Magnesium (Mg) deficiency? Pics

As best as I can tell from checking the two links below, one of my mothers to be has an Mg deficiency. The leaves feel hard and brittle. The yellowing, which turns brown starts at the tip mostly, but also the outer edges. I doubt it matters, but this is the same plant that is in with the shrooms in this post: http://boards.cannabis.com/plant-pro...ooms-weed.html. It starts in the older leaves, and eventually the bottom ones turn completely brown. There is interveinal chlorosis, and it's growing really, really slow.

The two places I checked are here:
Grow Marijuana FAQ, Cannabis cultivation - marijuana growing tips & photos

and here:
114 Photos of Mineral Deficiencies in Plants (~ 1 meg) for Visual Diagnosis

This last one is really cool. Less people know about it, but it may be more helpful. Just use your browser's search feature to search the page for individual minerals, like say magnesium, and you get between 10 and 25 examples (of stuff other than pot) of that deficiency or surplus. I suggest people bookmark both links, and maybe even make them available offline incase they ever go away.

I really don't want to lose this mother. Please help.

I recently had a Willie Nelson do that on me ... whether I diagnosed it correctly, or not, I don't know ... I treated it like a nitrogen overdose, and flushed the hell out of her ... she recovered quite a bit, but it took the whole last month of flowering to do so ... good luck, I don't think that is a magnesium problem, though ... :smokin:

only the one plant did that, the others were fine, and happened virtually overnite ... I suspected, perhaps I didn't have my nutes mixed well enough, and it got a 'hot dose' ... that is only speculation, though ... :smokin:

do you spray your plants? foliar feed?

I believe you have a ph lockout, magnesium, calcium & more
no matter whats locked out its why.

complete a soil runoff PH test.......
with PH corrected water (6.5-6.8PH ) pour enough water in the pots so the water runs out the bottom of the pot ...collect & test the PH of this runoff water....post both the watering going in the pots and the runoff ph

I don't foliar feed. The soil run off if 6.7. The water going in is 6.8. Should I foliar feed until she gets back on track? If so, with what exactly?

I don't know exactly what happened to my single plant, but after flushing, I just gave her plain water, and she did start recovering shortly before finishing ... never had one do that before, or since ... :smokin:

What are those mottled track-looking things on the leaves?
I can't really tell from those pics but at first glance I thought EXTREME thrip infestation. That would also cause dehydration damage to your leaves.
A mist of neem oil will help keep them from losing any more moisture, and slow the thrips.
Can you get better pics of the leaf surface though to make a diagnosis?

Ok, hold on for more pics. I'll see what I can do. I got macro, but it aint the best.

Image reaper, I'm leaning toward doing just what you did. I think I'll flush, then give her just water for a couple weeks, then real weak nutes to start. I suppose it's possible that she could be getting nute burn. I have kinda been giving them a lot of food, but other varieties in identical conditions are thriving nicely. Perhaps it's a PH lockout as Ganja suggests. (I assume this is the same thing as nutrient lockout.) Looks more like burn though. Looks even more like Mg deficiency if you try to find it in the two links I posted above.

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Originally Posted by stinkyattic

What are those mottled track-looking things on the leaves?

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I'm certainly not an expert, but from reading those two problem charts above I'd say it's interveinal chlorosis. Not even exactly sure what that is, but it looks kinda like the examples.

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Originally Posted by stinkyattic

I can't really tell from those pics but at first glance I thought EXTREME thrip infestation. That would also cause dehydration damage to your leaves.

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Dehydration damage to the leaves is a good way of describing how they feel. How can this happen if the plant is being watered properly? Does lockout cause brittle leaves (never had it before)? I am fairly certain the problem is not an extreme thrip infestation, or even a small one. I have never had thrips, and I searched the plant and soil for them with a magnifying glass and didn't see any, or anything else that was moving. Also other mothers are touching the container that the problem plant is in, and they have no thrips.

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Originally Posted by stinkyattic

A mist of neem oil will help keep them from losing any more moisture, and slow the thrips.

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I stopped using neem oil about three years ago, but I think I have some around here under one of the piles of crap. But you're saying it would be benificial to dig it out, even though I argueably have no thrips? I've never heard of neem oil inhibiting moisture loss, but again, I'm no expert. How about foliar feeding; does that have about the same effect, only with nutrients?

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Originally Posted by stinkyattic

Can you get better pics of the leaf surface though to make a diagnosis?

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Absolutely, here you go. I appreciate you helping me very much. I would be happy to help you help me. This as close as my macro will get me. And you are probably already aware of this, but unless you have a huge screen you are not seeing my pictures at full size, and they may be enlarged in your browser.

Well you've got me STUMPED.
That's not thrip damage. But it also isn't interveinal chlorosis in any form I've seen it before- it looks FAR too mottled. Yes, there is some chlorotic shit going on there but the pattern is very strange.
Neem oil, or BANG!, or Wilt-Pruf, all create physical barriers on the leaf surface and prevent moisture loss. Bang! was designed to be ued sort of as a band-aid after a mite infestation, think of that clear 'second skin' bandage they use on road rash and other abrasions. With any of these, apply VERY lightly, allow to dry, monitor for signs of leaf darkening (indicating suffocation), and reapply lightly if you think you still need more. The leaves should be just slightly glossier than when you began.
Since there almost certainly IS a burn going on, a good flush with pH adjusted water, finishing with 1/4 strength grow fert at pH 6.7, is a good idea. Repotting into a larger pot, if you don't have that gallon of soil per foot of plant, will also help stabilize your soil- soil chemistry gets crazy fast when you simply don't have the VOLUME to support that rootball.
This probably wasn't much help... but... ?? Hopefully Rhizome will cruise by this thread- if there's anyone who has 'seen it all', lol, it's him.

Yes Stinky that does help some. I will try the things you reccomend. I don't think it is root bound though, since it's about a 3 gallon container and the plant is less than one foot tall. However the soil is pretty old so maybe it is a good idea to transplant anyway. Would you reccomend transplanting after I have the situation more under control, or just do everything at once?

OP- when you say the soil is "old", what do you mean? Has it been previously used?
If so, what was the previous cultivar?

Do you, or does anybody else in the dwelling, smoke tobacco?

Would it be possible to get a shot of the underside of an effected leaf?

Have you had any whitefly or aphid issues?

How quickly is this progressing? Days, weeks,...?

Are there any cankers where petitole meets meristem?

How old is this mom? When was the last time she was trimmed? Did you take cuts of any of your other moms at the same time?

I would quarantine that plant.

rhizome, thanks for responding.

OP- when you say the soil is "old", what do you mean? Has it been previously used? If so, what was the previous cultivar? It was not previously used. It just seems old and crusty. The perlite on top is turning brown. 2 plants shared this container, but one was pulled after 2 months because it turned out to be male. That was maybe a year ago. It's probably fine; it's just the hydro farmer in me wanting everthing to be changed out occaisionally.

Do you, or does anybody else in the dwelling, smoke tobacco? No, and it's a new home.

Have you had any whitefly or aphid issues? No, Never.

How quickly is this progressing? Days, weeks,...? More like weeks. Notice the top growth doesn't have it, but it is all twisted for weeks after emerging. It seems like maybe 3 weeks after emerging the leaves start getting mottled, and die a month or so after that, but they are brittle from the start. This plant has always grown reeeal slow.

Are there any cankers where petitole meets meristem? No, I tried to pry back the thick underbrush for a photo of this (first photo).

How old is this mom? A year plus a little, maybe 2 or 3 months. It's been doing this for several months, but not so bad as of recent.

When was the last time she was trimmed? Never, except for completly brown leaves. Never revegged either.

I would quarantine that plant. Even if it's not pest related?

Would it be possible to get a shot of the underside of an effected leaf? Yes, quite possible. Except for the first one, all photos are of the underside of leaves. The second one is a side by side of two leaves, one of which doesn't look nearly as bad from underneith, but looks about the same on top. Weird, huh? The leaf on the right is from about 4 inches from the top, and the left one is about 1.5 inches lower. The last picture is of a leaf in it's last stages, just before turning completely brown.

I would almost say it could be a Zinc deficiency. Zinc deficiency looks like Mg but has the brown tips like you do.

I asked a question but I type too slow so I'll just edit out since it's covered above.

PC :smokin:

Both Zinc and Mg def show up as very regular striping.
That is neither.

Rhizome is hinting at the possibility of a virus spread by an insect vector- sounds like he was thinking TMV- hm. Quarantine is certainly a good idea.

I'd repot now personally. Over a year, the plant might enjoy some more room to spread out, adn you can see how much root density you have while you're at it- have you seen the threads on bonsai mums? Very neat info for keeping a mother for a long period of time.

why not clone and start anew? I`ve one strain for 10 yrs now and I clone to clone. no mom. seed banks and lrg grows use this method. I've 7 strains at present and am starting 2 more. how would i keep 9 moms? no, the genetics aren't screwing up. I'ld say the older they get, the stronger and faster they grow.

perpetual grow w/no moms. easy as cheese.

A virus? Looks like the entire plant is involved...so if it WERE a virus (did I read that right?) is the entire plant "contagious?" How are you supposed to diagnose a virus in a plant??? :confused:

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Originally Posted by PharmaCan

I asked a question but I type too slow so I'll just edit out since it's covered above.

PC :smokin:

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Uh, I'm not sure what you mean here. I certainly didn't mean to igonore you. I appreciate all input.

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Originally Posted by stinkyattic

have you seen the threads on bonsai mums? Very neat info for keeping a mother for a long period of time.

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Yes I've read threads and articles. I know I am not doing it right at this time; I'm just letting them grow and taking cuttings as needed. I am redoing my grow area (again) and plan to start bonsaing properly in the near future.

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Originally Posted by 420freedme

why not clone and start anew?

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Because I don't like taking cuttings from an unhealthy plant. Not only will this stress the mom, which I really don't want to take a chance on losing, but the clones will start off unhealthy, if they even decide to root at all. That gives me an idea though. I might take a couple cuttings and keep them in the fridge just in case something goes wrong with trying to rehabilitate the mom.

OK- you gave negative reponses on risk factor stuff, which greatly reduces the likelihood of viral infection.

The mushroom thing makes me think that it's soil-related. I'd definately re-pot, if only to get a look/smell of the rootzone. By the time that you're actually seeing mushrooms, you've got a whole sh*tload of mycelia in the media. May be a little wet, too...
See what ya see-and what ya smell.

You might want to start using a 'zyme product, if you're going to keep moms for a long time. Helps cleanup the detritus that builds up as part of normal growth.

So re-pot it, dry things out some, see what ya see...

I would keep it quarantined, though, and sterilize whatever tools you use, wash your hands,etc... If nothing else, you've got a plant with a compromised immune system- so even if this isn't a contagious disease, one of the inevitable secondaries might be.

Sorry I can't be more specific- but I do think that you have a chance. The symptoms sure do sound like mosaic- if you'd told me that the soil had previously been used for cucumbers, or that you had just had an aphid problem- then I would have told you to dispose of it quickly, and with extreme prejudice.

A big thanks to everyone who has responded so far, and in advance to any possible further advice.

I have learned a lot from this thread, especially from looking up some of the words in rhizome's replies. It seems like nobody has seen anything quite like it before, and can't give me specifics. (Come to think of it, I didn't see anything excatly like it in either of the problem charts i linked above.) Please do not worry in the least about this, since you have given me many good ideas and pieces of advice, as well as pieces of the puzzle, which I will take to heart. I appreciate it very much.

I will look into a 'zyme product. To aid in my product search, does "zyme" mean "enzyme"? Seems so. If so, come on rhizome, it's only one more key stroke to spell the whole word. (I jest.) I looked up zyme in an encyclopedia, and it said it was an obsolete medical term formerly applied to the class of acute infectious maladies. Zymotic disease - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I will zyme, anti-wilt, repot, flush, quaranteen, ventilate, not necessarily in that order. I would prefer not to go to a bigger container, since that one is fairly big already. Do you think it would hurt much to cut off some root if it appears to need that? I know this is how you bonsai, but those bonsai plants are presumed to be healthy, and I don't want to overstress the plant to the point of possible nonreturn.

OH, I gotta ask about the tabacco smoking. Does that inhibit pests, viruses, and/or diseases, or promote them? In general why did you ask that question. I know several people swear by using tabacco juice to repell pests.

Unless pride goeth before a fall, I am proud to have introduced something to this board that people have not heard of before.
:question: :dance: :detective1:

'zyme = commercial enzyme product (eg hygrozyme, cannazyme,sensizyme) that will hasten the decomposition of cellulosic tissue in the media. I've fallen into the habit of referring to that whole class of products as " 'zymes"- they're all pretty similar in action. As I remember, Sensizyme claims 80 or so specific enzymes in their product, or 57 herbs and spices, or some-such. Yadda Yadda Yadda.

Over the course of time, some root mortality is normal and healthy. Out in the world, this isn't too much of a problem- but any digestive process ( well, not any...but let's not go there) that stalls for whatever reason results in the buildup of intermediary metabolites, which may or may not be problematic.

It's not so much tobacco smoke that's a vector for TVM as tobacco handling and partially burnt tobbacco particles which become airborne- but where there's smokers, there's smokes. Fire, luckily, is somewhat effective against mosaic.

What concerns me is that you seem to be saying that this plant has never thrived- classic MV. Pokey pokey pokey and then all of the sudden dead. But there are a lot of things that can do this- metal toxicities, fungal wilts.

If this is commercial seed or cutting, Ya might want to think about just replacing it- general "Failure to thrive" is very difficult to diagnose.

Basically you've got, as possibilities

-Pathogen ( Infective diseases are rarely treated, it is almost always more practical to destroy the host)
-Genetic disorder ( non-pathogenic - ie bad RNA from a parent that is not viral)
-Incompatible environmental conditions ( which means you can't actually grow it, anyway...)
-Media Problems

As we've got no more specific diagnosis, and only one possibility is treatable, it makes sense to treat for that possibility and hope for response. Only way to play the hand- everything else is a fold.

At the same time, you've got a plant which is more likely to harbor pathogens, primary or secondary, as it's immune system is comprimised. Unhealthy plants, like unhealthy people, get sick easier. AIDS doesn't kill- the secondaries do. End result is the same.

So you want to put it aside, to protect the rest of your plants, until you see a good response to a media change.

Serious question.....is there a way to diagnose a virus in a plant?

Sure- have a tissue sample tested.

Other than that, you're going w/ symptomology.

A biopsy.....lol, guess they don't get antibodies....:cool:

I've heard manganese deficiencies can cause blotchy leaves. I like stinky's idea of wilt-proofing your leaves.

As for "intravenial chlorosis", it's all latin roots, ie, intra = between, venial = veins, chloro = green, osis=condition or malady. So it means something like "problem with the greenness between the veins." Just an interesting fact. :D