Soldiers lives wasted...

Bear with me now, I'm sure there's some righties who are already foaming at the mouth from the title...

I'm in the US. We've got a pretty great country with some rather shitty leadership at the moment. Nothing exceptionally new there I suppose.

I even debated entering the military, but immediately dismissed that idea when the current leadership took power and installed the patriot act, effectively destroying the constitution and the very freedoms I'd be swearing to defend.

Long story short, I respect the military, I respect the men and women who compose it. But honestly, I feel like their entire mission is pointless. Not only ineffective, but fundamentally misguided. I don't believe that the war on terror can be fought by throwing more firepower at the problem.
We're attempting to fight tomorrow's war with our grandfather's tactics, and that's why we're failing. Fight smarter, not harder.

We're killing plenty of people, no argument there, but for all of the bodycount we're creating we seem to be having little success in creating stability.

Is there an end to this tunnel? Is this war win-able? Is it worth all the lives we're taking and losing?

Just curious for thoughts and perspectives...

Also, just as advances in battlefield medicine have boosted survival rates among the wounded, better prosthetics and treatment regimens have improved amputees' ability to regain mobility.

So far, the Army has treated nearly 600 service members who have come back from Iraq or Afghanistan without an arm, leg, hand or foot. Thirty-one have gone back to active duty, and no one who asked to remain in the service has been discharged, Arata said
Amputee Soldiers Return to Active Duty - The Huffington Post

I guess there are some that don't feel the same as you do.....

Have a good one!:s4:

We the People will win when we overthrow this government, get rid of the duel-citizenship, closed the border. and make this country back into what our forefather wanted it to be.....they said we can have a free republic IF WE CAN KEEP IT, thems fighting word now!..

DUDE! Im am MAD! i just cant stand this government, its treason is beyond anything the world has seen....we may have to ask CANADA to help us on this one.....

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Originally Posted by eg420ne

and make this country back into what our forefather wanted it to be...

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Our "forefathers" were Freemasons who were direct decendants of the Knights Templar.........what was that agenda again. LMAO!

Have a good one!:jointsmile:

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Originally Posted by Psycho4Bud

what was that agenda again. LMAO!

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Freedom and Liberty were two of the words they used for it I believe...

If you don't have anything to contribute at all you could just stand quietly in the corner Psycho... You just seem to be sidestepping the point instead of engaging any of them. And sometimes you have an intimidating presense when you threaten people you don't agree with...

so just chill.

Soo what are you saying is the the mason made the USA to become the worlds police....hey my dad and my grandpa and his PA, were mason so i dont get what u are saying... LOL

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Originally Posted by Polymirize

Freedom and Liberty were two of the words they used for it I believe...

If you don't have anything to contribute at all you could just stand quietly in the corner Psycho... You just seem to be sidestepping the point instead of engaging any of them. And sometimes you have an intimidating presense when you threaten people you don't agree with...

so just chill.

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Who did I threaten with that post? Explain

Have a good one!:jointsmile:

i feel threaten by your laugh;)

I have to agree that this war is pointless to the average citizen and soldiers that are paying the ultimate price. The only ones this war makes sense to are the elites, the captains of Industry, the oil Barrons and the politicos that benefit from their contributions, If the average American can not see this, we are doomed to one world order and that personal camera in your bedroom to let the sickos in DC watch you screw your mate. You think I'm kidding?

I agree with you on your respect for the military, Poly and others. They're brave heroes, but they've been sent on a fool's mission. Don't misunderstand me here. The soldiers are not the fools. Their commander in chief is. Shrub's actions have increasingly made the world stage more unstable and the situation in Iraq is now all the more perilous for our heroic kids. That country cannot begin to step up to the plate and keep itself under any type of order, and we cannot continue to spend billions per day and dozens of lives per week to hand-hold them.

I take comfort in the fact that even conservative Republicans are now increasingly realizing we're in a desperately hopeless, futile sinkhole over there. Even the arch-rights are beginning to realize that if they continue to support these war efforts on their current trajectory, they're about to be swept away in the election tsunami that's coming in 2008.

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Originally Posted by Dave Byrd

I agree with you on your respect for the military, Poly and others. They're brave heroes, but they've been sent on a fool's mission. Don't misunderstand me here. The soldiers are not the fools. Their commander in chief is. Shrub's actions have increasingly made the world stage more unstable and the situation in Iraq is now all the more perilous for our heroic kids. That country cannot begin to step up to the plate and keep itself under any type of order, and we cannot continue to spend billions per day and dozens of lives per week to hand-hold them.

I take comfort in the fact that even conservative Republicans are now increasingly realizing we're in a desperately hopeless, futile sinkhole over there. Even the arch-rights are beginning to realize that if they continue to support these war efforts on their current trajectory, they're about to be swept away in the election tsunami that's coming in 2008.

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.................I'm sure hopin you're right about this.

LOL...a lil' dedication for both of ya........

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S7INEy-yoeg[/YOUTUBE]

Have a good one!:s4:

Sometimes it seems to me that war is an insane "potlatch" held by nations where, in the name of pride and arrogance, they throw away the lives of their people and the resources needed to make a good life for the people.

"potlatch"- Most of you aren't anthropology buffs, so here's a brief definition. Some of the Northwestern Indians would hold this big party and give away or destroy blankets, jewelry, carvings and other items of importance. The person giving away/destroying the goods gained great status. I know it sounds kind of nuts, but so is war.

Our nation is throwing away the lives of our people. Money (your taxes) is being blown up in the form of bombs. Each of those bombs costs thousands to millions of dollars each. What could be done with that money? Education? Health care? Road repair? Look around- what needs fixing? But here we are throwing money down a rat hole, a bottomless pit. The Middle East has been a mess since before the Crusades. I think it will remain a mess whether we "stay the course" or "cut (our losses) and run".

Remember MASH? I was in kindergarten when Korea was our "big war". I'll be 60 this month. We are STILL THERE! 55 years. No end in sight. I wonder- will your grandkids serve in Iraq? Will it be any more peaceful then? - Granny :hippy:

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Originally Posted by Psycho4Bud

LOL...a lil' dedication for both of ya........

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That doesn't even make any sense. Why do you have a youtube of a crappy beatles song with random shots of some vaguely asian looking guy editted into the stills?

This makes about as much sense as anything you've said so far I suppose

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Originally Posted by Polymirize

That doesn't even make any sense. Why do you have a youtube of a crappy beatles song with random shots of some vaguely asian looking guy editted into the stills?

This makes about as much sense as anything you've said so far I suppose

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If you have a major problem send me an e-mail. I know where this recent crap is coming from and it's not appreciated.

Have a good one!:jointsmile:

I think it's time for some folks to step back, roll a fattie, and let this one rest if it's starting to engender hard feelings. Poly, that response of yours above was uncharacteristiic-sounding.

I agree with my husband on this war. Not sure we could live together if we didn't. But I also know there are folks who feel just as strongly in the opposite direction. My fellow mod is one of them.

Can y'all agree to disagree with civility and not let this escalate any further?

i can see how some of you are getting a little disillusioned with the war, but people forget so quickly that we were attacked. this generation has 9/11. i sure knew where i was when it happened, just like so many senior citizens remember where they were on december 7th. just because we were attacked by a radical group of cowards instead of the Japanese doesn't mean we're on a fools mission. i'm sure some of you must think I'm crazy thinking that this war is about 9/11. the bottom line is when you're the big dog on the block you're going to get challenged and you better be damn good and ready to defend yourself while at the top. i know i sure wouldnt want to be in Bush's position, he's in an unwinnable situation(not with the war but with the public). sure we could 'cut or losses' and pull out, but what kind of a message would that send to the hajis? 'hey just put some bombs on the side of the road, they sure don't like that' if we turn tail and run the next thing you know there will be hajis putting bombs on interstate 80. i don't know about the rest of you, but im sure not going to stand for that.

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Originally Posted by higher4hockey

i can see how some of you are getting a little disillusioned with the war, but people forget so quickly that we were attacked. this generation has 9/11. i sure knew where i was when it happened, just like so many senior citizens remember where they were on december 7th. just because we were attacked by a radical group of cowards instead of the Japanese doesn't mean we're on a fools mission. i'm sure some of you must think I'm crazy thinking that this war is about 9/11. the bottom line is when you're the big dog on the block you're going to get challenged and you better be damn good and ready to defend yourself while at the top. i know i sure wouldnt want to be in Bush's position, he's in an unwinnable situation(not with the war but with the public). sure we could 'cut or losses' and pull out, but what kind of a message would that send to the hajis? 'hey just put some bombs on the side of the road, they sure don't like that' if we turn tail and run the next thing you know there will be hajis putting bombs on interstate 80. i don't know about the rest of you, but im sure not going to stand for that.

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Iraq Attacked the U.S.A.? When?

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Originally Posted by higher4hockey

i can see how some of you are getting a little disillusioned with the war, but people forget so quickly that we were attacked. this generation has 9/11. i sure knew where i was when it happened, just like so many senior citizens remember where they were on december 7th. just because we were attacked by a radical group of cowards instead of the Japanese doesn't mean we're on a fools mission. i'm sure some of you must think I'm crazy thinking that this war is about 9/11. the bottom line is when you're the big dog on the block you're going to get challenged and you better be damn good and ready to defend yourself while at the top. i know i sure wouldnt want to be in Bush's position, he's in an unwinnable situation(not with the war but with the public). sure we could 'cut or losses' and pull out, but what kind of a message would that send to the hajis? 'hey just put some bombs on the side of the road, they sure don't like that' if we turn tail and run the next thing you know there will be hajis putting bombs on interstate 80. i don't know about the rest of you, but im sure not going to stand for that.

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From what i heard prior to this war were WMDs and taking out Saddam. Also that saddam is harboring terrorists. So how do the hija's tie into this? OOOH thats right, after we swept up the Taliban mess in Afghanistan, they all ran over to Iraq to kidney shot us because we thought we'd just be dealing with Iraqi's and Loyal Saddam supportors there, at least thats what the bush admin and adivors thought because we were fighting the terrorists in Afghanistan.

And i totally don't understand what was going on with Pyscho and Poly on there. Psycho, you weren't even on topic here, you were just giving off topic statements. This probably ain't any of my business but i read it and i think there is confusion in what was being said and getting to locked up in emotions or something just brought a bad taste...

so we should all just sit back and wait for the next attack on america and then when thousands more americans die at the hands of terrorists...we'll just invite them to america and sign them up for welfare?


some of the 'i dont give a fuck' attitudes i see today really dissapoint me.

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Originally Posted by higher4hockey

so we should all just sit back and wait for the next attack on america and then when thousands more americans die at the hands of terrorists...we'll just invite them to america and sign them up for welfare?

some of the 'i dont give a fuck' attitudes i see today really dissapoint me.

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To be honest, we could pay welfare for the entire population of Iraq for less than this war is costing. And this war isn't about oil either. All of the oil in Iraq is worth less than the cost of this war. This war is about stupidity and revenge.

The terrorists' attacks were very amateur. All they had to do was hijack a few planes and crash them into stuff. Now, as anyone who has gotten in a plane recently can attest to, airport security is ridiculously tight. We patched that hole.

Politicians are whipping up fear in the populace. They know that if you are afraid, you will give them all the power they want. And somehow, they managed to get half the country scared of some disorganized cultists on the other side of the world. It baffles me.

I feel very powerless writing this. I can give every reason in the world that this war is pointless and beneficial to no one, but it's of no use. As long as there are people who give more weight to their primal fears than they do to reason, we will never learn.

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Originally Posted by higher4hockey

i can see how some of you are getting a little disillusioned with the war, but people forget so quickly that we were attacked. this generation has 9/11. i sure knew where i was when it happened, just like so many senior citizens remember where they were on december 7th. just because we were attacked by a radical group of cowards instead of the Japanese doesn't mean we're on a fools mission. i'm sure some of you must think I'm crazy thinking that this war is about 9/11. the bottom line is when you're the big dog on the block you're going to get challenged and you better be damn good and ready to defend yourself while at the top. i know i sure wouldnt want to be in Bush's position, he's in an unwinnable situation(not with the war but with the public). sure we could 'cut or losses' and pull out, but what kind of a message would that send to the hajis? 'hey just put some bombs on the side of the road, they sure don't like that' if we turn tail and run the next thing you know there will be hajis putting bombs on interstate 80. i don't know about the rest of you, but im sure not going to stand for that.

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Are you in full control of your senses, putting bombs on interstste 80. I thought that was what the homeland security was supposed to prevent. Maybe if we monitored our homeland a little better (closed our borders, monitored our ports, watched our chemical-biological labs and our nuclear facilities, etc.), we wouldn't have so much unnecessary fear. If we had our National Guard at home instead of fighting in some unwinnable war, wouldn't you feel safer. we could put them on the border and watch for terrorists. This war is about profit, period. when will you people wake up?

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Originally Posted by slick-d

yet they had infiltrated our populous and trained for this for years....i wouldn't call that amature...well amature in that they dont have B-2 Bombers and laser guided bombs...

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Amateur in that all it took were a few determined, suicidal people and a few hundred thousand dollars of funding. They didn't even need any training apart from basic English and a crash course (no pun intended) in piloting commercial aircraft.

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Their attack was highly coordinated and worked to the tee....i would hardly call that amature.

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Um, one plane crashed in the middle of a field. Another put a dent in the Pentagon. The other two did what they were supposed to, but it's not like what they were trying to do was particularly difficult.

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Goddam, its so easy for people to get into this country...every month Iraqis and other jihadists are caught crossing the Mexican and Canadian border....how many are unnoticed. How long till they mobilize here and plan another bombing...Maybe the airports are somewhat secure now, but what about all our unguarded ports that carry millions of containers in every day then are distributed around the country...

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Accidents involving horses kill more people than terrorists do. More Iraqis died because of the invasion than were ever killed by terrorists (since 1983 anyway), and you can't tell me they were all bad guys. And more US soldiers have died in Iraq than all the direct casualties of the September 11th attacks combined.

Now, you have to realize that terrorists are called that for a reason. Their goal is not to kill as many Americans as possible. It's to scare the shit out of as many Americans as possible. Congratulations on reacting exactly as they hoped you would.

we could argue this until the cows come home. im a believer in 'when you have them by the balls their hearts and mind will follow'

i think what i think, and you all think what you think.

its funny though, i remember when 9/11 happened, everyone was all gung ho and ready to enlist and out for blood, a few short years later and everyones back to blaming, bitching and not acting.

What's funny is that so many people don't seem to realize that Iraq had absolutely nothing to do with 9/11.

^ We know it didn't. Thats not why we attacked. We just knew that there were more terrorists there that want our heads on a stick. You just cant sit back and let that shit go on. And no, talking to them doesn't do much to help the situation either.

im just gunna peacefully slide in here and ask.

why the offensive stance??? why not a defensive one?

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Originally Posted by Spoken Word

im just gunna peacefully slide in here and ask.

why the offensive stance??? why not a defensive one?

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A defensive stance? Since we're dealing with radical Islam the only way to do this would be first to deport everyone of the Muslim faith because after all...who knows who they are and anyone could be in a sleeper cell. The recent bombing is proof of that with the doctors. Watch out doing this though....here goes a piss fit with every country in the world not to mention the ACLU and every dem in D.C. bitching about us becoming racists.

Then we'd have to completely secure both borders which is an impossible thing to do. Also the shipping yards would need to be contained a hell of alot better than they are now. Leave these people alone and they'll be able to sit back and plan thier asses off with MORE resources than before since we're not blowing the shit out of their stuff or chasing them around.

Your basically looking at complete isolationalism in order to do all this. Now that we've pissed off the ENTIRE world and half of the U.S. citizens where did it get us?

Have a good one!:s4:

If we made highway speed limits 30 miles per hour, we could save tens of thousands of lives per year. But we don't. Because frankly, living in a world where highways speeds were capped at 30 mph would suck.

We need to understand that freedom is preferable to security, and that risks like terrorism are inherent to a free society like ours. Sure, we'll take steps to make things much more difficult for terrorists, but there is no way we can ever make terrorism impossible, and we need to realize this.

Psycho - do you believe that an Iraqi boy whose father was an innocent casualty of an American bomb would be more or less likely to hate the West and become a terrorist? Also, do you think we can subjugate all Muslims through continued war?

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Originally Posted by khronik

Psycho - do you believe that an Iraqi boy whose father was an innocent casualty of an American bomb would be more or less likely to hate the West and become a terrorist? Also, do you think we can subjugate all Muslims through continued war?

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Really hard to say....other outside influences play a part also such as whether or not that "innocent father" was a sympothizer to an insurgent group or if the family was basically being held hostage by these people (due to where they live) and caught in the crossfire because of it. What was the rest of the families feelings regarding the attack and results? To many other factors for a clear yes or no on that one.

ALL Muslims are NOT terrorists! It's time for the moderates to step up like I've stated before. It's time for the Clerics to issue Fatwa's regarding actions of terrorism, etc..... These car bombs, suicide vests, etc...have killed more GOOD Muslims than our bombs. When the moderates step up and demand a cease to the madness from the extremists THEN we can back off and let them take care of business.........till that time I really see no other choice than what we're doing.

Have a good one!:s4:

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Originally Posted by slick-d

...every month Iraqis and other jihadists are caught crossing the Mexican and Canadian border....how many are unnoticed. How long till they mobilize here and plan another bombing...

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Yea this "Canada is a terrorist haven" ....ridiculous!
I can assure you that the Canadian border protects our citizens from terrorists just the same. We use most of the same technology, and are just as concerned, and therefore vigilant.

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Originally Posted by higher4hockey

sure we could 'cut or losses' and pull out, but what kind of a message would that send to the hajis? 'hey just put some bombs on the side of the road, they sure don't like that' if we turn tail and run the next thing you know there will be hajis putting bombs on interstate 80. i don't know about the rest of you, but im sure not going to stand for that.

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Precisely!