Why I have a real problem trusting the US goverment.

US may have given injured British forces infected blood transfusions - Times Online

I find it strange that the only soldiers that weren't given the unscreened blood were Americans ?
I would've thought that any soldier from any country fighting alongside the Americans would be afforded the same treatment as thier US counterparts, this does not seem to have been the case .
Who in thier right minds sends blood for transfusions without first testing it to make sure there is no danger to the innocent recipient?

Well... its only one more absurd thing done by the americans... it really dont surprises me anymore... anyway it serves well to the brits... they couldve stayed at home, peacefully, but prefered to help u.s. making war... so it serves them well.

Were you really surprised?

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Originally Posted by r0k

Were you really surprised?

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Not realy , it just shows the disregard the US gov has for it's so called allies , I'm just amazed that there are people who trust a single thing the US gov does or says.

the older i get, and the more i look around, the less i want to live in this country. land of the free enforced by guns, in a country that has such a sepiriority complex that it has spread its will and demecrocy to countries that dont want or need it.

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Originally Posted by psychocat

Not realy , it just shows the disregard the US gov has for it's so called allies , I'm just amazed that there are people who trust a single thing the US gov does or says.

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Not only for its allies, but it's own residents :thumbsup:

US Government deception about GMO's exposed

Yet another reason why I will never trust what the US tells us. :wtf:

Psychocat:

I can totally understand why you're frustrated, but in defense of the U.S., I see it in a little different light.

I'm sure that while those wounded British soldiers are upset about the status of the blood transfusions, they're still happy to be alive right now. Especially after suffering severe enough trauma to need to receive emergency blood transfusions while still in-country. But even here in the States, there always seems to be a short supply of blood...or at least, that's what the ARC (Red Cross) is telling us.

I despise having to give blood to doctors who are just needing a vial or two, much less having to give it to some burly dude at the ARC who's wanting an entire pint of it. Then being rewarded with a juice box and a stale cookie. Not my thing. But my wife loves it, and donates every chance she gets. I hope, for the soldiers sake, that some of them got my wife's blood and will not have to worry about dangerous diseases.

...they'll just have to worry about rogue hormones periodically seizing control of their minds and turning them into raving, maniacal balls of emotion. This is only temporary, though - and severity can be controlled with prescribed medication, and/or weed. :thumbsup:

And as for the FDA, they're not as efficient at regulating products as many countries may think. Even here in the U.S., there are a lot of unevaluated products on the market that even consumers are unaware of. Fact is, there's a hell of a lot more manpower and money that would need to be put forth in order to maintain these safety regulations, but the powers-that-be have other things in mind for all that money. (All this while America quietly slips into another recession.) The majority of us are hoping that by the end of this year, big changes will have started happening in our government. For the most part, the citizens here are not idiots and we know that our government and country is far from perfect. If you're going to be pissed, try to focus most of it on the administration that's about to become obsolete, though. Hopefully, for our sake and yours, you'll see changes for the better beginning in November '08...then subsequently thereafter.

Be good, my friend.

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Originally Posted by Coelho

anyway it serves well to the brits... they couldve stayed at home, peacefully, but prefered to help u.s. making war... so it serves them well.

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yea because it was the soldiers' choice, right?


serves them good and proper :rambohead:

Firstly I will adress Mr Clandestine

In essence I agree with what you are saying and also that your goverment is not realy representive of your country.
I also agree that given the situation (war is a messy business) any help is better than no help
However
In the UK there are a pool of donors who have all been checked so that in an emrgency situation we can call upon them to donate what is known to be safe blood and given the population of the states I would've expected the military to implement the same type of thing as the UK has.
I am astounded that the US military would allow this sort of thing to happen to thier allies given that (to my knowledge) they made sure the blood given to US troops WAS checked.

40 oz

You are dead right in your observation that Brit troops (or any troops for that matter) go where they are told to go and do not have a choice. Saying to your commanding officer "Sorry sir but I realy don't want to go to Afghanistan" doesn't realy work. Once you sign up you go where you are told no questions asked and you can't think like a civvy who can just walk out of a job they don't like. Try walking out of the British army and they send big hairy arsed MP's (with weapons) after you and then you get courtmatialed for desertion.

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Originally Posted by psychocat

I am astounded that the US military would allow this sort of thing to happen to thier allies given that (to my knowledge) they made sure the blood given to US troops WAS checked.

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I didn't read that US servicemen received pre-screened blood. If that has been the case, it's unthinkable. But do we know for sure that only soldiers and citizens from the UK received unchecked blood? Are UK and US hospital tents and temporary stations cordoned off according to where the soldier is from? I honestly have no clue.

Given the size of the population here, you're right - there should be a better system in place to gather contaminate-free blood in the event of a serious emergency and ensuing shortage. As much as I hate to admit it, I'm pretty stingy with my blood. I practically live off of coffee and caffeinated beverages, and without much water, your blood thickens. It takes forever to pump out a pint, and honestly, I can think of a few other things I'd rather do with my time. Luckily, some people love it and do it frequently. I'll just have to try and "make a difference" another way, I suppose...

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You are dead right in your observation that Brit troops (or any troops for that matter) go where they are told to go and do not have a choice. Saying to your commanding officer "Sorry sir but I realy don't want to go to Afghanistan" doesn't realy work. Once you sign up you go where you are told no questions asked and you can't think like a civvy who can just walk out of a job they don't like. Try walking out of the British army and they send big hairy arsed MP's (with weapons) after you and then you get courtmatialed for desertion.

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here in the states you can. they call these people concientious objecters. i call them pussies. when i was in we actually had some girl from my post say that she shouldnt have to go because her recruiter didnt tell her she may have to go to war. umm your in the army what do a think they do. but if you say its against your beleifs well you dont go.

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Originally Posted by 40oz

yea because it was the soldiers' choice, right?


serves them good and proper :rambohead:

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40Oz im sorry if my response sounded rude... i understand that after someone is a soldier he has not choice anymore about to go or not to go to any war he were ordered to.
BUT i believe that anyone who wishes to be a soldier is aware that soldiers were meant to go to war (i dont think british soldiers are fooled into entering army by merciless recruters as happens in u.s.).
And thats why i think if anybody chooses such way of living, they must assume responsability for everything that can happen because of theirs choice. War is about killing people. If one kills, eventually one may be killed also.

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Originally Posted by Coelho

And thats why i think if anybody chooses such way of living, they must assume responsability for everything that can happen because of theirs choice. War is about killing people. If one kills, eventually one may be killed also.

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The point is they are not at risk of being killed in action as they have been removed from the theater of operations because they have been wounded. They are in danger of being killed by the medics who administer supposedly life saving blood transfusions using possibly contaminated blood because the blood has not been screened.
As ex military it is bad enough being in a war without having to worry that the very people responsible for your well being after you have done your duty have so little regard as to allow unscreened blood to be used.

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Originally Posted by psychocat

The point is they are not at risk of being killed in action as they have been removed from the theater of operations because they have been wounded. They are in danger of being killed by the medics who administer supposedly life saving blood transfusions using possibly contaminated blood because the blood has not been screened.
As ex military it is bad enough being in a war without having to worry that the very people responsible for your well being after you have done your duty have so little regard as to allow unscreened blood to be used.

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I understand you... and for me it seems the greatest irony of it all... they escaped death during the combats... and yet werent left unscathed by it. Death has many ways to find us... and not only when we are expecting it...

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The 18 military and six civilians were informed last month, although one of the soldiers was only traced this week after he had returned from a holiday in France. A defence official said ministers had decided against sending the French gendarmerie to his holiday location to tell him the bad news, believing it would be unfair to ruin his holiday.

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How considerate for the lovers he may or may not have been romancing. Yikes.

Speaking of not trusting the US government, here's something I thought fit the subject

Give em hell Psycho!

Geez if they'll do this to our allies it really makes you wonder what they are doing to us...

watch the movie "loose change".
That's what they're doing to you.

Being a soldier is NOT all about killing. It is about protecting YOUR sovereignty. They do what the government tells them. The same government that YOU voted in to place. They join with the understanding that IF they are injured they will be given the best of care!

This was not the best of care.

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Originally Posted by FreshNugz

watch the movie "loose change".
That's what they're doing to you.

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No offense, but that movie was pure one-sided garbage. For someone to even think that 9/11 was a conspiracy perpetrated by an oil/money hungry government is pretty absurd. I don't like Bush, and never voted for him, but to even assume that he'd even be intelligent enough to pull off such a conspiracy is really bordering on insanity. If you want REAL proof, with REAL facts, from REAL sources about what happened on 9/11/01... check this site out: Debunking 9/11 Conspiracy Theories & Myths

If that one isn't enough, here's another site for you to scratch your head over: 9/11 Myths

(Did you note how their facts were actually supported by verifiable documentation? Something most conspiracy theorists NEVER give you...)

I understand that many people may not be feeling patriotic with the circumstances surrounding our nation, and I'm not asking anyone to condone the actions/wars of the Bush administration. But I do ask that Americans show some sense of patriotism and get their facts straight before attempting to spread the word about ignorant/misinformed propaganda films like 'Loose Change'. At least be supportive of the troops, who are only where the are because they've sworn an oath to be there. If people are so worried about the way things are going, then maybe consider being proactive for a change. Encourage others to vote... it's a very effective way of letting your voice be heard. Write to governmental officials, don't forget to be patient, and they may just happen to write you back. (It's happened several times to me.) Support your community by donating time or money to local services and charities. Find a way to make a difference, and quit whining about how bad America has become.

...America isn't as bad as lots of folks make it out to be. Try spending a week in the slums of Moscow, or in Communist China or North Korea. Get informed for a change and see how well our government treats us compared to many other countries out there. Get a good look at poverty, and famine, and death that happens in the streets of many third-world nations. Then maybe these people learn to appreciate what this country is doing for them and has been doing for them since before they were even born.

November '08 is coming, and with it will come changes. How are you going to ensure that these changes benefit you?

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Originally Posted by Mr. Clandestine

No offense, but that movie was pure one-sided garbage. For someone to even think that 9/11 was a conspiracy perpetrated by an oil/money hungry government is pretty absurd. I don't like Bush, and never voted for him, but to even assume that he'd even be intelligent enough to pull off such a conspiracy is really bordering on insanity. If you want REAL proof, with REAL facts, from REAL sources about what happened on 9/11/01... check this site out: Debunking 9/11 Conspiracy Theories & Myths

If that one isn't enough, here's another site for you to scratch your head over: 9/11 Myths

(Did you note how their facts were actually supported by verifiable documentation? Something most conspiracy theorists NEVER give you...)

I understand that many people may not be feeling patriotic with the circumstances surrounding our nation, and I'm not asking anyone to condone the actions/wars of the Bush administration. But I do ask that Americans show some sense of patriotism and get their facts straight before attempting to spread the word about ignorant/misinformed propaganda films like 'Loose Change'. At least be supportive of the troops, who are only where the are because they've sworn an oath to be there. If people are so worried about the way things are going, then maybe consider being proactive for a change. Encourage others to vote... it's a very effective way of letting your voice be heard. Write to governmental officials, don't forget to be patient, and they may just happen to write you back. (It's happened several times to me.) Support your community by donating time or money to local services and charities. Find a way to make a difference, and quit whining about how bad America has become.

...America isn't as bad as lots of folks make it out to be. Try spending a week in the slums of Moscow, or in Communist China or North Korea. Get informed for a change and see how well our government treats us compared to many other countries out there. Get a good look at poverty, and famine, and death that happens in the streets of many third-world nations. Then maybe these people learn to appreciate what this country is doing for them and has been doing for them since before they were even born.

November '08 is coming, and with it will come changes. How are you going to ensure that these changes benefit you?

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Awesome post! Now if you'll excuse me I am gonna go jump in my black helicopter and hunt poor people for sport.:D

We often hear of British soldiers being fired on by US forces and the resulting injuries and deaths are put down to friendly fire.There's nothing friendly about being shot.
US troops get training to avoid friendly-fire attacks on British - Times Online

It's further proof that the troops are either badly trained or badly commanded or both. As far as I know British troops have not fired against thier allies and in the majority of cases it has been American troops firing on Brits.

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Originally Posted by psychocat

It's further proof that the troops are either badly trained or badly commanded or both. As far as I know British troops have not fired against thier allies.

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Guess someone hasn't done their fuckin homework, eh?
Pardon me, but suffering from optical rectitis is treatable.
optical rectitis: Having ones head so far up their ass, all they can see is their own shit.

British troops â??kill Danes in friendly fireâ?? « Aftermath News
23 Coalition Troops Killed in Friendly Fire
Dutch Troops Kill 4 in Friendly Fire
LiveLeak.com - 'UK friendly fire' killed troops

This happens in every war. This war is no different, nor will the next one be. Does anyone really think there is a conspiracy by the Americans to slowly eliminate their allies? Does anyone think that mistakes don't happen, or that equipment never fails? Or that signals never get crossed, or situations never change, or that split-second decisions don't always end up like you would like?

Coalition troops are very well trained, and precautions are in place to help reduce the numbers of incidents, and yet even they realize...shit happens.

This is a war, not an ice cream social. Our guys in theatre are getting fired upon from all sides. (including from those at home, that claim to have been in the service, yet slam the military every chance they get. I'm sure you were real popular in your unit.)

Moronic.

The loose change comment was a joke man.
I'm not a lefty.
Pls don't chew me out for sayin it. sorry it seemed serious.

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Originally Posted by FreshNugz

Pls don't chew me out for sayin it. sorry it seemed serious.

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Sorry for jumping on you, man. I didn't even realize you were Canadian when I responded, which partially explains the misinformation. And which is also why I went back in at the last minute and edited all of the "yous" that were originally written, and replaced them with "Americans".

Anyway, I hear 'Loose Change' being defended all too often, and all too often it is by American citizens who should know better... though for some inexplicable reason, many of our citizens want to play the conspiracy card, but don't want to research the actual facts behind the theories they so desperately try to defend. My tirade wasn't meant to be directed towards you, but rather to anyone foolish enough to defend their allegations based on just watching this idiotic film.

I watched it a few years ago, and remember thinking to myself at the time, "Hmm...some of this actually makes sense." But not one to be misled, even by nifty documentaries with trippy background music, I did my own research and came up with a lot of the same facts that the "Debunking..." websites now have. A little later, "Debunking 9/11" was released, and confirmed a lot of the things I had suspected to be true in the first place. Dad after day, damn near every myth from the documentary began to fall apart, and even the film-maker admitted that most of his film wasn't based on any fact whatsoever. He was just looking to get a rise out of gullible people, and to make some money in the process. It's easy to see where his loyalty lies, which is why I get a little irate when I hear someone defend his film.

Sorry again for the rant. But believe it or not, many Americans are still genuinely upset about 9/11, and don't like to hear anyone "joke" about it... especially when referring to 'Loose Change' as a basis for their political arguments.

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Originally Posted by 8182KSKUSH

Awesome post! Now if you'll excuse me I am gonna go jump in my black helicopter and hunt poor people for sport.:D

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lol, I hear that the elderly and small children make for easier (slower) targets! No sense in wasting valuable killing time on those who can run from you. :jointsmile:

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Originally Posted by Rusty Trichome

Guess someone hasn't done their fuckin homework, eh?
Pardon me, but suffering from optical rectitis is treatable.
optical rectitis: Having ones head so far up their ass, all they can see is their own shit.

British troops â??kill Danes in friendly fireâ?? « Aftermath News
23 Coalition Troops Killed in Friendly Fire
Dutch Troops Kill 4 in Friendly Fire
LiveLeak.com - 'UK friendly fire' killed troops

This happens in every war. This war is no different, nor will the next one be. Does anyone really think there is a conspiracy by the Americans to slowly eliminate their allies? Does anyone think that mistakes don't happen, or that equipment never fails? Or that signals never get crossed, or situations never change, or that split-second decisions don't always end up like you would like?

Coalition troops are very well trained, and precautions are in place to help reduce the numbers of incidents, and yet even they realize...shit happens.

This is a war, not an ice cream social. Our guys in theatre are getting fired upon from all sides. (including from those at home, that claim to have been in the service, yet slam the military every chance they get. I'm sure you were real popular in your unit.)

Moronic.

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Moronic is calling names over the net.

The MAJORITY of friendly fire incidents involve US troops firing on thier allies , it does happen with others but it seems more likely to happen when US troops or airforce are around.

Wonder how many Loose Change movies they will have to do?

There's a second re-make already set for distribution. (third movie of the "series") Pretty soon after all the lies, red-herrings and deciept are removed, it'll be a five minute list of movie credits.

Any responsible documentarian of fact would have done background research prior to the making of the film, or at least include the reasons for removing the original debunked content, side by side with what the real evidence had shown. I have a feeling they are just tweaking their facts to squeeze all of the loose change out of liberal pockets. But hey...if liberals are gullible enough to keep paying to see the same people in the same movie, cry the same conspiracy crap, the kids that made the movie will keep the revisions coming.

9-11 Review: Hoax-Promoting Videos
"The makers of Loose Change have finished the third edition of their film, Final Cut. The Second Edition was significantly different than the first, but Final Cut is an even more significant departure still. Although it has far fewer errors than Second Edtion, it has received far less publicity."

Far fewer errors...? How about striving for no errors!

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Originally Posted by psychocat

Moronic is calling names over the net.

The MAJORITY of friendly fire incidents involve US troops firing on thier allies , it does happen with others but it seems more likely to happen when US troops or airforce are around.

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What I was calling moronic was your statement " As far as I know British troops have not fired against thier allies."

Does not take long to check your 'facts'. (at least it didn't take me long to check your facts)
If not moronic, then how about shady, or at the very least, misleading?
Disingenuous was the word that first came to my mind, but moronic was quicker to type.

I'm sure it has nothing to do with the fact we have the lions share of troops and weapons in-theatre. Wouldn't make sense that any of the other forces would have more FF incidents, now would it?

FF incidents also happen in police situations, too. Any comments as to that fact? Just a couple of references:
Police rethink ââ?¬Ë?always armedââ?¬â?¢ policy - Crime & courts - MSNBC.com
AP New York News | CW11 New York | WPIX-TV

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Originally Posted by Mr. Clandestine

Anyway, I hear 'Loose Change' being defended all too often, and all too often it is by American citizens who should know better... though for some inexplicable reason, many of our citizens want to play the conspiracy card, but don't want to research the actual facts behind the theories they so desperately try to defend.

But believe it or not, many Americans are still genuinely upset about 9/11, and don't like to hear anyone "joke" about it... especially when referring to 'Loose Change' as a basis for their political arguments.

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Well, the joke was directed at all those people who are on the 'my government is so terrible and its doing this, that, and whatever to me'. It was a sarcastic gesture, simply saying its ridiculous what people think the 'government is doing to them these days'.

Wasn't joking about 9/11. I have a heart dude.

And I think so many play that conspiracy card because they can't process everything your country seems to throw through the media at you. It is argued that today's generation has been brought up to be critical..to ask questions...to be skeptical, at least moreso than our parents or grandparents were. They were brought up to do as they were told. Therefore, the rash of belief in these conspiracies is just the youth exercising their right to be critical.

You can debunk 9/11 all you want...I don't buy that shit of the US itself flew those planes and made it happen....BUT.. do I think there was a chance they knew it was coming and didn't stop it? I can't argue that to be impossible.

Sry for the double post, i tried to edit and include this part but it said i was longer than 10mins and therefore have to contact an admin...so double post it is...

In your first post to me, you said something about troops being there cause they took an oath and that I should support them...
I support my Canadian troops in Afghanistan, every step of the way. And i fully understand the courage and valour they display on a regular basis.

I support good hardworking troops all over the world who are defending their respective areas.
I have a problem, however with Blackwater mercenaries who are accountable to NOBODY. And I don't support your governments use of their 'services'. Thats the closest I come to not supporting troops.

Impossible that the govt. knew...? No

Quite possible they knew something was going to happen, but without knowing exactly who, what, where, when and how...what would you have recommended the govt. to do?
Wouldn't it look better catching the plot before it happened? Would send a stronger message that you don't mess with us. But that doesn't fit in with the "Bush wanted this war on terror" crap.
Had Clinton Sr. (Bill) taken care of those that bombed the embassy's in Dar es Salaam, Tanzania and Nairobi, Kenya, perhaps this war on terror could have been delayed or avoided altogether.
Million dollar cruise missles, and he pegged a tent. Thank god that Monica stuff was so prevalent, to cover his incompetence, lol.

Very improbable that govt. knew...? Definatelly.

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Originally Posted by FreshNugz

Wasn't joking about 9/11. I have a heart dude.

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It's cool, sarcasm has a hard time ringing through in these forums sometimes.

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Originally Posted by FreshNugz

It is argued that today's generation has been brought up to be critical..to ask questions...to be skeptical, at least moreso than our parents or grandparents were.

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Can't argue with you there, and it's never a bad thing to be critical of your government. We're responsible for giving power to bureaucrats, so we should never go into our decision with blind reasoning. But sometimes, as is clearly evident from true conspiracy nutjobs, criticism can cross the line and become baseless, heartless, and generalizing.

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Originally Posted by FreshNugz

....BUT.. do I think there was a chance they knew it was coming and didn't stop it? I can't argue that to be impossible.

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Rusty is right, we KNEW that there was unrest in the Middle East... but in the absence of a true threat, we were more or less forced to sit on our hands until something happened. There have been numerous opportunities to stop bin Laden in the past, long before he ever could have orchestrated 9/11. But again, as Rusty pointed out, the accusation of inaction goes back further than Bush. Bush, as much as I don't care for him, still gets credit from me for at least doing his job when these terrible events actually did unfold. I would utterly despise him now had he reacted like a total pacifist.

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Originally Posted by Rusty Trichome

Million dollar cruise missles, and he pegged a tent.

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:S2: Our tax dollars hard at work...

...but hey, in defense of Slick, he was able to obliterate a small target in an incredibly vast world! That kind of precise calculation has gotta count for something, right?

The Apache attack choppers that were involved in a recent friendly fire incident were from both the US and Brit forces and the Brits had no problem hitting the right target.
The reason for this is because the US needed to extend the range of the Apache in Afghanistan and to lose weight they decided to remove an important piece of radar equipment (Longbow) instead of simply using the same version that the Brits were using. Because of a better overall design (bigger engine bigger, fueltank , etc) the Brits kept the Longbow.

Aviation Encyclopedia: AH-64D Longbow Apache

The whole system of recognising , aiming at, and attacking your target relies heavily on Longbow and removing it makes the Apache less than it should be.
Negligence of military suppliers or cost cutting ?
I would find it hard to blame the front line as they rely on the equipment they are given but I do blame your goverment for not giving them the absolute best.

BTW I am glad I am no longer associated with an army that has been treat so badly under our own version of Napoleon, ,, Mr Tony (I'm gonna screw ya) Blair.

Well, apologies for the misunderstandings.
I'll light a joint to make amends :jointsmile:

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Originally Posted by psychocat

BTW I am glad I am no longer associated with an army that has been treat so badly under our own version of Napoleon, ,, Mr Tony (I'm gonna screw ya) Blair.

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With your attitudes about government and army, sounds to me like you had exired the army just in time.
In my unit, you would have been another of those friendly fire incidents.

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Originally Posted by Rusty Trichome

With your attitudes about government and army, sounds to me like you had exired the army just in time.
In my unit, you would have been another of those friendly fire incidents.

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I was prepared to do what every soldier did , sign for Queen and country not to serve the interests of corporate giants and bent politicians.
Your last statement only adds weight to my argument that there are a lot of trigger happy Americans.

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With your attitudes about government and army, sounds to me like you had expired the army just in time. In my unit, you would have been another of those friendly fire incidents.

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You serving in the military right now? You are defending something that is into big time drug testing, I was an ranger, one of the first women, and did serve my time. If you are so up on the whole system than why smoke pot? America is also involved in another war, have you heard of it, THE WAR ON DRUGS. They have made this war one of the most costly wars we have ever fought and are losing in a major way. I canâ??t work for the system; I know in my heart that a lot of what the government does is wrong. PERIOD. Love the attitude about someone on the board being a victim of friendly fire.
Just keeps the bad American name going, trust me I don't trust the American government as far as I can throw them. I use to, but after too many years and witness too many things I know was wrong I can no longer keep silent. :icon220: