Rusty's Bonsai Downsizing...

Wasn't sure where to post this, but I wouldn't be offended, with it being moved to it's proper place. (as long as it isn't in the trash, lol)
First off...don't try this at home, I'm a trained...um...ok, so I'm not really trained.
But
I saw this in another post, and was wondering if it would work. I had previous experience in growing bonsai, and figured I'd give it a grow...

Reason for doing it...
An incoming crop of plants from the veg room was forcing my hand. The plants in veg were getting too stinky in the house, so had to move them out to the flower room. I had already harvested the other three Diesels, and this one was lagging what looked like a week or so back. Weeks I didn't have...I needed the space and the pot.

So rather than cut-n-toss, I, well...it's easier to show what I did:
Top left pix: Lazy Diesel in 5 gallon pot.
Top center: Just been hacked.
Top right: Removed from pot, cut root ball to size.
Bottom: Plunked into a 1 gallon container.
(all pix in this post taken on 12-22-07)

Up to date pix:

She's been re-vegging for a bit over two weeks. I flushed when first put in for re-veg, regular veg nute routine from then on. No other special treatment.
No signs of stress, no nanners, but already about 3" of new growth.
As now I'm needing the space in the veg room, will soon up-pot (transplant into bigger pot) and throw her back into flower. Sure could use another couple of grow rooms, lol.

Pix on left was taken on 1-04-08
Pix on right taken today 1-09-08

whats up whith tha plant on the left some of the leaves arent jagged?

Common, early in a re-veg. I'm guessing the plant is simply going..."WTF?"
Will re-pot it tomorrow in a 3 gallon and see if it will still fit in my veg room.

Gee...no insights, no insults, and only one question?
Has anyone here tried this before, and what were the results?

Anyway, I transplanted into a 3 gallon pot and is still in veg room. About 4" of new growth since chopping her. Looking great so far. Will take clones next week, then put her back into the flower room.
If this is a repeatable process, and can be used with other strains, it can save about 3 to 4 weeks of veg time. (or add 3 to 4 weeks to maturity before flowering)
Might be quicker than waiting for seedlings and clones to root/mature, and I don't have to worry about trying to fit my re-grows (in 5 gallon pots) in with my other seedlings and clones.
Will have to see during flowering, what the stresses may have caused, but as I said...looking good so far.

Can't wait to try this with the C-99 x Sweet Tooth I just put into the flowering room.

Picture is from today:
Chopped Diesel (with Swazi clones in the left corner, and a Rusty's Pokerface seedling behind the Diesel)

I have always heard re-veg is more trouble than it's worth...but ..what the hell...;)...I'm gonna try it.

But, first I've got to harvest the colas first, then let lower buds mature, (something new for me too). I have pollenated buds on the lower bud sites, at least, I think i do.

Then, I will try re-vegging; but, I'm at least a month behind you on this.

Question?...your cut the root ball down to fit in 1 gallon pot...I would rather just leave them in the 10 inch pot, they are in now, or should I transplant to something smaller? Is this a fresh soil move/idea?

The only reason I originally downsized the pot was to be able to fit it in my veg room, without compromising my other 'veggies' (vegging clones/seedlings)
Being able to give some fresh soil was on my mind, but in actuality there wasn't much room in the 1 gal. pot for more.
It was quicker and easier flushing the smaller pot to help leach-out the flower ferts, tho.

Also, I forgot to mention that immediatelly after I cut the root ball down to size, I sprayed the root ball with ph'd water, and sprinkled some rooting hormone on the roots before re-potting. Not sure it was a good idea, or a bad idea. Pot was immediatelly rootbound which is why I have already transplanted into a 3 gallon pot. (altho no signs of problems, wanted to be sure none showed up)

Nice grow. Is that a bug trap hanging there, or just a tease for the plants?

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Is that a bug trap hanging there, or just a tease for the plants?

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haha...never thought about that...I just put that in there for depth perception...but, I guess a person could put a little canalope juice in there, and trap every dog-dick gnat around....:D

Looks good rusty. Sounds like you've got a lot of different strains, have to say I'm jealous.

A few years ago, I was gifted a "research and development" strain from ReeferMan, a couple of med strains thanks to a very kind and generous native american indian, and some hybrids being offered by a breeder learning the trade.
Definatelly was at the right place at the right time. Comes in handy now, tho. Wife and I are on a very fixed income, and simply can't afford the new, designer genetics. (unless we were to win the Powerball jackpot)

Bummer about the pix. :stoned:

pix are working now :thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by Rusty Trichome

Can't wait to try this with the C-99 x Sweet Tooth I just put into the flowering room.

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are you talking about bogs sc99 if so then i have 2 that sprouted and looking decent

i have never tried to bonsai or reveg but sometime this week im goin to bonsai some plants and get some good mothers going.

your reveg looks great for everything the plant went through, but i would think it would be more economical to bonsai the mom and take abunch of clones to flower, can have em ready in almost 3 weeks to be flowered and once the mom is old enough you wont have a problem on getting alot of clones

you can also trim the roots of the mom and keep her in smaller pots with good success

mums
heres the origional poster from og

International Cannagraphic Magazine Forums - ALL ABOUT BONSAI MOMS/MUMS
heres an updated version with alittle more info

Guess this grow log is cancelled...

http://boards.cannabis.com/basic-gro...e-matters.html

Texas...Thanks for the links, but been there already. Also...my C-99 x Sweet Toots is from a few years ago, so I kinda doubt it's the same. One of my favorites, tho.

Well, it seems I have two survivors from the cold-room incident. (heater had quit, thought I had lost all plants to the cold)
One survivor was a Swazi, the other is the Diesel I had chopped to downsize for this project.
After cutting off the soggy shoots, I just left them in the flower room. The rest of the plant has perked back up. I check daily for nanners, but have found none yet. Possible stunting, but is normally a short plant anyway, lol.


First pix is the Diesel from the top.
Second pix is of the plants base. It had an unusual one to begin with, just to show it's the same plant.

Here's a couple of shots of the flower room...

First pix...just above the lights. The 2x4 'hangers' are about 3' long, and anchored to the horiz. board along the back wall. The 2x4's pivot freely, and can be un-screwed from the pivot-point, and slide left and right. 7' or so of headroom. Up to 7' wide, if I wanted.

Second pix...the grow area and a few 3 gallon plants waiting to be sexed.

rusty....i am tryin bonsai moms next crop...same thing you did, you wanna cut root ball after every clone chop, and with some topping, a 18 in bonsai can have 20-30 clones on it...good idea, slightly differant than yours, but keep tweaking, never thought to reveg.....you sadist you....
:smokebong:
whiskeytango

I love bonzai art, have done it for a long time, Im definatly going to try this with my mothers :)

Thanks !

Adds an extra dimension to our hobby. :jointsmile:

A quick update...

I have found this method to be quite reliable, and well worth the effort. Had one failure, but that was due to me seeing just how much you can remove from the foliage before it's too much.

As long as there are active internode sites with green leaves, even if very small, it'll grow. But there must be SOMETHING there to convert the sun's energy.

Conversely, I have found that it works best to remove as much of the budsites as possible, prior to re-vegging. My belief is that it's a hormone thing. If you don't remove the budsites, plant takes forever to start vegging again, and she will show signs of freaking-out. (an un-technical term for leaf weird-out syndrome)

Have been asked..."why not just take clones..."?
Well, I guess if you would rather have fresh-cut, unrooted clones, suceptible to stress, needing to be pampered and coddled...go for it. This ain't no sissy technique, lol. Technically, it's an 8" rooted clone from a plant that I've already seen is worthy of re-veg. If at some point I wish to do the clone mother thing, then yes, I do have that option. In abundance.

This Bonsai method:
Like getting the biggest, healthiest clone you've ever seen. Multiple budsites without further topping or fimming.
Plant starts her flowering stretch within a couple of days, not a couple of weeks.
It's an older plant from the word go, and she's dying to pump-out the buds.
No worries about lights too strong, or going overboard with the nutes. Stick with your regular veg schedule.
Were I inclined to SCROG, this is the technique I would definatelly apply.

Oh, BTW...Since starting this project in Jan, no hermies.

good shit rusty....I am going to be bonsai-ing all my moms now...they are vegging now...few more days Ill start shaping em...thanks for posting your results!!!!
whiskeytango:thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by SnSstealth

good shit rusty....I am going to be bonsai-ing all my moms now...they are vegging now...few more days Ill start shaping em...thanks for posting your results!!!!
whiskeytango:thumbsup:

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Thanks SnS. Good luck and please, let me know how you're progressing. Any questions, just holler.
4 out of 6 plants in my flower room right now, are bonsai. The other two are clones from a previous bonsai.
Altho I love this technique, I feel kinda bad throwing all my extra smoke in the compost heap.

I've got some Inca Spirit (indica) x Pokerface (indica dom) I'm trying this on next. When I get some camera batteries I'll post the story here. I'm just about to bury them up to their cotelydons, so it will be a while.

oooooh, keep me posted!! very curious about pokerface:jointsmile:
whiskeytango

yo man!!!! u da man! I was wonder on how I'm doing this.. I got this one leda-uno phenotype thats flowering and it smells like dirty bathrooms, all the others smell like pineapple hard candy. you've basically showed me wot to do, and for that I am greatful sir!

heya rusty,

great thread w/ pics of how to bonsai.. just a few questions.. my next grow I plan on doing 6-7 plants in a very cramped space (30" tall, 14" wide) . Going to start from clone, and bonsai'ing them has crossed my mind. How long after you start seeing new growth can you flip to flower? Once bonsai'd do they tend to not get very tall? For efficiency, my space really encourages single cola plants. What would happen If i just bonsai'd the secondary shoots and left the top alone?

any suggestions are definitely appreciated! :D

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Originally Posted by greenatik

heya rusty, great thread w/ pics of how to bonsai..

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Appreciate it, thanks. You too, ND.

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Originally Posted by greenatik

...How long after you start seeing new growth can you flip to flower?

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I give 'em a month or so. Generally takes a week to start showing the new growth.

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Originally Posted by greenatik

Once bonsai'd do they tend to not get very tall?

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Correct. They still stretch, but not as much as from seed or clone. With my indica's I'll give 'em an extra week or two in re-veg. Seems to cut the PMS (Pre Motherhood Stretch...the stretch that happens when you switch from veg schedule to flower schedule) about in half for both sativa and indica hybrids.

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Originally Posted by greenatik

What would happen If i just bonsai'd the secondary shoots and left the top alone?

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I've never left the cola, but from the experience of leaving some of the lesser (insignificant) buds, the flowering hormones that remain in the main cola would freak-out the lady early in the re-veg process. Stressing her out big time, causing slowed growth or plant death. The mature trichomes gurantee your room will stink for the next few weeks tho. Another good reason to remove all of the buds before re-veg.
Regardless, the main cola you were trying to save will make way for new growth by withering up and dying off. No ground gained there, but I like the way you think...nice try. :jointsmile:

You can easily train and trim the new growth to fit the growth habit you require.

Good luck. It's a surprisingly easier process than it looks, tho. :jointsmile:

thanks for the reply rusty!

when i said leave the main cola I meant starting fresh from a clone, and letting it grow about a foot in veg and then bonsai the secondary shoots, leaving just the main, primary shoot.

sorry for the confusion! :stoned:

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Originally Posted by greenatik

thanks for the reply rusty!

when i said leave the main cola I meant starting fresh from a clone, and letting it grow about a foot in veg and then bonsai the secondary shoots, leaving just the main, primary shoot.

sorry for the confusion! :stoned:

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This is a thread about bonsai techniques...not cloning. They are two separate techniques having virtually nothing to do with each other.
For cloning help, click this: http://boards.cannabis.com/basic-gro...ml#post1577859
and scroll down to post #10. If help is still needed beyond that...please start your own thread.

I never said I needed help cloning... Your thread says bonsai downsizing.. I want to downsize my plants by bonsai'ing the secondary shoots and leaving the main stem alone. do you think I could create a single cola plant by bonsai'ing all the shoots coming off the main stem

i am starting fresh with clones, vegging for about a month, then wanting to shape my plants by bonsai'ing all the secondary nodes

Are you growing for an ornamental purpose, or to smoke?
No, IMHO, not a good idea. You'll likely want to remove as much of the bud as possible to convince her it's spring and so she doesn't fight this sudden and dramatic change (and root tampering) with residual fall (flowering) hormones. As I don't do it that way on purpose, you're welcome to try tho, lol. :thumbsup:
The quantity of new shoots on a re-veg varies, but saying you'll get a shitload is fair. Those are cloneable.

As far as bonsai training for the growing shoots, the more you trim, the shorter they tend to grow and the more compact the results. With a sativa dom, you may get away with it. But on a squat indica it may restrict secondary growth a bit much.

Thanks for sharing Rusty. Your thread and the one titled "mums" has made me very interested in cutting back many of my moms.

Thanks Opie...For me, this is a great technique. Not one I'll discard any time soon.

The versatility of the downsized re-veg is phenominal, and the ladies love the fresh soil, fresh nutes...Likely not too appreciative of the pedicure and haircut, but thet recover very quickly.
If I had to set-up another small veg room just for the bonsai's, I'd do it. But right now, I am doing fewer seedlings and clones than was necessary before.

I did discover something...but not too sure I know what the implications are...
Early July I had a Shishkaberry on it's second re-veg, and I stressed her a bit with an aspirin tea, (aspirin stressing to promote nanners) Once I got enough pollen, I cut the lady back, trimmed the roots and downsized. I wanted to see what happens when you re-veg a forced hermie.

Any guesses how the (forced hermie) Shishkaberry reacted to re-veg and re-flower?
Well...I kept a close eye on her throughout the flowering process. I just harvested her, and de-constructed (cleaned) the buds. No nanners and not one seed. This is not scientific, and I am not telling anyone out there to try this, but it is an interesting development worth (my) trying again with a couple of different strains and a camera.

Have noticed on the normally studly Shishkaberry (sativa dominant) that after re-veg, the branches are thinner than normal, and do need bamboo stakes to support the budweight. :(

For the most part tho, all the strains I've tried have worked fine. My Potent Purple and my Swazi (both sat's) are fine with the re-vegging process, as are my indica's and indica doms. :thumbsup:

great thrread keep up the good work....

ya rusty this thread is bomb... you should post the pictures of the diesel plants in flowering stage.

Hey Rusty your thread here inspired my first bonsai ! Shes doing good now , took a while to vedge again butg guess I left to many buds on her....

Anyways shes growing into this amazing little bush now with new shoots everywhere. I was thinking of taking a bunch of clones off of her, sticking her in a vedge chamber, and proceding to flower the clones sog style.

BUT now after seeing this amazing new growth, Im tempted to take a FEW clones ...and the flower MOM in a scrog.

Would save at least a week of rooting/clone vedge time I think...

Anyways..how many times have you flowered/chopped/reveged/flowered/ect a single plant...Im just amazed by how resilient our wonderful plnat is !

Great to hear other's having success, too. Truly warms my heart. :thumbsup: Was a technique I read about somewhere, and fell in love with. I was equally impressed with the ammount of new growth.

The most I've done is 7 complete harvests, (twas an indica dom.) and shitloads of clones over that period. I got bored with the same strain all the time, and made room for another. With sativa doms, I've only gone a few complete harvests. Time to finish, and stretching are issues I'm seeking remedies for. Likely a sat dom would be great for sog training during/after re-veg, tho.

Always pick the best performer, with the best attributes of your strain, not just the first one available, lol.

I found that after trimming roots, and re-potting with fresh soil, if I do a mini-flush (equal to volume of pot) and on the last half gallon or so I add 1/2 dilution of humic acid (Soil Syrup) the roots go apeshit, which hastens her new growth.

I am going to crop today, and give the re-veg a try on the 40 i have now. i have lots of room so should be interesting as hell.
Will post after cutting today.

I had the worst spider mite problem I ever seen, just devistated my crop, and i tried everything including a preditor mites but could not control them at all.

Anyway good idea and good Grow. Thanks

Sully

Good luck with 'em. You won't be disappointed, I'm sure. :thumbsup:

Will you have room for 40 plants in flower...or after transplant? If not, could you continue with veg for half of 'em and flower the other half? But it could become a headroom issue in veg, and requires seperate veg and flower rooms.

p.s. It's not my technique, but I do love the results.

thanks for sharing the info Rusty..im gonna try it as well after harvesting pp. should i start off with no grow neuts for a few weeks just like normal too let her re veg a bit..

After I chop, dunk and flush...I resume a normal feeding schedule of a half weekly dose, twice a week. (Monday's and Thursdays for me) They do just fine, but of course keep an eye on 'em.
I would not recommend full doses (one weeks worth at a time) of nutes till re-established. :thumbsup:

I always give half nutes twice a week as a rule from teen-ager to harvest. Less stress in my heat-stressed enviornment, and seems to keep 'em on an even keel.

hay rusty,would you get a decent yeild if you re vegged for a month then flowered it..and can it be done on L.S.Td stems where there bent in weird shapes..