giving to the poor" sounds fantastic, most liberal ideas do, at least on paper. But that's doing nothing but redistributing wealth. And that is not fair in the least. We should not be punishi9ng the rish. Thank your lucky ass that America is indeed a capitalist nation. If it wasn't you wouldn't have half the shit you do now. And he's also right that indeed the economy is messed up but raising taxes isn't going to help!)