Foliar Feeding and Liquid Light, Part two: The Reckoning.

Intro

Itâ??s been suggested that we need a good thread about foliar feeding in general, and a product called Liquid Light in particular. I agree. Iâ??m not sure how good this thread will be but Iâ??ll try. I was a little surprised when I started asking questions around here about foliar feeding, and it was like deer in headlights or something. Huh, whatâ??s that sonny? Speak up a bit. Folgers feeding? Why we were doing that thing with the coffee years ago. No gramps, foliar feeding. Hereâ??s a â??couldnâ??t have said it better myselfâ?� from wikipedia.org:

Foliar Feeding is a relatively new, technique of feeding plants by applying liquid fertiliser directly to their leaves. In some cases, a dramatic example being tomatoes, this goes against long-standing strictures against ever allowing the leaves to get wet. Read more.

Notice the quote says â??relatively newâ?�. Now I understand how terrifiying the concept of new things can be for some of us, but think about it; at some point everything was new. Until recently, feeding through the leaves if thought of at all, was thought of mostly as only being good for a fix to some situation that is wrong. Well believe it or not there other reasons to foliar feed.

Foliar feeding advantages

- Itâ??s is a wonderfully simple insurance policy for your grow. Foliar feeding takes much less time than mixing up nutrients for a root feeding, and it can almost instantly begin to protect your plants from everything from mold to trace nutrient deficiencies. Basically it can aid in the recovery from, and protect against all manner of stress.

- It works fast, as mentioned above. Feeding through the leaves is almost instant, while uptake through roots can take hours, or more likely days.

- Feeding through the leaves is much more efficient. Nearly 100% of the food is utilized.

- Itâ??s great for organic gardening, which sometimes makes it difficult for plants to uptake the required trace nutrients. The trace elements are far more readily absorbed through the leaves.

- A similar situation can occur in hydro gardens. PH fluctuations and some other considerations may happen that are not as likely in soil. These fluctuations can cause certain elements to get locked out, or at least more difficult to uptake. A quick dose of foliar feeding with the proper trace nutrients nearly immediately remedies the situation, and then regular feedings will aid in prevention.

- Are you one of those weirdos concerned with yield? I know most of you just grow for the fun of it, and donâ??t really care if you get weed or not. For the rest of us foliar feeding is great, because it can greatly increase yield. Or what about quality? Do aroma, taste and gobs of essential oils concern you at all? Foliar feeding can increase all of that.

- When you foliar feed you get to watch one of the most amazing things in gardening that you have ever seen. Iâ??m talking about what happens when you apply Liquid Light.

Quotes about foliar feeding

Hereâ??s a few choice quotes and the web site they belong to:

Comparing efficiency of plant use of foliar-fed nutrients versus soil-applied nutrients near roots, they found foliar feeding provided about 95 percent efficiency of use compared to about 10 percent of use from soil applications! Likewise, speed of absorption and use by foliar applications was immediateâ?¦
http://www.agresponse.com/tukey.htm

Plant uptake of nutrients can be 100% to 900% more effective when the foods are applied to leaves rather than to soil.
https://www.motherearthnews.com/Organic-Gardening/1988-05-01/Foliar-Feeding.aspx

A figure commonly used for the increased production is 10%, but in crops such as legumes this can be raised to as high as 25%. There are many other benefits other than increased yield. These can include such diverse advantages as increase in protein in alfalfa hay, greater prevention of frost damage, better return bloom in fruit, and even less respiration in stored crops.â?�
http://www.montysplantfood.com/research/foliar_feeding.htm

Even when hydroponic crops may appear to be well supplied with the necessary nutrients, it has been shown that they can still benefit from application of foliar fertilizers. Foliar fertilization was found in a number of studies involving hydroponically grown crops such as capsicum and potato, to dramatically increase yields. A weekly foliar feed applied to tomato crops grown in rockwool, also produced substantial improvements in both quality and quantity of the yields. It is believed that similar results can be obtained with a number of hydroponic crops with similar nutrient requirements. According to experts in the field, the process of foliar fertilization, is likely to emerge as a growth enhancing cultivation technique in the near future rather than just a 'quick fix' solution for mineral deficiency symptoms.
http://www.buzzle.com/articles/foliar-fertilization-in-hydroponics.html

In sugar beet, which has a large leaf area, foliar sprays with three per- cent N, P, K increased the fresh weight of roots and sugar yield by 31 and 40 per cent, respectively. One area where foliar application is most effective is in the control of micronutrient deficiencies. Foliar application for the control of B, Cu, Mg, Mn and Zn has been in vogue for a long time and in many crops because of prompt increase in the yield of vegetablesâ?¦
http://www.dawn.com/2006/12/25/ebr7.htm

My testimonial

Slightly interested yet? Maybe this will help a little. Never in my life have I witnessed anything more amazing in the world of horticulture than what happened the first time I foliar fed with a product called Liquid Light from a company called Dutch Master. As I write this, it is still unavailable in a few of the backwater hick towns like the ones I live near. Not because they donâ??t want to sell it, believe me they would love to get some in stock. No, the people who regulate that kind of thing around here havenâ??t decided if theyâ??re going to let us use it yet. It might just be too advanced for us common folk. I sure am glad big brother is holding my hand; I wouldnâ??t want to have to think on my own. However, it is widely available through the internet, so everyone can get some if they so desire.

I first heard of Liquid Light (which from now on Iâ??ll refer to as LL) when I was doing a search on foliar feeding. I donâ??t remember where I first read about it, but LL was portrayed as some sort of miracle food. One startling claim that nearly turned me away was that LL would turn your 400 watt light into a 600 watt light, without extra energy or heat build up. Iâ??m pretty sure I still donâ??t believe that, but I do believe that it can take your 400 watt light and turn it into a 450 watt light, or something like that. LL supposedly works by supercharging chloroplasts, which are the specialized cells responsible for turning solar power into usable sugars (food). How it does this I have no idea, even after looking at the 5 megabyte training sheet on the Dutch Master web site. To be honest though, I mostly just skimmed, because I donâ??t really care how it works.

And does it really work? Heck yes. I couldnâ??t believe my eyes. I got a free sample from they guy at the hydro shop and tried it the next morning. The hydro guy was very excited about it, and he went on and on about what it did for his plants. I came nowhere close to believing all the hype, but that evening when I looked in on my plants, my jaw hit the floor and I could barely believe what I was seeing. The plants looked like they had grown several inches in 10 hours. I wish I would have taken a before and after photo. The plants were noticeably taller, and the leaves were acting crazy. A couple here and there had curled and twisted all weird-like, but most had stretch out and up as far as they possibly could. That grow I was having a little problem with droopiness, but that problem certainly no longer existed. The curled leaves soon reverted to normal, and weeks after my last application the leaves were still standing at attention. If youâ??ve ever seen a cold bird basking in the sun, well itâ??s kinda like that. The wings are stretched out as far as possible like they are trying to capture every last drop of energy. Thatâ??s what the leaves look like after foliar feeding with LL. I was so impressed that I bought all items necessary for an all-Dutch Master grow, which will follow the schedule in their nutrient calculator. (Log coming soon.) I was also swayed some by reading their web site. Thereâ??s a lot of good info there.

OK, if youâ??re still not interested then perhaps this isnâ??t for you. (Too obvious?) I seriously think you would be glad if you just tried it a few times, maybe just on one plant, and see what might happen. There are not many products that I know of that literally everyone Iâ??ve heard comment about, has nothing but amazement in their tone and good things in their words. Of course there are many other things to foliar feed with, and I highly recommend trying some of those if you think you might have a deficiency, or just want to give your plants an instant boost or some protection. Rhizome recommended that I try some Spray-N-Grow for my probable iron deficiency, and Iâ??m pretty sure It helped. Since I did it after flowering had begun, I didnâ??t get to do many applications.

How to foliar feed

Iâ??ll supply links to all the stuff Iâ??ve tried at the end of this. For now lets talk about how to foliar feed. As far as I know, and I am by no means an expert, there are two ways to foliar feed. There is the LL way, and the other way. Normally one would spray during the coolest part of the day, when the stomata are most likely to be open. In general the stomata are on the underside of the leaves, and they function kinda like a mouth. Thatâ??s where the moisture and food go in. When things get hot or cold, the stomata close and respiration slows greatly or stops. There is no need to foliar feed when that happens. So most directions say to feed in the early morning or later evening. If growing under lights, then you would do it as soon as the lights come on or as late as you can before the lights go off. The stomata will still be open for awhile after lights out, but it would be best if the plants could have the food when the lights are on. On the other hand if you are using LL you must apply it when the lights are on. If not you are wasting it. Therefore there is really only one time when you should be applying LL and thatâ??s as soon as the lights come on or a couple minutes before.

My random tips

Here are a few tips from the knowledge base in the back, upper left of my head:

- Spray LL and other foods as soon as the lights come on. You can also spray other foods just before lights out, but not LL.

- For best results from LL, spray with the lights as close as possible, but respect the minimum called for in the Dutch Master directions. I think it was something like 16 inches.

- Be careful and donâ??t get moisture on hot HID lighting, or any hot lighting for that matter. There is a possibility of explosion. If you have a glass cover over a hot light, that could shatter as well.

- Try to use a good spray bottle that has a nozzle which will finely atomize the moisture particles. The finer the mist, the more likely it is to penetrate into the canopy. A fog would be best. Also try to get a nozzle that sprays with a full cone pattern. This means if you were to spray a dye on the wall you would see a complete and evenly filled in circle, rather than just the outer edge of a circle. After trying about 8 spray bottles that cost under $5, I broke down and bought the $15 sprayer in the pictures below. It isnâ??t wonderful, but itâ??s pretty good. It comes with an extra extended nozzle, and you pump it up and press a button to spray. It has a different button to release the pressure. Iâ??ve seen spray bottles in the $100 range, and weâ??ve even talked in another thread about using an air brush or paint sprayer. Some professional growers have permanent spray nozzle systems on timers.

- As far as how often to foliar feed, in general I think about every 2 or 3 days is safe. Just follow the directions for a starting point. Liquid Light directions call for applications once every 3 days, or every 2 days for aggressive feeding. Other foods normally recommend 1 or 2 times per week, but some say you can do it how ever often you so desire, and without any adverse effects. Also I think it depends on the strength of your solution. Weak solutions could be applied more often. Also organic solutions are more likely to be safe to just let it fly whenever you want.

- How long can I keep the solution once I mix it up? That varies, depending on which food you are using. Check the directions. Liquid Light solution is good for 5 or 6 days I think, while the Spray-N-Grow solution is only good for 5 or 6 hours. Spray-N-Grow has some catalyst or something that makes your solution change colors, and you are supposed to wait 15 minutes after mixing to ensure this happens.

- If you donâ??t mind your plants getting burned, then you donâ??t need a surfactant, or wetting agent. However it would be much better if you used one. It spreads out pools and makes a nice thin film. A pool, or even a drop of liquid can burn a plant real fast, because it acts like a magnifying glass. I highly recommend using Penetrator, also by Dutch Master. It is the most expensive, but in my opinion it is also the best. Take a look at the results of independent studies on the Dutch Master web site, then try it for yourself. I have also used Wet Betty, by Advanced Nutrients, and it cost less because it works about half as well. People have also used 1/4 or 1/2 teaspoon of liquid dish soap per gallon of water, but I donâ??t know how well that works and I would be reluctant to try it with LL.

- Try to spray the underside of the leaves as well as the tops, since the stomata (mouths) are on the bottom. Dutch Master claims that you donâ??t have to worry about this with LL, as it is designed to soak into the leaf from all directions. I try anyway.

- When applying, continue to spray a nice even coat across your canopy until it starts to run off the leaves. Make sure there are no plugged in power strips or something under the plants.

- Be careful with moisture. Moisture increases chances of mold and mildew. My hydro guy said to not foliar feed after the first week or two of the budding stage, or after some flowers start showing up. He had a bad experience, so I believe he goes a little overboard on the safety issue. The directions for Penetrator say to not foliar feed after the 4th week of flowering. I think depending on the circumstances, especially humidity and bud density, you may be able to foliar feed several weeks more than that. I did 5 weeks with no problem and I had some pretty good buds at that point. However, if a bud is growing fast and starts growing around some moisture, thatâ??s it â?? bud rot. By the way, bud rot really sucks, so pay attention and be careful.

- You can foliar feed at any stage of development, and there are many products designed to be administered only at certain times. Just be careful you follow the directions and donâ??t fry your plants with too many nutrients. The younger they are the more tender they are.

- There are many wonderful products made to apply directly to the leaves that are not necessarily classified as nutrients. Some like Revive from Advanced Nutrients, are designed to aid in the recovery from stress. One of my hydro guys raves about it. He says it will bring your plant back not only from stress, but from disaster. Also check out Reverse from Dutch master, which is designed to make hermaphrodites quit manufacturing male flowers. Iâ??ve never tried it, but many people swear this works.

- Just to be safe, the first time you foliar feed I recommend that you lower the PPM in your reservoir a little, and start with less foliar food than the directions call for. Itâ??s a lot easier to add a little more next time, than it is to try and fix fried plants. I donâ??t know for sure how much foliar feeding adds to the total PPM a plant can take in. Donâ??t come crying to me if anything bad happens, use your best judgment and take responsibility for the things you choose to do. I have never used LL and Penetrator at anything other than half strength, and that seems to be plenty. Also thatâ??s how the hydro guy that gave me the sample does it. The stuff is darn expensive, and itâ??s nice if you can make it half as expensive.

Related stuff from the other thread

I thought I ought to include some pertinent words from the first foliar feeding thread I started, so here they are in chronological order:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rhizome

I kinda think of foliar feeding as a medicinal treatment- It's something that I do as a respose to a situation, not as part of a regular nutrition regimen. What I'm putting on, and the concentration, are dictated by symptoms.

At one point, I ran a big system that had to be maintained at a pH of >7.5 ( Don't ask- there were fish involved) Macro availability was w/in tolerance, but there were absolutely no metals available. I'd run a micro supplement (used a couple differant- Greenair Mineral Matrix, Cropking's micro to 100-150ppm), a little ferrous sulphate, Proteckt, and some seaweed as a wetting agent ( also GA). ( Ca & Mg avail due to all that lime for those damn fish)

(Hit that space a couple of times w/ Cal-Nite as well, but special circumstances.)

For that we used a compresser and an auto-body sprayer. Caution- Protekt will hose on an auto sprayer.

In less surreal circumstances, I like a 1/2 gallon pump sprayer for most stuff- keep the pressure real high and the aperture real small- particle size counts. You want the finest mist you can achieve. You can get a really fine mist with a hand sprayer, but the mechanism fails damned quick. Metal tips hold up better than plastic. Wands aren't as handy as they seem.

Foliar's my preferred method for growth regulators- I really like Bushmaster and Purple Maxx as foliars- 3ml/g on the purple, more like 2 on the bushmaster.

Really, anything where there's a fine line between effective and toxic, I'll try to go foliar- you have much better dose control building a level over a couple of days , rather than pouring something into soil where it will take several days to be effective. Most toxicities will first show as leaf symptomology, but at that point the whole plant has a systemic toxicity that's gotta work it's way through. If you keep your application concentrations really low, and build tissue levels w/ repeated doses, it's easier to catch things before they go to far.

Doesn't work as well for the macros- you're just trying to move to many ions in the wrong direction. Way too easy to build toxic concentrations in leaf tissue way too fast.

Oddly enough, a little electrostatic charge will really help penetration on a foliar. Remember, there's leaf surface penetration and there's canopy penetration- the best chemistry on Earth won't help if you're missing stuff.

I like to spray from a couple feet back, to give the mist a little space to particularize ( is that even a word?)- more like a fog, less like a monsoon.

Pardon my stonedness.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by stinkyattic

I remember foliar application of a tea made of chelated iron and silica derived from a boiled horsetail-weed, applied via high-pressure spray gun, at this facility where I used to tech... the particle size is much nicer than a hand-squeeze sprayer. I'm trying to think if there's a smaller-scale equivalent for home use.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by stinkyattic

I was thinking. I wonder if a system intended for airbrushing graphics would work. Seems like it should; it's basically a scaled-down auto body sprayer. The only thing I would be concerned about was making sure that the solution does not corrode the cone in the sprayer, since it's salty and acidic. You'd want to rinse out VERY well, maybe even running some alcohol (solvent) through as the last rinse step to get all traces of water out of there and make it work for longer.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Weedhound

Wait.....you two are SERIOUSLY talking about sprayguns for your plants......omg.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Weedhound

I'm going to get to the bottom of this.....

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Weedhound

Well my hydro guy wasn't there but I'm told by the OTHER DUDE THERE it's a very hot product right now and they have been hearing about some "pretty amazing" results with it.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Opie Yutts

...this Liquid Light is unlike anything else you may have foliar fed with. It is some weird, strong, (and expensive) stuff, and I highly recommend using the best surfactant you kind find. I firmly believe that this is Penetrator by Dutch Master, which also makes the Liquid Light. From my own personal experience it covers much better and makes a nice thin film on nearly 100% of the leaf, with very little, if any pooling. Wet Betty did not do this for me; seems like she covered maybe 50-80%.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Opie Yutts

...This stuff does some weird stuff to your plants. It makes them completely stand up straight and tall and with all their fan leaves stretching up and out, just like when you see the pictures that have captions like "Here's what a happy plant looks like." You can see the plant get shocked from this sudden transformation slightly, in the leaves as a few of them twist and curl for a couple days. This is nothing to be alarmed at since they straighten out later.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rock.Steady

...as Opie said go to the dutchmaster site for more info, they have much posted, I was glued to my monitor thru 2 cups of coffee....big cups

I must now blaze

Rock.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rock.Steady

yes, we are using Penetrator. and it is STRONGLY recomended u do. It is a highly effective wetting agent, helps uniform absorbtion and u will likely burn the leaves without it as DM recomends spraying while under the lights.

the 15 inch mark is DM's minimum limit from the light to avoid burn while using LL. I did read somewhere that they recomend approx 24 inch during your spraying/drying time.

...u may wish to evaluate factors like ur humidity levels and flowr density to determine how long into flwr u want to try. always avoid a mold/budrot scenario, ur mileage may vary
IMHO i think the boost they received was more substantial in veg. However, i would not recomend using before the 2nd node. I shot some babies early and the main single leafs got all twisty and have stayed that way, to me this is proof that the LL amplified my veg-cfl's so much that i ran on the borderline of burn-damage...

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by fredfarts

Here is a study explaining the befifits of a folier feed with music just before lights on.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by fredfarts

Carlson spent many hours in the University of Minnesota library, studying plant physiology. Struck by the idea that certain sound frequencies might help a plant breathe better and absorb more nutrients, he experimented with various frequencies until, with the help of an audio engineer, he found one range that was consonant with the early morning bird chirping that helps plants open wider their stomata, or mouth-like pores. On every leaf there are thousands of such small openings. Each stoma--less that 1/1000 of inch across--allows oxygen and water to pass out of the leaf, or transpire, while other gases, notably carbon dioxide, move in to be transformed by photosynthesis into sugars. During dry conditions, the stomata close to prevent a wilting plant from drying out completely.

Photomicrographs show plant stomata opening wider to Carlson's frequencies, while a Philips 505 Scanning Electron Microscope shows substantially higher stomata density on a leaf treated with Sonic Bloom; additionally, the individual stomata are more developed and better defined.

As stomata normally imbibe the morning dew, sucking up nutrients in the form of free flowing trace elements, why not, thought Carlson, develop a special organic spray to apply to the leaves along with the sound that induces stomata to open. Even in poor soil, Carlson reasoned, plants could be well nourished with a foliar spray containing the right combination of elements. To develop such an effective nutrient solution took Carlson 15 years of trial and error, experimenting in labs throughout the country, funded by a caring "angel." Carlson needed to find not only what elements serve to make a plant flourish; he needed to find their proper balance. Just the right amount of Nitrogen, Potassium, and Phosphorus is needed, but not the overdose recommended by the chemical companies that swamp the plant to the exclusion of trace elements vital to its health. Too much of any one element can distort or even kill a plant.

To find the proper balance required endless testing with radioactive isotopes and Geiger counters to trace the elements' translocation from leaves to stems to peak to roots. Among the first natural substances used was Gibberilic acid, naturally derived from rice roots, needed by every living plant. Eventually Carlson included sixty-four trace elements derived from natural plant products and from seaweed; he also added chelated amino-acids and growth stimulants, altering the surface tension of the water base to make it more easily absorbed.

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Links for some foliar feeding products

Dutch Master Flash Site (broadband)
Dutch Master html Site (dial-Up)
Liquid Light Foliar Light Maximizer
Penetrator Foliar Fertilizer Delivery Agent
Reverse
Gold Nutrient and Liquid Light usage sheet (605KB pdf)
Gold Nutrient and Liquid Light training sheet (5.0MB pdf)
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Advanced Nutrients
Wet Betty Plant Penetrator
Revive
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Spray-N-Grow Agricultural
Spray-N-Grow Micronutrient Complex

Amen

OK, well there it is. I hope you find it interesting. I would like to encourage anyone to add or criticize, but please letâ??s try to keep it on the topic of foliar feeding or Liquid Light. Iâ??m not going to add links pertaining to foliar feeding other than the few above, but I highly recommend just running that through your favorite search engine if you feel like you might want to foliar feed at some point. Iâ??m not going back to check all the links. Please let me know if any donâ??t work, or just supply the right one.

Hope you like. Took some time.

Pictures:

Sticky! Sticky! Beautiful work. :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

That's pretty intense Opie! All the work you dedicated to this, I'll second the recommendation for a sticky. Awesome job... I'd give you a rep if I could. :thumbsup:

I'm not a seasoned grower but this stuff sounds fantastic. I think I may try to see if I can get a free sample and use it on one of my plants for comparison to a plant being fed the traditional way.

thanks for the post, I third the sticky! :thumbsup:

damn. that post is full of pertinent info.
ive been doin my thing for a while and trying to maximize production.
i discover the FIM method just like most with a "fuck i missed", and discovered the lst method with some overzealous plants that eventually flopped sideways.
but this is by far the best method yet ive heard about to get rapid nutrient infusion.

good research.
sticky it is.

c.cat

Everyone,
thanks for the compliments.

chinacat,
Welcome to the forum. Glad I can help, and glad to have you along.

After reading your article yesterday, I went to the local shop here and chatted the owner up. I asked him about the product and he said it definitely did make a noticeable difference. I don't have much of a use for a vegetative enhancer with the current setup, but future needs may change.

He gave me the same free samples you have and I plan on using them on a younger AK-99 plant growing. I'll try to get some before and after pics too. 60ml each per liter, so 480ml total per gallon... that's a hell of a solution :)

You must spread some reputation around before giving it to Opie Yutts again.

Great contribution. Thank you.

this is amazing, what a great read, this should be sticky! Thanks Opie,

Peace,
Denial

Thanks for the applause people. I am humbled. You're all very welcome. It was kinda fun.

I was thinking about trying to illustrate photographically what happens when you apply LL. I don't know about those of you who have tried it so far, but I was truly amazed, and I'm kicking myself for not taking pictures. Lately it takes a lot to amaze me and my skeptical attitude. I would like to suggest that it would be great to put some before and after pictures in here. To those who have yet to try it, when you do please take some before and after photos and post them here. Any photographic evidence of success, or failure for that matter, regarding foliar feeding. That would be cool... thanks.

Time lapse? mmm, yeah.

"In sugar beet, which has a large leaf area, foliar sprays with three per- cent N, P, K increased the fresh weight of roots and sugar yield by 31 and 40 per cent, respectively."

So I guess what you're saying is, it might be a good idea, at least for people who foliar feed, to try and grow varieties that are known for larger leaf area. More mouths to feed, I know but it shouldn't be that much more expensive. I'm thinking, would a leaf twice the size of another bring in twice as much nutrients when fed? If so, this would have to be good, right?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gainesvillegreen

... I plan on using them on a younger AK-99 plant growing. I'll try to get some before and after pics too.

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Please by all means. And thank you for the ingredients photos.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Opie Yutts

Please by all means. And thank you for the ingredients photos.

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I most definitely will. I had planned on doing this yesterday but ended up butchering the plant for clones. I'll wait until next weekend for it to recover and will do a time-lapse session with pictures every hour.

Very cool. Looking forward to it.

Opie
i have a pic of the reaction when it freaked me out.
these leaves were horizontal before application.:jawdropper:

Makes em look nice n healthy.

LL = Turgid

i went to the "local" (see: 2 hours away) shop last week and asked the guru what he could tell me about LL.
he proceeded to inform me that the secret lies not in the LL it self, but in the PENETRATOR.
foliar feeding is good for the plant with any nutirent, alot of the manufacturers recommend it. and im sure that DM has designed the LL to work very well with teh penetrator, but think about the possibilities here.............. ;)

he also hooked it up with a product that supposed to help the roots absorb more nutes or something called..........
soil ecolizer em2
its made by mother earth organics. i figure ill give it a shot...:pimp:

c.cat

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gainesvillegreen

...I'll wait until next weekend for it to recover and will do a time-lapse session with pictures every hour.

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Arms crossed, tapping my foot, still waiting patiently.

further case study results.

seems LL and CFL's at close proximity are a bad combo in veg.

very bad reaction a couple weeks ago.

i would only recommend it in flwr and with lights moved further away than normal.

these are some of my findings.

your mileage may vary;)

Im going to pick up a bottle of this this and apply tonight as soon as I turn on the lights.

If you want to see the results tune in :)

http://boards.cannabis.com/grow-log/...ml#post1856728

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rock.Steady

further case study results.

seems LL and CFL's at close proximity are a bad combo in veg.

very bad reaction a couple weeks ago.

i would only recommend it in flwr and with lights moved further away than normal.

these are some of my findings.

your mileage may vary;)

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Huh? No way. Really? Could you please elaborate? You are supposed to leave the lights close to the plants so that LL can react with the light. Moving the lights farther away will defeat the whole purpose of using LL. How close were the lights to the plants? Did you use it at full strength (I've always recommended half)? How big/hot are the lights? Shouldn't be a problem with CFL. Are you absolutely positive that it wasn't a heat issue, or something else like PH perhaps?

Opie,
I am equally confused and actually rather upset.
(we've been thu this b4, u'll rememmber)

i used at approx 60% strength.

the CFLs were within 2-3 inches as usual.
they are not hot.

I am convinced it must have to do with the light spectrum and "quality" of spectrum produced via CFL.

Why am i convinced? because all of u using it in veg are using MH or some other hi output lamps without these issues occurring.
Also, when I use it in flower (HPS) i do NOT have these reactions.

the leaves got bleached some, kinda discolored and the tips curled/shrivled.
it happened to the soil and hydro's i had in veg locker,

matter of fact, it affected the hydro plants so much, that i will be chopping both down to clone out and hopefully save the strains by cloning out.

until u show me one other grower using LL with CFL's without problems, i remain convinced its CFL related.

its ok, i just know for sure i will only use LL in the 1st 4 wks of flower.
thats actually ok with me, and now i know the limitations of LL for my applications.

just wanted to share real experience data.;)

That's pretty weird, and yes I remember talking about it before. I've never tried it under fluorescent, but I plan to take some cuttings soon and then I will see what happens when I use it on one of my moms under fluorescent light.

Actually Sal my soil ww has been under flouros right up until we turned her AND has had several applications of LL with never a single problem (pss....don't know about yours Rock buy my cfl's are about 4 inches away from the plant.) NEVER a problem.

BUT ...have DEFINITELY had problems with mh lighting and burning. Rock....I'm booting your theory to the curb.

So I was ASSUMING I was going half strength with my LL but I wasnt. Yes I was halfing the dose of LL I added...but COMPLETLEY forgot about that I was adding it to half the amount of water as well.....equaling full strength.

I just FINALLY figured this out yesterday.

Pathetic. :wtf:

Aint it grand to be stoned? At the very least it makes life more of a challenge. Thank you for sharing things other than your success stories.

this was a great thread i searched for foliar feeding and this came up... but all the general info pertaining to it i already knew... i have a question that i cant seem to see anything about...

my question if you can call it that is the effects of the feed being left behind on the plant??? obviously the plant doesnt absorb all of it, so some is left behind on the leaves. my problem is if i made a guano tea and used that to feed would i be smoking bat shit??? hahah especially if it was used in the flowering stage... does anyone have any info about the effects of smoking foliar feed buds and or any info about what may be left behind??? once i get started with things i want to foliar feed but i also dont want to ne smoking nutes and bat crap hahah

im guessing the best thing (for me) is to use it during the veg stage and then really wet the leaves down with plain water before they start budding

I know for LL you don't go past week 4 of flower. Still pretty new to this but the main thing to worry about as far as I can tell with foliar feeding in flower is mold. Maybe before you hit to far into flower spray them really well with plain water if you are really worried about it. I just make sure to have my fans going on the plant to dry them out quick. Mold is far wosre to smoke than a very small amount of bat shit. But a last I am a noob in the grow world.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GreenANaCI

im guessing the best thing (for me) is to use it during the veg stage and then really wet the leaves down with plain water before they start budding

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I'd say that's a fair assumption. I would not feed my buds with anything crap related, at least once they started showing well. That's probably within 2 weeks of switching the lighting schedule. During the veg stage anything goes. You don't want to foliar feed at all if you have good buddage or high humidity with so-so buddage, or you'll risk mold and rot.

I don't think you would need to wash down your leaves with water, unless you plan on consuming them for some reason. If you stop foliar feeding when buds form, the buds won't have any crap-like substances on them.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by apoc04

I know for LL you don't go past week 4 of flower. Still pretty new to this but the main thing to worry about as far as I can tell with foliar feeding in flower is mold. Maybe before you hit to far into flower spray them really well with plain water if you are really worried about it. I just make sure to have my fans going on the plant to dry them out quick. Mold is far wosre to smoke than a very small amount of bat shit. But a last I am a noob in the grow world.

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Agreed, mostly. I don't understand what good spraying them with water will do, unless you're trying to increase humidity, which will increase chances of bud rot. I've foliar fed as late as week 5 of flowering, but I have 30% humidity and good ventilation.

I tried a little foliar feeding once, and I used plain water to rinse off the leaves later after the leaves had absorbed the nutes and dried. I was using some liquid chemical fertilizer, the kind that leaves behind all that salty junk... so keeping the leaves clean and not allowing it to acumulate was an important thing for me to do. Doing it ensures that there's no residue or salts left behind to inhibit transpiration or light absorbtion, and possibly burn the leaves if too much builds up over time.

Of course, using that extra water to rinse off the plants will mean you gotta keep your eye on the humidity level. Also after wetting them down try to add extra airflow until they've completely dried.... I only had one big fan so I would just increase it's speed to do it. And I personally wouldn't use any kind of foliar feeding once buds have really started to develop, like around 2 weeks into 12/12.

ya bud rot and humidity is not my problem smoking things that you shouldnt be is... if and when i get my closet grow up and running (have to find a job first to get the money to do so just recently lost mine) humidity would not be a problem infact it may help some... where i live we have very very low humidity almost all year and the way the space would be set up the air is going to be constantly circulated in and out of the space at a fairly high rate (atleast for the size of the area) so bud rot and humidity are not issues its just the healthiness factor for me

which im assuming using foliar feed only during veg and right at the end of veg "wash" the leaves before inducing flowering will be the best practice for me

If you use a surfactant, especially a good one like Penetrator, there should be no salts left on the leaves. Otherwise I may consider washing them as well. I don't plan on smoking leaves since they don't get you high, but you never know if one will find its' way into the bowl.

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Posted: 2007-09-05 16:09:13

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more: Dutch Master News

Opie
Thank You for this fantastic thread!! I have been useing foliar feeding for close to 15 years for treating a variety of plant problems on a variety of plants, all over the world. For MJ plants indoors I have experimented with many different products. Liquid lights, B'cuzz, fish emulsion, epsom salts, Chi, and to many peoples surprise...Kool Bloom, in the beginning of flower of course. I like to experiment with products. I tried the liquid lights on your recommendation, and all I can say is WOW! You were right! I was impressed. The B'cuzz makes things beautiful but not to the extent of LL! This thread is great, but we must remember to remind everyone to have ample ventelation when using Foliar Feedings. Thanks again and if this isn't a STICKY I quit. Peace,
Plant

Thanks for the kind words. Foliar feeding for 15 years, wow. Sounds like your experience would hit the spot in a thread like this.

I've been thinking of making a little portable fog unit for foliar feeding. One day, after the deck, and the shed, and the entry bench, laundry sink, french drain, and of course grow closet remodel. Or maybe somewhere during all that.

Thanks for the info. I had already purchased DM Folitech and Penetrator while I will be using DM Advanced for my res solution. I used a light (1/4 strength) solution this am on my seedlings (3 F Dutchman Dame Blanche, 2 F Dutchman G Force seeds, all fem, and 3 G13 Labs Ice seeds).
You are right about the whole Dutch Master line. Lots of studies to back it up! The one in BC that blew away Wet Betty and the others sold me!
I printed out my nute schedule for my Advanced Grow and Flower usage. What a great feature!
I was going to order Liquid Light tomorrow, but they said not to use the Liquid Light if you are using the Folitech. Maybe next round I will use LL instead of Folitech as an experiment and see if the yield is any different. Well thanks again for your input Opie! EyelykPot1

You're welcome Eyelyk.

I also found this interesting:

The Dutch Master R&D team have been hard at work designing and perfecting the upgrades to take regular Penetrator to GOLD status. Recently the R&D team tested out a radical experimental technology that not only allows everything you spray on your plants to get inside but now specifically targets and delivers foliar applied ingredients directly to the specialized cells that need them...

anyone else used this stuff on his reccomendation? what did you come up with as results?

i'm just starting up a new cycle and am considering trying this shit out. i'm not really too into magic juices with gardening, i'm fairly straight forward with my nute feeding...but i wouldnt mind experimenting a bit

i use botanicare for my regular nutes... was thinkin of cutting back the PPM by 15% or so when trying the liquid light out