Ph is rising, can't seem to stabilize

For the past 36 hours now I have had my clones in my aeroponic system.

For the first 12-14 hours or so I did not have any meters yet and so the ph was around 8.6 and the ppm around 400.

I have been keeping the ph between 5.2-5.8 but in the past 6 hours it rose to 6.7!

I have been reading my eyes out of my skull it seems and I have found that my filter mounted on my tap might be contributing to a high ph due to the water softening process, so I have put a gallon of tap water plus 5ml / gal of liquid earth's vigor and grow.

The ppm right now is at 690 and the ph is at 5.6.

Is this highly volatile ph dangerous to my plants if I can keep it within 5.0-6.0?

I have been following MVP's thread about his grow and I am thinking if the ph does not stabilize as I flush using plain tap water I am going to switch to completely RO and 300 ppm of calmag. Does that sound about right?

It is hard to diagnose these issues by looking at the plants, because when I picked them up they already had some discoloration and wilting; but I have attached a couple pictures just in case someone might spot something I missed.

My girlfriend says I need to be patient with them, let them adapt to 400 hps and nutrients and whatnot but moving from flouros to hps shouldn't cause this constant rising in ph, should it?

Thanks for the comments :)

With fresh RW and hydroton, an initial pH rise is normal. Keep checking and lowering- it should stabilize within a few days. Try for 5.8 as a goal. 5.0 is a little low; a working range in the upper 5s is safer.

Thanks for the quick reply stinky; I've been watching my meter for about an hour and a half now and the ph has stayed at 5.6. Hopefully this is a sign of things to come :)

Would a guess that the clones are about 3 weeks old sound accurate? There are roots coming out most sides of the rockwool, about 1-2 inches in some places.

Today I am going to be working on setting up a screen of chicken wire about 10 inches from the planting medium for a SCRoG when the ph has stabilized.

For now, I need to figure out how to flush my system. 15 gallons is a couple too many for me to be hauling the damn thing down the hall to the sink to drain. I was thinking using my level indicator as a siphon and adding a gallon as it drains out. Whadda ya think?

You really need to do some more studying about pH, nutrients and mj growing in general.

To begin with, your pH target should be around 5.6-5.7, in that vicinity - 5.0 is way too acidic. Secondly, you have way too much light on those young plants. They need to adapt to the stronger light. I hope you have that hps a good distance away from your clones.

As far as your nutes go, right now you should be at about 1/4 strength, and I doubt that 690 ppm fits that criteria. I've never heard of using CalMag+ as a stand-alone nute. Why don't you make things simple and follow a tried and true regimen of nutrients instead of trying to reinvent the wheel on your first try?

Your clones are probably only about 10 days old judging from your description, and they need to adapt to life outside the cloner. If I had brought those clones home, I would have put them under flouros with r/o water and B1 + a tiny amount of Superthrive. After a couple days with the B1 I'd switch to 1/4 strength nutes for 3-4 days, then 1/2 strength for 4-5 days then up to full nutes, if the plants look strong enough to stand it. I'd give the plants at least one week under the flouros before switching to stronger light.

Your plants are going to be like young babies for a week or two and you need to treat them as such. Giving them a lot of light and a lot of nutrients at this point in time will do more to harm them than help them.

PC :smokin:

PharmaCan,

Thank you for your informative post. I will be sure to keep the ph around 5.6-5.7 from now on.

The HPS is right around 30 inches (76cm) from the planting medium and about 20-22 inches (53cm) from the top of the leaves. Does the light need to be raised? I can raise it another 6.5 inches (16.5cm) easily using the chain but I could get another 3-4 inches (9cm) if I needed to.

As far as nutes go, is 1/4 strength in reference to the recommended dosage on the bottles or is that referring to a total of about 1300, divided by 4?

My tap water has a base of around 420 ppm, so I have a total of around 270 ppm of nutes in it. According to Diagnosing Marijuana Cannabis Plant Abuse Problems Charts and Photos
water with over 200 ppm starting out is too hard (too much Ca) which can lead to a mg def. My starting water is 400+, so I need to lower it somehow. Referencing onlinepot.org again, it says that using 1/4 teaspoon of epsom salt per gallon of water will reduce the lockout. What do you think?

Again, I really appreciate the help :)

Your water is 400 ppm? Lose it and go with RO or distilled. PC is right.....you don't seem to have the idea very well of exactly what to do and so you are trying eveyrthing you can think of. Stop it.

You have regular tap water...plus CalMag.....WAY too much minerals etc in there if I am reading this correctly. Either way..(even if you don't) ..I'd dump EVERYTHING and start over. No wonder your plants look sickly.....I think you are burning them and that's why your ph won't stay down. As Stinky says...the issue could be your hydroton....but I have a feeling its much more your feeding "schedule" etc..


If you are interested I would try this.

RO water
CalMag....200
Grow nutes 200 (what kind are you using btw? A one part or three part)

and leave EVERYTHING else out of the equation. Everyone seems to think the answer is to add things....ANYTHING....instead of that perhaps they just have too MUCH junk in there already and it's causing toxicity problems. In THIS particular case I'm already POSITIVE there's junk in there.....what's the 400ppm of your water? Dirt? Sulpher? Who knows even what is IN your water so get rid of it.....and any problems it might be adding to your grow.

I'm guessing here....your info is sketchy and vague-ish....but that would certainly be my first guess in this situation.

Good Luck.

Revised: The Complete Guide To Sick Plants,pH and Pest Troubles - PlanetGanja.com

This is a very good troubleshooting forum as well.....definitely worth a look. ;)

Weedhound - Thanks for your reply :)

The water coming straight out of my tap measures in at 420 ppm. I do not have any calmag.

I will go to the hydro store today and pick up 15 gal of RO water and some CalMag. The nutes that came with my aeroponic's kit is Liquid Earth and it has three separate bottles; A vigor, bloom, and grow bottle.

I don't mean to be vague, let me know anything you don't understand and I will to my best to clear it up.

Thanks for tolerating my dumbass long enough to respond, the help is greatly appreciated. I am looking forward to becoming more adapt at growing in general, as this is my first ever grow. However, I am completely determined to see this crop out to finish, whether it takes twice as long with no smokeables in the end or not :)

cmasfca - Listen to Weedhound. She knows a lot more about hydro than I do.

As far as the lights go, I'd get them up as high as you can. I've never taken fresh clones and put them under an hps, so I don't know for sure. Just don't cook them! Once you get your nute problems resolved, the plants ill start to grow, then they'll start to grow rapidly. When the new growth starts, You can lower the lights a little at a time - just watch how they react.

PC :smokin:

CM...I'm sorry if I came off rude.....I'm an old curmedgeon...didn't mean to be a crab. :)

I think that is definitely your best bet here. That 420ppm in your tap water....just plain scares me. That stuff could be ANYTHING in there.....we don't want it clogging up your grow and for all we know WHATEVER it is it could be locking out some of your needed minerals etc...

Stinky's point about hydroton is also something not to be taken lightly. I had issues with it as well and you have to watch your ph very carefully until it stabilizes. Interestingly though, only some people seem to have this problem with it.....I had horrible problems and gave the stuff to my friend (the rest of the bag..unused) which she turned around and used with absolutely NO ph issues at all.....EVER from the VERY same bag!!!

I'm afraid I'm not familiar with the Earth Juice nutes so cannot really give you a starting point for them. I use Botanicare ProGrow (a one part grow nute) so you may want to ask your hydro guy what is a good number to start with. Some of these 3 parts nutes are measured out differently....which is why i hesitate to tell you to take a 3 part nute to "200ppms". I just don't know enough about them I'm afraid to give you precise directions on their use. Perhaps someone else here uses them......and will know.

PS....Good luck. You're not too far off.....but are making things more complicated than they have to be...hydro is pretty self sufficient if you have all the working parts together correctly. That's one of the reasons I like the one part nutes....anything that's easier and more convenient works for me. :D You'll get there.....don't worry. :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cmasfca

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I will go to the hydro store today and pick up 15 gal of RO water and some CalMag. The nutes that came with my aeroponic's kit is Liquid Earth and it has three separate bottles; A vigor, bloom, and grow bottle.

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You buy RO water at the grocery store. You fill your own bottles from one of those machines outside the store. It costs about $.25/gallon.

BTW - What light schedule are you on?

PC :smokin:

PharmaCan - I will take your advice and pay close heed to Weedhound's words, although I already have been ;)

I just got off the phone with my local Hydro shop and said that I need to get the chloramine(sp?) out of my water and the best way to do that is to flush my reservoir with R/O, just like you guys said! He suggested going 50/50 tap water and r/o, but when asked further he did say 100% RO with CalMag would be better, but more work.

I am going to the RO store today and getting 20 gal and flushing my entire reservoir with it. I then plan to follow the formula outlined at
The Cannabis Cultivation GrowFAQ - The Internet Hub for Marijuana Cultivation - MisterIto's chemical nutrient formula
How does that look? I am unexperienced, but it looks like something I could follow using different brands for the same function.

Thanks for helping the new guy :):hippy:

HA ha sounds like your man is on the ball.....and is used to folks wanting the easiest way to do things....cm that's probably why we're all crabs around here.....we aren't used to people like you willing to go whole hog....good for you. :thumbsup: I would pick your hydro-man's brain while you are there.....my hydro guy literally LED me through my first grow....I'll never be able to repay all that he taught me (and still does teach me......)

I don't really understand that schedule you've got there...but seriously I don't have to in order for you to use it......if you understand how it works then GO FOR IT I say!!! :thumbsup:

PharmaCan - I was on a 24 hour cycle for the first 24 hours after I planted the clones. After the first 24 hour cycle I put it on 18/6.

Weedhound - I am going to pick up some of that Botonicare Progrow today. Do I also need to pick up CalMag? Or does the Progrow include those minerals?

My Planned Schedule If I Need To Add CalMag:
0 ppm RO water 15 gal
200 ppm CalMag
200 ppm Botonicare ProGrow

My Planned Schedule If I Do Not Need To Add CalMag:
0 ppm RO water 15 gal
400 ppm Botonicare Progrow

Do these schedules look alright until I am ready to flower?

Would it be better to run these schedules for a week, then increase the ppm more, and if so, how much should I raise the ppm to?

I am having a hard time finding something that will give me a good range of ppms during veg stage and flower stage and flush stage. Anyone have something like that bookmarked?

Weedhound - No, you didn't come off rude; I just realized I was being a dumbass and had to acknowledge it :D

My ph in the last 4 hours has only risen .1, so I am very happy about that. Maybe the hydroton was affecting the ph, at least a little bit.

All this talk about hydroponics being self sufficient; I was starting to feel like I was caring for a baby in intensive care. Now I realize I was giving them shit to eat, I mean even I don't drink my tap water. You just...don't around here!

/slaps self

Well, hopefully my girls will forgive me :(

Thanks guys

Actually when your plants are sick I think it IS like that in hydro....they can go very fast....crash and burn quicker than soil and its amazing how quick you SEE the changes in them.

I love my botanicare nutes.....and they are organic (mostly.....) If you buy some Pro Grow, RO water and CalMag you will be set......anything ele will be extra for your plants and we don't want that right now.

So...CalMAg....200ppm Pro Grow....200PPM.....watch ph like a HAWK....its not allowed to be out of 5.6-6.1 range. If you see improvement in the net 4-5 days then start upping things. I usually up things once a week by 200ppm (next week 300ppm CalMag and 300ppm Pro Grow...etc) but you could probably do smaller amounts faster if they look happy (add 100ppm every 3 days... instead of 200pm once a week.)

The biggest thing that was pounded into my head by my hydro guy is the CalMag and how important it is to use if you are using RO or distilled water. His schedule is 50% of your TOTAL ppms (using RO water) should be CalMag in veg.... R0 water.... 1/2 Cal Mag, 1/2 Grow nutes. Stick with this ratio.....don't raise your numbers too high too fast and keep your ph under control. I think if you do will have some happy plants growing before too long. ;)

Perfect Weedhound!

This answers all of my questions and I am impatiently waiting for my girlfriend to get back from class with my car so we can go get some r/o water, calmag, and progrow. We did get a hanna combo meter that has probes that are always in the res giving readings so that will be great for watching them the next couple of days. That may be the only reason my girls are still alive, is that I have watched the ph rise by 1.2 over 6 hours! So I added the ph down, I've used a ton of that already and I onlly got it yesterday!

Anyways, I'm definitely medicated to the point where I need to concentrate on something unimportant. Here I come xbox!

I will be watching for replies on my laptop, so don't be shy :)

If no one has any other comments I will respond after I have r/o, 200 ppm CalMag and 200 Botanicare ProGrow in my reservoir with my airstone, temp gauge, ph probe, and tds sensor; But NOTHING ELSE!!! :D

You GO CM!!!! :thumbsup: :stoned:

Update!

I just finished flushing the system with R/O water and after filling my res with 15 gal the total ppm was around 20, which is definitely within the range I want.

I then did the math to find out how much CalMag I needed for 15 gal to make 200 ppm and it came out to be .625 cups. After filling one half cup almost all the way and putting it in the res, my ppm jumped to 500! Fuck. So I added in 30 ppm of Botanicare ProGrow by doing little by little (which is what I should have done with the CalMag!!) I'm such a dumbass :( I then lowered the ph to 5.6 and am not letting it go above 5.9. I need much less ph down now to have an effect; I'm glad I did 3 drops at a time.

Did I just screw myself over AGAIN by putting too much CalMag into the reservoir? If needed I could go get another five gallons of R/O water from the store down the street and dilute the solution.

So, yell at my dipshit self, call me names, but please, what would you guys (and gals!) have me do?

THANKS

I hate to tell you this....but you should change it. 500 is way too much for seedlings....
What was the total number you ended up with?

Here's what I would do......

you have 500 CalMag.....Add 500 Pro grow....dilute entire thing down to 400 ppm....save the rest for a few days to add later.....it will stay good for a couple days....but not too long after that.

The ratios are very important here.

Ps...if it's easier to go to the nearest 7-11 and get distilled water that will work fine too.

ROFLMAO - Look at the bright side. You now know much more about mixing nutes than you did earlier today.

...damn, you put almost 1/4 bottle of calmag in there. That's just too funny.

OK - enough laughing at your expense.

PC :smokin:

So I am about to go pick up 5 more gallons of R/O water and then drain 5 gallons from my res, then pour the straight R/O water in there and see how much it dilutes. From there I will balance the ph and then add a bit more nutes, like 50-100 ppm.

Sound good?

EDIT: God, I can't stop laughing at myself. My girlfriend is never going to let this down. I need some medicine, feel a migraine coming on.:stoned:

Sounds good to me as long as you end up with 50/50 mix of each....equalling about 400 (i wouldn't go above that for now..) Your plants will thank you for being so dedicated....no joke.....like PC said....here's one you won't do again.....:D

Ps....ALWAYS balance ph last.....last thing is ph....mix all your nutes first....then adjust ph right before you add it to your rez.
;)

Weedhound - Thanks for the replies, the local water store is closer than the local 711, so it's all good :) I am going to do as you said and add in 500 ppm of ProGrow, then dilute it down to 400 total. After that I will ph adjust. Finally, I am going to foilar feed with some Pure Blend Pro Grow at 7ml/gal.

How does this sound? I hope my girls will appreciate the work I've been putting into this, although it's all my fault for any yield sufferings :P

ha ha....I think once you start seeing some growth from those puppies you'll forget all about this day and be as proud as punch. :D

My main reason for loving hydro is that it is SO consistent that you can practically set your clock by it. Watch ph, watch nute numbers, etc....your plants will start growing like gangbusters...:thumbsup:

You have plenty of time to get things dialed in and I seriously doubt issues now ....if taken care of ....will have an effect on the plant's yield later.....but I honestly know very little about clones so I could be wrong there.

Good news!

ppm is down to 400, 200 ppm of calmag and 200 ppm of progrow!

ph was just lowered to 5.5 from 5.8.

I am super medicated and just had the police knock on my dooor about a noise complaint. He thought we were having a party; We were just playing Rockband on the Xbox! haha soo Anyways I am going to bed and i just switched the light starting the 6 hours of sleep.

G'night all!

Sounds good.....except the police part.....(hey....maybe they grow and would have some advice...:D)

update when you can so we can keep an eye on how they are doing. ;)

Good morning all, I woke up and immediately checked the my ph meter and it was at 6.1, so I lowered it down to 5.5. The ph is still 400 with canopy temps of 75 degrees and humidity at 45%. If you think the girls would be showing signs of improving already I will take a quick picture for you guys, otherwise I'll wait until at least tomorrow to compare. Patience is a virtue, right? haha

Would it be worth it to set an alarm every two or three hours during the night so I can keep the ph right around 5.5?

if you keep your ph between 5.6-6.2 (5.5 is ok) then no worries. Anything in that range is good for you plants. I would give them a good 24 hours with correct ph (so far...you have correct ph :thumbsup:) and then you should start to see some changes.. We loves pics so please.....slap them up here. :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cmasfca

Would it be worth it to set an alarm every two or three hours during the night so I can keep the ph right around 5.5?

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Now that's dedication!! :D

PC :smokin:

Pc...you're a clone man. How much damage later will this kind of thing cause the clones?

Haha thanks for the comment PC; I just want my plants to have every opportunity to excel :)

I am going to install a screen today about 10 inches above the medium, I'll post a picture of it when I finish.

I am glad you guys enjoy pictures, I enjoy taking them :)

They seem somewhat less....wilted looking from the photo you posted yesterday. Opinions anyone?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Weedhound

Pc...you're a clone man. How much damage later will this kind of thing cause the clones?

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Once upon a time I nute burned a batch of clones. I wanted to see what they would tolerate so, instead of my usual 1/4 strength for the first feeding, I used 1/2 strength. It burned the clones pretty badly but, after a flush, the plants resumed normal growth. The burned foliage never did recover completely, but the new growth was fine and soon the old, damaged growth was incidental. It should be noted that I had no pH issues during this time, so I was only dealing with the nute problem.

If the plants take off and resume normal growth, they should be ok. But, if the roots or stem have been damaged, you're better off to start over. As the plant resumes growth, you can look at it and see if it is growing properly or not.

PC :smokin:

Since i am going to be trying cloning in the not too distant future....what kind of damage to the roots and stem are you talking about? Aside from physically breaking or crushing them of course....

cmasfca - In the first pic - cut that dead leaf off. It looks ugly.

Pic 3 - That's physical damage to the leaf. Get over it. :D

Pic 4 - See all that new growth coming out of your stem? That is what you want to watch to know how well your plant will grow. That is your future plant - if it continues to flourish, your plants will be ok.

PC :smokin:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Weedhound

Since i am going to be trying cloning in the not too distant future....what kind of damage to the roots and stem are you talking about? Aside from physically breaking or crushing them of course....

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When you damage the leaves on a clone, they tend to be replaced rather than repaired. Although you need the existing leaves to support life, it is the new growth that should be the main focus of your attention. In his respect, you need the original leaves for a while, but, if they continue to die off, it's no big deal as long as they are being replaced with new growth. With that in mind, since we already know that our original leaves are essentially goners, it is the rest of the plant (the roots and stems) that must remain undamaged if the plant is to survive. If you can see your roots, an easy task for a dro, but somewhat problematic for a dirt farmer, they'll look shriveled and stringy. I have no idea what could happen to the stem, other than physical damage, but it seems logical that a total systems failure would also involve the stem in some form or fashion. BTW - being able to see the roots is a big plus. That's one reason I recommend using graduated sizes for pots. If you have to, it's pretty easy to give that baby a whack on the butt and pop it out of the pot so you can see the roots.

Dawg - When you get ready to clone, start a thread and we can all hold your hand and walk you thru it. :thumbsup:

PC :smokin:

Oh like you people will be able to escape.....You can see i'm great when there's a problem.:D

So my girls are doing great! Tomorrow morning I am going to take pictures for you guys of the new growth. I've only had to lower the ph twice today, and the ppms have risen by 10, now sitting at 410.

When do you think I should change the water? The ppms are pretty much stagnant, and the ph is all but stable.

So, what do I do now? Should I add some plain R/O water to dilute the ppms down to 400? Maybe all I need to do now is monitor the ph and in a couple days do a complete res flush. What do you guys and girls think?

To bed for me; My girlfriend cleaned our bong and hookah so I am checking out for the night:stoned:. BUT not before I lower the ph to 5.5 :D

EDIT: I just thought of another question, sorry! How should I add ph down and nutes to my res? I have been adding the nutes directly into the res and waiting a minute or two to see the change. Same thing with ph down as well. Is this bad? Good? Ugly? Thanks!