LEAF CLAW MYSTERY AT BUD SITE

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background
1. Soil, just got water PH from 7 to 6.5, was at 7 when problem started, cold at night 60, avg 68 to 73 day,plants over two months old, organic nutrients, water every third day, 1000 watts, problem started at 1 week into 12, now after 2 weeks into 12 hours and problem is getting worse in some, better in others and the same in others. almost no sign of mites

i have tried to water less since the first signs. if i manipulate the leaf, try to uncurl them, they will curl upwards, the leafs are still fairly healthy overall, again, this is the leaf families at the bud site

i have been reading everything i can about curling leaves lately, the claw.... i have found people mentioning the possible following causes.

low rh, blueberry strain trait, haze strain trait, ph imbalance, to much nitrogen or other nutrient, nutrient deficiency, over watering, suffocation, cold, ( growing some various haze blueberry crosses / silver haze * bb / hindu * bb )

i guess it is important to clarify the type of leaf curl and where. since there are so many leaf problems and curls, it is at the actual site of the bud growth, the leaves have no real discoloration, just hook over and curl in like eagle claws

so anyone wanne talk more about the specifics of the CLAW

or are their different causes for the CLAW

or is it just ok? natural claw ?

sorry for the pic quality, it dossent show the issue that well
hummm....

.....

I am a newbie on his first grow so take a grain of salt with this advice...

They look great! If growth is uninhibited and there is no discoloration and physical damage is not an issue than I would say that constitutes normal growth...however abnormal it looks. :jointsmile:

I see concrete and cellar insulation? Are you in the cellar? Are those plants on the floor?
Potential problem #1: Cold feet. IF your temps are dipping to 60, and that is a cellar, I'm going to assume that the floor gets even colder and/or stays steady at a temp colder than the room itself. You MUST lift plants up off a cold surface like that. Shipping pallets or milk cartons are ideal. Cold+wet+pH imbalance=dead.
Potential problem #2: Shoes too small :D Give one gallon available soil space per foot of plant height. Canoed-over leaves are a sign that the plant is pot-bound. Plus when the root mass has overwhelmed the available space, soil chemistry starts to suck big time. You will not be able to control pH as well, since the relatively large mass of living material in the pot is actively uptaking nutrients and water and changing conditions.

Okay. Bigger pot. No contact with cold floor.

like stinkyattic said, if your plants are on concrete get them off of it. that stuff gets cold! only feed once a week in soil. blueberry gets leaf twist not the claw. i'd say you have nitrogen toxicity. i've only had real claw problems when growing sativas.

mine did a claw and died of nitrogen issues, so id watch the fertilizer doses if i were you

didnt see it in your post, so i assume you didnt flush it?

I'd consider fert as well.....and make sure my ph was normal for my soil runoff.

thanks for the reply, sorry for the old post stinky, that was a mistake. anyway...

wow. durrr? the cold floor... it is not a basement, they dont make basements round here. that is the good ol ' garage floor..
however, still probably consitantly way to f-in cold.. so would you say a space heater would work just as well as lifting them of the cement... or they just need to be lifted up ?

the buckets. yeah. the sick looking plants are 6 ft tall and in 4 gallon buckets. i bet they are bound up like no tommorow, i poked some holes tin them to help breathing and let water filter out.

would you say I NEED to change the shoes. what if i dont, will it really have an impact on plant health, yeild, etc. i guess if yoyur the doctor and you say to get bigger shoes i should get bigger shoes, but what do i risk if i am a stubborn punk and keep them root bound for the next 6 weeks untill they finish flowering. ?

Given the choice, lift the plants up first of all. That's very important.
Drilling side holes was a good call.
You may still need a space heater, but first things first.
6 feet tall huh? Ehhhhhh that's a BIG plant for indoor conditions. You need to get them into bigger pots- they WILL double in size at least over the course of flower. Try a large feed-bucket, at LEAST 10 gallons. Or a kitchen-sized trash bin with lots of holes drilled in it. OR a rubbermaid tub. As long as the pot isn't metal.
When you re-pot, use plenty of perlite. This is even more important in colder conditions. Cold but dry is much safer than cold and wet for plants as well as humans. :D
A slab of that same insulation that's on the walls is fine on the floor to protect them from the cold.

so too much nitrogen and over fert. this is a seperate issue. honestly, i dont know anything about anything and i would say that this may be lending to the problem. is it the problem. i guess all three are problems. floor, shoe size, over fert.

i was watering too much for sure, on this cold floor, cold, too much water. so then the nitrogen could be making them all clawed over like that. I have definately started to water way less.

does that mean i should definately 100% water flush these problem girls out, or use a light soulution. and if i do this, should i go back to regular nutrients after a 100% water feeding cycle.

i will try to check PH run off.

also, if i manage to get them off the floor, pain in the asss, would a space heater still be a good idea during the night cycle.

You cetainly can leave them......when growing you pretty much get back what you put out. If you think they look lousy now.....wait for the end of six weeks of flowering and you'll be AMAZED at how crappy they'll look then......but on the plus side.....you'll be able to fit your whole yield into one pack of zig zags.

Too much N can cause or contribute to that leaf curl. You'll be shocked when you see what an improvement a re-pot will make though. And remember that fertilizer and pH problems are amplified by cold.
You aren't using a peat-based soil by any chance are ya? Peat media tend to go to shit VERY VERY fast sometime between the 2nd and 3rd month after first wetting and your pH will PLUMMET. If you are east of the Mississippi, go to Agway and get a couple sacks of 'manure with humus' and a couple of perlite- this stuff is MUCH more stable and the coarse texture is great for indoor growing.

"TOO MUCH NITROGEN BURNS THE EDGES OF THE LEAVES"
this is a quote from my pal.

he seems to think their is no way i over fertalized or have too much nitrogen

he thinks the whole time they only had a nutrient deficiany

argggg. getting all those girls of the floor is a pain in my arce

sorry, including the bucket/root height, they are between 4 to 5 ft tall

Too much fert generally scorches the TIPS of the leaves. What you are seeing IMHO is a combination of potbound and bad pH exacerbated by cold.
Complain all ya want about slipping a block of foam under each pot, but if the plants could talk, they'd be complaining louder. Seriously it's not all that hard. Cut up a piece of foam insulation into sqaures about 2x2 feet and have a buddy lift the pot as you slide each one under. Easier than trying to move ALL the plants and slide a BIG sheet under there ya know? You gotta re-pot anyway...
Height probs, bend them over sideways, whcih you should do anyway to take advantage of the light better. A flatter canopy and shorter plant height is desirable under artificial lights.

Oh- I speak from personal experience here. Been there, done that, from a cold cellar floor to a peaty medium running pH in the high 4's. I PROMISE I won't steer you wrong. Ask anyone.

wow. thanks for the modest dose of sarcasm weed hound.

QUOTE: from devil on my left, in response, as i read your last post aloud
" DUDE, YOU DO NOT NEED TO REPOT - YOU DO NOT NEED TO REPOT "
haven't run this all by angel on the right, talk to him later.

anyway. its so hard to navigate a path without tons of people closing doors on ideas, argg. i will have to begin to experiment... i will reup for the worst ones. did you say turn them sideways. as in lay them down on the ground. like sideways on the ground, , and leave them there, this seems radical. i guess height isnt that bad of a problem. but cool idea ?

REGARDLESS OF WHAT ANYONE SAYS; to me your analysis especially the most recent is flawless. i belive your diagnosis is completely correct, thanks for your input. i wll run some test groups.

what does IMHO combustion mean ?

so, in final analysis of my own question, with continued research besides the post. and just to sum up the post in my own words for clarification.

there is probably to much root matter in the bucket,
? so when the plant is fed,
and then fed too often,
the uptake of the nutrs is very efficient, too efficient. ?
it is not a deficiency as first suspected.

? the roots are taking up the water/nutrs
and they are getting extra nitrogen...
so this is making the leaves curl down ?

this example of leaf eagle claw / leaf canoe droop
on healthy bud site leaf families. is a result of
extra nitrogen uptake from a root bound system,
it is also cold on the roots, so ? ...
...this is slowing the plant growth at the flower top leaf ...

so maybe there is extra nitrogen there
that the plants could use
but are not able to use most efficiently. ?

there is not enough soil matter for proper plant function ?
which is only being amplified by w.constant
cold concrete during night cycle...

no need to worry about a flush so much as
the soil environment to root matter ratio in conjunction with plant uptake of and frequency of feeding and nutrs.


otherwise healthy plant
( over fert./ bound root system + cold = specific claw )

Revised: The Complete Guide To Sick Plants,pH and Pest Troubles - PlanetGanja.com

This is worth a good look through if you haven't seen it before.

yeah hound,
i am reading closer now.

who knew these girls were so sensitive,
the most affected plants have taller long weaker stems
as the guide says too much nitrogen plants will..

seems that if i have an NH4+ toxicity problem,
which dosent sound nice.
than my PH imbalance has also been having a play

ammonium based nutrients, which i am using.....
"leaf margins that will roll downward. Also the big fan leaves will have â??the clawâ?� look. The tips will point down but the leaves will stay up as if when you bend your fingers downwards"

i dont think it is the garage floor/ its not all that cold
i raised the most problematic ones on blocks
i dont think the plants are too root bound either
i think the cold is hurting, but this is something else

i think after reading that closer,
I guess the plants are just over nitrogen-ed
beginner mistake... from over feeding
not to much water really, too much N,

i cant do anything about what got them there
i guess the new question i what next?

a double volume 100% water flush
so am i assume that the plants can handle more water
they have to much build of nitrogen from the nutrients,
and in-fact may have underdeveloped roots...
so clear em out ?

if i just watered with nutrients yesterday,
should i still give a full flush tommorow
considering i thought it was a nutrient deficiency
and have been feeding accordingly

i think i am going to try to flush out the worst ones.
but what about the near future
critical bloom stages are comming up
if i cant feed nutrients i will be f-d
i guess i just need to hold back on the nutes with N

what else?

I think the N OD is a secondary problem. Hold off N in flower ANYWAY.

Don't lie the whole pot on its side, come on, think about the logic in that- bend the plant gently away from the lights.

IMHO= in my humble opinion and I don't know where you got 'combustion' from, you aren't to that step yet.

Nice phrasing by the way; it's like an ambient poem about sick plants...

When a plant is root-bound, all the flushing and pH adjustment in the world is, at best, a temporary fix.

COLD WET SOIL KILLS PLANTS. When you have ANY nutrient or pH imbalance, and you will continue to have them until you re-pot, cold soil will make it many-fold worse.

You HAVE to repot and you HAVE to lift off the cold ground.

You may or may not choose to take this advice; it sounds like you're not going to, so I can't help any more here. I'm not going to sulk and pout over having wasted my time, but I know how to grow plants. Ignore this advice at your own plants' peril.

just trying to put a finger on the specifics of the problem and then cure.

i guess problem for sure is N, too much N

I raised them up, the worst ones...

i hope to re-pot the worst today as well

just wondering if a flush would be in order.

i was concerned if i flush i might get what you said

too much cold wet soil again.

so you say just re-pot and no flush,

its just everyone says something different and

everyone in this business is so sure they know best

and then its, well just take a hike then...

well, like i said. i am going to run some test groups

we will see what happens with a flush and no repot

and I will repot a couple as well

its only a few plants that are really bad, others just show signs

i don't want to repot everything,

so for the ones that just show signs,
but are not really too bad
should i flush em'

so the worst are off the concrete and will be repotted
the one with mild curl, will be lifted up and flushed

would you agree stinky ?

Lift ALL plants.
Repot ALL plants. Use a good quality soil in volumes appropriate to your plant size.
Test soil runoff to check that pH is correct for ALL plants.
The problem is NOT primarily N overdose. There is a thread from today which shows a very clear picture of a CLASSIC N overdose brought on by overapplication of superthrive (Urea), if you would like to see it.
You have cold wet acidic soil. When you flush, you need to adjust for this. The runoff pH must fall in the range 6.5-6.8. If it is not already there, and I predict it's going to come out just below 6, you need to adjust it.
If you don't get them up off the cold floor and deal with the acidic conditions they are all going to look like shit soon enough, not just the ones that are already showing symptoms.
PLEASE read the new thread in basic growing about old soil and sativas:
http://boards.cannabis.com/basic-gro...a-growers.html
I've answered this same question already several times this week now that it's winter in the northern hemisphere and you aren't the only one having cold problems.

Yeah... I guess I'm just 'so sure I know best'. You ask a question. I give DETAILED advice. You want to argue. I say, I don't feel like wasting any more time on this question then, on to the next one. I'm going to take a hike now. Tomorrow is trash day and I have garbage to sort.

I'm afraid I have to agree with Stinky.....what you've basically done is asked for her time, energy and knowledge....which she gives VERY freely to everyone and always has. But to ask for assistance....then blow it off for reasons that don't really make much sense....(my friend says.....).if your friend is so wonderful and knowledgable why are you having the problem in the first place? Why hasn't your friend solved it for you?

I used to work for a physician MANY years ago. He made a statement about this kind of thing that I have never forgotten. It was something along the line that people would actually PAY MONEY to come see him.....not to mention the time and energy spent at the doctor's offic or doing tests or whatever...and then proceed to completely blow off his advice.......or.....even worse.....only pick out what parts of it THEY wanted to hear and do instead following instructions that they themselves sought out......and THEN blame the doctor for their failures.

People really ARE amazing.

well.

being a cold beginner, and having less than 50% of control with what exactly gets done with the entire scene
in many ways my hands are tied

i come to the forum and post for your advice
which i have taken with respect
about what i wrote about take a hike
i was not pointing the statement at anyone
in particular, and not at you
it was my frustration in general
i don't argue with your advice

i propose it to my peers
i get told to take a hike with your ideas
then you get upset because
others are not 100% receptive.
I wish when i got your advice
the angel on my right and the devil on my left both agreed
but they didnt
i was upset that people in my sphere are not so accepting
that your advice was taken and swiped of the table
i suggest lift the pots, i hear, why, waste of time
i suggest repot... i hear "
why, silly waste, i grew plants twice that size in smaller pots"

i just sat aloud what stinky says, no one here likes it
they swipe it
then i tell stinky no one likes it and i look like an idiot
i am not arguing with you

please dont be so offended by me
my position in all this is a complete peon.
a gopher...

i type on the post for my own info
i type on the post, they laugh at me
and belittle you
please dont you belittle me too

jeez. how far off topic can i get

maybe the past 6 people at three grow shops i went to today
who all told me it was a waste of time to repot
are also ignorant fools like humble little me

but i bought some 7 gallon buckets anyway
and some happy frog
and i have pearlite,
and foam insulation to lift more pots

as for the tension on the post
and about not listening to advice asked for.
and about my arguing

i think these are all confusions and misconceptions
i do not need to reveal the details of my personal situation
i can go find another sick plant forum
but i don't

i respect you and your time and advice
sorry if i forgot to say THANKYOU

so as for the doctor thing. i guess i am doing what i can
some people think the curl is natural...

more than anything i will store this
in the files for future reference
even if this run get stuffed in a pack of zig zags
next time i will know before hand ...
so all your posing was not in vain

thanks again for your time
god bless...

ph run off is 6.7

Well composed and thought out post, thanks lethalrx!

I have been following this thread and I have to say, in the beginning I thought "Just listen to Stinky! She knows what's up!" and "What an idiot, just do it!"

Now I know there are others involved in this project. To them you must look like a new grower without experience suggesting things they haven't yet thought of themselves; but they have grown before so what you're saying cannot be right!

Am I right? :)

I would offer to do the repotting and lifting of the buckets myself if my friends were against doing it. Unless of course they were against me doing anything, then I would wonder why I was involved at all.

Lol....cm....I think of you as a perfect example of someone who went out and did what they told......and now has nice growing plants for it. I never once heard you say that you wouldn't do something or fuss or tell me a hundred reasons why you cant. You did it...from completely changing your nutes to dragging 15 gallons of RO water up your stairs. I'm honestly not trying to say that if you do a robot thing and just follow orders everything will be peachy......but I am saying that if you actively seek out someone's advice.....to dis it without even trying it is quite rude.....especially since lifting a pot off the cold ground is HARDLY asking someone to drag 15 gals of water upstairs.

I don't want to pat myself on the back too much, but do remember that the day after I dragged the 15 gal of water up three flights of stairs it all leaked into my neighbors closet!!

So I actually dragged 30 gal of water up to my room in 24 hours :D

I'm such a dumbass lol

All right, I'm glad to see that your runoff is in range. That's a relief.

You should be running a flower nutrient with virtually no nitrogen in it from here on out.
Don't forget to mix extra perlite in your fresh soil. A large part of the problems caused by a plant being root-bound is that the roots can't BREATHE. This is especially important when it is chilly in your grow area.

I guess this is simply an issue of too many cooks spoiling the soup.

yeah, to many cooks, who all tell me to take a hike
I cant even walk. LOL

I have introduced two small space heaters - SOLEUS M12
# Supports a better health environment; doesn't burn oxygen or stir up dust -
# Produces bio-energy heat that promotes skin, cell, and circulatory health

All pots are up on insulation squares.

I have taken 15 out of 5gal and put them in 7gal
I have taken 15 out of 4gal and put them in 5gal
I left the rest alone, which all have no signs of the claw...

since other's are reading and keeping tabs.
I did this all alone from my wheelchair,
so don't think i didn't put any effort in

new medium:
soil/soiless mix - roots organic
mixed with lots of pearlite

any plants with the claw' have been replanted
even before the re-pot
some plants were snapping out of the worst claw' symptoms
- after only two rounds of adjusted feeding
where round one was just water and
round two was half normal solution.
leaves did not miraculously uncurl,
but new growth seems stable, upward, uninhibited


I bought all this out of pocket for a crop that will be split
I heard,
'your wasting alot of money and supplies,
and for what, a few inches of root growth,
I re-potted anyway, i figure I should do my best to create the best possible root environment, regardless

another friend told me that the specific strain I am growing,
the one with the worst claw signs (Mr.nice)
I was told flat out -
"Mr nice don't like to much food
you have to feed it less than everything else"

so probably this was all from too much nutes / N
and of course the sub-par root environment / cold
i guess different strains are fussy about different things
just like people....

cant wait to have another problem
to get advice in the forum for
and then out of ignorance
ignore all the advice i gather.
also cant wait to smoke that zig-zag
that i cram my harvest into

You're gonna get a whole heck of a lot more than a zig zag out of the harvest, and the next crop, you will certainly avoid this whole mess.
Remember that in flower no strain, not even a heavy feeder, likes very much nitrogen, which is why bloom ferts contain only a tiny bit.
And just like people, plants are fussy about their feet being comfy.

Just wanted to let stinky that I am originally from MA.

Cool to see you holdin' it down all the way over there in mass.

I came all the way to CA to have the freedom to do all this.

Yeah. comfy feet. nice fluffy warm wool socks

none of those soggy muddy small rotten socks they were wearing before

I got everything new stockings for christmas.

God Bless. And to all a good night.

I will say.....I am quite impressed with all your hard work. I hope it makes the difference for you and your crop....good job taking the bull by the horns and making it happen. :thumbsup:

Merry Christmas!! :madnoel: :areindeer: