Need help with nutrient lockout

Hope somebody can clear this up for me. I am almost 100% that I have nutrient lockout and that it is being caused by a ph problem.

Sorry I don't have any pics to show, but from what I've seen and read, I am sure it is a nutrient lockout. I have 8 plants. 3 of them have burnt tips and edges and turning yellow. 2 of them show an Iron deficiency, and the other 3 look very healthy. The medium I am using is Promix. I water with regular tap water, the ph on the tap water is 7.2 to 7.3. This is where I am confused. When I do a ph on the runoff of the plants, the ph is anywhere from 6.3 to 6.9. I have read that Promix is a soiless medium. And other places say to treat it as 'soil'. If it is a soiless medium, then am I correct in assuming that I should be keeping the ph between 5.5 and 6.0?? Or is that the current ph level, correct?? I'm thinking that my problem is that the ph is too high, and therefore that is causing my potassium and Iron problems due to it being locked out. According the readings, potassium will get locked out on "soiless" mediums when the ph is over 6.0.

So what I am asking is, first, is Promix deemed at "soiless soil"??

And if so, then am I correct in assuming that my problems are due to my ph being too high??

If I am assuming correctly, then I should flush thoroughly the affected plants, correct?? And then after flushing, I should use some ph down in my water to bring it down to between 5.5 and 6.0. Correct??

Please, I've done lots of reading and I hope that I have figured this out. Please help.

Thank you

How about a photo? Soil runoff should be between 6.2-6.8 so I'm not understanding your thought about things being in the fives....that's for hydro. I'm not sure if using water with a ph of over 7 will cause you problems or not considering your runoff is in the normal range.

Fert buildup in the medium can cause lockouts as well. Photos would help ALOT.

sorry, I may have misposted the info. I read, in the manual on how to diagnois problems, that hydro and soiless mix the ph should be about 5.8. After I put the nutes in the water, the ph that I am pouring is about 6.8, and the runoff goes up to about 7.1.

Some people are saying that Promix is a soiless mix, thus you treat it so that the ph is 5.8 with the nutes, others say that it is a soil and the ph should be around 6.5.

What is Promix?? Soiless mix or Soil??

Well I'm no soil pro but in googling Pro Mix it's called a peat based medium.....peat is certainly not an inert medium so I think you'd have to call it soil and treat it the same way.

7.1 is too high.....i'd wonder about overfert/fert buildup as being as issue as well as those conditions can raise your ph too. Aim for 6.2-6.8. Again....photos could make a huge difference.

Hmmmmmm.....okay, all the places that sell Promix, all say that it is a soiless medium. I don't know, this is all new to me. What is considered a soiless medium?

They also said the ph level for Promix should be kept in the range of 5.7 to 6.2.

Does all this sound right?? I don't want to flush my babies, and then water them with a ph level of 5.7 as they recommend if that is not the right thing to do. Couldn't exactly tell them what I was growing.....LOL.

Oh where oh where is Stinkattic.......I hear she is the expert when it comes to soils etc.

Hopefully she will read this soon!!

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Originally Posted by faceto27

What is considered a soiless medium?

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Hydroclay, rockwool, foam, sponge, coconut coir, perlite, air, hmmmm.......

Like Weedhound, I don't know anything about pro mix first-hand, but google is a man's best friend. It is indeed soil-less, composed of peat moss, vermiculite, and perlite. Peat moss is indeed on the acidic side as far as mediums go, and will continue to turn more so.

I found a website describing Pro Mix BX (but I don't know what type you have). It sounds a little ridiculous to me, considering they equate their "pH stabilizing agents" (which sounds like balogna) maintaining a constant pH to not needing an EC meter. How does pH have anything to do with how strong your nutrient solution is?

I would recommend another media, something truly inert if that's what you want. If not, try out a soil mix.

The website said this:

"The solution is Pro-Mix BX (or Pro-Mix HP).

Promix is a planting medium (often called soil-less-mix), which on the surface looks and feels just like any garden variety potting soil but is made up of only 3 basic elements; peat moss, vermiculate and perlite. This type of mix is sometimes referred to as the triple-mix.

Promix also contains agents to stabilize the PH levels (measure of acidity) at 5.5 to 5.7 thus eliminating the problem of adjusting PH levels of the water which is crucial to indoor growing.

In other words, so long as you use Promix you do not have to understand anything about PH .. or EC or PPM. In fact all you need to know is that when the plants go dry, you need to add some food to the bucket of cold tap water and feed your plants. Fairly easy I think"

So do you think, that my nute lockout was caused by this? By just using plain tap water, and the ph of the water is 7.2, together with Pro-Mix untreated, the runoff comes in over 7.0. Thus am I concluding properly, that is the reason of my nute lockout??

And now is the time that I should do the dreaded flush to try and save them, right?

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Originally Posted by gainesvillegreen

Hydroclay, rockwool, foam, sponge, coconut coir, perlite, air, hmmmm.......

Like Weedhound, I don't know anything about pro mix first-hand, but google is a man's best friend. It is indeed soil-less, composed of peat moss, vermiculite, and perlite. Peat moss is indeed on the acidic side as far as mediums go, and will continue to turn more so.

I found a website describing Pro Mix BX (but I don't know what type you have). It sounds a little ridiculous to me, considering they equate their "pH stabilizing agents" (which sounds like balogna) maintaining a constant pH to not needing an EC meter. How does pH have anything to do with how strong your nutrient solution is?

I would recommend another media, something truly inert if that's what you want. If not, try out a soil mix.

The website said this:

"The solution is Pro-Mix BX (or Pro-Mix HP).

Promix is a planting medium (often called soil-less-mix), which on the surface looks and feels just like any garden variety potting soil but is made up of only 3 basic elements; peat moss, vermiculate and perlite. This type of mix is sometimes referred to as the triple-mix.

Promix also contains agents to stabilize the PH levels (measure of acidity) at 5.5 to 5.7 thus eliminating the problem of adjusting PH levels of the water which is crucial to indoor growing.

In other words, so long as you use Promix you do not have to understand anything about PH .. or EC or PPM. In fact all you need to know is that when the plants go dry, you need to add some food to the bucket of cold tap water and feed your plants. Fairly easy I think"

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Well I can't say I understood all this.....but I'm still impressed gainesville. :)

Stinky....where are you and could you please explain what gainesville just said? :D

HortFACT - Soilless Media in Horticulture
Promix is not a hydroponic medium, and I wouldn't be aiming for the more acidic numbers that were being thrown out here.
Treat it as if it were a soil mix.
Nothing to fear with a flush, it's just another step in growing. Salts and nutrients build-up, which will lower your ph over time. Be careful of keeping the soil too wet for too long. (don't water just before a flush, nor just after. Can cause root rot.)
I add my nutes into the final 1/2 gallon of flush water, then let it be for a few days till next watering.
HTH...

I always equated inert with a hydroponic medium but I'm just guessing.....coco is another one besides Pro Mix that confuses me. Gol DURN these new fangled.......:D

I understand what your saying, but my problem isn't from the ph going lower, the problem as I can see, is that between the waterings the ph went up, thus causing the lockout. I've flushed the affected plants and glad to report that it dosn't appear any serious damage has been caused. In a couple of days, when its time to water again, I will check the runoff for the ph level.

From what I can gather googling promix, the consensus appears to be to lower the water ph level down to the high 5's. I guess an acidic medium like this, the ph level rises between waterings to achieve that optium level in the mid 6.0's.

Oh Stinky.......can you help clarify this please?

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Originally Posted by Rusty Trichome

HortFACT - Soilless Media in Horticulture
Promix is not a hydroponic medium, and I wouldn't be aiming for the more acidic numbers that were being thrown out here.
Treat it as if it were a soil mix.
Nothing to fear with a flush, it's just another step in growing. Salts and nutrients build-up, which will lower your ph over time. Be careful of keeping the soil too wet for too long. (don't water just before a flush, nor just after. Can cause root rot.)
I add my nutes into the final 1/2 gallon of flush water, then let it be for a few days till next watering.
HTH...

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Rusty,

according ot the link you provided, they state that Promix 'is' a soiless medium. Should you not aim for a ph level of high 5's with soiless mix?

OK...I do not know all this to be fact, but by looking-up definitions it appears that:

Soil is what you dig out of the rose garden at the park. (clay or sandy base, ammendments, compost, rocks, bugs, forrest leaf-litter, weed seeds, cat shit) Some folks around the cannabis community used to call this dirt, and should be avoided if possible.

Soilless products are individual components mixed together to create a growing medium. It's a method of controlling the growing medium, to meet a gardeners needs. Gardeners have different needs, so different soilless mixes are available. Cactus mixes, African Violet mixes, seedling mixes...
That's my story, and I'm sticking to it. (until I'm schooled otherwise, lol)

This may be a bad explination, but I think I get the idea, lol.

Anyway, do you put brownish stuff in a pot, add plant, then grow/water the plant, or do you put a plant in a pot, and splash water directly on it's roots from a reservoir?

Perhaps someone else has a better explination as I'm really not 100% positive?

Compromise and aim for ph of 6. I consider a medium hydroponic if it is INERT....and peat moss isn't. We DO need the Stinkster here.....

Rusty,

I put the stuff in the pot, add plant, then grow/water the plant. I use a regular garden watering bucket to water them. Not sure what you mean splash water on it.

Was trying to find out if you grow hydroponically, or in soil...without using the word soil.

Lots of planting mixes or potting mixes are soilless, however you still need to use this stuff like it's soil. Would the name "designer soil" help, instead of soilless?
Soilless mediums used for hydroponics are a different animal and you should not concern yourself with keeping your 'potted' plants to hydroponic standards. It can/will kill your plants doing so.

I agree with Weedhound...we need Stinky to chime in and give us a really cool, really simple link. The more I try to explain, the less I think I know, lol.

or rhizome.......

Face, this thread is kind of confusing, and my pain meds ain't helping the thought process, so this may be a stupid question, but, do you understand that you absolutely MUST adjust the pH of every drop of liquid that you put in your pots? It seems like you are saying that you are watering and flushing with unadjusted water.

PC :smokin:

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Originally Posted by PharmaCan

Face, this thread is kind of confusing, and my pain meds ain't helping the thought process, so this may be a stupid question, but, do you understand that you absolutely MUST adjust the pH of every drop of liquid that you put in your pots? It seems like you are saying that you are watering and flushing with unadjusted water.

PC :smokin:

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Pharma,

Yes, I was just watering without any regard for the ph of the nutrient or water going in. I was mislead. There are a couple of sites, that people have saying with Promix, because it is ph adjusted, you don't need to monitor your water or nutrient ph intake, because the Promix will adjust. I should have known better, it just didn't make any logical sense.

One of the plants, I think I may have to call a priest. :sadcrying

I flushed the affected plants yesterday, all of them seem fine with the flush, top leaves seem happy, but one plant the leaves really have basically collapsed. Furthermore, I noticed that soil, was very very damp still, even though its directly underneath 1000 hps, and a fan blowing for all of them. Much more damp than the other ones. So, I have just given it another flush, this time I measured the ph runoff.......it came in at 7.9. So, I'm thinking that I have a very heavy salt build up at the bottom of the pot, thus the high ph, and the very poor drainage. I think this plant is a lost cause, unless someone thinks there is something I can do to give it some hope, aside from an exorcism. The plant is 6 weeks old.

You'd be amazed how much abuse these plants can take. Drill some holes in your pot, sides and bottom, to improve the drainage then flush with pH adjusted water until your runoff comes out where you want it. Water with 1/4 strength nutes.

Priests can't help plants - it all has to do with the birth control issue. You need to get naked and dance around your grow room while waving ostrich feathers. It's the only metaphysical treatment that really works.

PC :smokin:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PharmaCan

You'd be amazed how much abuse these plants can take. Drill some holes in your pot, sides and bottom, to improve the drainage then flush with pH adjusted water until your runoff comes out where you want it. Water with 1/4 strength nutes.

Priests can't help plants - it all has to do with the birth control issue. You need to get naked and dance around your grow room while waving ostrich feathers. It's the only metaphysical treatment that really works.

PC :smokin:

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Okay, just finished dancing, havn't gotten dressed yet, so forgive me while I type in the buff. ;)

There is still one big problem to resolve though. What is the ph level that I should be using for watering/nutrient intake??

Do I treat it as soil, and go for 6.5 thereabouts? Or do I treat it as soiless, and every reasearch that I can find, says that for Promix, it is soiless, and the ph level should be about 5.8.

Its a big difference. I flushed yesterday with the ph adjusted to 5.8, but its too early to tell if that is the way to go. But in the next couple of days, it will be watering time for all the plants, and I really need to figure out, what level the ph should be with a Promix based soil medium. Where I bought the Promix, the dude said, to go 5.8, and nutient intake every watering, but only use 1/2 (10ml) as opposed to the normal 20ml per 8 litres of water.

I understand your more of a hydro guy, but if you know the answer to this riddle, please do tell.

:smokin:

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How does pH have anything to do with how strong your nutrient solution is?

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The nutrients are absorbed depending on your pH level. If you have a very high EC solution but the pH is not optimal the plants won't absorb as much nutrient. The same high EC with the optimal pH will permit the plant to absorb the nutrient at a much higher level, but you run the risk of running into nutrient burn. Ideally you need an optimal pH and a nutrient solution with an EC just under the level of nute burn. The level of EC can be quite tricky to work out, since for a period of time (i.e. a couple of weeks) your EC can be higher that the level that causes burns without burning the plants, since they are stocking nutrients in the stems, leaves, buds etc. Eventually the plant material becomes saturated with nutrients and if you maintain an EC level as high as you did before the leaves will start burning.

This is for hydro, for soil the same principles apply, but they are harder to control precisely since the soil will buffer against quick variations of the EC or pH level.

:thumbsup:

Okay, I believe I have finally found the answer to the ph in soiless medium. The followinhg link is report from Ohio State University, and they do confirm that for soiless media, the ph level needs to be maintained between 5.7-6.4. Otherwise micronutrients and potassium lockouts occur.

Micronutrient Disorders, HYG-1252-98

Oh please.....and what did I say.....6. I need to grow another arm to pat myself on the back. :D

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Originally Posted by Weedhound

Oh please.....and what did I say.....6. I need to grow another arm to pat myself on the back. :D

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Give yourself a pat on the back.

Should get Stinky to post that in her noobie guidelines. Otherwise, people will make the same mistake as I did.

This is what is posted on one of the websites that sells Pro-mix.

"Promix also contains agents to stabilize the PH levels (measure of acidity) at 5.5 to 5.7 thus eliminating the problem of adjusting PH levels of the water which is crucial to indoor growing.



In other words, so long as you use Promix you do not have to understand anything about PH .. or EC or PPM. In fact all you need to know is that when the plants go dry, you need to add some food to the bucket of cold tap water and feed your plants. Fairly easy I think."

That is soooooo wrong. If you put water in there that is ph 8.0, the prom-mix stabilizing agents are going to bring it all the way down to 5.7 ????? No way.

I have a dying plant as proof, and 3 in the infirmary recuperating from spending the past 2 days in Extensive Care.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by prairieplantsystems

The nutrients are absorbed depending on your pH level. If you have a very high EC solution but the pH is not optimal the plants won't absorb as much nutrient. The same high EC with the optimal pH will permit the plant to absorb the nutrient at a much higher level, but you run the risk of running into nutrient burn. Ideally you need an optimal pH and a nutrient solution with an EC just under the level of nute burn. The level of EC can be quite tricky to work out, since for a period of time (i.e. a couple of weeks) your EC can be higher that the level that causes burns without burning the plants, since they are stocking nutrients in the stems, leaves, buds etc. Eventually the plant material becomes saturated with nutrients and if you maintain an EC level as high as you did before the leaves will start burning.

This is for hydro, for soil the same principles apply, but they are harder to control precisely since the soil will buffer against quick variations of the EC or pH level.

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You took my quote out of the context of it's paragraph. The question was to make a point that the company's claim that because the pH is 'stabilized', you do not need to monitor the PPM of your nutrient solution whatsoever... which is completely false.

I'm gonna stick this chart in ph related threads...:jointsmile:

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Originally Posted by Dutch Pimp

I'm gonna stick this chart in ph related threads...:jointsmile:

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Hey Dutch Pimp - I got your pm's here and there. Too soon to rep you again here and not enough posts to reply at the other place.

Good chart, BTW! :thumbsup:

PC :smokin:

has anybody else had any trouble with their ph using soiless mix?

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If you put water in there that is ph 8.0, the prom-mix stabilizing agents are going to bring it all the way down to 5.7 ????? No way.

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Yes way... I've been using Promix HP for 3 years and I have yet to put any kind of solution into it that hasn't come out within 5.8 - 6.2 range. (Haven't tried as high as 8.0 yet, but 7.5 has never given me any problems.)

How are you measuring the pH, with a meter? Is it properly callibrated everytime you use it?

Promix is a "soiless" medium and the pH range should be kept at around 5.8-6.0. And, yes, in most situations you don't have to bother with the pH (EC is a must in any situation though). Though if you really are reading runoff in the high to mid 6's then you should definitely try pH downing (obviosly try one plant first.)
Believe me, as helpful as these (and similar) forums are there seems to be a general lack of understanding of Pro-mix and related media.



I have had problems of my own recently that sound very similar to those that you are describing: yellowing and burning leaves that seem to come around week 6-7 in the plants life. I have yet to pinpoint the problem exactly, but here are my conclusions so far after 4-5 crops with the same problem :

1. Originally thought that it was just nute burn, but I've gone down to a 1/4 of my orignal doses (different crops) without improvement. In fact the latest batch now have many definite signs of nute def.

2. Investigated the pH possibility but have always found my pH in the correct range.

3. Have tried monitoring EC levels, and have mostly maintained those in and around what is considered optimal for weed. Though as I said nute doses were lowered so the EC has been kept lower for the latest batch. Doesn't seem to be the problem either, though I definitely have to work with this more.

Given the above I've gone right back to the source and re-looked at my tap water. I've noticed this winter that the pH has crept up from the usual 7.0 - 7.2 range to about 7.3 - 7.4. Like I said, with Promix pH should not be an issue, but this definitely indicates that something in the water has been changing, most likely the mineral content. Given that I'm constantly scraping calcium deposits off my humidifier I'm fairly certain that my water has increased in Ca over this winter.

I did some research into Ca and found that too much Ca can lock out (magnesium) Mg. I then compared my symptoms to Mg def and they seem to be a perfect match. This is a fairly recent conclusion so I have yet to test it. You mentioned that the pH of your water is around 7.3, maybe you are having similar problems? If not Mg than perhaps you have too much of some other mineral? I know that too much Ca affects Fe (Iron) uptake as well.


Anyways here some tips for Pro-mix; I've had great success with it before (using GH FloraNova series):

1. Soak it everytime you water, feed or no feed. You should aim for about 25% run off.

2. Fert salts can build up quickly in it so once you get to bud, leach with plain water every other watering for sure.

3. Don't use ferts when transplanting them to larger pots. Transplant then give straight water; feed next time (and then alternate if in bloom).


Would attach some pics of my symptoms, but can't figure it out in this forum yet.

I use promix, but I keep my ph at about 6.3.

I treated it as though it were soil. My plants have all done great in promix for the 2-3 weeks.

When they're initially seedlings in rapid rooters is the only time I'll water with water ph'd below 6.0. I use 5.8 to be exact. Something I read about the slightly more acidic range being great for root development early on.

I've been using ProMix BX lately and the trick to avoiding pH problems is this:

Promix is stabilized at the packaging plant by addition of lime, a pH buffer (CaCO3). The pH of peat, the major component, is naturally around 5ish. The lime keeps the pH up above 6 UNTIL IT IS USED UP. This occurs because when you add water, you are allowing a chemical reaction (neutralization of the acids in the peat by the lime) to take place. Over time, the amount of lime left will drop, and this neutralization stops taking place.

Your job as the soilless ProMix grower is to keep ahead of the pH!

Typically you will start to see problems after about 8 weeks of the plant being in the same pot. This is because the lime is used up and the peat is breaking down into a sludgy peaty acidic swampy mess. pH will plummet.

So how do you avoid this? Simple!

Pot up into a pot that is JUST big enough for your plants. Time your grow so you are potting up into the next size pot, with fresh ProMix, every 5-6 weeks so that new root growth is ALWAYS going into nice fresh soil.

Staying on schedule, you should rarely if ever have to flush to keep your mix at the desireable soilless range which is about 0.4 pH points below the range for soil.

Good luck.

PH water and nute mix for pro mix or "soiless mix" at 6.3 its best... was told this from a very good grower from the old advanced nutrients forum... (damb it all for shutting it down)

Sounds like you got ahold of a bunk batch of promix. I been using it for years and I never had a problem like yours. It doesnt really matter what your ph is in the water your feeding the plants. It always comes out with a runoff in high 5's usually 5.8 everytime. I done several experiment tests even put in just straight tap water from faucet and it still gets a run off high 5's. On the bag of promix it only guarantees a 9 month shelf life once it is open and also if you are mixing your promix with water before you put into pot you have to throw out all unused left in the mix. The water activates the lime and cause the ph to rise. So only premix what you plan on using and never store the wet mix

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Originally Posted by faceto27

And other places say to treat it as 'soil'.

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Treat is as soil means treat it as soil, 6.8 ph. :mad:

You are treating it like hydroponic which is not treated as soil, 5.8ph. :cursing:

Since the question has been asked, and answered, about a dozen times I just thought I'd say the same thing again just in other words. :what: