LED Grow: 1st grow, 56W max, Northern Lights

Ok, this is my first ever serious grow, meaning I actually know what I'm doing. As well, I have a green thumb so it isn't my first plant grown.
It will be under LED lights, going up to a maximum of 64W using "china panels" according to stealth (you'll see them in the pics).

For nutes, I'm using Botanicare's Bloom Pro, Liquid Karma and Gro Pro. Pre-mixed nutes:
http://www.snapdrive.net/files/47078.../pre_nutes.JPG
L>R:bloom, gro, and a tiny bottle for foliar spraying the seedling
all of them also have liquid karma mixed in the water

I started off with cactus soil, and I buried the seed (lol) Sunday, February 3rd. Came out of the ground on February 4th.

I'm gonna use 2 boxes, the one I used to germinate was this one:
http://www.snapdrive.net/files/47078...ht%20setup.JPG
and i transferred it to this box as soon as i saw the cotyledons turn green (height=2.333_ ft):
http://www.snapdrive.net/files/47078...366_020508.JPG

this is before the camera adjusted the lighting, it's not as magenta as the procyon though :S
http://www.snapdrive.net/files/47078...370_020508.JPG

this is after camer adjustment and ya, it just looks blue:
http://www.snapdrive.net/files/47078...371_020508.JPG

February 6th:
http://www.snapdrive.net/files/470781/Grow/day%201.JPG

56W meaning 4x13.somethingW panels rounded up to 14W. I'm using 3 right now but I will
be using all of them in later vegging. btw, i got these for a good price at ebay, 4 for like $131CAD.

ok, in reference to tuesday being day 1, now it's friday so it's day 3 and this is what it looks
like:
http://www.snapdrive.net/files/47078...380_020808.JPG

forgot to mention that i transferred the entire thing to a 14oz white
beer cup and it's in coir now, and i've been foliar feeding it with
the zinfandel bottle's contents (see first post)

Cool, I'm definitely watching this thread.

Anyways, you might wanna install some type of ventilation to your cabinet, I don't think the stale air is good for your little babies...

already got that on my checklist, i just need money to buy a fan and transformer
you're right though, i already have the soil well below the cup edge.
but i've been opening it up to check on the vin+bs mix (for co2 just in case)

VERY cool but pre-mixing nutes is just begging for trouble. The blue LED light is crazygonuts, now I want them for my living room lol!

no nooo, the blue lights give me a MASSIVE headache when i get them in my eyes for too long :(
it's so eerie though because when i get the leaking of the light on white objects it has a
similar glow to a black light's... it's really strange

oh, and why shouldn't i pre-mix nutes?

I posted on the other thread that you put up pics of that vintage of nutes lol but the chemical components can interact in undesirable ways. Theya re intended to be mixed immediately prior to use.

oh great. i'll have to keep a close watch when i get to using them and act accordingly :(

OK, I have a problem now... My first set of leaves is fine but it seems to be drooping, not wilting, drooping.

I think it's either:

1) the baking soda and vinegar mix is setting off fumes that the plant doesn't like
2) the effect is common with LED lights
3) i may have over foliar fed

so far i've taken out the co2 mix but it's only been 15 minutes

this is kind of what is happening
http://www.hg420.com/gallery/data/500/7189100_0069.JPG
that isn't my plant obviously but it's got the same thing my leaves are doing
sans discoloration on tips

Maspino,

I think you are using nutes way to early in growth IMO. I don't start mine until they come out of the seedling stage or first set of 5 finger leaves. There are plenty of nutes in the soil for seedlings.

Do you have any more seeds? I would be ready for a back up plan because you are basicaly doing an experiment and you will want your seedlings as healthy as possiable. I don't think you have a light problem, just a nute and watering issue going on right now that may affect somthing down the road, just my opinion.

thanks so much for helping :)
so far i've stopped the foliar feed and just misted water on it to wash out the shit
i have 1 more seed but it's cool if it turns out male, i need pollen for my peruvian house bees anyway

Hey dude your grow box is preety cool man.. You could add a few pc fans in to ur box, it will help.. I think your feedin ur babies nutes a bit too early, you mite want to wait a week or 2..

Ill defo be watching this.. Good luck:thumbsup:

thanks for the input smokey :)

ok, so i was really kidding about the house bees. here is the pic of my plant and what it's doing,
unfortunately my camera won't focus properly. i don't know why though.
http://www.snapdrive.net/files/470781/Grow/S7300390.JPG
DAY 4

so the droop is gone. i think it's grown bigger too, the leaves are a bit softer than they were,
like normal plant leaves.

http://www.snapdrive.net/files/47078...400_021008.JPG
DAY 5

that's FlashCat right behind there

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by smok3y

Hey dude your grow box is preety cool man.. You could add a few pc fans in to ur box, it will help.. I think your feedin ur babies nutes a bit too early, you mite want to wait a week or 2..

Ill defo be watching this.. Good luck:thumbsup:

---

Hey, I started watching your grow in Sns's thread, and your LED's are way better priced then his. I've been following the actions on ebay my self. (so i'll be tuned in for the long-hall +/-)


How do you power the PC fans on a grow bow setup, they all have that power supply hook up? :wtf:

oh ya, for sure, he has the procyons lol, mine were like 1/6 the price of his [or if i'm not mistaken, theirs, right?]
but just type in "led grow" and then set listings to "ending soonest" and the red time markers
will be your indicator
and it's sold by ledwholesalers.com

well, since im gonna be using all 4 of my lights, im gonna take advantage of the hole on top
and im gonna get a square flap of white foamboard as well and stick a hole in the middle
so i can attack a pc fan wired to a 12v transformer
i'm gonna radio shack the whole thing

PS>ledwholesalers has amazing shipping, i had my lights within a week and a half

yeah man, too early for nutes, and be careful with watering. since your using LEDs, the plants sweat WAY less, and the soil temp doesnt rise much. the drooping is prob just over watering. happened once with mine, but soon as you see how much water they like, they are fine. the plants will use prob half the water as they normally do.
and good luck with the china panels. told ya we got some before the procyon, and they were crappy. we got them off ebay, from the same people. just trying to help man.

whiskeytango

thanks guys, i actually need all the help i can get because it's been a week so far and
my plant is hella small! i came home today expecting more but i guess my plant must be
rootbound. et voila:

http://www.snapdrive.net/files/47078...415_021308.JPG
DAY 8

sorry about the shitty pics, my photoshop isn't working AT ALL and my camera is from air miles.

PS> to stealth: thanks for checking on my grow, im really excited
about your results and if you harvest some good buds im gonna buy
a procyon too

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by maspino1

oh ya, for sure, he has the procyons lol, mine were like 1/6 the price of his [or if i'm not mistaken, theirs, right?]

---

so hows that working for ya?....lol..live and learn, and you get what you pay for....

grr now i have to spend more money lol
it's cool though, im just gonna see how far these panels will actually take me

Please do finish what you can! One of the main reasons we started our thread was to show everyone (including us) what these products can do on their own. They're being sold as grow lights so it would be a good thing to know how they grow, without changing mid grow because of results or advise by others. thats how we will know.

Doughboy:smokin:

sweet, it's great to hear encouragement like that
and yes, i am going to go all the way to the finish line and make use of what i paid for lol
but i think after led's, depending on results from yours and my log, im gonna switch to t5ho
because it just seems more for the money and t5 lights give off a wider spectrum based
on their spectra anyway
not to mention people keep asking what that purple light in my room is lol

PS>wider spectrum based on their spectra in my own scientific world lol
is like all frequencies varying in amounts based on bulb temperature

and yes, there are 2 of us
whiskeytango and doughboy

umm.. update?
my third set of leaves are growing in already but they've grown underneath my second
set of leaves
out of all the cannabis seedlings i've seen this hasn't happened, it's so fucked
i would take a pic if my camera wasn't so 2005

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SnSstealth

Please do finish what you can! One of the main reasons we started our thread was to show everyone (including us) what these products can do on their own. They're being sold as grow lights so it would be a good thing to know how they grow, without changing mid grow because of results or advise by others. thats how we will know.

Doughboy:smokin:

---

word!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by maspino1

umm.. update?
my third set of leaves are growing in already but they've grown underneath my second
set of leaves
out of all the cannabis seedlings i've seen this hasn't happened, it's so fucked
i would take a pic if my camera wasn't so 2005

---

thats fucked up dude, you have to take a picture :) sounds interesting, try and think what you might have done to get that to happen, you might be the FIM of the LED'ers :-)

teeeeeeheee,

Peace,
Denial

wait, what's a FIM?

i'll take a pic as soon as the third set is big enough cuz my camera
is a piece of digested excrement

we unfortunately ARE the test subjects for this matter maspino, you too now that your in it... so we gotta figure alot of this shit out...dont know if you saw our mutant, but i think it might be something with the LEDs...ours keeps putting out 3 leaves instead of 2 at each node....hope that means more bud production too:thumbsup:
if that plant is still living, i would keep it for now man...mutants can make DANK!!!!
:smokebong:
whiskeytango

yup, my plant is definitely growing 3 leaves :O lol
i can't show you though because, im sure everyone knows by now, my camera isn't that great :(

I hate to be the bearer of bad news but, those "grow lights" aren't actually grow lights. I have seen those before when I first started doing my LED research and delved a little deeper into them. First of all the amount of lumens put out by a single light is next to nothing when talking about growing plants. Second, those LEDs aren't even close to te wavelengths needed for optimal growth. When I say aren't even close I mean someone just took some blue LEDs without looking at the wavelength and so red LEDs and wired them to a board. I don't have all the numbers at hand anymore, the Procyon 100 is about the best LED grow light you can buy. It comes as close to the spectrum needed for plant growth as you can get but even it is still off a bit. Growing properly with LEDs is going to ream you out the ass when it comes to cash. The proper LEDs needed are some of the MOST expensive on the market. I have seen the argument that LEDs are way more energy efficient than HPS/MH/T5. That efficiency drops dramatically if you don't have the correct spectrum and also drops dramatically once you achieve the correct spectrum. This is b/c the LEDs that are needed are no where near as efficient as the white high power 1-5 watt LEDs that put out 100 lm/watt. You would be lucky to achieve 70-90 lm/watt with the correct LEDs.
Simply put, LEDs are not where it is at right now. Give it a few years and it may be there. China recently manufactured a 2 inch x 2 inch 200 watt diode that boasts and INCREDIBLE 200,000 lumens. Unfortunatley EACH of these diodes cost over $1,000,000, thats right 1 MILLION US DOLLARS, now this includes the cost of research and development of these diodes. The cost to create them is negligible BUT you won't be able to purchase them cheap b/c of the amount of money that went into designing them. To top it off these diodes ran for only a short amount of time (no longer than 24 hours each) before they burnt out.
I am not discouraging experimentation with LEDs, just trying to educate those who really want to start growing with them. You cannot be cost efficient and still grow with LEDs as they are now.

Looking for a good alternative to LEDs that don't put out much heat and are still reasonably efficient, go with T5's. You can purchase a 432 watt system that emits 40k lumens for 200-300 US dollars. The great thing about T5's, you can put them 2-5 INCHES away from your plants and as we all know, lumens degrade at a distance square to your light right? Well put you light that close to your plants and you will be using nearly ALL 40k lumens which is more than enough for two plants. Also, T5's have the best spectrum for growing plants. 2700k and 6500k almost dead on hit the two peaks of cannabis plants which are roughly 425 nm and 660 nm (this is the combined photosynthesis of all the pigments). Also T5's unlike MH and HPS run cool. I ran a CFL setup for my last grow and they ran so cool I could put my cheek to them. Try that with an HPS/MH.

ya i was really skeptical about the led's and from what i've seen so far they're really not that great
and stealth already told me these panels aren't any use at all but since i've jumped on the led
bandwagon i might as well finish it to the end
besides, it's great to look forward to after a 12 hour shift
and definitely going with t5 ho next time, i already found some on yahoo

eh..........i will agree with you to an extent paht head...dont know if you have seen our plants...but they are growing pretty bad ass....the procyons were hella expensive, give ya that......but our whole room is getting almost 5k lumens at the soil level...and the Nm are almost dead on....while they do need some work...i have a feeling our 300w system will do close to avg for the 20 plants we have...IMHO
:smokebong:
whiskeytango

Ok so pic one is your plant out how many weeks?
Pic two is my first plant from bagseed (turned out to be male) at 3 weeks (consider it to be 20 days) from when I put the seed in the paper towel. Using 260 watts of cfls.
Just as something to compare. I am not sure what week you are in so a lil feedback would be appreciated.

The procyon using 635nm and 470nm leds. As I stated you need 425nm and 660nm for optimal growth. You may be getting 5,000 lumens at the soil level but your plant can only use so much of those lumens. 635nm peaks at 68% where as 660nm peaks at 95%. 470nm at 78% 425nm at 100% usage. This means you get an average of 97.5% lumen usage with 425,660nm leds and a much lower 73% average lumen usage with the Procyon. These numbers will vary (in fact the average should decline) since the Procyon has a larger number of red leds than blue. Which brings me to another issue. A near equal number of leds would be the best for a single LED grow light. A larger number of red LED like the procyon has should be used for flowering and in that aspect I think you will see some benefits from your LED light. I predict average sized buds with high resin counts, partially due to the stress caused from an improper spectrum. You will most likely see a lot of stretching during veg though.

And again I applaud you two for taking the innitiative to propagate with LEDs.

Just my :twocents:

Now I must be getting back to my bowl covered in kief :jointsmile:

ill agree with ya in that we are still off on ideal...we will be supplementing lights next grow depending on the outcome...since sales are not our primary goal...more potent @ less yeild is quite key for me...everything i have read, they all share the fact that resin output does increase with these and the UFO... adding some other colors to our grow next time, i think will be a serious deal...if we are this close to good now.........mmmm
and as for the comparison....they are pretty close in age....jack herer tends to be a slow starter, and for some reason, we got WAY more lateral growth than vert growth, so we raised the lights back up to 18in....this first run is ALL experiment....so next time we can truely see LEDs potential.....who knows, marsipno may help us in getting info on on these...thanks for your imput paht...feel free to stop in my thread sometime
marspino....dont give up on the LEDs man!!!! if making your own panels seems better for ya, talk to me, physicsnole and opie yutts...those 2 guys know ALOT of the scientific aspect of LEDs as well.......
:smokebong:
whiskeytango

wow, ya i have been noticed an increase in internode length, just recently, it's stretching
for no reason :S
thanks for all the encouragement stealth, don't worry i'll stick it out with you guys since
i'm all up for results as well
and i think after this grow if results are insatisfactory then im gonna go with t5 like paht hed
mentioned

UPDATE
http://www.snapdrive.net/files/47078...432_021508.JPG
this is how the LEDs are set up inside the box now, at the full 56W and hopefully
the angled positions of the upper panels blends into both frequencies hitting the plants'
leaves and increasing growth sans stretch

plant pic updates on wednesday night

much better....fingers crossed for ya!!!!
:smokebong:
whiskeytango

i forgot to ask:
my box isn't a sealed off container. the seams of the walls are held together with nails
top, middle and bottom and is sealed with breathable fabric medical tape and the
panels create like a few mm of space on each side so would a fan still be necessary?
even as well with the yeast and sugar concoction, it seeps out of the box and gives me
headaches.
let me hear your tips and suggestions, thanks

yeah man, regardless of temp, you need circulating air around the girls at all times...IMO
:somkebong:
whiskeytango

ok, so a tiny update:

my cotyledons are dying now so that must mean the plant is on its way
it's either that or nute burn but the latter seems unlikely since my other leaves are doing
fine
i'll post a pic tonight if i can, my camera's being a prima cameradonna for no fucking reason